# Recognizing good work vs. Bad work



## Craigslist Hack

As I read this board lately I can't help but notice many of you are either desperate, uneducated, or simply not business people. Many of you are doing work that costs you money. The guy you are working for loves you because he makes his percentage regardless of whether or not the job is profitable.

The key to profitability is ignoring the competition and concerning yourself with ONLY what you and your company needs. This implies that you have to be your own company not an extension of "XYZ" preservation out doing their bidding for peanuts in the field. Ask yourself is this work order good for me? In all business you will win some and you will lose some. In my previous positions in construction I never once witnessed a line of work where so many "lost some" so often. One cannot just say yes to every work order or every job for every client. The most important word in making money is "NO!" learning to say no is the hardest lesson to teach new people in this industry. Common sense should tell newbie's that all the veterans are avoiding this job or this company so stay away. Instead most inexperienced contractors run to that company or that job and say "I can make this work" my question for those people is why would you? Why try to cut corners to make something profitable when you already know what your price is. Anything less than your price is a no.

Our philosophy is "How much can I get for that?" more of a "Where is the ceiling?" we are trying to make huge profit every time out. Sometimes we lose a job and this is a GOOD thing. If you get every job you bid you are leaving money on the table. 

I think many contractors get caught up in their personal bills or cash flow going through their business and lose sight of what is most important to their company PROFIT. Losing a job today will actually MAKE you more money than doing it. If you can't get your price WALK! If the company you work for sends you a ridiculous bid approval send it back. When they give you the "take the good with the bad speech" tell them you will take all the good they can send you and they can keep the bad.


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## Ohnojim

*A lot of guys do not realize that*

regionals, and order mills are actually their competition. It's a bizarre state of ignorance. If you get work from national A, you can sign up with regional xyz, and there is a point at which you will see them sending you the same work orders. Why would you help them take your money? This has happened to me recently, companies sending me work orders, even though I had not filled out any paperwork, other than an online inquiry, at the same time these work orders were in my Que from a national. Once you see that a few times, it should be very clear to you, that you are simply giving your money away to have more headaches.


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## Craigslist Hack

I got a call from a Realtor who has us do ALL of her work. She gave our name to a renter who is buying a house. I went over and looked at the property and the inspection report. In talking with the lady she was all over the place wanting a carpet price, wanting hard wood prices, wanting to waterproof the basement, new roof, new windows, new this new that.

An inexperienced guy would see $$$ signs and that's it. In talking with the lady all I saw were headaches. She is limited in what she can spend because the loan she is getting will only go so high on the price. She will have to do the roof and the electric to get FHA approval. This will eat up most of her budget so she is pushing hard to keep all the pricing dirt cheap. That way she can tackle more projects.

I shot her a HIGH HIGH price. One that will make my competition think I am off my rocker. That way on the next one that I actually want I can get the money I want.

Bottom line is this job and this client were bad work. When your gut tells you to walk it's a good idea to listen.


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> I shot her a HIGH HIGH price. One that will make my competition think I am off my rocker. That way on the next one that I actually want I can get the money I want.


I am NOT a salesmen. Period. Hell I'm not much of a businessman. Only thing I'm good at is working my a$$ off and negotiating with nationals. So...

Help me understand why shooting an "off your rocker" price helps you get the next job for the right money?

Seems to me it could easily go against you in the future...

Word of mouth could be "don't even bother calling CLH, his prices are nowhere near the ballpark".

Or, if she happens to be stupid and shows your bid to your competition before they bid, they could undercut you by a small amount and get a lot more for the job. You just put a nice profit in your competitors pocket.

If you know she has limited money and is going to cherry pick two or three of the 10 jobs, why wouldn't it be better to bid each one at a price that makes you money, even if she only chooses to have you do one (or none) of them?


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## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> I am NOT a salesmen. Period. Hell I'm not much of a businessman. Only thing I'm good at is working my a$$ off and negotiating with nationals. So...
> 
> Help me understand why shooting an "off your rocker" price helps you get the next job for the right money?
> 
> Seems to me it could easily go against you in the future...
> 
> Word of mouth could be "don't even bother calling CLH, his prices are nowhere near the ballpark".
> 
> Or, if she happens to be stupid and shows your bid to your competition before they bid, they could undercut you by a small amount and get a lot more for the job. You just put a nice profit in your competitors pocket.
> 
> If you know she has limited money and is going to cherry pick two or three of the 10 jobs, why wouldn't it be better to bid each one at a price that makes you money, even if she only chooses to have you do one (or none) of them?


Because the lady is going to pick the job apart. I can recognize these clients a mile away. She will never be happy with anyone. Then you run into her having 3 different contractors at her property and everyone gets in each other's way. Also you have contractors telling the customer this should have been done this way or that and they jack up your payouts. I know I've done it. 

If you really don't like the guy you are bidding against you low ball the job ridiculously then when they call tell them you are too busy. They hire the guy your hate and think they paid too much so they hassle him the whole way through. 

As far as people saying don't call CL his prices are high? My customers are the ones that say "I wonder what CL has that's so good it costs more?" I don't want people who buy on price calling me. They are a waste of my time. 

So you don't understand bidding high when you don't want a job? The easy answer is your competition gets used to you asking 425.00 a square for a roof over on a single story ranch with a 4/12 pitch. So he thinks "I'm going against CL and he's asking 425.00 for a layover. I'll price this at 300 and they think they are getting a deal." So when I find a job I want I knock the price down to 225.00 a square for said layover and in my market I can make money at that. When I bid large projects we called it sniping work. We took time to get the good work and let the filler stuff go.


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## disgusted

Yep, always bid the job like you don't want it, you just might make some money if you get it.


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## safeguard dropout

That all makes sense except you make it sound as if you're only ever bidding against 1 or 2 other companies. How do you know exactly who you're bidding against, and how does your competition know they are bidding against you? They would have to have seen your bids dozens of times. Around here, biddin' is biddin' and it's a rare day you see the other guys numbers. How can you work these strategies in large markets?



Craigslist Hack said:


> If you really don't like the guy you are bidding against you low ball the job ridiculously then when they call tell them you are too busy. They hire the guy your hate and think they paid too much so they hassle him the whole way through.


Freikin brilliant! :biggrin:


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## Craigslist Hack

I like to price condition the prospect. Show them some exotic options with hefty price tags. Then when I show them my price it seems low.


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## NCnewbie

Some of us that are third party or working for another company to the national recognize that we could get more going direct, but are sound enough in mind to know we aren't ready for that yet. I'll give them that 20% off the top to not have to deal with the cubicle monkeys. I look at it as paying for mentorship as well. Don't get me wrong, my work is good enough and I'm business minded enough to go direct, but I don't feel we're ready for it yet.


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## Craigslist Hack

NCnewbie said:


> Some of us that are third party or working for another company to the national recognize that we could get more going direct, but are sound enough in mind to know we aren't ready for that yet. I'll give them that 20% off the top to not have to deal with the cubicle monkeys. I look at it as paying for mentorship as well. Don't get me wrong, my work is good enough and I'm business minded enough to go direct, but I don't feel we're ready for it yet.


For some people that is exactly where they should be. I remember when we signed our first national and they started calling with questions on every order. The phone wouldn't quit ringing and we had done the same work the same way for them through a regional the only change was we were now processing our work.

Then the checks came in and that fortune I thought the regional was making on me turned out to not be that much at all.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and charge a fortune. I'm not even saying it's all about price. 

I have a buddy who is a painter. He was painting a restoration project down town. One of his guys broke a toilet from 5o years ago. There were 8 others just like it. The client wouldn't let him replace only 1 so he had to buy all new toilets and pay a licensed plumber to put them in. He had bid the paint job low so he could get the word of mouth and therefore get more jobs. Instead he will be paying for this job with the next 3.

We declined to even bid on that project because it wasn't good work.


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> I like to price condition the prospect. Show them some exotic options with hefty price tags. Then when I show them my price it seems low.


I suppose this is how money is made. I just don't have the stomach for it. I guess it's because I despise salesmen. I refuse to be talked out of more money or more product than what fits my needs or budget.

Years ago my girlfriend was getting walked on by a car salesman. I tried to talk her out of it but she couldn't be pulled away from that cherry red Beretta.

