# National employee



## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

Hi all! My name is Nick, and I am on the evil side of prop pres (I work/have worked for nationals). I want to give a different view of the issues that many of you have been having, but first I want to give a little bit of my background. I got started in this industry a short 2 1/2 years ago with a national pres company (I am not going to use names at this time), where I started as a lowly processor, and eventually made my way to the head of the field tech support department. After two years, I was offered a better position from one of the vendors that I worked with, and went to work with them, at the regional level. After moving away from my first experience with this industry, and going from a national level to a regional level, I noticed all of the mistakes that the national was making (the regional still works for that national). I had noticed many things that seemed wrong when I was at the national, but I didn't truly understand how or why, until I made my way to the regional level. I worked with the regional vendor for 6 months, during which I did a few evictions and initial secures, personally (I still was a desk jockey though). I now work for a national preservation company that deals mainly with repair and rehab orders, not so much of the lock changes and grass cuts. I am going to hopefully be adding my two sense in to the discussions, and hopefully be able to give some good advice, especially with my experience in the national market. If anyone has any questions, please do not hesitate to PM me! Thank you!


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## PPArt (Jun 3, 2014)

I would like to hear your insight on bids approved at reduced rates.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

PPArt said:


> I would like to hear your insight on bids approved at reduced rates.


In my experience, the only discrepancies that can be argued directly to the national are BATF bids. Bid approvals that come back from the a national are sent at the approved amount from the bank/mortgage company. When I was working for the first national, there were many times where I had to discuss pricing with my vendor network. I would be given the exact approval from NOVAD or WF, or whoever the approval came from, with all of the information. While the approvals were normally near the bids provided, many times, the approval was at a significantly lower price. At that point, there is nothing that most nationals are willing to do, as if they re-submit the bid again, it will most likely be approved at the same amount, and they will look bad to their client. Now, I am not saying that the nationals are never at fault. The nationals obviously take their cut of the approval, but from my personal experience, more often than not, the national was not trying to screw anyone over, and actually would take some losses to get work completed (just as some contractors do, to ensure they get the profitable work). I truly believe that the complaints that contractors have are very similar to the complaints that the regionals have of nationals, and that the nationals have of their clients. I hope that helps, sorry for rambling on! If you have a specific instance, let me know and I can see if I can provide any advice!


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*The more pertenant question is*



NickT said:


> In my experience, the only discrepancies that can be argued directly to the national are BATF bids. Bid approvals that come back from the a national are sent at the approved amount from the bank/mortgage company. When I was working for the first national, there were many times where I had to discuss pricing with my vendor network. I would be given the exact approval from NOVAD or WF, or whoever the approval came from, with all of the information. While the approvals were normally near the bids provided, many times, the approval was at a significantly lower price. At that point, there is nothing that most nationals are willing to do, as if they re-submit the bid again, it will most likely be approved at the same amount, and they will look bad to their client. Now, I am not saying that the nationals are never at fault. The nationals obviously take their cut of the approval, but from my personal experience, more often than not, the national was not trying to screw anyone over, and actually would take some losses to get work completed (just as some contractors do, to ensure they get the profitable work). I truly believe that the complaints that contractors have are very similar to the complaints that the regionals have of nationals, and that the nationals have of their clients. I hope that helps, sorry for rambling on! If you have a specific instance, let me know and I can see if I can provide any advice!


what makes a national think a contractor should honor a reduced bid? Why waste the contractors time in the first place, if you are just going to make the numbers up? Why does a national not have anyone with negotiating or sales skills to get the number the contractor bid? 

Oh, sorry almost forgot, welcome to the forum.


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## PPArt (Jun 3, 2014)

To add to the comment above. Especially when the price is per the repair base that they use to reduce bids but will even reduce the repair base bids. If they are truly only making the discount, wouldn't it benefit the national to use common sense and stick with the cost estimates? This makes me think they are pocketing the difference. In fact I have proof of this from reps mistakenly sending me bid reduction emails but the price being more than I actually bid.


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Why are we required to spend hour upon hour bidding properties this way and that only to have the bank turn them over to realtors full of debris.


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## madxtreme01 (Mar 5, 2015)

Craigslist Hack said:


> Why are we required to spend hour upon hour bidding properties this way and that only to have the bank turn them over to realtors full of debris.



