# Safeguard Conference call



## wmhlc

Whats everybody thoughts on the new Audit program safeguard is rolling out?????

Yearly audits on your business just checking you training, background checks, insurance programs, lien waivers from all subs, permits, all the fun stuff, licenses just about everything to safeguard their clients interest. Or more like cover safeguard butt so we stop getting lawsuits

A lot of pissed off people on that conference call!!!!!


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## Coos-NH

LPS has been doing this for a while now. They insist on visiting your office, checking that you have insurance certificates for any subs that you use, your contracts, how you store your info, even insisting that you have a documented QC program in place. Of course they then give you a low-balled pricing structure to exist on. They want you to be a 1099 IC with employee requirements it would seem.


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## BamaPPC

There was an ol boy from Tennesee that was pretty hot about the background checks.  they told him to "call us to discuss individually" real quick.

The requirements aren't going away. They're trying to cover their butts against a Federal Audit that's coming to them. What will have to go away is sub-standard contractors. But the catch 22 on that is, a bunch of good contractors will also be forced to "go-away". And that's going to leave SG with fewer contractors, and the contractors left will be required to cover larger areas. Going along with SG's philosophy of "make it up in volume". And then the ones that think they can make it up with volume will work for months before they figure out they're close to bankruptcy and quit. And then the whole SOB will collapse. Unless SG changes the way they pay. And they won't. They'll just keep hiring more unsuspecting contractors and run them for a few months, and then hire more. until they finally run out of contractors able to meet the requirements. By then, I guess they hope the heat will be off of them and they can go back to hiring hacks.

Man, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Alan and Robert talk about this crap in private.


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## SRT-Diesel

You mean the guy that walks butt naked around his home? 
The first question with all of the contractors on the line was this *******. It made my day, I actually stayed on the call longer in hopes someone else would say some crazy **** as well.


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## Splinterpicker

Sg contractor in my area Is not licensed with the state ... How they can allow that I have NO idea. Just a matter of time till this WHOLE industry is turned on its head ! The nationals have been ruthless and more like terriorists in their tactics for too long ! Just be REALLY careful when they want to look at your "BOOKS", like FAS years back then teh pricing was dropped like a giloutene. I'd have 2 sets one for them showing VERY LITTLE profit and another for real ! NO ONE LOOKS AT MY BOOKS except for my accountant at tax time.


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## GTX63

Those calls are a hoot. I can recall some that were so heated and chaotic that they cut it short and hung up within a few minutes. That is also why they had the mute feature installed; so they can keep everyone quiet until they have spewed out their presentation. 107 contractors on the line and all you can hear are voices (those voices in my head...), dogs barking, birds chirping, kids screaming. Loved it.


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## Cleanupman

Not to be rude..but anyone that agrees to this is crazy...

That is called 'Direction and Control" 

Sorry folks but ya'll gotta quit rolling over and licking the proverbial buttchecks and say no to this intrusion...

Unless of course you can go to SGP and inspect their books, how they store their information etc...

I'm sorry but if I or any of you need advise on how to operate your business there are people in the community called...Business consultants and advisors.
You'll find that the money you spend on them will be a safer bet than doing business with SGP.

Ask an attorney this makes you an employee....

OH and so no one gets up set I will be writing an article on this subject...If no one wishes to be quoted please let me know I will respect that and not use anyones names...but if no one objects I will use some of the comments...
Thankxx

OH yeah Splinterpicker...we have a couple companies here doing the same...SGP subbers...


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## Ohnojim

*I would drop any company like a bad habbit*

if they wanted that kind of information, and control. I have simply ignored the third party background checks, vehicle information, and anything else besides my contractor license, relevant certifications, and insurance information, from every company that asked for it, not one has stopped sending work orders. As I explained it to them "If you wish to run a BC there is enough information on the W-9" I will not send credit card information, or other vital statistics to third parties, ever. If that means you have to re-assign my work, feel free.


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## ALS9386

I quit today!!! We are no longer doing inspection!!!


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## GTX63

I'm sure everyone who has done work for safeguard knows that those conference call notices are emailed out to everyone as "mandatory". You must rvsp so they can mark you down. You are given the time, the date, the code to enter, etc. Failure to attend may result in the soup nazis at your door.


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## GTX63

ALS9386 said:


> I quit today!!! We are no longer doing inspection!!!


So, how did that conversation go?


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## Irnhrse5

The field audits will be simple, quick looks at your office, if they even happen at all. It's been 4 months since we have heard from our QC guy here in Texas. If they don't have the people to perform QC inspections, what makes you think every vendor will be audited? The requirements for their audits aren't outrageous. I already run back ground checks on all my guys. I have a training plan, QC plan, and safety plan on paper and PowerPoint. I have my insurance docs. Texas doesnt recognize lien waviers, so we dont have them. We dont have GC licesces in Texas. These doofuses could walk in tomorrow and I'd be prepared. This was stated before, but ill say it again. It's a CYA for the new CFPB regulations. These audits won't have any effect on our business.


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## Craigslist Hack

LPS does all of this and they recently cut our pay then told us EVERY order has to have a cost estimator. 

The industry is going to ****. More and more regs lower and lower prices.


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## Cleanupman

Craigslist Hack said:


> LPS does all of this and they recently cut our pay then told us EVERY order has to have a cost estimator.
> 
> The industry is going to ****. More and more regs lower and lower prices.


Yet no one wishes to accept the value of organizing labor in this industry....


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## Irnhrse5

Aaron, 
Are any numbers available that show the number of employees a standard PPC has? I would imagine a BOTG company doesn't have a great amount of people. My company has 18 people. The small number of employees for BOTG companies may be one reason no one wants labor organization. I feel I take better care of my guys than any labor union would.