It was a huge multi dealer outdoor tent sale and I was sitting across from him while she was signing papers. He sniffed his nose in the air and said "I think I smell a skunk. Do you smell a skunk?"

I said yep, the place full of them.

He just smiled and said, "Touche".


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## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> I suppose this is how money is made. I just don't have the stomach for it. I guess it's because I despise salesmen. I refuse to be talked out of more money or more product than what fits my needs or budget.
> 
> Years ago my girlfriend was getting walked on by a car salesman. I tried to talk her out of it but she couldn't be pulled away from that cherry red Beretta.
> 
> It was a huge multi dealer outdoor tent sale and I was sitting across from him while she was signing papers. He sniffed his nose in the air and said "I think I smell a skunk. Do you smell a skunk?"
> 
> I said yep, the place full of them.
> 
> He just smiled and said, "Touche".


If I you aren't getting more value you should never pay more. How can you set a budget when you haven't seen all the products?


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> If I you aren't getting more value you should never pay more. How can you set a budget when you haven't seen all the products?


How can you set a household food budget when you don't know what you're going to eat?


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## BRADSConst

safeguard dropout said:


> That all makes sense except you make it sound as if you're only ever bidding against 1 or 2 other companies. How do you know exactly who you're bidding against, and how does your competition know they are bidding against you? They would have to have seen your bids dozens of times. Around here, biddin' is biddin' and it's a rare day you see the other guys numbers. How can you work these strategies in large markets?


This strategy doesn't matter how many people you bid against. It also doesn't always work. Keep in mind, my experience that follows is applicable to direct customer work or government rehab programs. This probably won't work with Joe Regional

First off, you need to ask. Don't be afraid or embarrassed to ask. In this day in age, people shoot their mouth off way too much. My Facebook news feed is full of people telling me where they are, who they are with and what they ate for breakfast. I guess people feel the need to share everything and most times will. You just gotta ask.

I don't get hung up if my competition knows they are bidding against me, especially when I know I'm bidding against them. Makes for a level playing field.

Secondly, don't EVER bash them. Matter of fact, one of my competitors comes highly rated FROM ME!!! If you are willing to talk up a competitor, it helps the customer form a bond of trust. It's human nature to expect contractor A to cut on contractor B. When A praises B for great work, is throws most homeowners off their game. When they are off their game, that's when YOU are in control.

What numbers your competitors use are IRRELEVANT. That's right, it doesn't matter. Their overhead is different from yours. Their profits goals are different from yours (assuming they aren't mistaking profit for labor). The only thing that matters are YOUR numbers. You need to sell the customer on what they are getting for YOUR numbers.

Desperation is a bad deal. Don't ever let them know you are caught up or out of work. Its a bad place to be and then the price haggling begins. I got a call about a basement build out today. I'd love the job as its been cold and my exterior jobs are on hold for a few weeks. I told her I could get their next week to look at it, this is after I email them a questionnaire and then talk ball park pricing when I get the questionnaire back. I'd have shot myself in ass if I told I could be there this afternoon to measure it up and start a week from Monday.

You need to track this stuff to make it worth while. I have a pretty good idea on what I can bid against who. This is solely based on jobs I don't get. That's right, not getting a job can provide you valuable information.

Example of my last two bids:

Customer A told me that no one else would even return calls to look at the job. Also told me that they had $50k worth of equity and were hoping they could get everything done. 

Customer B told me who I was bidding against. Also told me what they were bidding and what their scope of work was. That was all I needed to know.

Both of them have called and confirmed that I will get the jobs. I'm just waiting on the contracts.

Moral of my long story is YOU need to set terms, price, conversation, etc. Don't let your competitors or other forces control the game. When someone contacts me and the first question is "Do you do free estimate?" My response is "I'm booked out approximately 8 weeks. Do you need an estimate or do you want to get on my schedule?".....think about that for a minute. That right there is putting me in control


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## NCnewbie

Craigslist Hack said:


> NCnewbie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of us that are third party or working for another company to the national recognize that we could get more going direct, but are sound enough in mind to know we aren't ready for that yet. I'll give them that 20% off the top to not have to deal with the cubicle monkeys. I look at it as paying for mentorship as well. Don't get me wrong, my work is good enough and I'm business minded enough to go direct, but I don't feel we're ready for it yet.
> 
> 
> 
> For some people that is exactly where they should be. I remember when we signed our first national and they started calling with questions on every order. The phone wouldn't quit ringing and we had done the same work the same way for them through a regional the only change was we were now processing our work.
> 
> Then the checks came in and that fortune I thought the regional was making on me turned out to not be that much at all.
> 
> I'm not saying everyone should go out and charge a fortune. I'm not even saying it's all about price.
> 
> I have a buddy who is a painter. He was painting a restoration project down town. One of his guys broke a toilet from 5o years ago. There were 8 others just like it. The client wouldn't let him replace only 1 so he had to buy all new toilets and pay a licensed plumber to put them in. He had bid the paint job low so he could get the word of mouth and therefore get more jobs. Instead he will be paying for this job with the next 3.
> 
> We declined to even bid on that project because it wasn't good work.
Click to expand...

I know what the company over me is getting and it's worth it for not having to deal with the dumb phone calls and crazy questions all day. It's also worth it for the hours long phone calls I spend with them getting advice on how to do certain jobs the best way. If I could put a price on the advice on knowledge that's been passed down to me I would probably be running next grass season for free to try to cover the debt of gratitude I owe them. The company I was with before this one is another story. They were making money hand over fist off of me and I finally figured out my "profits" were gross and not net. The company I'm with now is one of the rare ones that actually are honest and take care of their subs. He's a member here and I know he'll be reading this. 

I'll eventually go direct but I don't have the office to support it right now. My wife is my office staff and I swear she gets confused between subfloor and soffit sometimes. I don't have the people skills to be the one on the phone. Im quick tempered when I'm on my meds, the few times I remember to take them, even less friendly when I forget as I often do. That brings me to why I like my current configuration which doesn't require me to deal with customers directly, if I had to rely on my people skills I'd be doing the clean out on my own house.


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## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> How can you set a household food budget when you don't know what you're going to eat?



If you have never seen trex decking you wouldn't know how to budget for it. If a guy is offering a better material for a deck and he can't show the prospect the features advantages and benefits of his product he isn't doing himself his product or his customers any favors. 

Right after the hand shake I tell them "I'm CL Hack and I'm going to be the most highest price you have seen. Let me tell you why!" I've had a couple of people say "we just want whatever is cheapest" I ask why they feel that way? If it's a valid reason like that they are selling or moving. I give them the name of a competitor and tell them good luck. 

I've sold too many of those tight margin jobs in the past I finally learned. You might even make a little on the deal but the first time you have to do service you are done. You have to service your customers and it's not your fault they broke the window trying to clean it. 

The only time the other guys price matters is when I am offering the same product or service. 

I wouldn't pay one guy more to move my couch than another. I did once pay a guy 1,200.00 to paint a motorcycle helmet because he had skills.