How about why are we required to bid EVERYTHING that a property needs knowing that they won't approve it, but if we forget something we have to fix it for free or get backcharged because they sent someone else to do it instead. Instead either pay us to place these bids (not a dumb trip charge) or give us a list of items they will approve and only require us to bid those items.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

Ohnojim said:


> what makes a national think a contractor should honor a reduced bid? Why waste the contractors time in the first place, if you are just going to make the numbers up? Why does a national not have anyone with negotiating or sales skills to get the number the contractor bid?
> 
> Oh, sorry almost forgot, welcome to the forum.


Thank you for the welcome! Obviously I cannot speak for all nationals, or even for a full company, I can only advise what I have seen. I did not work directly in the bid department, but worked closely with them on multiple occasions. From what I saw, the only time that the company I worked for would cut the bid is if the approval came back lower than the bid. I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that they should be approved right away, at the bid price, when using RepairBase, but it doesn't always work like that. I have seen approvals come back from the national's client, which was cut from the RB amount. At this point, the national doesn't really have a choice, other than to get it completed for the approval amount, or risk causing an issue with the bank/client. Please remember, there may have been other options, but this was the information that was provided to me while working there. I know the approvals that the national I worked for came back from NOVAD, which is basically just an order mill for approvals. The approval comes back in the form of an email, with check boxes for reasoning. As far as I know, the bid department did not even speak to this company, other than receiving the emails, so the sales skills would be completely useless, unfortunately.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

Craigslist Hack said:


> Why are we required to spend hour upon hour bidding properties this way and that only to have the bank turn them over to realtors full of debris.


Unfortunately, I do not have an answer for this. I really wish I knew. I do not have many contacts with the banks, only from nationals down. I promise this is not a shameless plug, but the company I work for now (If anyone wants to know they can PM me) does not require bids from our vendors. We use the inspection photos and reports (we require full property inspections, and actually pay for them) to bid out the property, in office, to cut down on our vendors time. I honestly think that the banks giving the work to the agent's is one of the shadiest moves in the industry. If the item is going to be sent to the agent, the contractor's information should be sent as well, and at least suggested that they be the ones to complete. As much as someone could state that I am defending the nationals, I like to think (hope) that all of my contractor friends know that I am one of the few people in the national game that stand up for them, and argued with my superiors (not needed anymore at my current company) when I saw something that didn't look right.

Sorry for the book, I just can't stop once I get going sometimes =3.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

madxtreme01 said:


> How about why are we required to bid EVERYTHING that a property needs knowing that they won't approve it, but if we forget something we have to fix it for free or get backcharged because they sent someone else to do it instead. Instead either pay us to place these bids (not a dumb trip charge) or give us a list of items they will approve and only require us to bid those items.


I am not 100%, but I do believe that the necessity of providing a bid for everything that can be bid at a property is more of an insurance issue than anything else. If anything isn't bid, and let's say a bank rep visits a property and sees something that wasn't bid, are they are going to request that a bid be placed, or are they going to demand it be completed for free, as it was not reported prior? Once again, I could be wrong, but from my experience I believe the latter to be true. Let me know if anyone has experience in dealing with something like this that dissents from my opinion, please!


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## disgusted (Sep 18, 2015)

Hi Nick, welcome to the board, I'm new here also. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge regarding what a vendor invoiced the national, taking into account the discount, and what was actually billed to the lender/banks ?


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

disgusted said:


> Hi Nick, welcome to the board, I'm new here also. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge regarding what a vendor invoiced the national, taking into account the discount, and what was actually billed to the lender/banks ?


Honestly, I do not really have any information regarding the invoices sent to the nationals clients. I have seen some of the approval amounts that differed from the amount sent to the contractor (other than the normal discount), but as far as I had noticed, that was not normally the case. Sorry I really couldn't help with that one! Welcome to the boards! Everyone seems to be very helpful and nice, even considering I'm one of those annoying recruiters for a national lol. Good luck!


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*If I were a national and subbing with my own pricing*



disgusted said:


> Hi Nick, welcome to the board, I'm new here also. I'm wondering if you have any knowledge regarding what a vendor invoiced the national, taking into account the discount, and what was actually billed to the lender/banks ?


I would certainly re-invoice orders as a standard practice, if a contractor completed work and wasn't smart enough to invoice it, I;m sure I would have a team just looking for that stuff. Nothing wrong with that.


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## madxtreme01 (Mar 5, 2015)

NickT said:


> I am not 100%, but I do believe that the necessity of providing a bid for everything that can be bid at a property is more of an insurance issue than anything else. If anything isn't bid, and let's say a bank rep visits a property and sees something that wasn't bid, are they are going to request that a bid be placed, or are they going to demand it be completed for free, as it was not reported prior? Once again, I could be wrong, but from my experience I believe the latter to be true. Let me know if anyone has experience in dealing with something like this that dissents from my opinion, please!