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## ALS9386

Well the conversation was like this, "after speaking to other vendors, I come to find out no one else took the three dollar deal" I asked if they can raise the price a little bit and they said no. That that the new price for ny. So I told them I am no longer doing the inspections. All they said was "good luck with future endeavors" they really should not have those vendor conferences, so all the other vendors can meet and exchange numbers!


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## K&L preservation

idk how many vendors there were on the line but someone should of spoke up and said hey why dont we all stop working for peanuts and start a protest or stop working til they raise the prices.. if it was every vendor for the whole state then you could of maybe shut down production in that state.. gotta start somewhere

happy holidays everyone


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## Cleanupman

Irnhrse5 said:


> Aaron,
> Are any numbers available that show the number of employees a standard PPC has? I would imagine a BOTG company doesn't have a great amount of people. My company has 18 people. The small number of employees for BOTG companies may be one reason no one wants labor organization. I feel I take better care of my guys than any labor union would.


Everyone wants to look at this from the wrong perspective.
If the BOTG's would pull their heads out of their butts and STAND TOGETHER and quit being afraid this the industry would not be in the position it is today...after 2009 the members of NAMFS did a serious pyramiding of the Order Mills.
I'll say it again if everyone took a vacation at the same time the NAMC would be screwed..they could not mobilize quick enough to protect themselves from the fines they may incur...it would send a serious message to the clients..however, my belief has alway been the NAMC's are merely extension of the lenders...
As for counts, this is something we are attempting to do with a new ISTAR system that is being constructed(more on that to come after the first of the year). I currently know of about 50 companies that use day labor as needed, they have contracts with places like Labor Max, ManPower etc...
1. Having the labor organized is more than getting a fair number for the BOTG...
2. Regardless of what anyone wants to say, this industry is full of employees. The direction and control...ie; coming to your office and dictating how you operate your business...that is control...no other industry does that when they are audited you file out forms and file with notarized affidavits. We are audited by the USDA all the time ( we also have a farming operation) and they have never been to our farm or office for similar types of information SGP, LPS etc are demanding.
3. Organized labor would stop all the bulls***...wouldn't it be nice to have forums that have good things to talk about instead of how one of the NAMC tried to get over or how they drive our overhead up etc...It would STOP all these "mandatory Requirements" that seem to come out every time the NAMC discover a new revenue stream....the BC issue for example...I found a place online yesterday the conducts BC's...for $29.95 you can have UNLIMITED searches completed for THREE YEARS....so the NAMC's wanting 30-40 bucks a pop=revenue stream...let's look at your operation for a second...18 employees X $30= $540...that is a $510 profit on your company and every other check for three years was paid for by you...

Truth is I'm not real big on unions...however the reality is that a union is the only type of organization that has the where-with-all to assist in organizing.

Look at this way...various industries have unionized and then un-unionized I see this situation as no different. Once the organization process happens it stops the BS and there is always the threat of them stepping back into the picture so things tend to stay a little more balanced...
It would really be nice to actually be asked to review a clients contract that contained an element of "Mutuality of Agreement" in them...

Like I said this is more than just the BOTG wanting more money...if nothing comes out of organizing other than two things...standard minimums for services...not every company wanting something different...
second standard minimums for fees...those two things would rid the industry of the order mill business model...ie; a winterization minimum fee paid to the BOTG is 125...no one would be able to sub it out at $40...or anything less...
well...I also have issues with the lop-sided contracts, they never used to be this bad, but those are the type of issues that would be stopped...


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## thanohano44

Cleanupman said:


> Everyone wants to look at this from the wrong perspective.
> 
> If the BOTG's would pull their heads out of their butts and STAND TOGETHER and quit being afraid this the industry would not be in the position it is today...after 2009 the members of NAMFS did a serious pyramiding of the Order Mills.
> 
> I'll say it again if everyone took a vacation at the same time the NAMC would be screwed..they could not mobilize quick enough to protect themselves from the fines they may incur...it would send a serious message to the clients..however, my belief has alway been the NAMC's are merely extension of the lenders...
> 
> As for counts, this is something we are attempting to do with a new ISTAR system that is being constructed(more on that to come after the first of the year). I currently know of about 50 companies that use day labor as needed, they have contracts with places like Labor Max, ManPower etc...
> 
> 1. Having the labor organized is more than getting a fair number for the BOTG...
> 
> 2. Regardless of what anyone wants to say, this industry is full of employees. The direction and control...ie; coming to your office and dictating how you operate your business...that is control...no other industry does that when they are audited you file out forms and file with notarized affidavits. We are audited by the USDA all the time ( we also have a farming operation) and they have never been to our farm or office for similar types of information SGP, LPS etc are demanding.
> 
> 3. Organized labor would stop all the bulls***...wouldn't it be nice to have forums that have good things to talk about instead of how one of the NAMC tried to get over or how they drive our overhead up etc...It would STOP all these "mandatory Requirements" that seem to come out every time the NAMC discover a new revenue stream....the BC issue for example...I found a place online yesterday the conducts BC's...for $29.95 you can have UNLIMITED searches completed for THREE YEARS....so the NAMC's wanting 30-40 bucks a pop=revenue stream...let's look at your operation for a second...18 employees X $30= $540...that is a $510 profit on your company and every other check for three years was paid for by you...
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is I'm not real big on unions...however the reality is that a union is the only type of organization that has the where-with-all to assist in organizing.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at this way...various industries have unionized and then un-unionized I see this situation as no different. Once the organization process happens it stops the BS and there is always the threat of them stepping back into the picture so things tend to stay a little more balanced...
> 
> It would really be nice to actually be asked to review a clients contract that contained an element of "Mutuality of Agreement" in them...
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said this is more than just the BOTG wanting more money...if nothing comes out of organizing other than two things...standard minimums for services...not every company wanting something different...
> 
> second standard minimums for fees...those two things would rid the industry of the order mill business model...ie; a winterization minimum fee paid to the BOTG is 125...no one would be able to sub it out at $40...or anything less...
> 
> well...I also have issues with the lop-sided contracts, they never used to be this bad, but those are the type of issues that would be stopped...