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## Craigslist Hack

BRADSConst said:


> This strategy doesn't matter how many people you bid against. It also doesn't always work. Keep in mind, my experience that follows is applicable to direct customer work or government rehab programs. This probably won't work with Joe Regional
> 
> First off, you need to ask. Don't be afraid or embarrassed to ask. In this day in age, people shoot their mouth off way too much. My Facebook news feed is full of people telling me where they are, who they are with and what they ate for breakfast. I guess people feel the need to share everything and most times will. You just gotta ask.
> 
> I don't get hung up if my competition knows they are bidding against me, especially when I know I'm bidding against them. Makes for a level playing field.
> 
> Secondly, don't EVER bash them. Matter of fact, one of my competitors comes highly rated FROM ME!!! If you are willing to talk up a competitor, it helps the customer form a bond of trust. It's human nature to expect contractor A to cut on contractor B. When A praises B for great work, is throws most homeowners off their game. When they are off their game, that's when YOU are in control.
> 
> What numbers your competitors use are IRRELEVANT. That's right, it doesn't matter. Their overhead is different from yours. Their profits goals are different from yours (assuming they aren't mistaking profit for labor). The only thing that matters are YOUR numbers. You need to sell the customer on what they are getting for YOUR numbers.
> 
> Desperation is a bad deal. Don't ever let them know you are caught up or out of work. Its a bad place to be and then the price haggling begins. I got a call about a basement build out today. I'd love the job as its been cold and my exterior jobs are on hold for a few weeks. I told her I could get their next week to look at it, this is after I email them a questionnaire and then talk ball park pricing when I get the questionnaire back. I'd have shot myself in ass if I told I could be there this afternoon to measure it up and start a week from Monday.
> 
> You need to track this stuff to make it worth while. I have a pretty good idea on what I can bid against who. This is solely based on jobs I don't get. That's right, not getting a job can provide you valuable information.
> 
> Example of my last two bids:
> 
> Customer A told me that no one else would even return calls to look at the job. Also told me that they had $50k worth of equity and were hoping they could get everything done.
> 
> Customer B told me who I was bidding against. Also told me what they were bidding and what their scope of work was. That was all I needed to know.
> 
> Both of them have called and confirmed that I will get the jobs. I'm just waiting on the contracts.
> 
> Moral of my long story is YOU need to set terms, price, conversation, etc. Don't let your competitors or other forces control the game. When someone contacts me and the first question is "Do you do free estimate?" My response is "I'm booked out approximately 8 weeks. Do you need an estimate or do you want to get on my schedule?".....think about that for a minute. That right there is putting me in control


This guy gets it!

My line about the competition is "they are a great company and if after seeing what we have to offer we don't do business TODAY! I would recommend you go with them I know they do quality work."

The key word is TODAY. Then whe we go to write up the contract if they say they want to shop around I ask them what they are shopping for? The answer is price. They may tell you something different but the real answer is price.


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## safeguard dropout

My comment about despising all salesmen was a bit overdone. I'm only saying what you guys are, but from a buyers side of the fence. I want to control the dialog and as soon as I am being pushed one way or the other, it's like a switch is turned off I am not giving that guy my money. I will ask the questions, and I will listen to anyone selling...and at the end of the day I'm likely not a CLH client. 

If I'm buying new windows, I ask myself a few things.

Will it last my lifetime? (warranty)

Does insulate reasonably well?

Can I see through it?


If my budget for new windows is $10,000 and I find a window package that answers yes to my questions for 10k, I'm the guy that would rather spend 10k on windows, and put 10k in my 401K, instead of spending $20k on top of line windows. 

As a seasoned salesman, how do you convince me your top of the line windows are a better investment than 10k in the 401? 

I'm guessing you refer me to Window World and walk away... :biggrin:


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## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> My comment about despising all salesmen was a bit overdone. I'm only saying what you guys are, but from a buyers side of the fence. I want to control the dialog and as soon as I am being pushed one way or the other, it's like a switch is turned off I am not giving that guy my money. I will ask the questions, and I will listen to anyone selling...and at the end of the day I'm likely not a CLH client.
> 
> If I'm buying new windows, I ask myself a few things.
> 
> Will it last my lifetime? (warranty)
> 
> Does insulate reasonably well?
> 
> Can I see through it?
> 
> 
> If my budget for new windows is $10,000 and I find a window package that answers yes to my questions for 10k, I'm the guy that would rather spend 10k on windows, and put 10k in my 401K, instead of spending $20k on top of line windows.
> 
> As a seasoned salesman, how do you convince me your top of the line windows are a better investment than 10k in the 401?
> 
> I'm guessing you refer me to Window World and walk away... :biggrin:


You would be the PERFECT customer and you would buy. 

One simple question why are you replacing your windows in the first place? 

That is the million dollar question.


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> You would be the PERFECT customer and you would buy.
> 
> One simple question why are you replacing your windows in the first place?
> 
> That is the million dollar question.


Ha! I like your confidence.:vs_smile:

It was only hypothetical scenario, but let's fast forward 10 years. I WILL be replacing a roof. Why am I replacing? It's a 30 year roof and it's been up there 35. Shingles are starting to crack and curl. These are the questions I will ask about a new roof.

Does it look nice?

Will it withstand Midwest climate?

Does it have service warranty?

Will it keep the rain out?

Does it fit the number in my budget?



Am I still the perfect customer? I still say I'm not your customer.

How do you talk me into more than I originally wanted?


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## GTX63

Ohnojim said:


> ...regionals, and order mills are actually their competition. It's a bizarre state of ignorance. If you get work from national A, you can sign up with regional xyz, and there is a point at which you will see them sending you the same work orders. Why would you help them take your money?


I have had to bid against myself so many times over the years I cannot count the number.
When it comes to working direct and keeping the money for yourself, I understand for some there is the fear of the unknown. However, what many fear more than failing is what will they do if they succeed.


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## Ohnojim

*I'm going to try something tomorrow.*

I have accepted the same order from a national and a regional. I am going to complete them both, uploading results to the national one day ahead of the regional and see what happens, this could be a real profit booster.


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## BRADSConst

safeguard dropout said:


> Ha! I like your confidence.:vs_smile:
> 
> It was only hypothetical scenario, but let's fast forward 10 years. I WILL be replacing a roof. Why am I replacing? It's a 30 year roof and it's been up there 35. Shingles are starting to crack and curl. These are the questions I will ask about a new roof.
> 
> Does it look nice?
> 
> Will it withstand Midwest climate?
> 
> Does it have service warranty?
> 
> Will it keep the rain out?
> 
> Does it fit the number in my budget?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I still the perfect customer? I still say I'm not your customer.
> 
> How do you talk me into more than I originally wanted?


 You may not be my customer. That's fine, there are more people that are out there that shouldn't be my customer than should. However there are more than enough that should be to meet my company needs. The key is finding and qualifying them instead of wasting time on those that won't be customers.

Now back to your question. I don't talk anyone into more than they originally want. What I have found is many people don't know what they want until it is shown/explained to them. Following along your roofing scenario, I would ask the following questions.

I see your is 35 years old, that chimney flashing is rusted and is at the end of its useful life. I'm going to replace that while we're here and make sure it lasts the same length as your new roof. Make sure when comparing estimates that the other guys haven't overlooked that.

I see you have 3 satellite dishes up there. Do you still use a dish? If so, we'll remove the old ones and reset the one in use for you. You'll want us to do it for you so it's properly sealed.

That dormer needs new step flashings. The ones up there are 35 years old and are rusted through. We'll remove that the siding and install brand new ones. After all, your new roof is only as watertight as its weakest link.

Are you aware this municipality requires a building permit? Not to worry, I'll take care of that for you so you don't have to take time off work to run down to city hall and pull the permit.

I'm on the job installing your roof. The guys you will see work with me. I don't subcontract my roofs. Rest assured every night everything will be covered before we leave. You will never see an open roof on one of my jobs after we leave for the day.

We use a dump trailer. When we leave, everything is gone. You won't have an unsightly dumpster blocking your garage for the next week until the refuse company picks it up. Not to mention, I will personally guarantee that my trailer will not leave ruts in your blacktop driveway. NOTE this is a HUGE selling point. People want the job done and want to get back to their normal lives.

We tarp everything and clean up throughout the day as we go. I run a magnet frequently to get all the nails that may have come off the tarp or fell on the driveway. My goal is to leave your yard cleaner than when we arrived. Speaking of clean, I include a complimentary gutter cleaning as well. If any downspouts are clogged with leaves, we'll remove them and fix that too.

Your roof is a little cluttered with all those pot vents up there. I've calculated the required attic venting and you would be a great candidate for ridge venting it. Here is a sample of what I use. It's low profile, looks great and eliminates all those protrusions in your roof.

How long do you think you'll live here? Reason I ask is a steel roof will be lower cost over the long run. You will put at least 2 asphalt roofs on in the time one steel roof is up there. The standing seam I install is Energystar certified. Your attic temps will run about 38 degrees cooler in the summer which will help with your A/C cooling bills. If you prefer shingle look, I can install stone coated steel shingles that look just like asphalt. These have a class 4 hail rating. If you're thinking about it, call your insurance agent and let them know. They'll be able to give you a quote on how much you'll save each year on homeowner's insurance.