What your saying makes sense, but at the same time if bids are needed then pay for them. What contractor is going to spend an hour at a house looking at every detail and then go home or to the office to go to the cost estimator and come up with a price, waste another hour submitting the order, all for a lousy trip charge? The trip charge barely covers the cost of fuel, how can it cover the 2+ hours that most of these properties need to be properly bid to never get an approval. I would even accept $10 per line item, but refunded from approval. So if a house had 10 items needed bidding, $100 for the bid and $10 deducted from each line item approval. I can probably speak for almost everyone here that we have wasted hours bidding 30 things at a property to only get an approval for a padlock and hasp for an unsecure property. I mean if they want an estimate for insurance, then file a claim or hire a claims adjuster. They are robbing us blind asking for this garbage and then finding us responsible because something was missed. Pay more than a trip charge and you will get more than a trip charges worth of work.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

madxtreme01 said:


> What your saying makes sense, but at the same time if bids are needed then pay for them. What contractor is going to spend an hour at a house looking at every detail and then go home or to the office to go to the cost estimator and come up with a price, waste another hour submitting the order, all for a lousy trip charge? The trip charge barely covers the cost of fuel, how can it cover the 2+ hours that most of these properties need to be properly bid to never get an approval. I would even accept $10 per line item, but refunded from approval. So if a house had 10 items needed bidding, $100 for the bid and $10 deducted from each line item approval. I can probably speak for almost everyone here that we have wasted hours bidding 30 things at a property to only get an approval for a padlock and hasp for an unsecure property. I mean if they want an estimate for insurance, then file a claim or hire a claims adjuster. They are robbing us blind asking for this garbage and then finding us responsible because something was missed. Pay more than a trip charge and you will get more than a trip charges worth of work.


I agree with you 1000%. The company I work for now (once again sorry for the shameful plug), does it the right way. We do not require our contractors to provide bids. We have crews perform full property inspections (minimum of 250 photos, and 3 reports), and the bids get drawn up in the office. I think this way works great, and gives some leeway to our vendors as well, as if they don't like an order, they can refuse it, without any negative repercussions, as it was not their bid anyway. This also obviously saves the time required to write up the bids, but not the time spent at the property. Our inspections do pay more than a trip charge, which is $35 less discount for most clients, right? Our inspections pay $65, but can be increased for distance or other extenuating circumstances. Let me know what you think of this set-up, as I really do appreciate feedback.


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## madxtreme01 (Mar 5, 2015)

NickT said:


> I agree with you 1000%. The company I work for now (once again sorry for the shameful plug), does it the right way. We do not require our contractors to provide bids. We have crews perform full property inspections (minimum of 250 photos, and 3 reports), and the bids get drawn up in the office. I think this way works great, and gives some leeway to our vendors as well, as if they don't like an order, they can refuse it, without any negative repercussions, as it was not their bid anyway. This also obviously saves the time required to write up the bids, but not the time spent at the property. Our inspections do pay more than a trip charge, which is $35 less discount for most clients, right? Our inspections pay $65, but can be increased for distance or other extenuating circumstances. Let me know what you think of this set-up, as I really do appreciate feedback.



I think 250 photos is ridiculous and unnecessary unless its a 10k sq ft mansion. On an average 4br 2k sq ft house I wouldn't know what to take that many photos of. I think a better way of doing things is to request bids for items the client is looking to have completed, otherwise a mention of work that needs to be done in a list without numbers or dimensions. So it would read something like this. Mold in basement, plumbing system does not hold pressure, house filled with debris, etc. etc. then let the client come back and say of please provide a bid for x,y, and z services.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

It isn't hard to take 100 pics in 10 minutes. Exterior, outbuildings, interior, basement, mechanicals, etc.
It is a pia to upload and label for some entity that doesn't pay for yet requires them.

We take a full set of photos on every job site for our own files for

#1 Documentation/condition/liability.
#2 Bids now or future.
#3 Reference ie 80% or 90% furnace, gas or electric water hearer, etc
#4 As a sales tool.
Get a broker who can't get to the property for whatever reason to take their photos right away, or a house full of fleas, etc and you already have what they need; they will remember you.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

madxtreme01 said:


> I think 250 photos is ridiculous and unnecessary unless its a 10k sq ft mansion. On an average 4br 2k sq ft house I wouldn't know what to take that many photos of. I think a better way of doing things is to request bids for items the client is looking to have completed, otherwise a mention of work that needs to be done in a list without numbers or dimensions. So it would read something like this. Mold in basement, plumbing system does not hold pressure, house filled with debris, etc. etc. then let the client come back and say of please provide a bid for x,y, and z services.