There would still be BS under a union deal. You've got an agenda Aaron. Be real. How does this union deal reward Aaron? Could the union work? Yes. Can it fail? Yes. Are business owners willing to become government employees? In my opinion everyone who doesn't like how they're being treated should speak up. Get off from suckling the PP nipple. A lot of people in this industry seem to be suffering from tunnel vision. As if PP is the only thing out there you all can do. 

All a union does is force someone else to do their bidding with a non union owned business. F--k that. Those union c--ts didn't go through the heard ache, sacrifices and pay the price business owners did to start their business. I'll be damned if some other dips--t who has no skin in the game is going to tell me how to run my business. If they want to tell me how to run my business, they can buy it our undercut me and take the work. No problem.


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## BamaPPC

MHO - a union sounds great on the surface. Problem is, this isn't a specialized craft. There is no skill set to bargain with. There are plenty of people to take our place if we refuse to work. If there was a skill set they couldn't replace in a week, that'd be different.

would quality suffer for a while, sure, and that'd be OK with the order mills too. free work - chargebacks. if there was any one thing, we did, that required months to master, we'd have a bargaining chip. truth is, any knuckle dragging, hee-haw looking, craiglist hack with a pick-up truck and $500 worth of tools can get the job done. Can he do it to a professional standard? No, and they don't care. Which is why we are asked to wipe down mold with bleach. I've seen others repair roofs with nothing but shingles. even if there was rotten decking or no decking under those shingles. I've seen others screw sheets of plexiglas into openings where the window frames are missing.

I report those things, and nothing is done to correct it. Oh, they may issue a chargeback. But the issue isn't corrected...because they don't care. if it passes the HUD inspection - they're happy.

You can't bargain your skill as a grass cutter, or trash hauler. or lock changer. or roofer, or sheetrock mudder. the skills just aren't rare enough.

MHO


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## PropPresPro

thanohano44 said:


> . . .Get off from suckling the PP nipple. . .




:whistling2:


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## Craigslist Hack

BamaPPC said:


> MHO - a union sounds great on the surface. Problem is, this isn't a specialized craft. There is no skill set to bargain with. There are plenty of people to take our place if we refuse to work. If there was a skill set they couldn't replace in a week, that'd be different.
> 
> would quality suffer for a while, sure, and that'd be OK with the order mills too. free work - chargebacks. if there was any one thing, we did, that required months to master, we'd have a bargaining chip. truth is, any knuckle dragging, hee-haw looking, craiglist hack with a pick-up truck and $500 worth of tools can get the job done. Can he do it to a professional standard? No, and they don't care. Which is why we are asked to wipe down mold with bleach. I've seen others repair roofs with nothing but shingles. even if there was rotten decking or no decking under those shingles. I've seen others screw sheets of plexiglas into openings where the window frames are missing.
> 
> I report those things, and nothing is done to correct it. Oh, they may issue a chargeback. But the issue isn't corrected...because they don't care. if it passes the HUD inspection - they're happy.
> 
> You can't bargain your skill as a grass cutter, or trash hauler. or lock changer. or roofer, or sheetrock mudder. the skills just aren't rare enough.
> 
> MHO


I agree with all of this and I agree that some have an Agenda whether it is for personal gain or an anti establishment rebellion. Whatever it is clearly there is an agenda.

I suggest the following:



Assemble a roundtable of solid companies and experienced contractors
set up our own pricing guidelines and rule base
stick to it
Will there be yahoo's that go rogue or CL contractors? YES! Will they last? NO!


It wouldn't be that hard to create our own cost estimator and guidelines. The trick is getting the Nationals to accept it.


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## Wannabe

okay I am going to admit it... That I met with the Union last Thursday. I will shortly be re-entering the property preservation field as a union shop. I will be able to offer Union benefits in Union pay scales on every foreclosed home do every union member employee. non union employees will be offered the same pay scale but without the benefit package. 

everyone needs to ask themselves " is there a enough profit at the current pay scale to pay your employees a good rate let alone benefits?" 

When, not if, the Unions start servicing foreclosed homes then you will need to make a decision if you are going to jump on board or not.


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## Cleanupman

I keep hearing this...

You have an Agenda.....

Someone please explain it to me....I'm baffled as to what it is...

If you don't feel that this industry needs to be organized from the bottom up you need to go look in the mirror and have a conversation with the person staring at you...or get some psychologizing...

The top of the industry is organized or we would not have people In California getting work order for a company in Kentucky that received the work order form Michigan who got the work order from Ohio and the work is being completed in Oregon...get a grip...this is the work of a very organized group of people exploiting the labor...

If I have any agenda it is to get the BOTG treated fair by having legitimately accredited education and training programs that would eliminate the crap like NAMFS membership is stuffing down everyone throats...there is an agenda...

Funny when I reached out to NAMFS about their education they couldn't be bothered...once I do an article about how NAARPI has the only accredited education in the PPI, the Soprano looking goofball executive Mr. Miller wants to back door me with some backhanded legal mumbo-jumbo...

Funny how that works huh???

