# Interesting Article, SG is a joke



## GGC

It is a true shame what has happened to this industry. Safeguard is a joke. 


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/03/foreclosure-bank-fraud-abuse_n_2999790.html


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## SwiftRes

Pretty comprehensive article. 

I only wish they would have focused on maybe an example or two of the correct way things should be done. 

If my only experience with that industry was that article, I would concluded that everyone in this business is either a felon or a laid off loan originator.


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## Valley

Its funny that a few company's that i was to do work for,but declined.Are mentioned there also.But i didnt see anything about Buczek Enterprises LLC 





:bangin: :lol: :yawn:


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## GTX63

Valley said:


> Its funny that a few company's that i was to do work for,but declined.Are mentioned there also.But i didnt see anything about Buczek Enterprises LLC


There was a line in the article about Buczek.


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## Cleanupman

Boy this is getting Posted everywhere...I also Posted....
Perhaps the one of the Mods can combine both posts?????
Thanks guys...

GOOD stuff though huh????


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## Valley

GTX63 said:


> There was a line in the article about Buczek.



LOL.I missed it


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## warranpiece

This article makes it look like the people on the ground are the morons and the problem is background checks. Nothing about FNMA setting the standard for price reduction. Nothing about the middle men taking 65% of the dollars allocated for the assets. Nothing about the incentive on the ground being one of cutting corners and illegal practices. 

I am actually pretty disappointed in this. No matter what, there will be one off situations where things go bad. My company has been sued, and we are extremely by the book. It hit a few things, but seemed all over the place and without a point.

I am glad there is some attention, but it lets these guys off way too easy, somehow blames the banks, and lumps in to the casual reader both the contractor on the ground, and the systemic problem with the nationwide servicers/crooks.

I'm disappointed.


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## PropPresPro

warranpiece said:


> This article makes it look like the people on the ground are the morons and the problem is background checks. Nothing about FNMA setting the standard for price reduction. Nothing about the middle men taking 65% of the dollars allocated for the assets. Nothing about the incentive on the ground being one of cutting corners and illegal practices.
> 
> I am actually pretty disappointed in this. No matter what, there will be one off situations where things go bad. My company has been sued, and we are extremely by the book. It hit a few things, but seemed all over the place and without a point.
> 
> I am glad there is some attention, but it lets these guys off way too easy, somehow blames the banks, and lumps in to the casual reader both the contractor on the ground, and the systemic problem with the nationwide servicers/crooks.
> 
> I'm disappointed.


My thoughts exactly.


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## Cleanupman

My understanding is that this is the first in a series of articles...However, I will if no body has objections, send your comments and how you have interpreted things to someone that has a line with Huff Post...
If you don't object to you comment being sent on hit the thanks thing and everyone I see there I'll send your comment on...


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## mtmtnman

warranpiece said:


> This article makes it look like the people on the ground are the morons and the problem is background checks. Nothing about FNMA setting the standard for price reduction. Nothing about the middle men taking 65% of the dollars allocated for the assets. Nothing about the incentive on the ground being one of cutting corners and illegal practices.
> 
> I am actually pretty disappointed in this. No matter what, there will be one off situations where things go bad. My company has been sued, and we are extremely by the book. It hit a few things, but seemed all over the place and without a point.
> 
> I am glad there is some attention, but it lets these guys off way too easy, somehow blames the banks, and lumps in to the casual reader both the contractor on the ground, and the systemic problem with the nationwide servicers/crooks.
> 
> I'm disappointed.




You didn't finish reading. Plenty of info on contractor getting screwed. I'll quote the article:

"
*“There can be two or three companies between you and the bank taking chunks of this money out for doing nothing but shuffling paperwork,” said Wayne Frazier, a general contractor in Maryland.*
*The trickle-down effect often means that banks and taxpayers aren’t getting much for each dollar spent.*

*The federal Department of Housing and Urban Development pays a maximum of $30 for an initial home inspection and $20 for each subsequent inspection, according to agency pricing sheets. *
*Angie Montgomery in Cincinnati said she earns $3 per inspection -- $4 if the job requires that she go inside a house. Out of that, she must pay for gas and car maintenance, along with liability insurance premiums. *She must also contend, she said, with angry homeowners who see her as an agent of the same bank that they are fighting with to avoid foreclosure. She has been yelled at, bitten by dogs and once entered a home where the vindictive former owner had cut a hole in the floor, then covered it with a carpet, she said."


A Craigslist search for "property inspector" turned up dozens of ads looking for people to inspect homes for as little as $1 or $2 per job. For so little money, inspectors often don't bother to get out of their cars, let alone knock on doors, talk to neighbors or check to see if utilities are turned on, experienced contractors said. 
The same market forces that have brought down pay for home inspections have bled into the other types of cleaning and repair work contractors commonly do. 
Buczek Enterprises, a company in Derby, N.Y., advertises that it will pay $30 to mow grass up to a foot high, and on a lawn up to 10,000 square feet, or a little bit bigger than a baseball diamond. Rates that low may not even cover travel time and fuel costs, experienced contractors said. 
Many contractors facing this pay squeeze said they have simply stopped accepting such jobs, concluding that the meager pay is not worth the risk or hassle. 

*
With both oversight and pay at a minimum, the conditions are ripe for those willing to cut corners and commit fraud, industry veterans said.*


Beth Meade, a former AMS employee hired in the fall of 2011, said almost all of her colleagues were temporary workers earning minimum wage and that they received little training."


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## Freddie

Dang I wanna work for safeguard now!!!""


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## warranpiece

mtmtnman said:


