# Stop embarrassing yourselves



## brm1109

Please understand that we are professionals with all the required tools and insurance and licenses to perform our trade.
Please do not call us asking us to do $20.00 grass cuts, $3.00 inspections, $40.00 winterizations and $20.00 CYD trashouts. You see, since we do carry all of our licenses and insurance there is no way of us working for that and making a living.
Here is a thought for you, the company that is 2 or 3 time zones away from us. If you don't have staff in a state then don't offer to cover it hoping that some poor slob will work for you s#&t wages, unless of course you are a true national and not just subbing from a sub. Either get an office or maybe you come out here and do the work yourself.
However on a positive note, we are waiting for when your order mill can't get quality work done and then we will be there to clean up the messes at much better pay.
SO please unless you pay decent wages, DO NOT EVEN CALL!!!


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## REOmadness

I bet over half the members here work for that or less. No matte how much yall complain about it there is someone who will work for that.


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## Craigslist Hack

REOmadness said:


> I bet over half the members here work for that or less. No matte how much yall complain about it there is someone who will work for that.


You couldn't be more right. I have posted about companies sucking or screwing us and received a PM that same day from this very site someone asking if that company is hiring.


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## BPWY

That is what has allowed this industry to last as long as it has. 

Folks that loose their $35k a year job hear those rates and being completely clueless about what goes into a business think they will be shooting a fat pig and sign up. 
Only later realizing they've gone totally broke with no hope of every paying the taxes on their big killing. 
And along comes the next craigslist wonder person to fill the slot. 
lather, rinse repeat ad nauseam.


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## cover2

My response to a company requesting our services.
*Thanks for your interest in us however we are a PROFESSIONAL company that pays taxes, carries liability insurance, pays workers compensation to the state of Ohio. We never have nor will we ever cut a lawn for $20 much less an acre 2 feet high. Nor will we remove debris for $18 a yard. You are looking for a teenager with a push mower and a gas can and no overhead or the junk collector with a beat up truck that has no idea what it costs to run a business. I am not going to cut 4 lawns to pay for a background check unless your company would submit to a background check as well. I know what HUD allowable is and I will not let ANY company take advantage of my company. Good luck finding professional companies that will work for your compensation level. *
Just sent this out today, think I will get a response?


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## BPWY

Oh yeah, you'll get a response............. it'll sound a whole lot like a group of crickets.


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## cover2

BPWY said:


> Oh yeah, you'll get a response............. it'll sound a whole lot like a group of crickets.


 Those crickets are really loud today I can hear them especially well.:whistling2:


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## cover2

brm1109 said:


> Please understand that we are professionals with all the required tools and insurance and licenses to perform our trade.
> Please do not call us asking us to do $20.00 grass cuts, $3.00 inspections, $40.00 winterizations and $20.00 CYD trashouts. You see, since we do carry all of our licenses and insurance there is no way of us working for that and making a living.
> Here is a thought for you, the company that is 2 or 3 time zones away from us. If you don't have staff in a state then don't offer to cover it hoping that some poor slob will work for you s#&t wages, unless of course you are a true national and not just subbing from a sub. Either get an office or maybe you come out here and do the work yourself.
> However on a positive note, we are waiting for when your order mill can't get quality work done and then we will be there to clean up the messes at much better pay.
> SO please unless you pay decent wages, DO NOT EVEN CALL!!!


 Good post I think we should all copy and paste this to every Craigs List ad in our local areas looking for contractors. Hey its a start.


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## Prather Guy

*Reality*

I've been following this post & many other for a while & have learned a lot from you. I don't normally just jump into the sh-t feet first, but this topic is so true.

Reality is that I'm a small mom & pop type of company (actually just me with other resources when necessary) that can do some of the work at the lower prices. I suspect that a large part of this audience is in a similar situation. Yes You can always find a person to do the work at lower payouts - though I think there is a limit on the type of work required - acre grass cuts I refuse to do for the standard payouts.