I have no agenda other than to stop the NAMFS membership from ripping off the BOTG's...

If anyone feels that's wrong then you have a serious problem or you're being paid by those that are doing the exploiting to attempt to steer the masses to believe everything is OK...and not for being a PP Contractor...

BTW...a union deal will reward me squat..I have nothing but fair treatment in the work place to gain...just like everyone else would...

The union is not going to demand that I open my office for inspection or demand my employees personal information, demand I show them show them how I keep my records etc....everyone is willing to roll over for these types of intrusions...please explain how a union is going to demand this type of action from someone????

As I said on the post...
............
Truth is I'm not real big on unions...however the reality is that a union is the only type of organization that has the where-with-all to assist in organizing....

Guess that part has been overlooked...


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## Coos-NH

Clearly this Unionization of the industry presents a daunting challenge to those who make their livelihood in mortgage field services. It appears that some proponents are under the impression that you simply join and the union negotiates a better situation for you. In any training or negotiation, the WIIFM method comes into play. (What's in it for me) You cannot bargain from a position of strength unless you have something to offer that the other side sees as better than the status quo. It will take a significant amount of dedication on the part of contractors to affect any change. There will be some who will choose not to be part of it. Should the union decide to strike, members will need to be prepared to fore-go any income for the duration. It will take a serious interest from the mortgage holders to affect changes. This is by no means an easy way to make things better and as stated will require dedication not merely participation.


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## Wannabe

Coos-NH,

Great post. I found my "meeting" very informative but riddled with misconceptions of how this industry "really works" since if you have not been in the industry there is no way to understand that P&P work is not a business, is not a job and ALL the rules are made by the Service Companies. 

As I understood....The Union will be becoming the new middleman. The existing Service Companies will be taken out of the picture on the Government Backed loans. The Union will provide the contractor the work site to go clean/trashout/mow etc etc and you will complete and invoice for those services. You invoice the hours plus actual expense (landfill, fuel and those pesky misc expenses we all incur). Each area is different on the payscale but for us it was $36/hr for labor per man and $48/hr for supervisor per hour. NOTE: this was the SHOP charge rate and not the laborer actual pay rate which was $16/hr plus $6.50/hr for benefits. The shop would still need to pay the unemployment and work comp out of the adjusted gross. 

On my restoration business we charge out at $44/hr for a tech and $52/hr for a supervisor. These are trained employees that have a lot of certifications and hard school time to qualify for this pay rate. The non-certified laborer gets a check for $12.00 hour, certified tech gets $16/hr and supv gets $18/hr. Everyone also gets profit sharing off of each job which normally equates to $2-5/hr. 

The reason why I quit the P&P business through service companies is I can't afford to pay anyone to help and after expenses there just wasn't much profit left over to justify doing it any longer. I DID NOT go to the Union to discuss BUT the Union called me since I am a VERY good friend of the union chief for the State L**** Union. I knew 2-3 years ago that they were pushing to enter this field. They were pushing for the same reason most people got into the P&P field---- Filler. After the Union saw how much money was left at a service company and not getting into the contractors hands they decided to really push for the Gov Backed Loans...NOW the Union is going to profit very handsomely off this BUT if the Hourly rate plus expense is paid out then the P&P Shop Owner will come out ok also.... I think.....

I am not qualified to say this is good. I have Never Ever been a Union member. Been asked 2x but never joined. 

Well I know that this is coming...when I don't know since nobody would say. Maybe Jan 1? Maybe 2020?


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## GTX63

This is an edited post from REOMadness in another thread-

"...if you have the equipment and/or skills to work in this industry then you have the ability to use them elsewhere to make a real living. You will have to go find the work instead of waiting for a nat or reg to drop it in your lap like most here do then whine when there is nothing to do. _Unfortunately this industry attacks people who can't do anything else so there will always be job insecurity_. "

A second post from Wannabe-

"...if you have not been in the industry there is no way to understand that _P&P work is not a business, is not a job_ and ALL the rules are made by the Service Companies. "

I have more open ended questions regarding organization/unions that I have answers. However, if a judge or a local hall seem to be the only answer to correcting the imbalance in this field, you had better start looking at your end game.


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## Trey9007

Wannabe said:


> Coos-NH,
> 
> 
> As I understood....The Union will be becoming the new middleman. The existing Service Companies will be taken out of the picture on the Government Backed loans. The Union will provide the contractor the work site to go clean/trashout/mow etc etc and you will complete and invoice for those services. You invoice the hours plus actual expense (landfill, fuel and those pesky misc expenses we all incur). Each area is different on the payscale but for us it was $36/hr for labor per man and $48/hr for supervisor per hour. NOTE: this was the SHOP charge rate and not the laborer actual pay rate which was $16/hr plus $6.50/hr for benefits. The shop would still need to pay the unemployment and work comp out of the adjusted gross.
> 
> .
> 
> Well I know that this is coming...when I don't know since nobody would say. Maybe Jan 1? Maybe 2020?


This post is meant to be helpful and not confrontational AT ALL. Im pretty knowledgable about labor unions, and what you describe here doesnt sound quite right. I think you are probably misunderstanding something, or just not describing the role of all the players correctly.

Unions dont have the legal ability to go out and secure service contracts. Which was my first flag something was a bit off with your post. What I think you are tyring to describe is that your company would be signing on to a multi-employer (aka an association like NECA) labor contract. Probably around 20 or so local companies, who would all share the same labor contract with a local labor union. One of those other employers is probably a large general contractor who wouldl be the one securing the PP work, and is who would be the new middleman, and is also the entity who wold get new profit from this deal. PP work secured by that general contractor would be subbed to you. You complete the work using workers who are members of the union, whom are paid whatever rate the contract states.

