# Just Thought I'd Share This



## Trey9007

Dont think Ive seen this posted here before, so I thought I'd share it with you guys.

http://www.sfmslaw.com/Representati...Investigations/Field-Asset-Services-Inc.shtml



> Summary of Investigation: Welcome to the webpage maintained by Shepherd, Finkelman, Miller & Shah, LLP ("SFMS") for its investigation of certain employment practices by Field Asset Services, Inc. ("FAS"); Asset Management Specialists ("AMS"), Safeguard, CoreLogic, Five Brothers, Cyprex, Good Choice Preservation and Aim Your Way, LLC ("Aim Your Way"). Specifically, SFMS is investigating whether workers at these companies who performed property preservation and maintenance services were classified as independent contractors but really treated as employees. Upon information and belief, workers at FAS, AMS, CoreLogic, Five Brothers, Cyprex, Good Choice Preservation, Safeguard and Aim Your Way were really employees as these companies controlled all aspects of its workers' employment. Despite the control over its employees, in many cases, FAS, AMS, CoreLogic,Five Brothers, Cyprex, Good Choice Preservation, Safeguard and Aim Your Way allegedly did not pay its employees overtime wages or reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses. If you performed property preservation and maintenance services for FAS, AMS, CoreLogic, Five Brothers, Cyprex, Good Choice Preservation, Safeguard or Aim Your Way at any property and were denied overtime pay or reimbursement for expenses, please contact us below.
> 
> Contact Us: If you would like to receive additional information or provide us with information concerning this investigation, please click here.
> 
> Status: Under Investigation
> 
> Send Us Information: If you have information about this action that you would like to provide us, please click here.
> 
> This page was last updated: 2014-04-17 12:05:40


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## Craigslist Hack

I have been waiting for this one. It should not be too long and the IRS will want their cut as well. There is no way this industry can continue doing things the way they do and not get noticed.

I would absolutely love to help them in any way I could the issue I have is I was never denied overtime wages because I never asked for them.


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## Trey9007

One thing to keep in mind is that we nor our clients determine if we are employees or contractors. The law makes that determination, by examining the relationship between the 2 parties.

With that said, once you are classified an employee, certain things are 'automatic', as they are required by law. One of those things is OT pay. If an employee works over 40 hours in a 7 days period, that employee is required by law to be paid time and a half. This goes for hourly workers as well as workers paid 'piece' rate. So whether you asked for OT or not, if the law classifies you as an employee, employers must pay it.

I think these folks would love to here from you, as well as many others here.


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## Framer1901

I will never understand how anyone in this business can be classified as an employee, even if it's the only company you work for.

Jobs have due dates yes - the sub contractors dry walling a house for me have a due date also, so does the electrician, carpet guy etc...

Whose truck are you driving, whose tools and whose fuel???

Someone give me the argument as to how you are an employee, IMO, this is another BS lawyer thing brought on by folks that couldn't cut it and couldn't find the exit door.


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## Craigslist Hack

Framer1901 said:


> I will never understand how anyone in this business can be classified as an employee, even if it's the only company you work for.
> 
> Jobs have due dates yes - the sub contractors dry walling a house for me have a due date also, so does the electrician, carpet guy etc...
> 
> Whose truck are you driving, whose tools and whose fuel???
> 
> Someone give me the argument as to how you are an employee, IMO, this is another BS lawyer thing brought on by folks that couldn't cut it and couldn't find the exit door.


I agree with you on the points you made. A client is allowed to ask for work to be performed in a reasonable amount of time. That is no violation of any law.

What they can't do is make you bid items you don't want to. Yet they do 5 Brothers is the worst. They can't penalize you for them having to reassign a work order because you refuse it. They can't tell you what you can charge or force you to use a Cost Estimator. Force me to sign up with Aspen Grove or any other organization.


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## PPArt

I get paid by the job not by the hour. Definitely not an employee. I start and stop my work day when I want, upload when and where I want and take off when I want. I for one think that law suit is just ridiculous.


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## Wannabe

This lawsuit is on the right track. Sure you get work orders BUT it is illegal to tell an IC when it is due and penalize said contractor for not meeting that deadline. They can reassign but not chargeback a contractor for not meeting a time deadline- that is control over a IC that negates the independent relationship. 