> You didn't finish reading. Plenty of info on contractor getting screwed. I'll quote the article:
> 
> "
> *“There can be two or three companies between you and the bank taking chunks of this money out for doing nothing but shuffling paperwork,” said Wayne Frazier, a general contractor in Maryland.*
> *The trickle-down effect often means that banks and taxpayers aren’t getting much for each dollar spent.*
> 
> *The federal Department of Housing and Urban Development pays a maximum of $30 for an initial home inspection and $20 for each subsequent inspection, according to agency pricing sheets. *
> *Angie Montgomery in Cincinnati said she earns $3 per inspection -- $4 if the job requires that she go inside a house. Out of that, she must pay for gas and car maintenance, along with liability insurance premiums. *She must also contend, she said, with angry homeowners who see her as an agent of the same bank that they are fighting with to avoid foreclosure. She has been yelled at, bitten by dogs and once entered a home where the vindictive former owner had cut a hole in the floor, then covered it with a carpet, she said."
> 
> 
> A Craigslist search for "property inspector" turned up dozens of ads looking for people to inspect homes for as little as $1 or $2 per job. For so little money, inspectors often don't bother to get out of their cars, let alone knock on doors, talk to neighbors or check to see if utilities are turned on, experienced contractors said.
> The same market forces that have brought down pay for home inspections have bled into the other types of cleaning and repair work contractors commonly do.
> Buczek Enterprises, a company in Derby, N.Y., advertises that it will pay $30 to mow grass up to a foot high, and on a lawn up to 10,000 square feet, or a little bit bigger than a baseball diamond. Rates that low may not even cover travel time and fuel costs, experienced contractors said.
> Many contractors facing this pay squeeze said they have simply stopped accepting such jobs, concluding that the meager pay is not worth the risk or hassle.
> 
> 
> *With both oversight and pay at a minimum, the conditions are ripe for those willing to cut corners and commit fraud, industry veterans said.*
> 
> 
> Beth Meade, a former AMS employee hired in the fall of 2011, said almost all of her colleagues were temporary workers earning minimum wage and that they received little training."


I read it all. Notice my statement regarding the casual reader. You searched out the 4000 word article for the parts that somehow apply, but the flow of the article will not lead the reader to determine that there is any more of an issue with the national companies. 

Please don't mistake my comment for a complaint. I honor the fact that people who I don't know have essentially been working on my behalf to better my industry. I plan on doing my part big or small. I believe in contributing to our community. However, I think the article falls short of real issues that are culturally engraned, and spends too much time on what makes good reading.....the one off person done wrong by a glitch or error or worse. 

The real question is how can Fannie Mae be ok or expect anything less than illegal immigrants or criminals at their properties if their vendor pays people 16.00 for a maid service? There is a cultural issue here. It easily does not make sense to anyone. Lets have that discussion. Lets talk about Safeguard taking liberties with bids, charging people back months after work is completed, and being the bellwhether for the industry even with rampant abusive practices and a sea of 2500 vendors.

Lets talk about those things!


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## Wannabe

This is article 1 of many more.... I just wish ALL that was said was printed but then again I guess it would have been a BOOK instead of a short story.


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## BPWY

warranpiece said:


> This article makes it look like the people on the ground are the morons and the problem is background checks. Nothing about FNMA setting the standard for price reduction.





warranpiece said:


> The real question is how can Fannie Mae be ok or expect anything less than illegal immigrants or criminals at their properties if their vendor pays people 16.00 for a maid service? There is a cultural issue here.







Maybe I'm wrong here but Fannie hasn't been the one driving down the prices as much as its been all the nationals in a mad dash to the bottom have dropped their bids lower and lower and lower and lower in an effort to run other companies out of biz and to grab a bigger and bigger market share.

When bids come in that are cheaper every year I'm sure that Fannie doesn't mind taking the low bid. 
Gooberment cubicle mindset mental midgets don't make the correlation between the bid price and the ever increasing shoddy jobs done on the properties.
MANY of the properties I visited would have been improved with a can of gas and box of matches. 
Or an excavator and a dump truck.


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## BPWY

Wannabe said:


> This is article 1 of many more.... I just wish ALL that was said was printed but then again I guess it would have been a BOOK instead of a short story.






If the industry AS A WHOLE were to be investigated and audited.................. it'd be about as bad as a WW III.


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## Zoly

I hate this article. I'm sure it's true but I don't think it gives enough credit to people who do things properly. $1-$2 inspections is ridiculous. It should be harder to get into this industry. I hate that people accept the work for such low prices as well.


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## warranpiece

BPWY said:


> Maybe I'm wrong here but Fannie hasn't been the one driving down the prices as much as its been all the nationals in a mad dash to the bottom have dropped their bids lower and lower and lower and lower in an effort to run other companies out of biz and to grab a bigger and bigger market share.
> 
> When bids come in that are cheaper every year I'm sure that Fannie doesn't mind taking the low bid.
> Gooberment cubicle mindset mental midgets don't make the correlation between the bid price and the ever increasing shoddy jobs done on the properties.
> MANY of the properties I visited would have been improved with a can of gas and box of matches.
> Or an excavator and a dump truck.


 
I think to some degree I will respectfully disagree here. Forget about bids for a second. Bids are rarely approved through FNMA. The agents do much of it themselves, or the SAMs contractors.

For preservation, FNMA has set the standard in depreciating service compensation. They keep the nationals in a constant state of fear even though they all comply within 2% of one another, they have taken flat fees that started at almost 2K and slowly moved them down to 1050 or something like that, while now demanding unlimited debris removal, unlimited board ups, spa removal, tree trimming, etc... all under that FF. They drove the industry into a hole. Its a terribly corrupt organization, and they have a God complex. 

This is all under the guise of "getting the best deal for the taxpayer". Well that taxpayer buying a FNMA home is getting literally the crappiest of the crappy they can purchase, while paying market price (if you speak to agents about how they can adjsut and what the appraisal practices are its just hilarious).

So no my man, FNMA has serious culpability, and they are a GSE which should make them accountable for living wages. Sure AMS doesn't have to pay 16 for a maid service, but look at the terrible deal they signed! FAS did the right thing whether forced or not, by walking away. Their peers could have affected change by doing the same, but instead they canibalized each other and continue to tax the vendor.

Its grim, but its reality. I would rather just deal with the reality.


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## mtmtnman

warranpiece said:


> I think to some degree I will respectfully disagree here. Forget about bids for a second. Bids are rarely approved through FNMA. The agents do much of it themselves, or the SAMs contractors.
> 
> For preservation, FNMA has set the standard in depreciating service compensation. They keep the nationals in a constant state of fear even though they all comply within 2% of one another, they have taken flat fees that started at almost 2K and slowly moved them down to 1050 or something like that, while now demanding unlimited debris removal, unlimited board ups, spa removal, tree trimming, etc... all under that FF. They drove the industry into a hole. Its a terribly corrupt organization, and they have a God complex.
> 
> This is all under the guise of "getting the best deal for the taxpayer". Well that taxpayer buying a FNMA home is getting literally the crappiest of the crappy they can purchase, while paying market price (if you speak to agents about how they can adjsut and what the appraisal practices are its just hilarious).
> 
> So no my man, FNMA has serious culpability, and they are a GSE which should make them accountable for living wages. Sure AMS doesn't have to pay 16 for a maid service, but look at the terrible deal they signed! FAS did the right thing whether forced or not, by walking away. Their peers could have affected change by doing the same, but instead they canibalized each other and continue to tax the vendor.
> 
> Its grim, but its reality. I would rather just deal with the reality.