That's just the start. It is all about education. Through education, I sell value. Sometimes its a tough concept for those living the P&P regional/national rat race. That culture is all about lowest price. I decided a few years back that I wouldn't chase low cost/high volume. I'm not Walmart and never want to be......


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## madxtreme01

I have to say I understand where you are coming from with better quality product equals a higher price, but when a homeowner has an idea to do a project, lets say windows, or a roof, or a new kitchen, even if you can justify the higher price tag, it doesn't mean they can afford it, so does that mean let them walk because they want the basic product? As a contractor, your labor rate should be your labor rate no matter what the product. Product A costs $1, product b costs $3 and product c costs $7, doesn't labor most of the time stay constant unless the product is being installed differently? Let me use a very basic example, Your customer needs a dishwasher installed. Its a basic white $300 one, but the guy down the road buys this high end $1800one , do you charge the white one $150 to install and $700 for the high end one? Install is install


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## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> Ha! I like your confidence.:vs_smile:
> 
> It was only hypothetical scenario, but let's fast forward 10 years. I WILL be replacing a roof. Why am I replacing? It's a 30 year roof and it's been up there 35. Shingles are starting to crack and curl. These are the questions I will ask about a new roof.
> 
> Does it look nice?
> 
> Will it withstand Midwest climate?
> 
> Does it have service warranty?
> 
> Will it keep the rain out?
> 
> Does it fit the number in my budget?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I still the perfect customer? I still say I'm not your customer.
> 
> How do you talk me into more than I originally wanted?


The answer is I don't talk you into anything. I ask a simple question "have you seen a shingle you fell in love with yet?" I already know the answer because I'm there.

I carry with me on an iPad pics of brand new roofs that are failing in our Midwest climate. GAF manufacturers their shingle right where we live. It's supposed to last 30 years right? Yet I have letters from local insurance companies stating that 12-15 years is what people are getting in our area. I have inspection reports where the inspector said a 9yr old roof won't last another 18months and FHA wouldn't finance the house. Now while I'm showing them all of this the customer starts telling me his own stories of how this or that friend had to replace their roof after only 10 years or whatever. Then we talk warranty and this is 100% true that lifetime warranty ONLY guarantees against manufacturing defects. They send a guy out to remove a few shingles and they send them To a lab for testing. If they determine you have a bad shingle (which they never do) they will replace your materials but you still have to pay for labor. 

After I show you what I have on regular shingles I ask you a simple question? Do you gamble much? If not then why are you replacing a product that failed with another product that is going to fail? What if there was a product that would do all of the things you want and last 50years with a real guarantee including Wind damage? 

Once again you will see the value in what I have and buy it. Unless you are moving or simply don't HAVE the means. In each of those cases I'm probably going to find that out within 4-5 minutes of meeting you.


----------



## BRADSConst

Craigslist Hack said:


> This guy gets it!
> 
> My line about the competition is "they are a great company and if after seeing what we have to offer we don't do business TODAY! I would recommend you go with them I know they do quality work."
> 
> The key word is TODAY. Then whe we go to write up the contract if they say they want to shop around I ask them what they are shopping for? The answer is price. They may tell you something different but the real answer is price.


Thanks for your vote of confidence. I would say that "I'm starting to get it". I've learned so much from yourself as well as others on this board, I couldn't possibly thank the vets here enough.

I've started taking my kid on estimates with me. He's a junior in college with a business major. He shakes his head and tells me all the time he can't believe what I can get homeowners to tell me. The more they tell me, the better I can tailor my presentation. 5 years ago, I'd have never believed the examples I've posted on here :biggrin:


----------



## BRADSConst

madxtreme01 said:


> I have to say I understand where you are coming from with better quality product equals a higher price, but when a homeowner has an idea to do a project, lets say windows, or a roof, or a new kitchen, even if you can justify the higher price tag, it doesn't mean they can afford it, so does that mean let them walk because they want the basic product? As a contractor, your labor rate should be your labor rate no matter what the product. Product A costs $1, product b costs $3 and product c costs $7, doesn't labor most of the time stay constant unless the product is being installed differently? Let me use a very basic example, Your customer needs a dishwasher installed. Its a basic white $300 one, but the guy down the road buys this high end $1800one , do you charge the white one $150 to install and $700 for the high end one? Install is install


 No, install is not install. You are forgetting about risk and margin. You better believe that a more expensive one costs more to install. If the basic white one gets damaged during the install, I'm out $300 bucks to get another one from Home Cheapo. If the $1800 dollar one gets scratched, you just screwed yourself only charging $150 to install it.

My employee screwed up a $180 section of composite deck railing. That's a lot different from screwing up a pressure treated 2x4.

Total price = material + labor + profit + overhead + PITA. $150 labor doesn't change, profit and overhead are fixed as well. In your example, material changed from $300 to $1800. PITA must increase as well for the unknowns that will someday become known. :vs_cool:


----------



## BRADSConst

Craigslist Hack said:


> I carry with me on an iPad pics of brand new roofs that are failing in our Midwest climate. GAF manufacturers their shingle right where we live. It's supposed to last 30 years right? Yet I have letters from local insurance companies stating that 12-15 years is what people are getting in our area. I have inspection reports where the inspector said a 9yr old roof won't last another 18months and FHA wouldn't finance the house.


I love insurance companies. American Family is my favorite. I get 6 - 8 calls a year from people who got the letter "You have 6 months to replace your roof or we are cancelling your policy". The only problem is weeding through the people to find out if they can afford me. Most times, they can't but a few can.

I love the FHA thing too. I've been hearing from brokers without an affidavit that the roof has 10 years left in it, FHA is declining financing. What contractor in their right mind would do that? I've been asked and won't do them. So then I discuss the option of a 203k loan and lets get it fixed for you! I'm working on a 203k right now. Sad thing is they won't get the stuff they want as the HUD inspector is going to eat most of their budget on the must do items.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I have to say I understand where you are coming from with better quality product equals a higher price, but when a homeowner has an idea to do a project, lets say windows, or a roof, or a new kitchen, even if you can justify the higher price tag, it doesn't mean they can afford it, so does that mean let them walk because they want the basic product? As a contractor, your labor rate should be your labor rate no matter what the product. Product A costs $1, product b costs $3 and product c costs $7, doesn't labor most of the time stay constant unless the product is being installed differently? Let me use a very basic example, Your customer needs a dishwasher installed. Its a basic white $300 one, but the guy down the road buys this high end $1800one , do you charge the white one $150 to install and $700 for the high end one? Install is install



You are trying to make money on labor. The money we make on labor is just a bonus. We don't mark up the labor that much. We take a TJC (true job cost) and triple it. A very basic formula as long as you have the actual cost figured correctly. If you don't you make less profit but you still make money.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

The point of this thread was more directed towards people working for nationals and regionals. You don't have to be yes men.


----------



## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> The point of this thread was more directed towards people working for nationals and regionals. You don't have to be yes men.


Your point is well taken. I have no doubt that you and Brad have excellent quality craftsmanship, top quality finished products and service to back it up. (and your clients have more money than me :biggrin

I just have to ask one more sales question though.

Being experienced in sales, how do you react when someone tries a worn out one liner on you?

Example;

I called a company last week looking into a service that would cost me around $12,000. After 1/2 hour of fully explaining the service, he asked "Is there anything that stands in the way of you purchasing our service today?". I was nearly on the hook, but that just sounded pathetic! I told him I'd get back to him if I decided to go forward.


----------



## BRADSConst

safeguard dropout said:


> Your point is well taken. I have no doubt that you and Brad have excellent quality craftsmanship, top quality finished products and service to back it up. (and your clients have more money than me :biggrin
> 
> I just have to ask one more sales question though.
> 
> Being experienced in sales, how do you react when someone tries a worn out one liner on you?
> 
> Example;
> 
> I called a company last week looking into a service that would cost me around $12,000. After 1/2 hour of fully explaining the service, he asked "Is there anything that stands in the way of you purchasing our service today?". I was nearly on the hook, but that just sounded pathetic! I told him I'd get back to him if I decided to go forward.