Many more items I could mention but no time. 

MARCH ON AND GOOD LUCK ATTORNEYS!! Godspeed!!!


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## Trey9007

IMO, this industry is RIPE for worker misclassfication.

Being paid by the job doesnt make you a contractor. MANY employees are paid by the job aka 'piece rate'. Theres even formula you're required to use to determine the OT rate for employees that are by the job.

The IRS, and the National Labor Relations Act have their own specific tests. 

Unfortunately, I think its a bit more rampant down the line from the Nats. The Nats do a pretty decent job insulating themselves.


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## w-s

I had(or thought I had) Safeguard with proof they are misclassifying employees.

https://labor.ny.gov/formsdocs/ui/ia318.14.pdf

On that form, under based on court decisions an employee-employer relationship exists when an employer....

I had emails from safeguard proving that they:

require full time work
requires attendance at meetings and/or training
requires prior permission for absences
tells the individual when, where and how to do the job
directly supervises the job
provides facilities, EQUIPMENT, tools or supplies (vendor web, photo direct are safeguards equipment)
sets the rate of pay
sets time, money or TERRITORIAL limits (its in your zone, you must do it)
requires oral or written reports
makes the services an integral part of the business
reserves the right to end services on short notice
supervises unskilled labor(or is subject to supervision) - Tyrese Benning.



I wrote to the Liability and Determination department of NYS over a year ago with written proof that Safeguard is doing all those things listed above.

I have not heard anything.

Not only that, Safeguard keeps hiring us, firing us for refusing to do work(last time is was tarp a 3500 sq ft roof for $600 minus discount). Then a month later, they hire us back because they cannot find anyone else in the area.

I'll help anyway I can.


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## Craigslist Hack

PPArt said:


> I get paid by the job not by the hour. Definitely not an employee. I start and stop my work day when I want, upload when and where I want and take off when I want. I for one think that law suit is just ridiculous.


Think bigger. On those few points you are correct. However there is a whole list of violations in just about everything they do.


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## UnitedFieldInspections

w-s said:


> I had(or thought I had) Safeguard with proof they are misclassifying employees.
> 
> https://labor.ny.gov/formsdocs/ui/ia318.14.pdf
> 
> On that form, under based on court decisions an employee-employer relationship exists when an employer....
> 
> I had emails from safeguard proving that they:
> 
> require full time work
> requires attendance at meetings and/or training
> requires prior permission for absences
> tells the individual when, where and how to do the job
> directly supervises the job
> provides facilities, EQUIPMENT, tools or supplies (vendor web, photo direct are safeguards equipment)
> sets the rate of pay
> sets time, money or TERRITORIAL limits (its in your zone, you must do it)
> requires oral or written reports
> makes the services an integral part of the business
> reserves the right to end services on short notice
> supervises unskilled labor(or is subject to supervision) - Tyrese Benning.
> 
> 
> 
> I wrote to the Liability and Determination department of NYS over a year ago with written proof that Safeguard is doing all those things listed above.
> 
> I have not heard anything.
> 
> Not only that, Safeguard keeps hiring us, firing us for refusing to do work(last time is was tarp a 3500 sq ft roof for $600 minus discount). Then a month later, they hire us back because they cannot find anyone else in the area.
> 
> I'll help anyway I can.


Where in NY are you located?We are in Rockland.Safeguard calls all the time they dont understand each county has licenses when i sent them all the county's laws they stopped calling,We still get emails to this day.They will always find someone to do it until they get caught.


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## Framer1901

Wannabe said:


> This lawsuit is on the right track. Sure you get work orders BUT it is illegal to tell an IC when it is due and penalize said contractor for not meeting that deadline. They can reassign but not chargeback a contractor for not meeting a time deadline- that is control over a IC that negates the independent relationship.
> 
> Many more items I could mention but no time.
> 
> MARCH ON AND GOOD LUCK ATTORNEYS!! Godspeed!!!


That above statement is highly misinformed. As a general contractor in the residential/commercial market - I can most certainly tell you when you can be on a job site and when you'll be finished and what your penalty will be for non compliance. I can even withhold a percentage for a time period for warranty issues. Contractual language covers all aspects of this - read the contract you signed with whomever you are working for............