Sounds like you need to get with the agents and forget about the nationals. I get plenty off bid approvals on FNMA properties through my local agents.....


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## P3+

warranpiece said:


> I think to some degree I will respectfully disagree here. Forget about bids for a second. Bids are rarely approved through FNMA. The agents do much of it themselves, or the SAMs contractors.
> 
> For preservation, FNMA has set the standard in depreciating service compensation. They keep the nationals in a constant state of fear even though they all comply within 2% of one another, they have taken flat fees that started at almost 2K and slowly moved them down to 1050 or something like that, while now demanding unlimited debris removal, unlimited board ups, spa removal, tree trimming, etc... all under that FF. They drove the industry into a hole. Its a terribly corrupt organization, and they have a God complex.
> 
> This is all under the guise of "getting the best deal for the taxpayer". Well that taxpayer buying a FNMA home is getting literally the crappiest of the crappy they can purchase, while paying market price (if you speak to agents about how they can adjsut and what the appraisal practices are its just hilarious).
> 
> So no my man, FNMA has serious culpability, and they are a GSE which should make them accountable for living wages. Sure AMS doesn't have to pay 16 for a maid service, but look at the terrible deal they signed! FAS did the right thing whether forced or not, by walking away. Their peers could have affected change by doing the same, but instead they canibalized each other and continue to tax the vendor.
> 
> Its grim, but its reality. I would rather just deal with the reality.



Couldn't agree more warranpiece. Last I heard one of the BIG 4's package was @ $985 FF!!! Less than half in 5 years. 
You hit it square on the head. FNMA is hands down the largest contributor to the rapid decline. 

....and regarding FNMA being a GSE! Davis-Beacon is all I can say. How is that little piece of legislature circumvented?


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## Cleanupman

Valley said:


> Its funny that a few company's that i was to do work for,but declined.Are mentioned there also.But i didnt see anything about Buczek Enterprises LLC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :bangin: :lol: :yawn:


Buczek Enterprises, a company in Derby, N.Y., advertises that it will pay $30 to mow grass up to a foot high, and on a lawn up to 10,000 square feet, or a little bit bigger than a baseball diamond. Rates that low may not even cover travel time and fuel costs, experienced contractors said.


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## Cleanupman

I wonder how long before the follow up are published....
They can go deep and as someone has stated they could do a BOOK with out trying!!!!!

folks should take a look at the NPPG and see if this is something that is right or them....
I do believe they are going to shake things up!!!!


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## Valley

Cleanupman said:


> Buczek Enterprises, a company in Derby, N.Y., advertises that it will pay $30 to mow grass up to a foot high, and on a lawn up to 10,000 square feet, or a little bit bigger than a baseball diamond. Rates that low may not even cover travel time and fuel costs, experienced contractors said.



Yes, we dumped them before we even started. When we first contacted them,they said they had a ton of work in our area (the norm to draw contractors in ) and in 7 months and all they offered was an inspection 125 miles away (one way). I always laugh at the ton of work deal :thumbup:


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## warranpiece

mtmtnman said:


> Sounds like you need to get with the agents and forget about the nationals. I get plenty off bid approvals on FNMA properties through my local agents.....


 
You probably don't live in California.


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## 68W30

Cleanupman said:


> Buczek Enterprises, a company in Derby, N.Y., advertises that it will pay $30 to mow grass up to a foot high, and on a lawn up to 10,000 square feet, or a little bit bigger than a baseball diamond. Rates that low may not even cover travel time and fuel costs, experienced contractors said.


we worked for them last year as fill in stuff they stated they paid weekly , and they did AFTER 60 or more days , my last GC was paid in december they do the , need more pictures 2 weeks after the fact gig and the pictures arent from the same angles gig after being with them for 2 months we got the REVISED pricing list of course lower we just got a call from them asking if we were in this year as they have ton of work my reply was i cant afford to fund your company again this year


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## Cleanupman

Cleanupman said:


> My understanding is that this is the first in a series of articles...However, I will if no body has objections, send your comments and how you have interpreted things to someone that has a line with Huff Post...
> If you don't object to you comment being sent on hit the thanks thing and everyone I see there I'll send your comment on...


Everyone should leave a comment on the article...
represent your company...not everyone is a thief....If every one states something positive about their company one of us is bound to be itnerviewed....


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## BPWY

Interviews lead to questions, questions lead to investigations by authorities. (some times any way)


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## JDRM

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Gypsos

BPWY said:


> Interviews lead to questions, questions lead to investigations by authorities. (some times any way)


I have less than no desire to be noticed by either interviewer or authorities.


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## PrezPros

*Nationals*



BPWY said:


> Maybe I'm wrong here but Fannie hasn't been the one driving down the prices as much as its been all the nationals in a mad dash to the bottom have dropped their bids lower and lower and lower and lower in an effort to run other companies out of biz and to grab a bigger and bigger market share.
> 
> When bids come in that are cheaper every year I'm sure that Fannie doesn't mind taking the low bid.
> Gooberment cubicle mindset mental midgets don't make the correlation between the bid price and the ever increasing shoddy jobs done on the properties.
> MANY of the properties I visited would have been improved with a can of gas and box of matches.
> Or an excavator and a dump truck.


I think this is the mindset of most contractors and the judgement is fair given that those on the ground are getting hurt the most. However, the nationals are not rolling in the money that the ground crews may believe. There has been a very large scale pull back in pricing, OCC regulations, etc. believing the industry is unregulated can't be further from the truth. It was unregulated and that's when everyone was making money happily. Nowadays, there is so much regulation and oversight that everyone is at such an extremely tight margin that you can't make a whole lot doing Preservation work alone. Most contractors should be using Preservation work as an addendum to other higher margin work. Preservation = high volume low margin as it stands. I hope the industry turns around and recognizes this produces low quality work like anyone else, but that comes straight from the top, not from the nationals.


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## Cleanupman

PrezPros said:


> I think this is the mindset of most contractors and the judgement is fair given that those on the ground are getting hurt the most. However, the nationals are not rolling in the money that the ground crews may believe. There has been a very large scale pull back in pricing, OCC regulations, etc. believing the industry is unregulated can't be further from the truth. It was unregulated and that's when everyone was making money happily. Nowadays, there is so much regulation and oversight that everyone is at such an extremely tight margin that you can't make a whole lot doing Preservation work alone. Most contractors should be using Preservation work as an addendum to other higher margin work. Preservation = high volume low margin as it stands. I hope the industry turns around and recognizes this produces low quality work like anyone else, but that comes straight from the top, not from the nationals.