I'll answer you my behalf. I'd never be my own customer. I'm not wired that way and that's fine. It would be extremely tough for me to write out a check for the amount that I charge. But that's O.K. Like I stated earlier, not everyone can be my customer, and that goes for myself as well..:vs_worry:

I do draw the line at hard sales. I don't ever collect a deposit for a new customer the day I hand them the contract. Its a big purchase and I want them to be fine with the decision that they came to all on their own.

Although, as I'm getting older, I'm finding I have a taste for the finer things in life. I guess maybe someday I would be my own customer. I recently bought a brand new Festool drywall sander and vac. Paid twice what I paid for the old Porter Cable it replaced. Tool rep didn't have to sell me, I wanted it so I bought it. Those are the kind of customers I love :vs_love:


----------



## safeguard dropout

BRADSConst said:


> I do draw the line at hard sales. I don't ever collect a deposit for a new customer the day I hand them the contract. Its a big purchase and I want them to be fine with the decision that they came to all on their own.


Now see, that kind of sales I would be much more likely to buy from. When I need my roof and I've got as much as the Donald I"ll give you a shout. :vs_smile:


----------



## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> Your point is well taken. I have no doubt that you and Brad have excellent quality craftsmanship, top quality finished products and service to back it up. (and your clients have more money than me :biggrin
> 
> I just have to ask one more sales question though.
> 
> Being experienced in sales, how do you react when someone tries a worn out one liner on you?
> 
> Example;
> 
> I called a company last week looking into a service that would cost me around $12,000. After 1/2 hour of fully explaining the service, he asked "Is there anything that stands in the way of you purchasing our service today?". I was nearly on the hook, but that just sounded pathetic! I told him I'd get back to him if I decided to go forward.


I would never try to sell you over the phone. That person didn't know what they were doing. 

That question is supposed to be prefaced with major commitments. Do you feel comfortable doing business with out company? Have I done my job did I answer all of your questions and inform you while I was here? Do you feel like our product is the very best product you have seen? So is there any reason other than money we wouldn't be able to get together on an order today?

I rarely almost never leave without a signed contract and a deposit. Usually my customers go get their check book and I just visit with whoever stays behind. I have plenty of work I don't hard sell anyone. 

You think you would be a tough sale but you would be easy. I could sell Brad also because he would respect my skills as a professional. When someone is good at what they do its recognizable and you can't help but appreciate it. 

I hate pushy sales people and I really don't like those LUMPS in suits that are afraid to ask for my business.


----------



## PropPresPro

BRADSConst said:


> . . .I recently bought a brand new Festool drywall sander and vac. Paid twice what I paid for the old Porter Cable it replaced. Tool rep didn't have to sell me, I wanted it so I bought it. . .


Amazing tool! Just like everything else in their line-up. So, do you claim it solely as "mine" or will you let the hired help use it too?


----------



## Craigslist Hack

So far this thread has gotten me nowhere except tool envy! I checked that thing out. Now I want one!


----------



## BRADSConst

PropPresPro said:


> Amazing tool! Just like everything else in their line-up. So, do you claim it solely as "mine" or will you let the hired help use it too?


About 7 months back I bought a CT 26 vac for lead paint RRP work.

Shortly after, I bought the Carvex jigsaw. At first I thought I was nuts spending that much on Jigsaw. I'd do it again in a heartbeat after using the saw. The Festool blades for it are crazy sharp like nothing I've ever seen.

Most recently I picked up the Planex, CT 36 vac, an ETS 125 sander and other misc stuff. I'm pretty sure I'm addicted. Accountant said it was OK though as long as I spent it by year end so that's the excuse I gave the wife...

Yesterday I tried out my new Planex. Holy Chit, nothing like the Porter Cable it replaced. If you get one, dial it on some scrap instead of a finished wall, trust me on that one.......Its a tad bit heavier than the PC, but I fully intend that tool was purchased for the employees, not myself :vs_no_no_no:. Anyway, once it was dialed in, no dust. You can set the vac high enough that it will hang the sander on the wall, just crazy. I'm going to stop by tomorrow and do a quick sand over the durabond base coat just to what thing can really do.

I have my eyes on a Kapex and Rotax, but those will be mine and employees won't be allowed to touch them. They broke my Dewalt sliding compound. It'll get a little JB weld and that will be their saw. 

If CL Hack was selling that stuff, I'd quickly become his biggest customer....


----------



## Craigslist Hack

BRADSConst said:


> About 7 months back I bought a CT 26 vac for lead paint RRP work.
> 
> Shortly after, I bought the Carvex jigsaw. At first I thought I was nuts spending that much on Jigsaw. I'd do it again in a heartbeat after using the saw. The Festool blades for it are crazy sharp like nothing I've ever seen.
> 
> Most recently I picked up the Planex, CT 36 vac, an ETS 125 sander and other misc stuff. I'm pretty sure I'm addicted. Accountant said it was OK though as long as I spent it by year end so that's the excuse I gave the wife...
> 
> Yesterday I tried out my new Planex. Holy Chit, nothing like the Porter Cable it replaced. If you get one, dial it on some scrap instead of a finished wall, trust me on that one.......Its a tad bit heavier than the PC, but I fully intend that tool was purchased for the employees, not myself :vs_no_no_no:. Anyway, once it was dialed in, no dust. You can set the vac high enough that it will hang the sander on the wall, just crazy. I'm going to stop by tomorrow and do a quick sand over the durabond base coat just to what thing can really do.
> 
> I have my eyes on a Kapex and Rotax, but those will be mine and employees won't be allowed to touch them. They broke my Dewalt sliding compound. It'll get a little JB weld and that will be their saw.
> 
> If CL Hack was selling that stuff, I'd quickly become his biggest customer....


I have a love for fine products and great engineering. It's a problem. I'd buy an airplane just for the engine design. It's a sickness.


----------



## AceVentura

Craigslist Hack said:


> I would never try to sell you over the phone. That person didn't know what they were doing.
> 
> That question is supposed to be prefaced with major commitments. Do you feel comfortable doing business with out company? Have I done my job did I answer all of your questions and inform you while I was here? Do you feel like our product is the very best product you have seen? So is there any reason other than money we wouldn't be able to get together on an order today?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Your close but no gusto.
> 
> Do you feel comfortable doing business with out company? - This is not a good question to ask. If your shady then this will probably be asked more. If your trust worthy you need to imply that you are trust worthy so that this question does not need to be asked.
> 
> Have I done my job did I answer all of your questions and inform you while I was here? - Again wrong, while your job in sales is to inform the customer you need to let them ask the questions, you cant just run your mouth the whole time and then at the end say did I tell you everything? They will be sitting there with blank faces trying to decide to buy to shut u up.
> 
> After they are sold on you, you jump into product specifics and qualitys because at that point the deal is done. Rule #1 of selling people don't want to buy from someone they do not like or trust.
> 
> Do you feel like our product is the very best product you have seen? Poor choice - unless their used to only going to menards or Walmart.
> 
> So is there any reason other than money we wouldn't be able to get together on an order today? - This is exactly what someone would do over the phone, so if you are not selling over the phone you need to switch up your tactics.
> 
> If your face to face with someone, you sold them on you, they will tell you what they want and buy it from you. No need for the corny bs closes.
> 
> The best sales men I ever met worked at a Dodge Dealership. I knew I wanted the truck. He just wanted to sit around and b.s about everything for hours. It was by far the best experience I have had with a salesmen. The only time we actually talked about the truck at all was when he threw me the keys for the test drive.