Watch a national chain gas station or fast food building go up - doors are usually open in 4-6 weeks but yet it takes 4 months to build a house. 

I agree, you can't force an IC to do work they don't want to or directly financially penalize them, you can withhold or direct work in a different direction - that happens all the time in any industry, we call it playing ball.


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## Trey9007

Framer1901 said:


> That above statement is highly misinformed. As a general contractor in the residential/commercial market - I can most certainly tell you when you can be on a job site and when you'll be finished and what your penalty will be for non compliance. I can even withhold a percentage for a time period for warranty issues. Contractual language covers all aspects of this - read the contract you signed with whomever you are working for............
> 
> Watch a national chain gas station or fast food building go up - doors are usually open in 4-6 weeks but yet it takes 4 months to build a house.
> 
> I agree, you can't force an IC to do work they don't want to or directly financially penalize them, you can withhold or direct work in a different direction - that happens all the time in any industry, we call it playing ball.


Actually, your post is quite misinforming. The one thing people should know in this industry is that most of the contracts signed, stand a good chance of not being enforceable in a court a law. There are certain rights you cant 'sign' away. Your advice was to 'read your contract' contracts dont trump the law. Employers/Contractors can not get their legal requirements waived, by having employees/sub-contractor sign their contracts. The funniest thing I see in about 99.99% of contracts is the language stating that "you agree you are a contractor not an employee"...I ROTFLMAO every time I see that. The law makes that determination. Not me, not them, but the law.

Someone desperate for a job cannot waive an employers legal requirement to pay the min. wage by signing an employment contract agreeing to work for less than the min wage. An employee can not waive the employers legal obligation for breaks or OT pay by signing an agreement to work without a breaks or OT pay. Most contracts in this industry aren't worth the paper they are written on. 

IMO, this industry is just a big game of pretend. We all pretend we have contracts, but in reality we mostly have agreements based on each others 'word'.


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## Trey9007

w-s said:


> I had(or thought I had) Safeguard with proof they are misclassifying employees.
> 
> https://labor.ny.gov/formsdocs/ui/ia318.14.pdf
> 
> On that form, under based on court decisions an employee-employer relationship exists when an employer....
> 
> I had emails from safeguard proving that they:
> 
> require full time work
> requires attendance at meetings and/or training
> requires prior permission for absences
> tells the individual when, where and how to do the job
> directly supervises the job
> provides facilities, EQUIPMENT, tools or supplies (vendor web, photo direct are safeguards equipment)
> sets the rate of pay
> sets time, money or TERRITORIAL limits (its in your zone, you must do it)
> requires oral or written reports
> makes the services an integral part of the business
> reserves the right to end services on short notice
> supervises unskilled labor(or is subject to supervision) - Tyrese Benning.
> 
> 
> 
> I wrote to the Liability and Determination department of NYS over a year ago with written proof that Safeguard is doing all those things listed above.
> 
> I have not heard anything.
> 
> Not only that, Safeguard keeps hiring us, firing us for refusing to do work(last time is was tarp a 3500 sq ft roof for $600 minus discount). Then a month later, they hire us back because they cannot find anyone else in the area.
> 
> I'll help anyway I can.


W-S, I would follow up with your state's labor agency. But I would also file form SS-8 with the IRS found at the bottom of this page. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Employee-vs.-Independent-Contractor-%E2%80%93-Seven-Tips-for-Business-Owners

I would also file charges with Federal labor board in your area. Some new changes have been made to the contractor vs employee test that seem to work in your favor. See http://www.employmentlawspotlight.c...fedex-drivers-are-employees-who-can-unionize/

GOod Luck!


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## Craigslist Hack

Framer1901 said:


> That above statement is highly misinformed. As a general contractor in the residential/commercial market - I can most certainly tell you when you can be on a job site and when you'll be finished and what your penalty will be for non compliance. I can even withhold a percentage for a time period for warranty issues. Contractual language covers all aspects of this - read the contract you signed with whomever you are working for............
> 
> Watch a national chain gas station or fast food building go up - doors are usually open in 4-6 weeks but yet it takes 4 months to build a house.
> 
> I agree, you can't force an IC to do work they don't want to or directly financially penalize them, you can withhold or direct work in a different direction - that happens all the time in any industry, we call it playing ball.