What have you bumped your head on?????
LPS is being investigated for double billing
SG has a contract that basically puts a ring in your nose and walks you around the arena.
People are getting back charged for a lawn cut two years after the property sells...I can go on and on....there is no oversight nor regulation in this UNKNOWN industry. Have the people are performing service unpropperly licensed and insured...and working for less than minimum wage...The lowest profit margin for a national was 75 million in 2011....and was FAS...AFTER they lost the FNMA contract in the big 7....don't know where you get your itell but sure hope you didn't pay for it cuzz it is bad....
If the nationals are hurting as you claim they are then why are they telling people to shut up in these type of forums???
Why are they demanding you download tracking software on your mobile devices then demanding you sign disclosures and confidentiality clauses that say "no testing"?????
Why do you think the HUD 3.6 contract has been recalled????
Oversite and regulation??? MOLD...BLEACH ...KILZ...YEAH RIGHT GIVE ME A BREAK

They are making a killing on the backs of the people that are floating the industry with their no interest credit and resources....


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## PrezPros

Cleanupman said:


> What have you bumped your head on?????
> LPS is being investigated for double billing
> SG has a contract that basically puts a ring in your nose and walks you around the arena.
> People are getting back charged for a lawn cut two years after the property sells...I can go on and on....there is no oversight nor regulation in this UNKNOWN industry. Have the people are performing service unpropperly licensed and insured...and working for less than minimum wage...The lowest profit margin for a national was 75 million in 2011....and was FAS...AFTER they lost the FNMA contract in the big 7....don't know where you get your itell but sure hope you didn't pay for it cuzz it is bad....
> If the nationals are hurting as you claim they are then why are they telling people to shut up in these type of forums???
> Why are they demanding you download tracking software on your mobile devices then demanding you sign disclosures and confidentiality clauses that say "no testing"?????
> Why do you think the HUD 3.6 contract has been recalled????
> Oversite and regulation??? MOLD...BLEACH ...KILZ...YEAH RIGHT GIVE ME A BREAK
> 
> They are making a killing on the backs of the people that are floating the industry with their no interest credit and resources....


You've brought up many different issues which makes it impossible to reply to this without a 10 page document . I'll hit a couple points. You mention 2011 profits which is two years old. I said things used to be different, it was different then. Plus profit margins are a percentage figure, not a dollar figure. And I can promise you not all the major nationals made a $75 million profit in 2011. I don't know where those numbers come from but they are not from balance sheets. 

If any national is charging back from lawns two years prior, then someone should file suit. That is not an issue of oversight, that's downright illegal. I agree that shouldn't be done, but no matter how much oversight exists, someone can do something illegal. The difference is what's done about it. If that actually happened, why has no suit been filed? Single homeowners are battling banks as big as HSBC and BOA for entire mortgages so surely so some would sue if that happened. I think there is some disinformation from some contractors that don't like nationals at times. Rightfully so, but we have to separate fact from bias. 

Double billing is only caught if there is oversight. It's very possible this is just a mistake. Mistakes happen with or without oversight... It's oversight that catches the mistakes or fraud. 

If people are performing services without insurance, that's fraudulent. Those contractors should be arrested. That's a lose/lose situation though. Everyone wants more oversight but then everyone complains when the banks or the nationals want extra paperwork, background checks, etc. I don't like the extra oversight because I trust myself, but I understand why it exists. It exists because those on the ground have cheated for a long time and the banks can't afford to risk it. That's when margins tighten... Because of the cheaters.


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## PrezPros

In addition, SGs practice of mobile applications is to verify photo locations. Trust me, they are the big one that has tightened margins the most, so I'm not a friend of theirs more than anyone else, but what are they going to do by tracking you?? They have no desire to track you as a vendor. They need to GPS coordinates if photos as demanded by the client. I think there are better ways to do this and I'm with you on that, but that's really all it is.


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## BPWY

PrezPros your reality sure is not what myself and all of my friends have personal experience in. 


My experiences are firmly in line with what Cleanup just posted, not the claims of a highly regulated industry that you are working in.
If you'd be so kind please name a single gov regulatory agency that is keeping a close watch on whats going on.
Like he mentioned it sure aint the EPA or health industry regulating the improper application of bleach and kilz for mold remediation.


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## STARBABY

PrezPros said:


> In addition, SGs practice of mobile applications is to verify photo locations. Trust me, they are the big one that has tightened margins the most, so I'm not a friend of theirs more than anyone else, but what are they going to do by tracking you?? They have no desire to track you as a vendor. They need to GPS coordinates if photos as demanded by the client. I think there are better ways to do this and I'm with you on that, but that's really all it is.


I find it very hard to believe that the bank even look at the photos!


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## BPWY

STARBABY said:


> I find it very hard to believe that the bank even look at the photos!







I've said that repeatedly for years. 


If the bank was really looking at what the nationals/regionals were doing thing would not be in the state they have been for AT LEAST the last 4 years.


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## wmhlc

STARBABY said:


> I find it very hard to believe that the bank even look at the photos!


I can say with 100% confidence hud looks at the photos. I'm a claims conctractor and hud sends me photos of p&p contractors work checking estimates and scopes all the time. Trust me they look at them. I have completed hundreds of these for them.


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## Gypsos

PrezPros said:


> You've brought up many different issues which makes it impossible to reply to this without a 10 page document . I'll hit a couple points. You mention 2011 profits which is two years old. I said things used to be different, it was different then. Plus profit margins are a percentage figure, not a dollar figure. And I can promise you not all the major nationals made a $75 million profit in 2011. I don't know where those numbers come from but they are not from balance sheets.
> 
> If any national is charging back from lawns two years prior, then someone should file suit. That is not an issue of oversight, that's downright illegal. I agree that shouldn't be done, but no matter how much oversight exists, someone can do something illegal. The difference is what's done about it. If that actually happened, why has no suit been filed? Single homeowners are battling banks as big as HSBC and BOA for entire mortgages so surely so some would sue if that happened. I think there is some disinformation from some contractors that don't like nationals at times. Rightfully so, but we have to separate fact from bias.
> 
> Double billing is only caught if there is oversight. It's very possible this is just a mistake. Mistakes happen with or without oversight... It's oversight that catches the mistakes or fraud.
> 
> If people are performing services without insurance, that's fraudulent. Those contractors should be arrested. That's a lose/lose situation though. Everyone wants more oversight but then everyone complains when the banks or the nationals want extra paperwork, background checks, etc. I don't like the extra oversight because I trust myself, but I understand why it exists. It exists because those on the ground have cheated for a long time and the banks can't afford to risk it. That's when margins tighten... Because of the cheaters.