So "how do we stop embarrassing ourselves"

Does anybody have a breakdown on this forum as to the size or tier level of the members? Some are high up with direct connections. Others, like me are "bottom" levels. 

Just thought we'd start a conversation since this topic is still open. No disrespect meant in anything implied or said. Just thought we should figure out if there is a way of addressing this or this is the way it is


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## Racerx

Prather Guy said:


> I've been following this post & many other for a while & have learned a lot from you. I don't normally just jump into the sh-t feet first, but this topic is so true.
> 
> Reality is that I'm a small mom & pop type of company (actually just me with other resources when necessary) that can do some of the work at the lower prices. I suspect that a large part of this audience is in a similar situation. Yes You can always find a person to do the work at lower payouts - though I think there is a limit on the type of work required - acre grass cuts I refuse to do for the standard payouts.
> 
> So "how do we stop embarrassing ourselves"
> 
> Does anybody have a breakdown on this forum as to the size or tier level of the members? Some are high up with direct connections. Others, like me are "bottom" levels.
> 
> Just thought we'd start a conversation since this topic is still open. No disrespect meant in anything implied or said. Just thought we should figure out if there is a way of addressing this or this is the way it is


First of all let me say I appreciate your honesty, most people will never admit to being one of the "lower tier" contractors on the site for fear of being bashed so kudos to you.
I'll try to answer your question from my experience and maybe it can help you or someone else view things in a different light.
I started in PP four years ago (don't ask how?, I don't know) but I'm actually a general contractor by trade so when things would get tight in PP I could and have frequentley escaped back into that when I needed in order to avoid 20.00 cuts and 18.00 debris removals,honestley I have'nt done any preservation work in about 2-3 months for any national or regional.

When we are out conducting business rarely do I shake a hand or speak to someone without passing one of our cards to them especially realtors,by doing that and networking with friends ( don't take this the wrong way but churches are goldmines!) and colleagues from every aspect of business we have come to the attention of a couple of local banks that will call us directly to handle their properties ....Diversify spend the time you would losing money on a 20.00 cut and get out and market your company...


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## BamaPPC

I work directly for a National. I have never worked for a regional. I have four trucks. Three field crews and myself. I pay taxes (i hate the IRS ) I have all the insurances required (damn that's a lot of money)

I refuse to work for less than I can make a profit from. I turn down quite a few work orders every month. They keep cutting my bids, I send the order back. I have a notepad file that has several blocks of text that we use on every order. One is -

"I do not authorize anyone to alter the wording or decrease the amount of my bids without my prior approval. If bids are changed without approval, bids become void and are subject to refusal. 
Yard Maintenence bids are valid for 15 days. After which I reserve the right to re-submit bids due to growth of grass and or shrubs."

I also have a standard response for the regionals that send me emails looking for "Qualified Contractor" in my area - 

"First, I want to thank you for reaching out to us. We are very interested in expanding our work in ______________. We are an experienced P&P vendor. We have been performing P&P work since 2008. We are capable of performing most any task. We have three work crews. All our vehicles have generators, air compressors, and all the tools required. 

While I am interested in expanding our work load in our area, we would need to talk about the pricing _____ is offering. To save a little time here, and maybe a lot of work for the both of us, I am including with this reply the level of payment we are willing to accept for a couple of the services you mentioned. If these are acceptable, then we may be able to negotiate pricing for the services you would need us to perform.

These prices are flat fee – no discount:"

I usually don't get a reply. I like my pricing may be too high. This is how you stop embarrassing yourself. Stand up. Ask for what you think the job is worth, don't cave to the "you won't get any more work" threat. Listen to me, if you are going to go broke, do it sitting on your couch, or fishing at the lake. Not doing this work. As for them not giving you any more work...good...unless its for enough money that you can make a profit.