Liquidated damages are penalties for not meeting the schedule.

Retainage is often held to the tune of 10-20% for around 6 months after project completion for most large projects.

For either of those things to be enforced they must be included in the contract on a case by case basis otherwise they are nonenforceable.

This lawsuit is on the right track and if they persist it will change the industry but the items they are focusing on are not winning arguments. There are plenty of indiscretions and violations of laws and codes committed by Nationals everyday. I don't understand why they are not focused on these.

This lawsuit has a "vibe" like some small minded bubba's in pick up trucks want overtime and benefits. I don't want any of those things EVER AGAIN! I want to be able to run my business not be directed by a national. They cannot dictate what I bid and what services we perform.


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## Wannabe

Framer,

You are correct when it's a "per job contract and the penalties are spelled out in the contract for late work or incomplete work". What makes P&P negate employee/IC relationships IMO is there are NO defined penalties and NO signed Independent Contractor contracts signed per job with spelled out requirements. Due to legal reasons I won't discuss BUT due to Contract Law violations of State Statutes all charge backs "could" be reimbursed.  

A year ago we had a convenience store chain ask us to bid to maintain their stores if a water loss occurred. In this "Bid Requirements" it was clearly spelled out the required Response Times & penalties for not meeting requirements and this Appendix became an Attachment to the Maintenance Contract. This contract was for only 1 field of work-in our case Water Mitigation. Any additional services were seperate contracts with seperate requirements. This is perfectly legal and still preserves the IC Relationship. 

I have yet seen a P&P Contract that defines "how much the penalty is", a contract for each service and expectations of work to be performed.


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## w-s

UnitedFieldInspections said:


> Where in NY are you located?We are in Rockland.Safeguard calls all the time they dont understand each county has licenses when i sent them all the county's laws they stopped calling,We still get emails to this day.They will always find someone to do it until they get caught.


Im near Buffalo, other side of state. When they want me to do licensed work I send a bid in for $500 for a certified inspection from a licensed contractor.



Trey9007 said:


> W-S, I would follow up with your state's labor agency. But I would also file form SS-8 with the IRS found at the bottom of this page. http://www.irs.gov/uac/Employee-vs.-Independent-Contractor-%E2%80%93-Seven-Tips-for-Business-Owners
> 
> I would also file charges with Federal labor board in your area. Some new changes have been made to the contractor vs employee test that seem to work in your favor. See http://www.employmentlawspotlight.c...fedex-drivers-are-employees-who-can-unionize/
> 
> GOod Luck!


There are really no damages though..had they classified me as an employee, they would have paid me less, and used the difference to pay the taxes..so I just let it go. But I'd like to see changes and this is the first I have heard of any "big" thing going on.



Craigslist Hack said:


> Liquidated damages are penalties for not meeting the schedule.
> 
> Retainage is often held to the tune of 10-20% for around 6 months after project completion for most large projects.
> 
> For either of those things to be enforced they must be included in the contract on a case by case basis otherwise they are nonenforceable.
> 
> This lawsuit is on the right track and if they persist it will change the industry but the items they are focusing on are not winning arguments. There are plenty of indiscretions and violations of laws and codes committed by Nationals everyday. I don't understand why they are not focused on these.
> 
> This lawsuit has a "vibe" like some small minded bubba's in pick up trucks want overtime and benefits. I don't want any of those things EVER AGAIN! I want to be able to run my business not be directed by a national. They cannot dictate what I bid and what services we perform.



If this lawsuit makes waves and the government forces a change which would happen?

Nationals turn everyone into employees

or

Nationals are forced to not dictate terms


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## newreo

I thought I will add my 3 cents here
Here is how IRS sees this subject
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Employee-vs.-Independent-Contractor-–-Seven-Tips-for-Business-Owners
So, yeah, it is looking more like employees vs contractors. We are gen contractors and yes, we can't dictate many things to subs, we work together based on the mutual agreement from both sides. I just see what one of my subs will say for things that we heard from SG


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## P3+

Hack and Wannabe,
100% agree, there are much larger issues to attack than a petty O.T. issue. 
In particular the act of chargebacks, which were at one time years ago almost unheard of (unless you were truly negligent) have become almost a cost of doing business, or a matter of when not if in this industry.
How Company ABC can charge back Contractor X based on photographs sent in by Contractor Z is simply baffling to me. If contractor X misses something on an ICC or whatever show me where in any contract it is applicable to allow Servicing Company ABC to charge back the cost + for contractor Z to follow behind and make the necessary repair? It's criminal simple as that, ripe for sabotage and shenanigans.