That's it. You pissed me off. 

Let me see if I got this right. A company back charges me $40 for a lawn cut from two years ago and I rush out and drop $10,000 on the table to sue them to keep my $40? 

Single homeowners are fighting because they got tens of thousands of dollars on the line and there are government agencies helping them and law firms working to get paid when/if they win. 

Us guys out here mowing grass and hauling trash have no one to help us. 

Just like the director of construction for ABC liquor told me when I filed a lien for the $13,000 they owed me. "We checked you out. You cannot afford to sue us so we do not have to pay you." And they never gave me a dime. And the only attorney I could find willing to take the case wanted $9,000 up front to get started with no promises of a win. 

The fact is you can make a living doing this. A subsistence living that keeps the lights on and food on the table. But you will work as hard as you can all day every day and you will find ways to cut corners and still deliver a good product. 

The simple truth is that at the end of the day there is no time or money for lawsuits.

People without insurance should be arrested for what? In many places insurance is not required by law to do P&P work so they are not committing fraud, they are just not covering their butts. People are working without insurance because they cannot afford it. I have added special coverage that covers my subs if they do not have insurance just in case one of them were to let their policy lapse while working for me.

We complain when more paperwork, background checks, etc. are added for free. It increases our overhead without increasing our compensation. I have no problem with a background check that you pay for. You want me to fill out two more forms at each service? No problem as long as we up the price for each service to cover the extra processing time and the cost of paper and ink to print them. 

And those of us on the ground have cheated for a long time and the banks cannot afford to risk it? Let me tell you a thing or two about banks. They do not take risks, ever. Try and take out a line of credit to finance a construction project and you will see this first hand. You need $50,000. No problem. Just put $50,000 in a secure account with practically nothing for interest that you cannot touch for any reason for the next five years and we will loan you $50,000 for the next six months at the low low rate of 10%. 

Please tell me exactly what the bank is risking by paying me a rate that allows me to have a life and a paycheck because right now I can have one or the other with the pittance they pay. 

We did not make the industry what it is. The banks did. 

After reading your post and seeing how you think this is all the fault of the boots on the ground guys I can only wonder which Bank or National you work for.


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## BPWY

Gypsos said:


> After reading your post and seeing how you think this is all the fault of the boots on the ground guys I can only wonder which Bank or National you work for.





Take a WAG, the guy is from Tampa FL.


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## PrezPros

Gypsos said:


> That's it. You pissed me off.
> 
> Let me see if I got this right. A company back charges me $40 for a lawn cut from two years ago and I rush out and drop $10,000 on the table to sue them to keep my $40?
> 
> Single homeowners are fighting because they got tens of thousands of dollars on the line and there are government agencies helping them and law firms working to get paid when/if they win.
> 
> Us guys out here mowing grass and hauling trash have no one to help us.
> 
> Just like the director of construction for ABC liquor told me when I filed a lien for the $13,000 they owed me. "We checked you out. You cannot afford to sue us so we do not have to pay you." And they never gave me a dime. And the only attorney I could find willing to take the case wanted $9,000 up front to get started with no promises of a win.
> 
> The fact is you can make a living doing this. A subsistence living that keeps the lights on and food on the table. But you will work as hard as you can all day every day and you will find ways to cut corners and still deliver a good product.
> 
> The simple truth is that at the end of the day there is no time or money for lawsuits.
> 
> People without insurance should be arrested for what? In many places insurance is not required by law to do P&P work so they are not committing fraud, they are just not covering their butts. People are working without insurance because they cannot afford it. I have added special coverage that covers my subs if they do not have insurance just in case one of them were to let their policy lapse while working for me.
> 
> We complain when more paperwork, background checks, etc. are added for free. It increases our overhead without increasing our compensation. I have no problem with a background check that you pay for. You want me to fill out two more forms at each service? No problem as long as we up the price for each service to cover the extra processing time and the cost of paper and ink to print them.
> 
> And those of us on the ground have cheated for a long time and the banks cannot afford to risk it? Let me tell you a thing or two about banks. They do not take risks, ever. Try and take out a line of credit to finance a construction project and you will see this first hand. You need $50,000. No problem. Just put $50,000 in a secure account with practically nothing for interest that you cannot touch for any reason for the next five years and we will loan you $50,000 for the next six months at the low low rate of 10%.
> 
> Please tell me exactly what the bank is risking by paying me a rate that allows me to have a life and a paycheck because right now I can have one or the other with the pittance they pay.
> 
> We did not make the industry what it is. The banks did.
> 
> After reading your post and seeing how you think this is all the fault of the boots on the ground guys I can only wonder which Bank or National you work for.


Assumptions that I work for a national or bank are not going to help. That's the conspiracy theory that many people use on these boards if someone even remotely disagrees. You have jumped to conclusions that I never even stated then threw me in a category of being some kind of spy. If you believe I work for a national or bank, then why would you attack me? Is that what's in your best interest? Everyone here asks why the nationals don't reply on these boards and this is why... They'd just get attacked from the start. I can only say I don't blame them, it's not worth it since they will never be able to make a point (valid or not) without the whole forum rising up with pitch forks. 

And yes, I am from Tampa. So, the question MUST be, do I work for MCS or Cyprexx? Or maybe I work from home for SG. I am only posting to make the points that I think are often overlooked here. I'm not claiming the world is 100% fair, I'm just saying that there is a lot of judgement and assumptions made that may not really be the case. When there is real fraud, then I am on board with you. If a national charges us back with no reason why, then I'm with you. I just know every "chargeback" I've received has been in the form of going back and doing it right. I've never had a deduction from a check. Sometimes when I go back I feel everything is done to standard and I may have to argue my point, but in the end I do always get my checks and am treated fairly. You have to remember its the bank's broker that's sending you back out, not the national. 

I also realize that as boots on the ground, we do feel like we are repressed. I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten home and felt under appreciated when I'm uploading photos until 10PM when the national desk people have already gone home and in the end, I am paid a meager sum to do so. However, I own my own business and I like the freedom. Though I do rely on the nationals for a lot of my work, I would never let them drive me bankrupt. And it's not in their interest to drive me bankrupt. If everyone isn't making some money, everyone loses. 

All I'm saying is the nationals aren't making the millions and millions that many think. And I can say that because I do know some people personally since I am based in Tampa. But when I call up my coordinator, I promise you that she doesn't give a crap who I know or what my opinion is... I'm on a flat fee like most others. And if a broker calls up an says I did a bad job, I have to make the same trips back out as everyone else. So, I do know what you are going through. I do completely underdtand your points. I just think things aren't as "fraudulent" and unfair as some others do. If you want me to keep my opinions to myself, then just say so, but rember that when someone posts asking why the nationals don't reply to anything on here.