250 photos does sound like an inordinate amount, but when you think about it, it really isn't bad. Take into account that we are looking for dimensions of rooms, as well as any potential items that can be bid. That 250 number shrinks extremely fast if you are taking the photos right (not saying anyone isn't lol). I know that the first property I went to, I took wayyyy too few photos (I did a 3 cyd trash out, big one right?), and ended up having to go back 3 times, because I was not used to taking the photos (I'm a cubicle jockey =[). I ended up having about 100 photos just for this one 3cyd trash out. I learned, very quickly, what photos to take (everything).


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## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

250 photos on a initial inspection is about right. Might be a little high. But if you're doing it right, 250 isn't extreme. 
Unless you have a perfect house, no damages and no debris. If there are damages and debris 300 photos is easy to get to.


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## NCnewbie (Aug 6, 2014)

NickT said:


> madxtreme01 said:
> 
> 
> > I think 250 photos is ridiculous and unnecessary unless its a 10k sq ft mansion. On an average 4br 2k sq ft house I wouldn't know what to take that many photos of. I think a better way of doing things is to request bids for items the client is looking to have completed, otherwise a mention of work that needs to be done in a list without numbers or dimensions. So it would read something like this. Mold in basement, plumbing system does not hold pressure, house filled with debris, etc. etc. then let the client come back and say of please provide a bid for x,y, and z services.
> ...


I just did about a 90 CY trash out and had somewhere in the ballpark of 1300 pictures. We had 2 cameras running to make sure we got everything. 

On the other hand an initial secure with full wint on a $500,000 house (5 bedroom, 4 bathroom) with condition pics, bids, mechanicals, debris, probably just barely got into the 200-300 range. 

I can see 250 being easy to get to, I can also see it being a PITA to come up with more pictures.


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

250 pictures...not a problem
full inspection...not a problem
room measurements...not a problem
3 reports to complete...not a problem

$65...problem


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

safeguard dropout said:


> 250 pictures...not a problem
> full inspection...not a problem
> room measurements...not a problem
> 3 reports to complete...not a problem
> ...


I agree that $65 is not a large amount for such a detailed inspection, believe me! The price is somewhat negotiable. Honestly, I have never seen a national pay anywhere near that much for an inspection, but then again most of the inspections I dealt with prior were occupancy inspections, not full property inspections. Our average work order that is issued is around $10,000, barring inspections, and when we provide the client with a bid, we almost always receive an approval. I know I really don't have to defend myself here, but I feel like I do lol. I know how bad of a rap all nationals get in the industry, and most of them are WELL WELL deserved, I think that's why I am actually passionate about my current employer, because everything finally makes sense (to me at least), and I actually can be proud to say I work for Brookstone Management. I'm sure you noticed I have not mentioned my prior employers...


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm not hacking on you in any way Nick, you seem to just call like you see it. It is nice to have some facts coming from the other side of the fence.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

safeguard dropout said:


> I'm not hacking on you in any way Nick, you seem to just call like you see it. It is nice to have some facts coming from the other side of the fence.


I didn't think you were, I just felt the need to explain myself. Everyone here has been more than kind and generous, considering I'm basically on the dark side of preservation... I like that actually lol. "Only a national deals in absolutes!"


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

NickT said:


> I didn't think you were, I just felt the need to explain myself. Everyone here has been more than kind and generous, considering I'm basically on the dark side of preservation... I like that actually lol. "Only a national deals in absolutes!"



Yes my dear friend, i know you and your boss!! "Mr Goodman" 

Ha, Ha, it took awhile for me to connect the dots. I see you have moved up in the world a bit. Grats. :vs_cool: this post is in reference to other post asking me who i was.


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## madxtreme01 (Mar 5, 2015)

NickT said:


> I agree that $65 is not a large amount for such a detailed inspection, believe me! The price is somewhat negotiable. Honestly, I have never seen a national pay anywhere near that much for an inspection, but then again most of the inspections I dealt with prior were occupancy inspections, not full property inspections. Our average work order that is issued is around $10,000, barring inspections, and when we provide the client with a bid, we almost always receive an approval. I know I really don't have to defend myself here, but I feel like I do lol. I know how bad of a rap all nationals get in the industry, and most of them are WELL WELL deserved, I think that's why I am actually passionate about my current employer, because everything finally makes sense (to me at least), and I actually can be proud to say I work for Brookstone Management. I'm sure you noticed I have not mentioned my prior employers...



