# Being Profitable!!!



## cpropertysolutions (Nov 29, 2017)

I am finding that working for Nationals is getting extremely tough to make any money at all. The pricing that is forced upon us for some of what we do is getting out of hand while our expenses continue to climb at a rate that is insane. Although no longer, I was a member of NAMFS for well over 10 years and have heard all of the stories of how everyone came together to be better for the clients and for themselves. I am thinking we worker bees need to collectively begin a move to survive in this industry.

Let me start with winterization's. Are you kidding me? If you are giving the standard 25% to a national your pay is $52.50. One of the biggest risk on our insurance that we process. The time involved to PROPERLY complete even the most simple is an hour. Plus your drive time, materials, labor and just the simple cost of doing business these days. You then write an estimate that takes a lot of time and rarely ever get's approved.... So I have calculated that we are paying the clients an average of $65 for every one that we complete. Not what I call smart business. $200 for a single dry heat system should be a normal price.

Next the standard PPR secondary door re-key. It varies but our average is a net of $37.50. A standard trip charge is $35. This is by far our 2nd most riskful procedure and if you look at the lawsuits that have destroyed companies it is maybe our biggest. All of the nationals write our contract's to protect them from us. Nothing protects us from them hiring people who have no idea what they are doing or from sending us KNOWINGLY into a very bad situation. Add in the fact that most companies now include a 7 to 10 page report to be filled out. By the time we have completed all that is required we are paying them well over $125 to process these. Hopefully they get something approved but more often these days it gets shipped to someone willing to work for nothing and has no insurance or expenses that is required by us. Add in that lately some companies want us to include a full rehab bid that in no way will ever get approved. An initial visit should be a minimum of $250.

Personally I think they are billing for these services and using HUD guidelines against us.

I could go on for ever but I would like to hear from others on what you think and for anyone that might have some answers to please speak up.


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

cpropertysolutions said:


> I am finding that working for Nationals is getting extremely tough to make any money at all. The pricing that is forced upon us for some of what we do is getting out of hand while our expenses continue to climb at a rate that is insane. Although no longer, I was a member of NAMFS for well over 10 years and have heard all of the stories of how everyone came together to be better for the clients and for themselves. I am thinking we worker bees need to collectively begin a move to survive in this industry.
> 
> Let me start with winterization's. Are you kidding me? If you are giving the standard 25% to a national your pay is $52.50. One of the biggest risk on our insurance that we process. The time involved to PROPERLY complete even the most simple is an hour. Plus your drive time, materials, labor and just the simple cost of doing business these days. You then write an estimate that takes a lot of time and rarely ever get's approved.... So I have calculated that we are paying the clients an average of $65 for every one that we complete. Not what I call smart business. $200 for a single dry heat system should be a normal price.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you posted. I have no clue how anyone is making it in P&P these days. We are mostly doing rehabs and REO for realtors. We no longer winterize for less than $250.00 and if there are 3 bathrooms add $75.00 per additional bathroom. 

A lock change is $60.00 per lock $40.00 per padlock. These are our numbers and they do not change. We are at $65.00 minimum for grass cuts now.


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## cpropertysolutions (Nov 29, 2017)

Craigslist Hack said:


> I agree with everything you posted. I have no clue how anyone is making it in P&P these days. We are mostly doing rehabs and REO for realtors. We no longer winterize for less than $250.00 and if there are 3 bathrooms add $75.00 per additional bathroom.
> 
> A lock change is $60.00 per lock $40.00 per padlock. These are our numbers and they do not change. We are at $65.00 minimum for grass cuts now.


Yes lawn cuts have been cut beyond any chance of being profitable. And we can't hire camera crews to drive around with us to take these massive amount of senseless photos.


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## workwithintegrity (Dec 28, 2017)

cpropertysolutions said:


> I am finding that working for Nationals is getting extremely tough to make any money at all. The pricing that is forced upon us for some of what we do is getting out of hand while our expenses continue to climb at a rate that is insane. Although no longer, I was a member of NAMFS for well over 10 years and have heard all of the stories of how everyone came together to be better for the clients and for themselves. I am thinking we worker bees need to collectively begin a move to survive in this industry.
> 
> Let me start with winterization's. Are you kidding me? If you are giving the standard 25% to a national your pay is $52.50. One of the biggest risk on our insurance that we process. The time involved to PROPERLY complete even the most simple is an hour. Plus your drive time, materials, labor and just the simple cost of doing business these days. You then write an estimate that takes a lot of time and rarely ever get's approved.... So I have calculated that we are paying the clients an average of $65 for every one that we complete. Not what I call smart business. $200 for a single dry heat system should be a normal price.
> 
> ...