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## Trey9007

P3+ said:


> Hack and Wannabe,
> 100% agree, there are much larger issues to attack than a petty O.T. issue.
> In particular the act of chargebacks, which were at one time years ago almost unheard of (unless you were truly negligent) have become almost a cost of doing business, or a matter of when not if in this industry.
> How Company ABC can charge back Contractor X based on photographs sent in by Contractor Z is simply baffling to me. If contractor X misses something on an ICC or whatever show me where in any contract it is applicable to allow Servicing Company ABC to charge back the cost + for contractor Z to follow behind and make the necessary repair? It's criminal simple as that, ripe for sabotage and shenanigans.


One major issue is being ignored. As baffling as these things may be, in a legal contractor - subcontractor relationship, chargebacks for just about any reason are totally legal, as long as the terms are spelled out in the contract. In a true contractor-subcontractor relationship, the contract language is pretty much all you have to dispute. 

Step 1 in the process of being made whole, is to have your relationship examined. If its found that the relationship is an employer-employee relationship, so many things begin to work in your favor. 

Employees cant be charged back. Employees can't work for less than the min. wage, which is what chargebacks usually cause to happen. Many of the shenanigans are legal in a true contractor-subcontractor relationship, unless it violates the terms of the agreement. But once the agreement is invalidated, then your chances of being made whole become MUCH, MUCH, greater and easier. 

OT violations may be petty, but they're also just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Trey9007

> There are really no damages though..had they classified me as an employee, they would have paid me less, and used the difference to pay the taxes..so I just let it go. But I'd like to see changes and this is the first I have heard of any "big" thing going on.


You may find it interesting that it is pretty common in wage and hour cases for the labor board to award you damages. It very common for employers to be required to pay the amount wages due times 3. 

I recommend filing the paperwork. Its free. Doesn't take all that long. You file it, and let it go. If nothing happens, oh well. But 1 year from now you may be awarded back pay and damages, as well as helping your industry. Once a few SS-8's are filed, I think change will come.


Either way, good luck to you!


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## Zuse

Trey9007 said:


> IMO, this industry is RIPE for worker misclassfication.
> 
> Being paid by the job doesnt make you a contractor. MANY employees are paid by the job aka 'piece rate'. Theres even formula you're required to use to determine the OT rate for employees that are by the job.
> 
> The IRS, and the National Labor Relations Act have their own specific tests.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think its a bit more rampant down the line from the Nats. The Nats do a pretty decent job insulating themselves.


Trey good to see you back... posting again!! but yes Nats insulating themselves is in the end the game we all play. Well for me it is anyhow.


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## Trey9007

Zuse said:


> Trey good to see you back... posting again!! but yes Nats insulating themselves is in the end the game we all play. Well for me it is anyhow.


 
Hey whats up Zuse!...hope everythings been good with you. 


Im guessing, the Nats, like their counterparts in other industry's, have learned to simply require their contractors, via contract requirements, to do their dirty work for them. There's nothing wrong with Nats having conditions that would require their contractors to have employee like control over their workforce. They can even add to a contract that they flat out require you to use employees. Either way, they're safe. But the guy, who signs a Nats contract, then often becomes the first in the line of BS agreements needed to get the Nats work done.

I've never had a national ask or require me to be on a conference call or complete online training. But I have had regionals request these things. In emails at that. One in particular even wrote in a pre-hire email that it was mandatory and outlined the topics that would be covered. All the topics were basically training on how they required the work to be done.

I know of regionals who require subs to wear shirts with the regional's logo on it, along with an ID provided by the regional.

My guess is, the only chance of these nationals would ever get busted, is their documented day to day behavior. Emails, phone calls, etc.... But I have to admit, the Nats I do business with seem to be on the up & up. No control issues.