Does that sound right to you? Your post left the impression that it was the union going out and getting contracts and making profits like a business. Thats something that just can't happen. But is a VERY common myth with people who aren't familiar with labor unions.


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## Trey9007

thanohano44 said:


> There would still be BS under a union deal. You've got an agenda Aaron. Be real. How does this union deal reward Aaron? Could the union work? Yes. Can it fail? Yes. Are business owners willing to become government employees? In my opinion everyone who doesn't like how they're being treated should speak up. Get off from suckling the PP nipple. A lot of people in this industry seem to be suffering from tunnel vision. As if PP is the only thing out there you all can do.
> 
> All a union does is force someone else to do their bidding with a non union owned business. F--k that. Those union c--ts didn't go through the heard ache, sacrifices and pay the price business owners did to start their business. I'll be damned if some other dips--t who has no skin in the game is going to tell me how to run my business. If they want to tell me how to run my business, they can buy it our undercut me and take the work. No problem.


 
You say people who aren't happy should speak up. Unionizing is a form of speaking up. But yet you're making the claim someone has a hidden agenda for doing the very thing you say they should be doing, speaking up. Very confusiing.

You also make the claim that 'All a union does is force someone else to do their bidding with a non union owned business.' So u seem to acknowledge that PP nationals and middlemen companies would rather deal with compnies who have cheaper non union employees, and companies not stuck in a labor agreement that they can then control more. Well they have that now. Hows that been working out for this industry?


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## Wannabe

Trey,

I will be the 1st to admit that I dont know the inner workings of any union. I dont believe I missed anything of what I was told BUT that sure doesnt mean I was told everything... ?


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## Cleanupman

Wannabe said:


> Trey,
> 
> I will be the 1st to admit that I dont know the inner workings of any union. I dont believe I missed anything of what I was told BUT that sure doesnt mean I was told everything... ?


:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## JDRM

There is no union, and never will be. Certain people feel they are entitled, that is the real problem! Go elsewhere, find something else to do! 

Some insight to the union a few suggest...

http://www.iww.org/unions/dept600/iu690

http://www.iww.org/content/iww-solidarity-workers-iran

http://www.iww.org/content/iww-solidarity-workers-iran


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## Cleanupman

JDRM said:


> There is no union, and never will be. Certain people feel they are entitled, that is the real problem! Go elsewhere, find something else to do!
> 
> Some insight to the union a few suggest...
> 
> http://www.iww.org/unions/dept600/iu690
> 
> http://www.iww.org/content/iww-solidarity-workers-iran
> 
> http://www.iww.org/content/iww-solidarity-workers-iran


You have provided some examples of unions how is there "no union"????

Entitled is the brat kid that demand a pair of Air Jordans when mom and dad can only afford Keds and he trows a fit. or the 20-something on the other end of the phone demanding you return to the property as they can not see what you photos show and it is your responsibility to make them look good at their job....

People wanting to be treated fairly in the work place or be treated as a BUSINESS and not sub-standard employees working for less than minimum wage is a long way from being entitled....

This union issue in this industry has absolutely nothing to do with being entitled...


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## JDRM

No union in this industry.

Personally, I work with 3 nats and have none of the issues you speak of. Because I know what is expected and I do it the first time, and I get paid good to do it. I dont need a union in my pocket, and there will never be one to worry about in this industry. 

Unions are for employees, not businesses, so they can only negotiate fees, work issues, between the employer and employee. They would have no say in employer/ client matters. 

I swear I get dumber when I read alot of your posts and points! :whistling2:

And if you need a business consultant, you shouldn't be in business!


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## JDRM

And it has everything to do with being entitled...

You want to be in this business, but you dont like what some pay, or how they do business. So, you stomp your feet, and demand more. Nobody listens, so you want a union to get involved.....

Ever think about finding something else to do? Something that pays what you want? :whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## Cleanupman

:notworthy::notworthy:Mr. Know-it-all:notworthy::notworthy:


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## brm1109

I for one am against unions. Sure they may have had a place at one time but not anymore.
A few examples of unions in the past few years.
1. A city wanted to cut out uniform allowances for the pd, they also asked for them to pay 5% of the insurance or they would have to layoff the cops. Guess what, the union refused to budge so yes the cops got laid off.
2. Union demanded 8% raise and more benefits, the company said if they could not hold costs flat they would close the doors. Yup the union demanded the raise and went on strike for 3 days when the company would not agree. So after the 3 day strike, what happened? The company closed up.

As a business owner I would not pay a union for anything unless I was using union people.


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## bcollins

Ok I have been reading this post since it started and have questioned myself wether or not to reply so here is my two cents. A union , I nworked in a union environment for twenty years and just like this p&p work you take the good with the bad. The union protects the bad employee as the well as the good one. I don't see a union helping at all because it will cost money to run it so where is the money going to come from? If hud only allows x amount of dollars per year per property and that's all they are going to pay how can any organization help if they got there hand in the cookie jar. look like everyone here we all want more money and we all want to be treated fairly no question about that but what do you do when a regional or national sends work orders over that you cant complete cause theres no profit in them . They say the client wont pay any more you say you cant afford to do it at this price what happens another contractor is found and you loose work. My point is this is controlled by people that know what they are doing to be profitable they don't care if your company makes it or not. The only answer to fix this is the individual has to be prepared to say no and continue to find work elsewhere beside this industry. look our country is broke we all know it so where is all the money going to come from to be profitable.Unions will not help the situation. The problem is and always will be the middle man.