----------



## JoeInPI

Great sales technique can be illustrated perfectly by George Costanza selling computers vs. Lloyd Braun.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> Craigslist Hack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never try to sell you over the phone. That person didn't know what they were doing.
> 
> That question is supposed to be prefaced with major commitments. Do you feel comfortable doing business with out company? Have I done my job did I answer all of your questions and inform you while I was here? Do you feel like our product is the very best product you have seen? So is there any reason other than money we wouldn't be able to get together on an order today?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Your close but no gusto. *You clearly don't understand the selling system see below and learn.*
> 
> Do you feel comfortable doing business with out company? - This is not a good question to ask. *It's a great question to ask and once they tell you they are comfortable they can't tell you at the end "well we wanna check you guys out and look you up on angie's list or call the BBB"* If your shady then this will probably be asked more. If your trust worthy you need to imply that you are trust worthy so that this question does not need to be asked. *It's about getting a commitment that you can feed back to them at the end when you are getting their business. "earlier you did say you would be comfortable doing business with us" It eliminates a possible objection It's basic sales 101 *
> 
> Have I done my job did I answer all of your questions and inform you while I was here? - Again wrong, while your job in sales is to inform the customer you need to let them ask the questions, you cant just run your mouth the whole time and then at the end say did I tell you everything? They will be sitting there with blank faces trying to decide to buy to shut u up.* When I ask did I answer all of your questions how does that imply to you that I talked to their blank faces the whole time? Again you know ZERO about the selling process. This commitment is to stop them from telling us "we just met you" or some other BS stall tactic at the end. We also want to make sure we REALLY did answer all their questions. Once when I asked this the homeowner said "earlier you said something about brickmold? What is brick molding?"*
> 
> After they are sold on you, you jump into product specifics and qualitys because at that point the deal is done. Rule #1 of selling people don't want to buy from someone they do not like or trust.* This is the only thing you have said that makes even a little sense which is why we ask the above preclose questions!*
> 
> Do you feel like our product is the very best product you have seen? Poor choice - unless their used to only going to menards or Walmart. *Again you couldn't be more wrong. When I get to the close and they say "well we want to shop around or we still have a couple of other companies coming out" I can say "earlier you did say you loved our product. In fact you said it was the best you have ever seen. When you say you want to shop around? What are you shopping for? Then we can find out what their real objection is. This is the most important commitment of them all because it eliminates your competition. If I am selling triple pane and they say commit that there is no way they would put double pane in their home? Guess what I am the only guy offering triple pane. So then it becomes about the price which I can control.*
> 
> So is there any reason other than money we wouldn't be able to get together on an order today? - This is exactly what someone would do over the phone, so if you are not selling over the phone you need to switch up your tactics. *WRONG this is the most important pre close question there is. As a matter of fact I won't give them a price If they don't answer it because they aren't ready for a price. Then once I do give them a price if they say they want a different product or they need to shop around or their neighbors name is Sam or any of the other BS objections people use to stall the buying process I can feed it back to them with a smile "earlier you did say there was nothing other than money that would keep us from doing business today. What kind of investment were you thinking this would be?" Then we can start negotiating because the ONLY thing keeping us apart is money. Again I can control the money so I can close. Sometimes I have to throw in some gutter guard or a storm door whatever it takes.*
> 
> If your face to face with someone, you sold them on you, they will tell you what they want and buy it from you. No need for the corny bs closes.* Good thing we don't do corny BS closes. I do offer an Initial Visit discount because I don't like to waste my time. If they buy on initial visit I almost always give 10-15% off.*
> 
> The best sales men I ever met worked at a Dodge Dealership. I knew I wanted the truck. He just wanted to sit around and b.s about everything for hours. It was by far the best experience I have had with a salesmen. The only time we actually talked about the truck at all was when he threw me the keys for the test drive.
> 
> 
> 
> *I spent 3 hours talking to a guy who spent his whole career working for Mueller Fire Hydrants. We had the paperwork done in about 30 mins and spent the rest of the time visiting. He's an awesome dude and builds trikes out of gold wing motorcycles. His work is impeccable. I have sent several people to look at his roof and speak with him about his experience. He is a great reference.
> 
> When I talk to people during the selling process we are trying to eliminate objections so we can get their business. That doesn't mean give them a boring 3 hour spiel. It means find out what their goals are. What they want in the end. How long they expect it to last. Can they afford the project? Are all decision makers present? Nothing worse than talking to a young couple then finding out they want to run it by dad. If dad is involved in the decision he needs to be present to see the product. Many times when dad comes over I end up putting a roof on Dad's house also.
> 
> Before you criticize someone's process (which I learned from sales professionals and training it's not mine) try to understand what it is they are doing and why.
> 
> Go to this site sign up and your income will triple. Buy the cd's and listen to them as you drive and your income will go up. You get out what you put in.
> 
> http://www.rickgrosso.com/
> *
Click to expand...


----------



## AceVentura

Craigslist Hack said:


> AceVentura said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I spent 3 hours talking to a guy who spent his whole career working for Mueller Fire Hydrants. We had the paperwork done in about 30 mins and spent the rest of the time visiting. He's an awesome dude and builds trikes out of gold wing motorcycles. His work is impeccable. I have sent several people to look at his roof and speak with him about his experience. He is a great reference.
> 
> When I talk to people during the selling process we are trying to eliminate objections so we can get their business. That doesn't mean give them a boring 3 hour spiel. It means find out what their goals are. What they want in the end. How long they expect it to last. Can they afford the project? Are all decision makers present? Nothing worse than talking to a young couple then finding out they want to run it by dad. If dad is involved in the decision he needs to be present to see the product. Many times when dad comes over I end up putting a roof on Dad's house also.
> 
> Before you criticize someone's process (which I learned from sales professionals and training it's not mine) try to understand what it is they are doing and why.
> 
> Go to this site sign up and your income will triple. Buy the cd's and listen to them as you drive and your income will go up. You get out what you put in.
> 
> http://www.rickgrosso.com/
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize not trying to strike a nerve, my learning experiences came first hand from some of the best sales professionals you could ever hope to meet.
> 
> The problem you are having that you are not realizing is that you are using high pressure sales tactics. That many attempted pre closes is nothing more then attempting a high pressure close at the end of your spiel.
> 
> All for their own, I think I will try to make one of those cd's you are referring to because you give me the impression that someone would actually buy that nonsense :biggrin:
Click to expand...


----------



## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> Craigslist Hack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize not trying to strike a nerve, my learning experiences came first hand from some of the best sales professionals you could ever hope to meet.
> 
> The problem you are having that you are not realizing is that you are using high pressure sales tactics. That many attempted pre closes is nothing more then attempting a high pressure close at the end of your spiel.
> 
> All for their own, I think I will try to make one of those cd's you are referring to because you give me the impression that someone would actually buy that nonsense :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> Again they are not high pressure anything. They are commitments along the way that eliminate objections.
> 
> The way I sell isn't high pressure at all but it does work 95% of the time.
> 
> I doubt you have ever seen a good sales person.
Click to expand...


----------



## AceVentura

Craigslist Hack said:


> AceVentura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again they are not high pressure anything. They are commitments along the way that eliminate objections.
> 
> The way I sell isn't high pressure at all but it does work 95% of the time.
> 
> I doubt you have ever seen a good sales person.
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason you do not understand those tactics are high pressure is because that is what you were lead to believe.
> 
> High pressure sales = Building a pattern of receiving the word yes over an extended conversation so that at the close they have already built the anticipation of saying the word "YES"
> 
> Sales 101 lesson
> 
> 1. People look to buy something because they have an unfulfilled need.
> 
> 2. A salesman job is to talk with the person to help both the person and the salesperson understand what that need is.
> 
> 3. After trust is established, and the determination of the customers unfulfilled need are found....... It is time to find a solution to the customers problem which comes in the form of a sale of a product which will fulfill their need.
> 
> 4. To fulfill a need of a person their is no need to overcome an objection, as if you work through the unfulfilled problem both the customer and salesperson will come to a realization of whether or not their is an active need and if that need needs to be fulfilled.
> 
> 
> ********* As I said I have learned from some of the best sales people you could ever hope to meet. ********** While other kids were in highschool I was working full time *********** :vs_cool:
Click to expand...