I Agree totally!! And the companies are telling us THEY believe its only 5 cuyds when they can see the trailer is full and 6 ft tall. I think they bill the Client for the full amount but pay us as little as possible. It has become a huge rip off for working for National companies that I have worked for for 13-14 years. 
Grass cut prices are ridiculous and you cant even find a kid with a mower to complete them for the ridiculous cut prices. 
OR...we complete them for a bid approval of $200 and they change the price AFTER the job is done because they don't think it was that bad after all. National Field Reps used to be one of the best companies to work for. Now they see how much they can NOT pay you to complete the work.


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## cpropertysolutions (Nov 29, 2017)

Yes the cyd battle is fought most every day. We use a box truck mainly and are constantly arguing over how much it will hold. I have to have a math class at least twice a month. I had 1 company finally agree with this but then had the nerve to argue that some air had to exist because we weren't hauling sand. Needless to say I no longer process their crappy Fannie work orders.


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## findfrank (Oct 9, 2012)

*Many BOG Agree*

Many of us Totally agree with everything thing you said . It has become way past ridicules the amount of Pics and work required for the Money Earned. I have been in the business for about 10 years and have tried over the years to unite the BOG workers . It may be impossible as long as there are hacks that are willing to work for peanuts. The amazing thing is that the Nationals also get graded off scorecards and it would only take a week or two of us saying enough is enough to bring them to there knees.. Many of us have seen the winter work slowdown and certainly the reduction in revenue . Many of us could survive 2 weeks without a paycheck unfortunately some cannot., I believe that the only way to save the industry and our family's income as long as we stay in the business is to unite and revolt. Say No to the stupid 2 nd requests for estimate's for free . The B.S. chargebacks the reduction in pricing Ect ., Ect. I would sarcastically love to meet the 10 year old little girl that negotiates the contracts for the Nat's . Sometime they must say No My vendors can't do that for free .:nerd


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## findfrank (Oct 9, 2012)

There is No doubt that the Nat's are billing full price and then cutting your invoice . Read the Huffington Post article from about 3 years ago . They tried to expose the B.S. in the industry it went No where and was No help . I have contacted A realtor on a REO cleanout that was cut almost $2000.00 and found out that the client was billed and the Nat was paid the full amount . There crooks and as long as we let them get away with it they will . 
The only way for it to get better is to unite NAMFS is useless and has been found to be a waste of time and money . They to are greedy and self interested . When the BOG folk get tired of it or Go broke working the butts off it will have to change. Anytime anyone is ready count me in .


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

As long as we're having a good old fashion bitch session, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First, I disagree with any "pricing forced" on anyone.

It is agreed work for agreed pricing. Feel free to say no.

If you got jacked on BATF, well that's your fault. Always say no. Bid...period. Do you go to a restaurant, order a meal, consume it, and then discuss with the owner the value of that meal? Hell no! Agreed product for agreed price. 
Trust is not given, it is earned. 
BATF is a game of trust and no national, regional, or Bob's Preservation is to be trusted...unless they have earned it. 

GTX63 (where is he lately?) said it best.

_"Don't want to be treated like a dog? Stop eating the dog food."_

OK...with that rant off my chest, I will agree the CYDs is a tricky one. I have had better luck overbidding the work and underbidding CYDs. Seems to come out about right and the bids get approved. This way final invoice is not tied so heavily on correct CYD count.(things like brush and tree trimming) If it's a straight trashout, you'll just have to spend a bit of time documenting load and size. Once again, feel free to say no. If you feel it's an easy one for them to screw you on, don't do it. If it isn't profitable, don't freakin do it!

I got a Post and Store/trash out order yesterday. Wells Fargo has an allowable for relocating debris. However, they won't pay to relocate personals to a storage garage, and then reload on a trailer in 30 days and dispose. BS. I said no. It's not profitable for me to sort through a house of full of stuff, rent a storage garage at no profit, make one trip to the garage with personals to undload, return and get trash and go to the dump, return to the garage in 30 days to load personals, return to the dump and dump personals.
Who can do that at $50 CYD?....not to mention the huge liability if you dump something that the owner later says had "extreme value". 