I ran into a guy from your place today, it was in Brick, guy was finishing up his pictures from a grass cut.


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## madxtreme01 (Mar 5, 2015)

I still don't see the quantity of photos thing. The clients are just looking for reasons not to pay and say not enough photos were taken. The average 4br house that has no damage and no debris, I can't see more than 50-75 photos. A 3cy cleanout would really depend on how spread out the debris is, but if it's just a sofa and loveseat I can't see more than a few pics of before, carrying it out, on your trailer, and gone from the room. How many different sides do you need to show that couch from. It's just gotten to a point where they are looking for reasons to make you work for less than $20/hr forcing you to spend more time taking photos instead of actually completing the work. They could care less if the job was done correctly, as long as you have 1000 pics to justify what was done.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Used to be a roll or 2 of Polaroid film express mailed in and payment in about 2 weeks. Then came the regionals. We where always 200-300 pics for a full Fannie initial with AMS and never an issue. We where in the top vendors in the nation for months on end and got the $5,000 bonus TWICE in 6 months for being #1. Part of the issue is they throw ANYTHING up against the wall to see what will stick and waste a LOT of peoples time bidding for nothing.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

NickT said:


> Unfortunately, I do not have an answer for this. I really wish I knew. I do not have many contacts with the banks, only from nationals down. I promise this is not a shameless plug, but the company I work for now (If anyone wants to know they can PM me) does not require bids from our vendors. We use the inspection photos and reports (we require full property inspections, and actually pay for them) to bid out the property, in office, to cut down on our vendors time. I honestly think that the banks giving the work to the agent's is one of the shadiest moves in the industry. If the item is going to be sent to the agent, the contractor's information should be sent as well, and at least suggested that they be the ones to complete. As much as someone could state that I am defending the nationals, I like to think (hope) that all of my contractor friends know that I am one of the few people in the national game that stand up for them, and argued with my superiors (not needed anymore at my current company) when I saw something that didn't look right.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for the book, I just can't stop once I get going sometimes =3.



I miss working with you Nick. You made it easy. I hope all is well with you mofo!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

I have been out of this race for a while now but I remember when I would have disagreements with these companies. Some of the stuff you just have to stand your ground and fight for what is right. Believe me if a company will try o take your money why even bother doing any work for them.
1. We refused to do a work order for a national because they tried to lower our bid. Then they turn around and tell me that they are back charging us because they "needed" to have another contractor do the work. They I see they are charging us almost $250.00 than what our bid was for. When I questioned they said "oh that is what the estimator called for". Well after explaining that I was going to the bank and to the Attorney General's office and file a theft of deception charge, they "agreed" to drop the matter.
In 7 years I only had 1 no charge order that I did not win the fight on and that was for $35.00. Never just give in to them. 
They know that once you give in than they have you.


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## ANSprop (Dec 4, 2015)

I have heard good t5hings about Brookstone. NickT Is Brookstone actively looking for vendors I have been submitting my information but no one over calls or emails?


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

thanohano44 said:


> I miss working with you Nick. You made it easy. I hope all is well with you mofo!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Miss you too buddy! The second I have anything in Hawaii I'll give you a shout if you are interested! Thanks for the support!


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

ANSprop said:


> I have heard good t5hings about Brookstone. NickT Is Brookstone actively looking for vendors I have been submitting my information but no one over calls or emails?


That is very odd. We are actively looking for vendors. Who have you been contacting? Send me a PM. I'll get you all of the paperwork, and we can get the process started!


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## GGC (Feb 5, 2013)

Hey Nick, sent you a pm for more info on becoming a vendor. Appreciate you answering all the questions like you have been and welcome to the forum.


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## NickT (Nov 2, 2015)

GGC said:


> Hey Nick, sent you a pm for more info on becoming a vendor. Appreciate you answering all the questions like you have been and welcome to the forum.


I try my best! I have been trying to get more an internet presence for my employer (I'm sure anyone who is friends with me on Facebook will see that), but I know that is frowned upon here, so I would rather build my own presence, and attach it to that of my employer. Also, I just generally enjoy helping out, and sharing information! Plus, who can complain when part of your job is to enjoy discussions and learn new things on a message board?

P.S. my higher ups didn't ask me to do anything like this, I doubt they even know I post on this site, just want to clarify, as I know that can be taken the wrong way!


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