----------



## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> Craigslist Hack said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason you do not understand those tactics are high pressure is because that is what you were lead to believe.
> 
> High pressure sales = Building a pattern of receiving the word yes over an extended conversation so that at the close they have already built the anticipation of saying the word "YES"
> 
> Sales 101 lesson
> 
> 1. People look to buy something because they have an unfulfilled need.
> 
> 2. A salesman job is to talk with the person to help both the person and the salesperson understand what that need is.
> 
> 3. After trust is established, and the determination of the customers unfulfilled need are found....... It is time to find a solution to the customers problem which comes in the form of a sale of a product which will fulfill their need.
> 
> 4. To fulfill a need of a person their is no need to overcome an objection, as if you work through the unfulfilled problem both the customer and salesperson will come to a realization of whether or not their is an active need and if that need needs to be fulfilled.
> 
> 
> ********* As I said I have learned from some of the best sales people you could ever hope to meet. ********** While other kids were in highschool I was working full time *********** :vs_cool:
> 
> 
> 
> As I have stated earlier there is no high pressure. I don't need the business I don't high pressure anyone. As for how I was trained? That has nothing to do with anything I have been to several sales seminars and trainings in cities across the country and I know what works to sell home improvement. I've personally sold over a million dollars in Windows and siding many years in a row but more impressively I have trained newbie's with no clue what sales is to sell over a million in home improvements with the exact system I outlined. Not only does it work it's one size fits all.
> 
> Results don't lie. I have also gotten up and walked out of Dale Carnegie and other courses over the years because they are just trying to get money from wannabe sales people.
> 
> You are making a judgement about me and my sales techniques out of ignorance. You didn't go read the website of the link I posted. You simply think you are right and you couldn't be more wrong. So let me dumb it down for you since I think this will be the best way to communicate and you still follow the conversation.
> 
> I like to hunt deer. Your method is like firing a gun into an open field and hoping the deer runs into the bullet. My method is a hunt, stalk the prey, and put it on the dinner table.
Click to expand...


----------



## AceVentura

Craigslist Hack said:


> AceVentura said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I have stated earlier there is no high pressure. I don't need the business I don't high pressure anyone. As for how I was trained? That has nothing to do with anything I have been to several sales seminars and trainings in cities across the country and I know what works to sell home improvement. I've personally sold over a million dollars in Windows and siding many years in a row but more impressively I have trained newbie's with no clue what sales is to sell over a million in home improvements with the exact system I outlined. Not only does it work it's one size fits all.
> 
> Results don't lie. I have also gotten up and walked out of Dale Carnegie and other courses over the years because they are just trying to get money from wannabe sales people.
> 
> You are making a judgement about me and my sales techniques out of ignorance. You didn't go read the website of the link I posted. You simply think you are right and you couldn't be more wrong. So let me dumb it down for you since I think this will be the best way to communicate and you still follow the conversation.
> 
> I like to hunt deer. Your method is like firing a gun into an open field and hoping the deer runs into the bullet. My method is a hunt, stalk the prey, and put it on the dinner table.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so just to clarify....
> 
> You compare your sales practices to hunting deer,
> 
> Now for you to hunt your deer you stalk your prey, you do not give your deer a chance to get away or consider the option because they do not know that you are coming for them, hence the need to stalk the prey. (That sure sounds like high pressure sales......)
> 
> Now as you said my method is like firing a gun into an open field and hoping a deer runs into the bullet, but maybe you are just a little off.
> 
> Maybe I could just wait in that field for the deer to come to me. While waiting there I could kick back, have a beer, do as I wish. You know what's going to happen - (the deer will come to me), the best part is I don't even need to do anything when they come as maybe I am just there to kick back and have a beer. (being my main original point about sales, if someone has a need, they need it fulfilled, they will come to you)
Click to expand...


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## AceVentura

CraigslistHack

When you look back on this thread you will realize I sold you, and all I had to do is sit back and wait for you to come to me with your problems.....

So how many copies of that sales cd I will make do you want to buy?


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## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> CraigslistHack
> 
> When you look back on this thread you will realize I sold you, and all I had to do is sit back and wait for you to come to me with your problems.....
> 
> So how many copies of that sales cd I will make do you want to buy?


I like a good comedy so I might purchase a few. 

I am definitely sold on a few things and I suppose you are responsible. I am sold that you used to post here under another name and are now back. I am also sold that you are clueless when it comes to sales.

You could never sell an $800.00 a square roof to a customer who has seen 3 companies priced at $275.00 a square with your method. You could however be an order taker and sell a cheap product to a cheap customer. That however is not sales.:biggrin:


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## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> Craigslist Hack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so just to clarify....
> 
> You compare your sales practices to hunting deer,
> 
> Now for you to hunt your deer you stalk your prey, you do not give your deer a chance to get away or consider the option because they do not know that you are coming for them, hence the need to stalk the prey. (That sure sounds like high pressure sales......)
> 
> Now as you said my method is like firing a gun into an open field and hoping a deer runs into the bullet, but maybe you are just a little off.
> 
> Maybe I could just wait in that field for the deer to come to me. While waiting there I could kick back, have a beer, do as I wish. You know what's going to happen - (the deer will come to me), the best part is I don't even need to do anything when they come as maybe I am just there to kick back and have a beer. (being my main original point about sales, if someone has a need, they need it fulfilled, they will come to you)
> 
> 
> 
> All of our customers come to us. Almost all are referrals. I don't have time to sit around drinking beer and waiting for people to decide to call us back or use us. I want to be retied in 15 years and I plan to take advantage of every opportunity to sell good jobs in the meantime.
> 
> My plan is to take my retirement and get someplace warm near the equator. I hate cold, I hate traffic, and I am ready to retire now.
Click to expand...


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## AceVentura

:vs_lol:


Craigslist Hack said:


> I like a good comedy so I might purchase a few.
> 
> I am definitely sold on a few things and I suppose you are responsible. I am sold that you used to post here under another name and are now back. I am also sold that you are clueless when it comes to sales.
> 
> You could never sell an $800.00 a square roof to a customer who has seen 3 companies priced at $275.00 a square with your method. You could however be an order taker and sell a cheap product to a cheap customer. That however is not sales.:biggrin:


Clueless about sales not me, just over time decided how I was willing to sell.

The only reason I would not sell at $800 a square where 3 others have already peddled it to them at $275 is because I would not even bother. In the sales industry its basically falls under the category of "PITCHEN THE B**CH" which everybody knows is a nogo.

I would much rather spend a few hours talken to somebody about sprucing up their cedar shake to really get their house looking as it should. Then spending a few hours talking to somebody about 3 tab vs architectural vs steel. 

Lets put it this way you have found your nitch in "PITCHEN THE B**CH", those are the scraps the rest of us refuse to touch. So if you really want to act like your Don Juan Sales Guru, just go ahead and say thank you to all of us who don't bother to "PITCH THE B**CH", therefore your competition is not overly hard to overcome.

If you decide to switch your sales tactics and play the game the way it is meant to be played, I will come out of retirement (for no more then 1 week), the reason I would do this wouldn't be for the money, it would be to place you at the end of a stick and clean the floors with ya once you understand.

Funny - I'm 29, I consider myself retired...... Your talken about how you need to keep getten your sales..... (Whose playen the wrong game)?


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## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> :vs_lol:
> 
> Clueless about sales not me, just over time decided how I was willing to sell.
> 
> The only reason I would not sell at $800 a square where 3 others have already peddled it to them at $275 is because I would not even bother. In the sales industry its basically falls under the category of "PITCHEN THE B**CH" which everybody knows is a nogo.
> 
> I would much rather spend a few hours talken to somebody about sprucing up their cedar shake to really get their house looking as it should. Then spending a few hours talking to somebody about 3 tab vs architectural vs steel.
> 
> Lets put it this way you have found your nitch in "PITCHEN THE B**CH", those are the scraps the rest of us refuse to touch. So if you really want to act like your Don Juan Sales Guru, just go ahead and say thank you to all of us who don't bother to "PITCH THE B**CH", therefore your competition is not overly hard to overcome.
> 
> If you decide to switch your sales tactics and play the game the way it is meant to be played, I will come out of retirement (for no more then 1 week), the reason I would do this wouldn't be for the money, it would be to place you at the end of a stick and clean the floors with ya once you understand.
> 
> Funny - I'm 29, I consider myself retired...... Your talken about how you need to keep getten your sales..... (Whose playen the wrong game)?


Like I stated before it's not my way. It's a proven system taught by sales professionals world wide. 

I have no clue what you mean by all that nonsense listed above regarding pitchen this or that. I sell the customers that call us and I get my price for my product so I am happy. I don't get all of them and in fact I often don't even bother to sit with many prospects because they simply aren't our kind of customer. 