If I'm going to lose money, I'd rather do it from the comfort of my home, sitting on the couch watching reruns of Two and a Half Men.


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## FSMsuperhero (Jul 10, 2017)

Lol, not paying you the full cyd of the load because you have to account for air.. Haha. That made me laugh so hard!


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## workwithintegrity (Dec 28, 2017)

Air? Yep. Got that story also. Or... take the time and man horse break that thing down flat. Or cut that mattress up and stack it. 
I agree you can just say No but National Field Reps will trick you. They give you a "bid approval" for 26 cuyds ( entire house of furniture on curb) when we completed inside, outside and all brush using 2 full trailers, they decided it was only 10 cuyds!!! Yep!!! They do that time after time!! They then say we can work it out but alas, I was only paid for 10 cuyds because we needed to cut up the mattresses and stack them and tear down the huge old box TV. Took us 2 days, 3 guys, 2 trailers, and 4 hrs drive time. For a measley $350 pay out. 
And if you don't take their BATF grass cuts, then you won't get the trash out that could be big. Double edged sword. 
NFR used to be the best. Not so much anymore with "air in the [email protected] and break down all of the items flat. 
And 2 years later sent me a chargeback as soon as I reinstated with them. 
I have been doing this 14 yrs. I make sure we do more than is asked on each job. And of course I do work for other companies that are marginally better at work and payment s and less charge backs. 
I still believe there is money to be made. But it's harder now. And being the good vendor that believes in integrity really doesn't matter


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## cpropertysolutions (Nov 29, 2017)

Well said guys. I have always believed in taking the good with the bad. Do a good job and complete it so that you don't have to go back for free. The bad has just started to eat away at the good far too much. Most all nationals base their pay on HUD guidelines at least when it is in THEIR favor. Obviously most of us agree that this has become a joke. Does anyone have a clue as to how we could have our voice heard on this matter.

And thank you guys for the replies. Enough dialogue will eventually give us some good ideas. IMO


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## rlrolfe (Jan 7, 2018)

Best way to have your voice heard is to BOYCOTT working for preservation companies, AKA "Middle Men" If contractors all got on board who would they get to do the work? Start a list of contractors and grow it, then send out a notice to every bank on the land and let them know that if they want to get the work done, they must work directly with the contractor. I worked in this industry for about a decade when it was profitable and watched it change drastically with the creation of middlemen that control the flow of work and pay. We grew and had 16 crews consisting of 2 men/women out in the field knocking off work orders. There was no haggle when we got paid and employees were eager to go to work. Then the "Middle Men" were born and the pay scale drastically decreased making it hard to keep employee's much less the overhead. Eventually we were forced to close our doors. Me I have held a builders License in Michigan for 30 years and its always been a struggle to compete for jobs. Best thing I did was walk away from this horror story. If you want this industry to be profitable then make a pact with fellow contractors, enough is enough. When the banks send a workload out to a national company that cannot get the work done the day of a reckoning will birth and banks will be happy to do business with the real professionals again!


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## Inspectorgadget (Sep 28, 2015)

Being profitable is getting away from this industry all together, more and more as the economy continues to grow, the less of foreclosures. I’ve been following folks that are expanding services in their own home areas and they are staying profitable verses working for these companies that are rising their so called “ discounts to 25%) why are we paying them to receive the work? And then they the companies turn around are from what I’ve learned from a few they mark up the bids with a 10-30% markup
Before they turn the invoices to their clients. Like a person hired to put a emergency tarp on , the laborer putting nail to tarp typically earns only a fraction of that. The cost is driven up by layers of subcontractors, an expensive flowchart that sometimes produces the sub-sub-sub-sub- subcontractor, known in post-Katrina parlance as a "fifth-tier sub."


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## cpropertysolutions (Nov 29, 2017)

I have the answer now..... How to make a small fortune in this business....

Start with a large one.

As the year is now 2018 many of the companies that we work for has their new guidelines and pricing. Not a single one has moved in our favor. Starting to look like another down sizing year and a search to find something else to do.

I see that many on this site has turned to rehab work. We were doing several a year but that too dried up in 2017. Time to go back to the drawing board....


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Until you stop being an employee...if you're a business you bill for your services based on you your costs not on someone else's business model


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