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## Wannabe

Heres my take on this: The middleman is not the problem but the "number" of middlemen that robs the pay before it gets to the contractor. In the mid '90s we were paying our subs $30 cyd, $50+ for yards, $75 wint and/or $1200 to complete all initial services. WE GOT IT DONE and our crews made a very comfortable living, made housepayments, took vacations, put money in savings...basically done business correctly and reaped the rewards of hard work.

Through the years the reimbursements increased and so did the contractors pay. We never had difficulty paying our subs, all subs were licensed, insured AND bonded. Subs were paid on the 15th and 30th 2 weeks after the work was invoiced. 

Flash forward to 2011:

The first tier middlemen (Mcs, SG, LPS etc) reduced reimbursements to lower than mid '90's rates. 1000's of untrained or improperly trained contractors AND home office staff that has even less training (1/2 the h.o. reps couldnt even hang a picture without hitting thier thumb with the hammer) and these Home Office techs are telling YOU the professional how to do your job correctly while all the time risking YOUR business.

I dont think there is 1 man, woman or child on this forum that doesnt know the system is BROKE. 

This saying keeps coming up...: If you keep doing what you have always done then you will always get what you have got.

I was blessed with enough forethought to know what was coming and got out of all Service Company work and only do Broker and private party work BUT I still care about this "business". 

I DO NOT see the business model changing from current day methods UNLESS something drastically changes the P&P landscape. I am willing to change the first tier middleman from SG, MCS etc to the Labor Union...I dont see it getting any worse than it is now unless...you dont join and it turns out to be a good thing.

JMO


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## thanohano44

Wannabe said:


> Heres my take on this: The middleman is not the problem but the "number" of middlemen that robs the pay before it gets to the contractor. In the mid '90s we were paying our subs $30 cyd, $50+ for yards, $75 wint and/or $1200 to complete all initial services. WE GOT IT DONE and our crews made a very comfortable living, made housepayments, took vacations, put money in savings...basically done business correctly and reaped the rewards of hard work.
> 
> 
> 
> Through the years the reimbursements increased and so did the contractors pay. We never had difficulty paying our subs, all subs were licensed, insured AND bonded. Subs were paid on the 15th and 30th 2 weeks after the work was invoiced.
> 
> 
> 
> Flash forward to 2011:
> 
> 
> 
> The first tier middlemen (Mcs, SG, LPS etc) reduced reimbursements to lower than mid '90's rates. 1000's of untrained or improperly trained contractors AND home office staff that has even less training (1/2 the h.o. reps couldnt even hang a picture without hitting thier thumb with the hammer) and these Home Office techs are telling YOU the professional how to do your job correctly while all the time risking YOUR business.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think there is 1 man, woman or child on this forum that doesnt know the system is BROKE.
> 
> 
> 
> This saying keeps coming up...: If you keep doing what you have always done then you will always get what you have got.
> 
> 
> 
> I was blessed with enough forethought to know what was coming and got out of all Service Company work and only do Broker and private party work BUT I still care about this "business".
> 
> 
> 
> I DO NOT see the business model changing from current day methods UNLESS something drastically changes the P&P landscape. I am willing to change the first tier middleman from SG, MCS etc to the Labor Union...I dont see it getting any worse than it is now unless...you dont join and it turns out to be a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> JMO



Amen.


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## thanohano44

bcollins said:


> Ok I have been reading this post since it started and have questioned myself wether or not to reply so here is my two cents. A union , I nworked in a union environment for twenty years and just like this p&p work you take the good with the bad. The union protects the bad employee as the well as the good one. I don't see a union helping at all because it will cost money to run it so where is the money going to come from? If hud only allows x amount of dollars per year per property and that's all they are going to pay how can any organization help if they got there hand in the cookie jar. look like everyone here we all want more money and we all want to be treated fairly no question about that but what do you do when a regional or national sends work orders over that you cant complete cause theres no profit in them . They say the client wont pay any more you say you cant afford to do it at this price what happens another contractor is found and you loose work. My point is this is controlled by people that know what they are doing to be profitable they don't care if your company makes it or not. The only answer to fix this is the individual has to be prepared to say no and continue to find work elsewhere beside this industry. look our country is broke we all know it so where is all the money going to come from to be profitable.Unions will not help the situation. The problem is and always will be the middle man.



If the union rates are approved. I don't see a problem. All government backed loans are going to be serviced by unions. Which means the negotiations have been accepted. This is a win win for the banks. More smoke screens. Showing the sheeple that the banks really do care and are using the blue collar workers of America to turn this around.


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## idaho

I really feel you guys are wrong here, I see there being a lot of coverage area issues in my area since they changed prices. the weak are getting killed and the smart are taking few orders trying to overwhelm the weak and run them out(let them have all they can handle). we need those that don't know the difference between fixed cost and cogs to get out of the way for people trying to run a business. no unions, hell if eo insurance would just triple in cost across the board for everyone, we would have more control in our own workload and what we get paid ... beer money biz owners would just go away


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## thanohano44

[Q UOTE=idaho;52936]I really feel you guys are wrong here, I see there being a lot of coverage area issues in my area since they changed prices. the weak are getting killed and the smart are taking few orders trying to overwhelm the weak and run them out(let them have all they can handle). we need those that don't know the difference between fixed cost and cogs to get out of the way for people trying to run a business. no unions, hell if eo insurance would just triple in cost across the board for everyone, we would have more control in our own workload and what we get paid ... beer money biz owners would just go away[/QUOTE]



It's all a big circle jerk. There's so any scenarios in which the union can work and also fail. I'm not for a union. But I can also see it happening. Just look at the direction this has been heading over the last few years. The entitlement class is growing.