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## GTX63

Yes, there are nationals that will send out badges for photo ids. Safeguard and FAS, as well as others have in the past required on site, in person training with the stipulation that the owner and crew members attend or risk being cut off.
Conference calls, webinars, on site audits are common tools used by many nationals. The requirements that Nationals have introduced in the past have been painted as tools designed to improve, protect and elevate the industry, but yes, you are correct in that mainly they seek to distance and insulate themselves from the blood.


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## P3+

Ironically my company is a certified installer for one of the large Box stores. Said box store requires myself and anyone else I have on site to wear a logo'd shirt with their branding on it. As a representative of the store I have no real issue with it, other than it is deceptive in practice. It portrays that I and my help are employees of the box store....clearly any uninformed Joe Homeowner will think this without hesitation. So I am always forthright and insistent on letting the homeowner know that I am an independent contractor and business owner. It can open doors/avenues to other work, but it has always left a weird feeling wearing that damn shirt. I cut them off from any further work back in October. Simply couldn't keep up with all of it. 





Trey9007 said:


> Hey whats up Zuse!...hope everythings been good with you.
> 
> 
> Im guessing, the Nats, like their counterparts in other industry's, have learned to simply require their contractors, via contract requirements, to do their dirty work for them. There's nothing wrong with Nats having conditions that would require their contractors to have employee like control over their workforce. They can even add to a contract that they flat out require you to use employees. Either way, they're safe. But the guy, who signs a Nats contract, then often becomes the first in the line of BS agreements needed to get the Nats work done.
> 
> I've never had a national ask or require me to be on a conference call or complete online training. But I have had regionals request these things. In emails at that. One in particular even wrote in a pre-hire email that it was mandatory and outlined the topics that would be covered. All the topics were basically training on how they required the work to be done.
> 
> I know of regionals who require subs to wear shirts with the regional's logo on it, along with an ID provided by the regional.
> 
> My guess is, the only chance of these nationals would ever get busted, is their documented day to day behavior. Emails, phone calls, etc.... But I have to admit, the Nats I do business with seem to be on the up & up. No control issues.


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## Pushed around

Trey9007 said:


> Dont think Ive seen this posted here before, so I thought I'd share it with you guys.
> 
> http://www.sfmslaw.com/Representati...Investigations/Field-Asset-Services-Inc.shtml


I went to that link no one responded


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## newreo

Pushed around said:


> I went to that link no one responded


I would call them


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## Doc

P3+ said:


> Hack and Wannabe,
> 100% agree, there are much larger issues to attack than a petty O.T. issue.
> In particular the act of chargebacks, which were at one time years ago almost unheard of (unless you were truly negligent) have become almost a cost of doing business, or a matter of when not if in this industry.
> How Company ABC can charge back Contractor X based on photographs sent in by Contractor Z is simply baffling to me. If contractor X misses something on an ICC or whatever show me where in any contract it is applicable to allow Servicing Company ABC to charge back the cost + for contractor Z to follow behind and make the necessary repair? It's criminal simple as that, ripe for sabotage and shenanigans.



I agree. I only perform QA type inspections; I don't perform maintenance or contractor work at all.

If there's a discrepancy it goes in my report. I have nothing to gain by falsifying a report.

That's the way it should be.

There is no-way a maintenance company or repair contractor should be conducting QA inspections. It's an obvious conflict of interest.


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## Zuse

Trey9007 said:


> Hey whats up Zuse!...hope everythings been good with you.
> 
> 
> Im guessing, the Nats, like their counterparts in other industry's, have learned to simply require their contractors, via contract requirements, to do their dirty work for them. There's nothing wrong with Nats having conditions that would require their contractors to have employee like control over their workforce. They can even add to a contract that they flat out require you to use employees. Either way, they're safe. But the guy, who signs a Nats contract, then often becomes the first in the line of BS agreements needed to get the Nats work done.
> 
> I've never had a national ask or require me to be on a conference call or complete online training. But I have had regionals request these things. In emails at that. One in particular even wrote in a pre-hire email that it was mandatory and outlined the topics that would be covered. All the topics were basically training on how they required the work to be done.
> 
> I know of regionals who require subs to wear shirts with the regional's logo on it, along with an ID provided by the regional.
> 
> My guess is, the only chance of these nationals would ever get busted, is their documented day to day behavior. Emails, phone calls, etc.... But I have to admit, the Nats I do business with seem to be on the up & up. No control issues.