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## PrezPros

Oh, and for $40, you go to small claims court. $150 fee. Given, for $40 that's still not worth it, but I don't think most people are really angry over a one time $40 back charge even if it does occur. I think most people are angry when it happens multiple times. When you see $1000 back charged over the course of a year, then you get upset and the $150 small claims few is worth it. 

Just remember that it's unfair when you own a china shop and a customer comes in and breaks a $250 piece. You have to cover it. And though you may really hate the fact that you did nothing wrong but have to pay that $250, it still happens. It's when that happens constantly that you have to make real decisions and in this case, that's what I mean by filing suit.


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## PrezPros

BPWY said:


> Take a WAG, the guy is from Tampa FL.


Btw, how did you know that?


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## Cleanupman

PrezPros said:


> Assumptions that I work for a national or bank are not going to help. That's the conspiracy theory that many people use on these boards if someone even remotely disagrees. You have jumped to conclusions that I never even stated then threw me in a category of being some kind of spy. If you believe I work for a national or bank, then why would you attack me? Is that what's in your best interest? Everyone here asks why the nationals don't reply on these boards and this is why... They'd just get attacked from the start. I can only say I don't blame them, it's not worth it since they will never be able to make a point (valid or not) without the whole forum rising up with pitch forks.
> 
> And yes, I am from Tampa. So, the question MUST be, do I work for MCS or Cyprexx? Or maybe I work from home for SG. I am only posting to make the points that I think are often overlooked here. I'm not claiming the world is 100% fair, I'm just saying that there is a lot of judgement and assumptions made that may not really be the case. When there is real fraud, then I am on board with you. If a national charges us back with no reason why, then I'm with you. I just know every "chargeback" I've received has been in the form of going back and doing it right. I've never had a deduction from a check. Sometimes when I go back I feel everything is done to standard and I may have to argue my point, but in the end I do always get my checks and am treated fairly. You have to remember its the bank's broker that's sending you back out, not the national.
> 
> I also realize that as boots on the ground, we do feel like we are repressed. I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten home and felt under appreciated when I'm uploading photos until 10PM when the national desk people have already gone home and in the end, I am paid a meager sum to do so. However, I own my own business and I like the freedom. Though I do rely on the nationals for a lot of my work, I would never let them drive me bankrupt. And it's not in their interest to drive me bankrupt. If everyone isn't making some money, everyone loses.
> 
> All I'm saying is the nationals aren't making the millions and millions that many think. And I can say that because I do know some people personally since I am based in Tampa. But when I call up my coordinator, I promise you that she doesn't give a crap who I know or what my opinion is... I'm on a flat fee like most others. And if a broker calls up an says I did a bad job, I have to make the same trips back out as everyone else. So, I do know what you are going through. I do completely underdtand your points. I just think things aren't as "fraudulent" and unfair as some others do. If you want me to keep my opinions to myself, then just say so, but rember that when someone posts asking why the nationals don't reply to anything on here.


All this from someone with a blank profile.....FAS is traded on the NYSE....SG donated 1.5 million to a project in the Jewish community section of... somewhere in NYC, I think it was Long Island, you don't donate that much unless it is less than 10% of profits...The numbers I got on FAS were from the NYSE.....You have a very warped sense of knowledge in this industry...PKMG is currently billing $303 twice a month for a service they are paying the BOTG 40 bucks for..their current contract is over 4 TRILLION DOLLARS ...LPS is currently under a DOJ investigation for double billing...Contractors have been forced to provide a PCR FREE with a lawn cut...I'm sorry since when did mowing a lawn have anything to do with the commode inside the house???? There is some evidence that the nationals are selling these photos that we are being forced to provide ...100-150 mind you for $1,50 each while you are paid squat for them...
So please step out from behind the curtain a show your self....with all your all mighty know-it-all information...where you have come up with your theories baffles me....
Here is my theory...you developed them after bumping your head on a Budweiser truck then proceeded to drink up the mess....
There is no oversight in this industry or what has happened would not be happening....for you to state otherwise, you work for somebody and you're here trying to extract information so your cohorts can make game plans to counter the attacks that are about to be made in this industry by the BTOG folks....
One thing you can not do is get a request from the secretary of the HUD office for a face to face to express grievances on behalf of the Contractors....One of us has....so Mr. know-it-all go figure out who it is.....

And before you spew your driffle why don't you do like other business people do that wish to promote their businesses and step out from behind the curtain and create a legitimate profile....

On a side note.....Happy Mothers day to all the Mothers out there that make day to day life tolerable!!!!!! Enjoy your day ladies!!!!!!


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## hammerhead

word of advise Prez. Dont poke the bear. He might bite back


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## PropPresPro

PrezPros said:


> Btw, how did you know that?


Nothing you do online is anonymous. The management of this or any other internet forum have access to information,. . .:whistling2:

"That's all I got to say about that. . ."


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## Gypsos

PrezPros said:


> Assumptions that I work for a national or bank are not going to help. That's the conspiracy theory that many people use on these boards if someone even remotely disagrees. You have jumped to conclusions that I never even stated then threw me in a category of being some kind of spy. If you believe I work for a national or bank, then why would you attack me? Is that what's in your best interest? Everyone here asks why the nationals don't reply on these boards and this is why... They'd just get attacked from the start. I can only say I don't blame them, it's not worth it since they will never be able to make a point (valid or not) without the whole forum rising up with pitch forks.
> 
> And yes, I am from Tampa. So, the question MUST be, do I work for MCS or Cyprexx? Or maybe I work from home for SG. I am only posting to make the points that I think are often overlooked here. I'm not claiming the world is 100% fair, I'm just saying that there is a lot of judgement and assumptions made that may not really be the case. When there is real fraud, then I am on board with you. If a national charges us back with no reason why, then I'm with you. I just know every "chargeback" I've received has been in the form of going back and doing it right. I've never had a deduction from a check. Sometimes when I go back I feel everything is done to standard and I may have to argue my point, but in the end I do always get my checks and am treated fairly. You have to remember its the bank's broker that's sending you back out, not the national.
> 
> I also realize that as boots on the ground, we do feel like we are repressed. I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten home and felt under appreciated when I'm uploading photos until 10PM when the national desk people have already gone home and in the end, I am paid a meager sum to do so. However, I own my own business and I like the freedom. Though I do rely on the nationals for a lot of my work, I would never let them drive me bankrupt. And it's not in their interest to drive me bankrupt. If everyone isn't making some money, everyone loses.
> 
> All I'm saying is the nationals aren't making the millions and millions that many think. And I can say that because I do know some people personally since I am based in Tampa. But when I call up my coordinator, I promise you that she doesn't give a crap who I know or what my opinion is... I'm on a flat fee like most others. And if a broker calls up an says I did a bad job, I have to make the same trips back out as everyone else. So, I do know what you are going through. I do completely underdtand your points. I just think things aren't as "fraudulent" and unfair as some others do. If you want me to keep my opinions to myself, then just say so, but rember that when someone posts asking why the nationals don't reply to anything on here.