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## GTX63

idaho said:


> we need those that don't know the difference between fixed cost and cogs to get out of the way for people trying to run a business. no unions, hell if eo insurance would just triple in cost across the board for everyone, we would have more control in our own workload and what we get paid ... beer money biz owners would just go away


The ones who don't know the difference are moresoe the clients.
It doesn't matter what the insurance costs are if regionals throw subs on a 60 day probation wagon, then cut them loose and hire another batch. 
I highly doubt the winterizations we have seen so far with iced up water heaters and freeze damaged toilets are being done by guys with 7K policies.


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## Trey9007

bcollins said:


> Ok I have been reading this post since it started and have questioned myself wether or not to reply so here is my two cents. A union , I nworked in a union environment for twenty years and just like this p&p work you take the good with the bad. The union protects the bad employee as the well as the good one. I don't see a union helping at all because it will cost money to run it so where is the money going to come from? If hud only allows x amount of dollars per year per property and that's all they are going to pay how can any organization help if they got there hand in the cookie jar. look like everyone here we all want more money and we all want to be treated fairly no question about that but what do you do when a regional or national sends work orders over that you cant complete cause theres no profit in them . They say the client wont pay any more you say you cant afford to do it at this price what happens another contractor is found and you loose work. My point is this is controlled by people that know what they are doing to be profitable they don't care if your company makes it or not. The only answer to fix this is the individual has to be prepared to say no and continue to find work elsewhere beside this industry. look our country is broke we all know it so where is all the money going to come from to be profitable.Unions will not help the situation. The problem is and always will be the middle man.




1. After 20 years, you should know that unions are funded by their members, and that dues are usually about 1.5% of wages. If HUD were the employer and had to actually negotiate with the union. The middlemen would be out of the picture. This scenario could be good for both HUD and the guy doing the work. If a union took the current prices HUD pays out and negitated 5% less than what they are paying nationals, most, if not all, of the guys doing the work would see massive increases in pay. Currently, the price HUD pays out is cut down by about 40% by the time it reaches the guy doing the work.

2. The scenario you mentioned about a contractor losing out on work happens right now. No scenario will ever change the possibility of this happening to a contractor. BUt what unions can do is limit the ability of contractors passing down low rates to guys doing the work. If theres a union and the company wants to under bid to get work, that fine. Only the employer would have to find other ways, besides lowering wages, to make up for the cheap rates hes bidding. Some companies actually do this succesfully by beeing innovative and finding ways to things more effecient(not cheaper) than their competition and gives them the ability to under bid, responsibly.

3. You mention the middleman being the problem. I mostly agree with that statement. IMO middlemen themselves aren't the problem. Middlemen who skim from the money allocated for the actual work in order to cover their admin cost. They do this instead of actually charging for the admin services they are providing. This is irresponsible. I call it that because it kills an industry. For the price of a $100 grass cut, a bank gets 3 or 4 levels of management (via middlemen companies) plus a grass cut. That's a helluva deal, and it destroys the value of the craft. If those 3 or 4 middlemen companies what actually charge for their service (paper pushing), middlemen what be good for the industry. But instead they simply skim. And because they have that ability to skim there is ABSOLUTELY NO INCENTIVE for them to raise the rates they charge the banks, or the rates they pay out to workers. Why would they care if they're getting $100 vs $90 for the same task. They simply skim $15 when its $100, and when the price is lowered to $90 they just contiue to skim $15 and pass the loss down to the next level of the pyramid.

Unionizing removes the guy actually doing the work from the pyramid. Workers become their own entity. That entity is called Labor. Labor that sits ready to serve the PP industry, by providing PP companies with good, quality craftsmanship.


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## Trey9007

To the guy up thread who claims HE's the one who has guys best interest. Assuming you use subs wouldn't your guys interest be served best, by you helping them get their own contract instead of you continuing to skim 10%,15% or whatever and then passing it down to them.

If union dues are 1.5% of wages vs you/middlemen skimming 10% or 15% from every job, which scenario serves your guys better.

If you're a middleman skimming off the top of prices you don't even set, what incentive do you have to bargain higher rates that you COULD pass down to your guys. To take it a step further, lets forget about incentives for a second. What ABILITY do you/middlemen have to bargain better rates for their guys. Middlemen are simply in NO position to bargain. Do you honestly think this is in the best interest of 'your' guys?

Wouldn't the option, of your guys being represented by people who's sole purpose is to give them a real voice in their industry serve 'your' guys' interest better vs Working under people who dont set their own prices, are in no real position to bargain better rates/wages, and are people who hav no real incentive to improve the rates/wages paid to thr guys who actually do the work.

Needless to say, I disagree with your post.


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## JDRM

What is it about the fact that unions are for EMPLOYEES that you people dont understand???? Do you all want to be employees ???? There is no union that works for a business owner, they represent employees.........


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## JDRM

Funny thing is the union pushers don't even follow their own rules.

Cleanup man : Everyone should be licensed in each state you do business in, are you licensed in the states you do business in? Well no, but everyone else should be, im excluding myself........:whistling2:


Practice what you preach and people will take you more seriously!


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## Gypsos

JDRM said:


> What is it about the fact that unions are for EMPLOYEES that you people dont understand???? Do you all want to be employees ???? There is no union that works for a business owner, they represent employees.........


Unions can also help the businesses that the employees work for. The local carpenters union I worked with actively pursued jobs and would bring me in to close the deal with estimating and pricing for my company. It was a win for both of us. They were able to keep union members employed and I effectively had a small staff of people working full time to bring work to me that I did not have to go out and find. 