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## garylaps

I got into this because I almost had to to avoid foreclosure myself. The construction trade dropped of the face of the planet and still hasn't returned in my area. In that time since (three years) I've learned alot, and alot the hard way...As the economy rebounds these regionals will wither and die because NOONE can work with proper tools, ins., tax obligations, ect. for long at rock bottom pricing. I have learned how to price bids to be able to get the work and make a profit with the nationals (some are better than others). That is what any business has to do or they won't be around long. There IS money to be made on almost EVERY job. I speak from the pp side here. Missing light fixtures, handrails, floor vents, other things that you can put into the "hazards" catagory are overlooked alot. Things like bidding for gutters and damage mitigation are ALWAYS looked at by their clients. Spend the extra time on the initial secure and "find the $" and bid a reasonable price to make a proffit. 
Every one of these national Co's operate different and you must find out how they operate. Being in a rural area has been a boon for me as I have little competition, my situation may be unique to this business in general as I work for a national that is CONSTANTLY emailing or phoning with stupid questions and asking for pics I have already submitted (siblings)...Unlike the other national that I can't even get any cube monkey to answer the phone (SGP). They ALL will screw you over if you miss something so take your time and document EVERYTHING.
I really miss my 7:00 to 3:30 job, my life when it was mine...It's just hard to start at the bottom again in the "real world".


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## GTX63

garylaps said:


> There IS money to be made on almost EVERY job. I speak from the pp side here. Missing light fixtures, handrails, floor vents, other things that you can put into the "hazards" catagory are overlooked alot. Things like bidding for gutters and damage mitigation are ALWAYS looked at by their clients. Spend the extra time on the initial secure and "find the $" and bid a reasonable price to make a proffit.


The first two photos below are of a "handrail/guardrail" that a contractor put up on a 225K property. That is within the guidelines of the lender and we find it all the time. The third photo is how we found the railing when we did a QC on the property a month later. The realtor got tired of showing the property and hearing "WTF?" everytime a prospective buyer walked around the back, and tore it down. Note the easily accessible debris below the deck that was never removed.

Kudos to you for doing what it took to get yourself back up off the floor and take care of your family. Many others just like you just stay down and quit. I've been there as well.

I couldn't do proper work for what the Nationals wanted to pay for it. What the pictures show is pretty standard under most Preservation allowables and considered "easy money." I would be embarrassed to have my name on a monstrosity like that. Does anyone believe the new homeowner would hire them based on what they saw of that handrail setup? Would anyone put their sign in the front yard "Railings by Smith & Sons"? 

The Nationals speak out of the side of their mouth as they demand the best companies yet pay 3rd tier rates. They snag good quality contractors in their nets who may be highly valued in the private sector, yet pick them apart like apprentice newbs on the simplest jobs with no option but to complete hack work for the price. I don't expect this to stop anytime soon; it was around before the nationals came to be, they just learned how to take advantage of it.


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## Prather Guy

I would hope that most of this audience knows that this is NOT to code, regardless of what the payout is. So - who is the accountable party - the sub / contractor doing the work or the issuer of the work order? 
I may do lower tier pricing - but no way would I even do that


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## Gypsos

Yes, not to code here. There is no mid rail and I doubt it will withstand 200 lbs of lateral force. 

However, I would have reported is as torn down and bid to install a new one correctly.


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## GTX63

In most areas that I am familiar with, the contractor carries the responsibility. See a trend going on there? Even if the national is cited, it all rolls downhill.
Typically when we report work like that, the contractor that did it is belly up or long gone, so the work is paid for twice or just allowed to sit.

I've posted the photo below before. That porch is from early 2013. Probably 75' of untreated pine. A turn of the century mid level home that now looks like the manager's office for a hillbilly trailer park. Somebody jumped at the payout for that much porch but I doubt they stapled their business card to the railing.
The safeguards or AFAS will gladly pay out for something like that and ding you for a qtip behind the toilet. If you are a willing party to this, your are part of the problem. I laid down with dogs and I woke up with fleas and now everyone is gone but the fleas.