A lot of the reason many people come on this forum is to have a place to vent where there are people who understand what we go through and by reading these posts we know we are not alone in being treated unfairly by many of the national and regional property management companies out there. In fact that is why we are no longer a part of Contractor Talk. Those who have never worked in the P&P field simply do not have a clue what we do, how we do it and why we do it. And I really hate your allegations that P&P contractors are committing fraud, cheating our customers and we are making unfounded accusations of ridiculous back charges. 

The reason it is assumed you work for a national or a bank is your strong defense of them and your comments that appear to be attacks on the contractors. The fact is you do not talk like a contractor. I have seen a few national and regional companies post here and elsewhere and try and defend their positions. And they universally get flamed to the point they quit responding. Part of that is because they do not answer the tough questions put to them. First and foremost is always about pricing and their requests to perform illegal or unethical work. 

Case in point, I read a bunch of talk about one national about a year ago. It was mostly good. They paid well and on time and their contract was actually balanced with protections for them and the vendor. When I contacted them I found out they demanded I perform all sorts of work I was not licensed for and could not legally do. I told them this and was told that the other vendors do it so I could too. Then I got the “or else” speech and I never spoke them again. They simply would not hear of the law and what I could and could not legally perform. They did not care. As long as the work gets done that is all that matters to them. This is very common and puts contractors on the defensive. The fastest way to for a coordinator to get an earful from me is to tell me I have to do something. 

Personally I have no clue how much profit the various nationals are making. But I do know this. Over the last three years my total income for P&P work has dropped by about $8,000 per year for the same volume. The math is simple. They have thousands of vendors and at $8,000 less for each vendor equals tens of millions more dollars they are not paying out. Less out equals more profit. Tens of millions more profit. Whether that is tens of millions for one company or spread out over ten of them is irrelevant. To me it means the same thing, less money in my pocket at the end of the day that I have to feed my family and grow my business. 

When the prices are dropped they are not negotiated, I am not consulted and we have no discussions. I get an email with a list of the new prices and that is it. Take it or leave it and quit. We feel we are repressed for this very reason. We are not included. We are dictated to with an “or else” at the end. 

I have been asked on two occasions by nationals to take over my entire coverage area as a regional. They offered to basically hand me 250+ properties to start and give me more as time passed. The first time I felt I was not big enough or experienced enough to do this and passed. By the second time it was offered my service fees had been cut so much that I am not able to hire and pay the staff necessary to do this. I told them I would do it if I could come to their office and negotiate a pay scale and contract specific to this type of an arrangement. I never heard back. It goes back to the nationals not having anyone in the company with the authority to negotiate anything. 


I have only ever gotten one chargeback. It was for $75 and it was because of the broker. The company even agreed with this, but I still got the chargeback. The fact is she would have failed the house if the Lord God Almighty himself had cleaned it. I have had many dealings with her since then and she is a vicious and sarcastic witch. But Karma is funny. She reported me directly to the bank for not cleaning a house that I was working on. Funny thing was I had completed the job the day before she said she inspected it. She had a lot of questions to answer about how she was unable to see that the house had been cleaned and now she leaves me alone. 

I do not want you to keep your options to yourself. Just know that if I do not agree with you I will say so. I would expect the same from you.


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## PrezPros

Gypsos said:


> A lot of the reason many people come on this forum is to have a place to vent where there are people who understand what we go through and by reading these posts we know we are not alone in being treated unfairly by many of the national and regional property management companies out there. In fact that is why we are no longer a part of Contractor Talk. Those who have never worked in the P&P field simply do not have a clue what we do, how we do it and why we do it. And I really hate your allegations that P&P contractors are committing fraud, cheating our customers and we are making unfounded accusations of ridiculous back charges.
> 
> The reason it is assumed you work for a national or a bank is your strong defense of them and your comments that appear to be attacks on the contractors. The fact is you do not talk like a contractor. I have seen a few national and regional companies post here and elsewhere and try and defend their positions. And they universally get flamed to the point they quit responding. Part of that is because they do not answer the tough questions put to them. First and foremost is always about pricing and their requests to perform illegal or unethical work.
> 
> Case in point, I read a bunch of talk about one national about a year ago. It was mostly good. They paid well and on time and their contract was actually balanced with protections for them and the vendor. When I contacted them I found out they demanded I perform all sorts of work I was not licensed for and could not legally do. I told them this and was told that the other vendors do it so I could too. Then I got the “or else” speech and I never spoke them again. They simply would not hear of the law and what I could and could not legally perform. They did not care. As long as the work gets done that is all that matters to them. This is very common and puts contractors on the defensive. The fastest way to for a coordinator to get an earful from me is to tell me I have to do something.
> 
> Personally I have no clue how much profit the various nationals are making. But I do know this. Over the last three years my total income for P&P work has dropped by about $8,000 per year for the same volume. The math is simple. They have thousands of vendors and at $8,000 less for each vendor equals tens of millions more dollars they are not paying out. Less out equals more profit. Tens of millions more profit. Whether that is tens of millions for one company or spread out over ten of them is irrelevant. To me it means the same thing, less money in my pocket at the end of the day that I have to feed my family and grow my business.
> 
> When the prices are dropped they are not negotiated, I am not consulted and we have no discussions. I get an email with a list of the new prices and that is it. Take it or leave it and quit. We feel we are repressed for this very reason. We are not included. We are dictated to with an “or else” at the end.
> 
> I have been asked on two occasions by nationals to take over my entire coverage area as a regional. They offered to basically hand me 250+ properties to start and give me more as time passed. The first time I felt I was not big enough or experienced enough to do this and passed. By the second time it was offered my service fees had been cut so much that I am not able to hire and pay the staff necessary to do this. I told them I would do it if I could come to their office and negotiate a pay scale and contract specific to this type of an arrangement. I never heard back. It goes back to the nationals not having anyone in the company with the authority to negotiate anything.
> 
> 
> I have only ever gotten one chargeback. It was for $75 and it was because of the broker. The company even agreed with this, but I still got the chargeback. The fact is she would have failed the house if the Lord God Almighty himself had cleaned it. I have had many dealings with her since then and she is a vicious and sarcastic witch. But Karma is funny. She reported me directly to the bank for not cleaning a house that I was working on. Funny thing was I had completed the job the day before she said she inspected it. She had a lot of questions to answer about how she was unable to see that the house had been cleaned and now she leaves me alone.
> 
> I do not want you to keep your options to yourself. Just know that if I do not agree with you I will say so. I would expect the same from you.