All those companys that force you to use GPS coding, name tags, forced worked turnaround times with reduce pay for lateness, force use of the CE even after ifs declined by the IC is breaking law. 

For an example you punish a roofer because he doesn't finish the in 5 days but does complete it in 7. you can make request and demands but you take away from his agreed payment because of it. 

For wints as an example if you sign the pcr that the wint is intact and home holds pressure but you miss 1 photo and they back charge you because 1 pic they are setting themselves up for law suits.

You cant make me check in at property before is start working, the crosses the line of IC to employee.

The banking reform act by FRANK/DODD never covered these areas of the IC community, they service bowing down to demands that the banks never are required to implement.

SG has the most to lose and will in the end. It wont be their subs, but their owners and employees on the stand. IC are small fry they have assets and money, unlike the regionals and the national.

Sharks don't like minnows.


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## AceVentura

Zuse said:


> All those companys that force you to use GPS coding, name tags, forced worked turnaround times with reduce pay for lateness, force use of the CE even after ifs declined by the IC is breaking law.
> 
> For an example you punish a roofer because he doesn't finish the in 5 days but does complete it in 7. you can make request and demands but you take away from his agreed payment because of it.
> 
> For wints as an example if you sign the pcr that the wint is intact and home holds pressure but you miss 1 photo and they back charge you because 1 pic they are setting themselves up for law suits.
> 
> You cant make me check in at property before is start working, the crosses the line of IC to employee.
> 
> The banking reform act by FRANK/DODD never covered these areas of the IC community, they service bowing down to demands that the banks never are required to implement.
> 
> SG has the most to lose and will in the end. It wont be their subs, but their owners and employees on the stand. IC are small fry they have assets and money, unlike the regionals and the national.
> 
> Sharks don't like minnows.



Zuse I agree to an extent.

But the key word in what you are talking about is infrastructure.

If the pipeline failed it would cause much bigger problems.

If a problem comes up I think it will be from the second level, most likely the first levels will receive some good fines & other.

Now the 2nd level who is trying to play the game of level 1 would probably be the party who will get their day of fame.

$$$ Reasons $$$
1. The cost of attorneys
2. Whom directly caused harm
3. Whom is not a vital part of infrastructure
4. Whom really has the most to lose
5. Whom could show they made changes in an attempt to stop problems?

In point a regional is the scapegoat. They will go down in a blaze and their will be no glory for them. In fact I believe we will see that if and when **** hits the fan a regional is now the one whom will make the national look like a victim.

If I were a regional I would be trying to change my tactics fast as DOJ is now talking about further prosecution of the "White Collar". 

Any bets on the possibility of "regionals" getting to go play at a non white collar facility in which they will have plenty of time to explain how to be a regional to "bubba".

White Collar fed facilities are for those with serious $$, not a Milli or 2.


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## madxtreme01

I see the biggest problems being with the mobile check in, bids, BATF, and deadlines. 

1st mobile check in??? What is the purpose of this, they are already forcing us to use GeoTagging, so the correct location is already verified. Is it their business when I get to the property or how long I was there. It reminds me of being an auto mechanic. For example a timing belt and water pump may say it takes 8 hours according to the flat rate book, but if a guy does it day in and day out can do it in 3 should he be penalized and forced to take the full 8 hours or risk being paid less? Our industry is no different, don't tell me how long a job should take and ask me to take a pic of my phone showing time in and out. Why do you care what time I arrive at each property???

2nd bids!!! If I choose not to bid on an item then that is because I can't complete the service. It is reported as damages, and I am not interested in placing a bid for repair, let alone spend $9.99 using a ce. This industry has really lost it. I'm at a property for lets say an initial secure. So knoblock/deadbolt $50, winterization $100. Ok so grossed $150 minus the $20 between the 2 locks, antifreeze, zip ties for the water main, caps for the open water lines, postings and tape. Assume that from my office/home it's 30 miles which is another $12 in fuel if I was going from my home/office directly to the job and back. So I've already spent 3 hours and made $118. Now you want me to use a ce to bid on items too?? where is the money to be made??? Especially if I was only asked to go there to provide a bid. Then what? I get paid a stupid $20 trip free minus the $10 for the CE and I did the job for free...... It's a load of bs, CE should have a 1 time buy, with paid quarterly updates, or a monthly fee. 