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## garylaps

GTX63 said:


> In most areas that I am familiar with, the contractor carries the responsibility. See a trend going on there? Even if the national is cited, it all rolls downhill.
> Typically when we report work like that, the contractor that did it is belly up or long gone, so the work is paid for twice or just allowed to sit.
> 
> I've posted the photo below before. That porch is from early 2013. Probably 75' of untreated pine. A turn of the century mid level home that now looks like the manager's office for a hillbilly trailer park. Somebody jumped at the payout for that much porch but I doubt they stapled their business card to the railing.
> The safeguards or AFAS will gladly pay out for something like that and ding you for a qtip behind the toilet. If you are a willing party to this, your are part of the problem. I laid down with dogs and I woke up with fleas and now everyone is gone but the fleas.


You don't get what I'm trying to say...Maybe the point isn't understood. The bank or property owner has a responsibility to insure the saftey of those that come into contact with the property. This is a SAFETY issue nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure that whoever put up that handrail made some good money (although they didn't do it right and are liable for their work) I'm sure whoever buys this property will take something like that down and assume the responsability to make a better rail, or not. I'm sure the broker doesn't like it but that's not the point. There is money to be made with just this type of safety issue. I just did an interior rail around a staircase using 2x4 top and bottom rail and plywood inbetween. Attractive? no. In my real life I was an interior design tech and finish carpenter, that's not my job anymore. My job is a pp contractor, I deal with damage mitigation and liability issues. There is money to be made. Did I embarass myself? No, I made good money


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## GTX63

Sorry Gary, I did understand what you were trying to say. I've just run into a lot of work like the above photos lately and I took the thread off the beaten path. Your handrail above is not part of the problem. However, I'd like to think that if a lender contacted folks on this forum and requested a bid to install porch/deck/ stair rails, most would be giving legitimate estimates with treated/preformed/legit materials for the job, and prices to match. Unfortunately,while these companies tout professionalism and quality, the truth is it is a race to the bottom and there are plenty of folks chasing from behind.


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## Prather Guy

Out of curiosity - if somebody hurts themselves based on the railing standard used - who is liable? If an inspector sees that while being built, who gets the violation?


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## Racerx

Prather Guy said:


> Out of curiosity - if somebody hurts themselves based on the railing standard used - who is liable? If an inspector sees that while being built, who gets the violation?


 That can be summed up rather easily...Who put it up?.....


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## cover2

Racerx said:


> That can be summed up rather easily...Who put it up?.....


 Hence your 1m liability and the nationals putting as many layers between themselves and the botg contractor.


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## Prather Guy

Not to open a can of worms, but is there an issue here? I know that nobody from this forum would do the railings that way, but what is the difference between this issue & the back feeding topic, (which has had heated discussions past & present).

Don't crucify me too much, but I'd rather do a back feed than a railing per the "standard" that way.


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## Racerx

Prather Guy said:


> Not to open a can of worms, but is there an issue here? I know that nobody from this forum would do the railings that way, but what is the difference between this issue & the back feeding topic, (which has had heated discussions past & present).
> 
> Don't crucify me too much, but I'd rather do a* back feed than a railing per* the "standard" that way.


I dunno about that one,a railing is'nt gonna burn a house to the ground or electrocute someone..:icon_wink:


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## BRADSConst

Racerx said:


> That can be summed up rather easily...Who put it up?.....


Exactly! :thumbsup:


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## npm

Prather Guy said:


> Not to open a can of worms, but is there an issue here? I know that nobody from this forum would do the railings that way, but what is the difference between this issue & the back feeding topic, (which has had heated discussions past & present).
> 
> Don't crucify me too much, but I'd rather do a back feed than a railing per the "standard" that way.


WHAAAT!!! Balls of rubber filled with blanks.


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## npm

GTX63 said:


> In most areas that I am familiar with, the contractor carries the responsibility. See a trend going on there? Even if the national is cited, it all rolls downhill.
> Typically when we report work like that, the contractor that did it is belly up or long gone, so the work is paid for twice or just allowed to sit.
> 
> I've posted the photo below before. That porch is from early 2013. Probably 75' of untreated pine. A turn of the century mid level home that now looks like the manager's office for a hillbilly trailer park. Somebody jumped at the payout for that much porch but I doubt they stapled their business card to the railing.
> The safeguards or AFAS will gladly pay out for something like that and ding you for a qtip behind the toilet. If you are a willing party to this, your are part of the problem. I laid down with dogs and I woke up with fleas and now everyone is gone but the fleas.