They were also very helpful with training and supervision on the job sites. If I was worried that we had too many apprentices and not enough journeyman they would hold extra training for the apprentices to bring them up to speed faster in areas I pointed out as weaknesses and they even provided extra training foremen on the job site to help to supervise the apprentices to make sure we stayed on schedule.

If a union can do that for my company right now then show me where to sign up.


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## thanohano44

Gypsos said:


> Unions can also help the businesses that the employees work for. The local carpenters union I worked with actively pursued jobs and would bring me in to close the deal with estimating and pricing for my company. It was a win for both of us. They were able to keep union members employed and I effectively had a small staff of people working full time to bring work to me that I did not have to go out and find.
> 
> They were also very helpful with training and supervision on the job sites. If I was worried that we had too many apprentices and not enough journeyman they would hold extra training for the apprentices to bring them up to speed faster in areas I pointed out as weaknesses and they even provided extra training foremen on the job site to help to supervise the apprentices to make sure we stayed on schedule.
> 
> If a union can do that for my company right now then show me where to sign up.



Unions are great. They can submit higher bids and get it approved. No sweat. Wish we had that bargaining power. Lol

The great thing about unions is that they ensure everyone is qualified to do the work. Unlike the nationals and regionals. So I can see why the fed backed servicers would be more enticed by this than messing with more of the same that we have. 

Since 2004 quality has nearly disappeared. I know of a former poster here who talks a great game, while his subs 3000 miles away does terrible hack work.


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## BRADSConst

thanohano44 said:


> Unions are great.
> 
> The great thing about unions is that they ensure everyone is qualified to do the work


 Really???:blink: This is sarcasm I hope. After years with Cat and then Deere, I can assure you that not everyone was qualified to perform the work required and the unions protected those "unqualified" people......

Please don't tell me your "R" is becoming a "d" :no::no::no:


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## thanohano44

BRADSConst said:


> Really???:blink: This is sarcasm I hope. After years with Cat and then Deere, I can assure you that not everyone was qualified to perform the work required and the unions protected those "unqualified" people......
> 
> Please don't tell me your "R" is becoming a "d" :no::no::no:



B-Rad,

I don't know how to put those smiley faces to show my sarcasm like you pros.


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## Trey9007

JDRM said:


> What is it about the fact that unions are for EMPLOYEES that you people dont understand???? Do you all want to be employees ???? There is no union that works for a business owner, they represent employees.........


Your right, unions are for employees. But what I think your missing is the fact what people WANT to be (businessses or employees) has very little to do with what people really are.

Contractor or employee are classifications of RELATIONSHIPs and not classifications of an individual. The type of relationship you have with the other party is all that matters. What you call or consider yourself to be means absolutely nothing. Apparently, many of the relationships in the PP pyramid scheme resemble more of an employer - employee relationship, and not a contractor - subcontractor relationship. Im sure most people here would love to be a true 1099er. Instead, in many cases, the worse case scenario is happening. People are given the liabilities of a subcontractor, but are treated as employees, and there's the problem.

You asked what do people want. I think most people simply want whats best for themselves and their family. Being a contractor in name only is not working out for many people. Its not good for the individual, and IMO its not good for an industry, or our country.. Doing this creates a group of second class,in regard to labor laws and worker rights. I call it 'The Legal Illegal' worker. Legal citizens who are illegally classified and working as contractors. Companies use these workers for the same reasons they use illegal undocumented workers. Both are used to create a cheaper, substandard, labor force, which eventually causes the stanadards for all workers to go lower.


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## JDRM

You hit the nail on the head Trey, if people want to be employees, then go get a job. I know I get work orders emailed with due dates, I schedule my work accordingly, I use all my own tools and equipment. I would never for a minute think I was an employee. I dont punch a time clock, nobody tells me what hours to work, nobody pays for tools, equipment, labor, etc., nobody is up my a$$ all day everyday. I dont get insurance, pension, or paid vacation from my clients. How am I an employee?

The preservation industry is made up of small business owners, alot have other business as well. Lawn accounts, landscaping, snow, Handyman, specialty trades, etc. 

Now, we have a bunch of newbies, or en-titlists, late to the party, with the employee mentality that want to change things, like I said before, it wont happen anyway, we are all wasting our time even discussing it....lol :thumbsup:


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## Trey9007

JDRM said:


> You hit the nail on the head Trey, if people want to be employees, then go get a job. I know I get work orders emailed with due dates, I schedule my work accordingly, I use all my own tools and equipment. I would never for a minute think I was an employee. I dont punch a time clock, nobody tells me what hours to work, nobody pays for tools, equipment, labor, etc., nobody is up my a$$ all day everyday. I dont get insurance, pension, or paid vacation from my clients. How am I an employee?
> 
> The preservation industry is made up of small business owners, alot have other business as well. Lawn accounts, landscaping, snow, Handyman, specialty trades, etc.
> 
> Now, we have a bunch of newbies, or en-titlists, late to the party, with the employee mentality that want to change things, like I said before, it wont happen anyway, we are all wasting our time even discussing it....lol :thumbsup:


I really dont see how you can lay any blame on the new guys. The system breaks down at the point where the middlemen highest up the food chain, start adding ridiculous requiements. They usually add these requirements so that their butt is covered if something goes wrong. Problem with this is that those requirements, usually add an element of control to the work order and the relationship.

Then theres the so called small businesses. How many of these businesses actually set their own prices. Sure they set the rates they pay out. But most have little to no say on what they are charging. How many actually have a copy of signed contracts with the contractors they pull work from.

You call the small businesses, I call them middle management. Managers who manage a territory, are given a budget, and manage the workforce. Just about every recruiter you talk to justifys their rates by comparing their pay to other occupations that are held by employees.

New guys are not the cause. They are the effect.


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