Sorry I haven't responded. I've been busy lately. I will not respond to other posts. Not because Of the ridiculous notion that I'm some kind of National spy, but because it's pointless to rebut on issues that aren't true to begin with. I can defend only what I can prove. If there is going to be a conspiracy theory regarding what I do for a living, then let it be so. This is the only post that has semblance of open dialog.

One thing I will mention is that someone posted that where I'm from is found anywhere - I'm on the internet. You are correct... my IP address is clearly known by the moderators. I just don't want to hear people complaining that the big nationals are spying on these forums when the forum admins are spying on the members. Seems a bit hypocritical is all I was trying to say. I do work in central west Florida, I do have a good relationship with the nationals in the area (as I think any good business person would), and I won't post in my profile where I work just as everyone else on here has stated they won't. However, I'm not necessarily afraid nationals are spying on my words (since I'm admittedly not bashing them), I just don't feel the need to have anyone who may not like my opinions contacting me. If this causes conspiracy theories to abound, so be it. No loss to me - that's a judgment you have the right to make. I just feel it's extremely presumptuous.

As to Gypsos, I wanted to comment on a few things. I understand venting - I'm not trying to criticize for that. I'm giving a different point of view since I don't see it much here. I did own my own business (larger than the one I own now obviously) for a while and it was successful. I have sold that company and now have a smaller operation. I just understand the issues that a larger company goes through and the assumptions that people make about them. I don't know everything I'm saying as 100% fact - some of it is opinion. I just believe that there is a lot of misplaced criticism here... I could be wrong sometimes. But I have been immediately jumped on for making two posts here because some people disagree. That's my biggest argument - debate is not welcome here. If someone happens to think a national isn't evil, they are automatically assumed to work for the national. I haven't even made any comments I can think of that praise the nationals... I'm just saying they are in business too and we should understand that.

If I've flamed a contractor, I will apologize, but I don't believe I have. I have not suggested that contractors as a whole commit fraud. I have suggested that SOME do. I have seen FAR more statements on here suggestions the nationals commit fraud. And again, I'm sure SOME do. Again, the flaming is one sided in my opinion. I don't believe I've flamed anyone. The one person who took it that way I apologized to (and my statement was taken out of context as I believe everything I'm saying is). I'm not apologizing for an opinion, however. If not hating the nationals I do work for is equivalent to me sounding like a national, then so be it. I just don't feel the need to hate those who give me business or who provide the welfare of my company. Given, it's not high margin work, but it is work. And I do it to fill in where I don't have higher margin work to do as I've said before. 

If a national asks me to perform work that is illegal to perform, by ALL means, I agree with you. I haven't had that happen to me, but I'm sure it has happened to others. I believe you are pretty fair about this and I would do the same thing in your situation. This is the case I bring up lawsuit talk. I would be the first to jump on someone's side if there is a legitimate case and the first to help bring someone down. I just disagree that most of the cases I see on here really even exist. I think there is so much negativity here that some of the stuff I read is not true to begin with. I will not, however, accuse an individual of that. It's not my place to do so, but I do think there are cases on here of that since it is such a one sided forum. Maybe if the nationals did speak up more it would be less one-sided, but I don't think they are interested in being flamed (heck, I've been flamed for just the accusation with no evidence of the sort).

My total profits have diminished as well, so I feel your pain. It has been a more difficult year. The point I was making (and I tried to be clear about it) was that many are looking at one side of the equation. You cannot just say since there is less pay to the vendors that profits automatically increase with the nationals. What if there is less pay to the nationals from the banks as well? And even if less isn't paid out to the nationals, what if volume is decreased to the nationals? Their main cost has to be labor, so if they don't decrease staff in their own company their profit goes down. So we can suggest they eliminate positions, but then those people are upset for losing their jobs just like people here are upset for losing pay. There is no golden goose here like people think. I am privy to bits of information, and no I won't give sources (again, anyone has the right to believe what they want) but contracts to the nationals have fallen which is why contracts for the BOTG have fallen. Also, just because a company is publically traded doesn't mean that profit margins have increased. FNMA is publically traded and lost billions year over year before this past year. My guess would be (and it's only a guess, so disagreeing is fine, but flaming this would be pointless) that not a single national has more money in the bank at the end of 2012 than at the end of 2011 based on the major reduction in REO properties in 2012.

You next point I understand and I'm in the same boat. I'm not asked - I have to suck it up. It's difficult to stick up for them with this. The only thing I can say is that you have the right to leave - it's supply and demand. I only say this not to be on the side of nationals, but when I had my other business, I had to make these same types of decisions, and sometimes I did have my vendors leave. But if I had to reduce what I paid, I knew I risked losing them. If too many leave, then my business was in trouble. This is supply and demand and it's a harsh world - I can't really say much more than that on the topic.

And I have honestly never been charged back, but I have been threatened with a few. And surely I will at some point since I have had a few BSO issues, but I have always come back and fixed them. And I absolutely agree that some of it is complete BS. How can I keep a house clean when people are going in and tracking mud through the house every day and I'm only getting paid for a sales clean once a month? How can I prevent the kid down the street from spray painting a gang sign on the fence a day after I came in did the lawn cut but not knowing an inspection would take place the next day. I am on board with these concerns, but I also know that these are the exception. I believe that things average out, but only if you get enough volume. If you can't get the volume within a reasonable proximity to average things out, then you may not be in the right area for this business - I can't really say much more than that. 

And trust me, I don't keep my opinions to myself and would never expect you to  I just feel that I shouldn't be judged for my opinions as I haven't done so to anyone else. I have not made a single derogatory comment about anyone and don't plan to do so, but I have had many made against me. This is where my frustration comes from. If there are any direct questions (and not regarding my personal life) I'm willing to give my opinion how I see it, but I haven't received many direct questions, mostly just insults. But I do appreciate the fact that you have the tact and intelligence to have a fair debate over the subjects.


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## LoveToMow

*Grass cut rip offs*

Good dialogue.....


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