That's acceptable from all clients because they don't want/care to "understand code" neither does the bank. Bottom line.....we're not liable but we "control" you mentality. I love making new friends with code officers


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## Gypsos

GTX63 said:


>


For something like this I would have looked at the ground to see if we could sink 4x4 posts to attach the rails to. It would be code compliant and not damage the structure like this one did.


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## Prather Guy

Being fairly new at this, the way I've read some of the response, the sub / contractor is responsible for liability & what ever else may come back to haunt them. Regardless whether the work order request is code complaint or not, the bank & issuer of the work order has NO stake in the work order nor liability risks. 

Is that correct?


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## Wannabe

Inspector AND contractor is liable.


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## mtmtnman

npm said:


> That's acceptable from all clients because they don't want/care to "understand code" neither does the bank. Bottom line.....we're not liable but we "control" you mentality. I love making new friends with code officers



Unless their is a city code that place is likely in line with the UBC without the half assed railing. If i remember correct UBC for safety rail is over 30".....


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## Coos-NH

mtmtnman said:


> Unless their is a city code that place is likely in line with the UBC without the half assed railing. If i remember correct UBC for safety rail is over 30".....



You are correct sir! :thumbup:


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## TKOPP

Racerx said:


> First of all let me say I appreciate your honesty, most people will never admit to being one of the "lower tier" contractors on the site for fear of being bashed so kudos to you.
> I'll try to answer your question from my experience and maybe it can help you or someone else view things in a different light.
> I started in PP four years ago (don't ask how?, I don't know) but I'm actually a general contractor by trade so when things would get tight in PP I could and have frequentley escaped back into that when I needed in order to avoid 20.00 cuts and 18.00 debris removals,honestley I have'nt done any preservation work in about 2-3 months for any national or regional.
> 
> When we are out conducting business rarely do I shake a hand or speak to someone without passing one of our cards to them especially realtors,by doing that and networking with friends ( don't take this the wrong way but churches are goldmines!) and colleagues from every aspect of business we have come to the attention of a couple of local banks that will call us directly to handle their properties ....Diversify spend the time you would losing money on a 20.00 cut and get out and market your company...


You said the magic word... DIVERSIFY! You have to have more than one fishing hole! I try to constantly be in "politician mode", shakin babies and kissin hands, spreading my business card like a virus! The more work you have outside this industry, the more you are able to turn down the little chicken sandwich crap. You won't be so broke that you feel compelled to have to do the cheap stuff. Eventually, we will weed out the W/O Mills and middle men... or you will have built up a pretty good business elsewhere. 
As Nancy Reagan encouraged my generation to do... "JUST SAY NO!"


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## Field Audit Services LLC

Diversification is for ..... :blink: :no:


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## GTX63

FAS LLC -Honestly, work on using terms and phrases that aren't quite so offensive. Most on this forum wear grown up pants but there are folks here from both sexes that really would not want to read things like that.


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## GTX63

This is a safeguard property.

And yes, the "handrail" along the steps will raise up and pivot up and down on the one screw holding to the porch rail.


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## cover2

Just wow that's all I can say, how in the name of God do they get away with crap like that??


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## PPPrincessNOT

bwahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Hubby just walked by... glanced at the pic and said.. 