I took a job for a low end window company once and closed 95% of the leads I went on. It was so easy some customers would order windows by fax or email and I would send a contractor out to measure them. The profit margins sucked and it was the least money I have ever made. I took that as a lesson. If it's so easy that anyone can do it there isn't any money in it.

When I was 29 I was killing it and like you I thought I had it all figured out. It's amazing when you get a little older how much wisdom you have gained.

There was an old bull and a young bull standing on a hill looking down on the meadow full of cows. The young bull says to the old bull "i think I'm going to run down there and breed one of them" the old bull looks at the young bull and says "I think I'll walk down there and breed them all" 

As you get older your goals change and what you thought was success becomes a just a stepping stone to getting where you want to be.

I'm not where I want to be so I will keep working. If you made it to where you want to be congratulations. Good for you.


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## AceVentura

Craigslist Hack said:


> Like I stated before it's not my way. It's a proven system taught by sales professionals world wide.
> 
> I have no clue what you mean by all that nonsense listed above regarding pitchen this or that. I sell the customers that call us and I get my price for my product so I am happy. I don't get all of them and in fact I often don't even bother to sit with many prospects because they simply aren't our kind of customer.
> 
> I took a job for a low end window company once and closed 95% of the leads I went on. It was so easy some customers would order windows by fax or email and I would send a contractor out to measure them. The profit margins sucked and it was the least money I have ever made. I took that as a lesson. If it's so easy that anyone can do it there isn't any money in it.
> 
> When I was 29 I was killing it and like you I thought I had it all figured out. It's amazing when you get a little older how much wisdom you have gained.
> 
> There was an old bull and a young bull standing on a hill looking down on the meadow full of cows. The young bull says to the old bull "i think I'm going to run down there and breed one of them" the old bull looks at the young bull and says "I think I'll walk down there and breed them all"
> 
> As you get older your goals change and what you thought was success becomes a just a stepping stone to getting where you want to be.
> 
> I'm not where I want to be so I will keep working. If you made it to where you want to be congratulations. Good for you.



Ok so pitchen the bitc* refers typically to selling to selling to a person with typically higher voice tones. The only concern is typically price, price, price, and they shop around for their price.

If you are pitchen the b it is usually a waste of time because they are looking for lower then the $275.

People have their own business models, I don't always agree with them, and I like to throw my 2 cents just for a different perspective.

You might want to give Dale Carnegie another shot. I can tell you that what you learn from Dale Carnegie far outways what you will learn from anyone who creates some type of sales tactic or strategy. What you will get is the basic fundementals of listening and how to apply those skills.

A long time ago I made the decision that I would rather work my ass off for ten years, then spend my entire life on a typical 9-5 with social security benefits game plan. If I retire when I am 50 then I missed out on 20 years of retirement between the age of 30 - 50, which contradicts my original game plan. Deciding to retire at an earlier age then most just required a different mind set then most.

Good luck.


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## Craigslist Hack

AceVentura said:


> Ok so pitchen the bitc* refers typically to selling to selling to a person with typically higher voice tones. The only concern is typically price, price, price, and they shop around for their price.
> 
> If you are pitchen the b it is usually a waste of time because they are looking for lower then the $275.
> 
> People have their own business models, I don't always agree with them, and I like to throw my 2 cents just for a different perspective.
> 
> You might want to give Dale Carnegie another shot. I can tell you that what you learn from Dale Carnegie far outways what you will learn from anyone who creates some type of sales tactic or strategy. What you will get is the basic fundementals of listening and how to apply those skills.
> 
> A long time ago I made the decision that I would rather work my ass off for ten years, then spend my entire life on a typical 9-5 with social security benefits game plan. If I retire when I am 50 then I missed out on 20 years of retirement between the age of 30 - 50, which contradicts my original game plan. Deciding to retire at an earlier age then most just required a different mind set then most.
> 
> Good luck.


Technically I could retire now if I wanted. Everything is paid for and we have investments and rental property plus a few flip houses so it would work. It just wouldn't be the lifestyle I want or am accustomed to. 

When I was planning to retire early I forgot to figure in all of my kids going to private school, that I would buy my mom a house and pay her monthly everything because she has health issues, I also have very expensive hobbies and like to travel. So outside of a powerball windfall or some other such found monies I have a few more years to work. No big deal I like what I do for the most part.


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## P3+

As a Kapex owner....order it NOW! You will not regret a single cent of that purchase. The TS 55 is incredible too.





BRADSConst said:


> About 7 months back I bought a CT 26 vac for lead paint RRP work.
> 
> Shortly after, I bought the Carvex jigsaw. At first I thought I was nuts spending that much on Jigsaw. I'd do it again in a heartbeat after using the saw. The Festool blades for it are crazy sharp like nothing I've ever seen.
> 
> Most recently I picked up the Planex, CT 36 vac, an ETS 125 sander and other misc stuff. I'm pretty sure I'm addicted. Accountant said it was OK though as long as I spent it by year end so that's the excuse I gave the wife...
> 
> Yesterday I tried out my new Planex. Holy Chit, nothing like the Porter Cable it replaced. If you get one, dial it on some scrap instead of a finished wall, trust me on that one.......Its a tad bit heavier than the PC, but I fully intend that tool was purchased for the employees, not myself :vs_no_no_no:. Anyway, once it was dialed in, no dust. You can set the vac high enough that it will hang the sander on the wall, just crazy. I'm going to stop by tomorrow and do a quick sand over the durabond base coat just to what thing can really do.
> 
> I have my eyes on a Kapex and Rotax, but those will be mine and employees won't be allowed to touch them. They broke my Dewalt sliding compound. It'll get a little JB weld and that will be their saw.
> 
> If CL Hack was selling that stuff, I'd quickly become his biggest customer....


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## BRADSConst

P3+ said:


> As a Kapex owner....order it NOW! You will not regret a single cent of that purchase. The TS 55 is incredible too.


I opted for a Makita track saw. Tracks are interchangeable and I heard that the TS55 was a little underpowered compared to the Makita. Not to mention the Makita was a couple hundred less.

Thanks for the vote of confidence on the Kapex. I'll get one within the next 3-4 months....:vs_OMG:


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## BPWY

BRADSConst said:


> I opted for a Makita track saw. Tracks are interchangeable and I heard that the TS55 was a little underpowered compared to the Makita. Not to mention the Makita was a couple hundred less.
> 
> Thanks for the vote of confidence on the Kapex. I'll get one within the next 3-4 months....:vs_OMG:




If the other one is under powered compared to the Makita then I'd say its about useless. 
Or maybe Matt's blade was real dull :glasses::vs_whistle:


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## G 3

Thank god you guys came in and put this conversation back on track!


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## Craigslist Hack

G 3 said:


> Thank god you guys came in and put this conversation back on track!



It did get ugly and for that I apologize.


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## Ohnojim

*One thing I know for sure*

If you need a power sander of any kind on drywall, you should hire someone who knows what they are doing. We get paid to put the mud on, not take it off.


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## BRADSConst

Ohnojim said:


> If you need a power sander of any kind on drywall, you should hire someone who knows what they are doing. We get paid to put the mud on, not take it off.


For new jobs, I have a sub for drywall. On remodels, we do it in house for scheduling reasons. I'm by no means a pro at drywall, but I'm pretty damn good. The biggest reason I use a power sander is for grinding off old textures and paint to get the new mud to bond and textures to match.


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## Ohnojim

*I have seen many nightmares with power*



BRADSConst said:


> For new jobs, I have a sub for drywall. On remodels, we do it in house for scheduling reasons. I'm by no means a pro at drywall, but I'm pretty damn good. The biggest reason I use a power sander is for grinding off old textures and paint to get the new mud to bond and textures to match.


sanders on drywall jobs, I might be a little twitchy about it.


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## Ohnojim

*I changed my mind on the drywall sander.*

I have 60,000 sq. ft to sand. Uncle!!. After sanding the first 20+K job, I think I'll look into it. I guess you can't blame operator error on the tool.


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## industrialguttersma

disgusted said:


> Yep, always bid the job like you don't want it, you just might make some money if you get it.


True! and always matters on how you approach or react to it. Sometimes, good communication skills pay off.

Regards,
George
http://industrialguttersma.com/


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