"eh looks like a safeguard property"


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## hammerhead

PPPrincessNOT said:


> bwahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> Hubby just walked by... glanced at the pic and said..
> 
> "eh looks like a safeguard property"


no its not the grass isnt 4 ft tall


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## LaCaSa

Prather Guy said:


> I've been following this post & many other for a while & have learned a lot from you. I don't normally just jump into the sh-t feet first, but this topic is so true.
> 
> Reality is that I'm a small mom & pop type of company (actually just me with other resources when necessary) that can do some of the work at the lower prices. I suspect that a large part of this audience is in a similar situation. Yes You can always find a person to do the work at lower payouts - though I think there is a limit on the type of work required - acre grass cuts I refuse to do for the standard payouts.
> 
> So "how do we stop embarrassing ourselves"
> 
> Does anybody have a breakdown on this forum as to the size or tier level of the members? Some are high up with direct connections. Others, like me are "bottom" levels.
> 
> Just thought we'd start a conversation since this topic is still open. No disrespect meant in anything implied or said. Just thought we should figure out if there is a way of addressing this or this is the way it is


We are in the same boat. As a couple we have been doing this for a little over a year now. My fiance has been on and off for about 5 years. while on the side and barely able to save they money, we have manage to get a business name and licensing etc etc. so we can veer away from being the sub whos subed whos subed. Trying to put your name out there for local banks to chooseyou seems impossible. Like Prather Guy where a small business with resources when needed. The pay we receive from the company we work for has been chopped so many times its ridiculous. sometimes the help that we receive can not be paid for, but more of a volunteering from good friends. So we are now here trying to learn from the pros.Hopefully there are some good-hearted people on here who could help. Knowledge is power!


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## garylaps

Your story is like alot of ours. Don't count on help for long with freinds helping out...You may get more attention from regionals and nationals if you have a website. they prowl around the areas that they need help in for coverage. I haven't done this as I don't want or need anymore work on the pp or reo end. Alot of successfull PP contractors are in areas that are have little competition. Others are not so lucky and have to take scrapes in a area with alot of work and alot of guys looking for work...I can see why this board allways has about 200 or 300 viewers at any given time. Good luck


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## UnitedFieldInspections

GTX63 said:


> This is a safeguard property.
> 
> And yes, the "handrail" along the steps will raise up and pivot up and down on the one screw holding to the porch rail.


LMFAO! LOL I havent seen that one yet


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## GTX63

heartlandproppresllc said:


> So we are now here trying to learn from the pros.Hopefully there are some good-hearted people on here who could help. Knowledge is power!


If your not making any progress after this amount of time it is because your looking for something that simply isn't there. I have known others who latched on with landscaping companies or what their trade was, and made a living wage as an employee. After a period of time they honed their skills, made some contacts, put a little money away and had enough of a business plan that when they stepped off on their own they had a decent income potential. You are trying to fish a pond that has nothing but minnows. If your own family is working you at these prices, it should be pretty obvious that there isn't much left in PP/REO.


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## mtmtnman

UnitedFieldInspections said:


> LMFAO! LOL I havent seen that one yet



Another hand rail not needed per UBC. Porch height is UNDER CODE!!! Crap like that just brings down the value of the whole neighborhood. These nationals and their "2 step rule" are so full of crap their eyes are brown!


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## LaCaSa

GTX63 said:


> If your not making any progress after this amount of time it is because your looking for something that simply isn't there. I have known others who latched on with landscaping companies or what their trade was, and made a living wage as an employee. After a period of time they honed their skills, made some contacts, put a little money away and had enough of a business plan that when they stepped off on their own they had a decent income potential. You are trying to fish a pond that has nothing but minnows. If your own family is working you at these prices, it should be pretty obvious that there isn't much left in PP/REO.


Were hoping to not be with a regional or national, or maybe we should for the experience, ha! The county we live in has many.local banks, we havent had much time at it.but.talking to realtors and the local banks are our first steps in the right direction.


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## Ohnojim

*Hey I'm lower tier, I didn't even have a weed whacker*

when I started borrowed a 3.5 brigs and cut some pretty big lots with it. But then again, I broke even my first day in business, not too many people do that. Come to think of it I made a small profit after my $60 Walmart weed eater and gas. I still run that mower with a heavy mulching blade to chop stuff up. What have we learned from this. Don't lend Jim your tools.


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