3rd BATF is the nationals/regionals way of getting us to do a job for free. If the job is already done how can I argue with reduced pay. In their eyes the job is done and too bad. We should be able to call from site for approval with instant email approvals in writing for all jobs required to be completed as BATF. I don't want to be told just bid it after. What if I want $1000 and you are only willing to give me $200. If given the option prior I would say no, but it's done already, what can be done now?

4th Deadlines with backcharges or penalties if not completed on time is a joke. I've been doing work for LPS through a local company whose prices aren't terrible, but most deadlines are within 48 hrs no matter how long it takes to complete the task. I mean I can't complete 30 full exterior cleanups in 48 hrs, we can barely complete 2 a day per crew depending on the size and what needs to be done. However if it takes you longer, these nationals don't want to pay or want to backcharge you to pay for another crew to do it instead because you aren't in compliance. How many companies have 20 crews lined up waiting for work just in case you get slammed. It's all about volume they tell you, but when you get 100 grass cuts, it's a lot different than 100 initial secures or 100 winterizations. Some jobs take long than others which negates how much work can be completed within a given time frame. I get calls from one national that I turn down constantly because they want everything done today or tomorrow. I simply inform them that if I didn't know what work was being completed tomorrow then I am failing in business. They always seem to be confused when I tell them that not understanding why I am not interested in completing the job. Also recently I started working for MCS directly and in their paperwork it says that a reason for asking for an extension is invalid if requested because it's a weekend or because of other work. These nationals expect us to work 7 days a week when they are only in their offices M-F 9-5, and on top of that they also expect us to have people on standby waiting for additional work because in their eyes if you can't complete everything within the time frame, then you are not properly staffed. How can they understand that different jobs take different amounts of time when these idiots behind the desk at these order mills don't even know what a screwdriver is.


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## Doc

Regarding the geo-tagging you guys are mentioning. I remember a company I looked-in-to saying something about that on their website.

I take photos with a DSLR that doesn't have GPS so I said "screw it".

For those of you that take photos with a camera phone, what do you do if you have no cell coverage at the location?


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## madxtreme01

Doc said:


> Regarding the geo-tagging you guys are mentioning. I remember a company I looked-in-to saying something about that on their website.
> 
> I take photos with a DSLR that doesn't have GPS so I said "screw it".
> 
> For those of you that take photos with a camera phone, what do you do if you have no cell coverage at the location?



I prefer to use a digital camera over a phone, but the geotagging will work no matter what. I've been told that it doesn't work off of the same technology that your cell reception does. It can pull your location from a nearby wifi signal


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## Zuse

AceVentura said:


> Zuse I agree to an extent.
> 
> But the key word in what you are talking about is infrastructure.
> 
> If the pipeline failed it would cause much bigger problems.
> 
> If a problem comes up I think it will be from the second level, most likely the first levels will receive some good fines & other.
> 
> Now the 2nd level who is trying to play the game of level 1 would probably be the party who will get their day of fame.
> 
> $$$ Reasons $$$
> 1. The cost of attorneys
> 2. Whom directly caused harm
> 3. Whom is not a vital part of infrastructure
> 4. Whom really has the most to lose
> 5. Whom could show they made changes in an attempt to stop problems?
> 
> In point a regional is the scapegoat. They will go down in a blaze and their will be no glory for them. In fact I believe we will see that if and when **** hits the fan a regional is now the one whom will make the national look like a victim.
> 
> If I were a regional I would be trying to change my tactics fast as DOJ is now talking about further prosecution of the "White Collar".
> 
> Any bets on the possibility of "regionals" getting to go play at a non white collar facility in which they will have plenty of time to explain how to be a regional to "bubba".
> 
> White Collar fed facilities are for those with serious $$, not a Milli or 2.



Ok, so lets just set back and look into the past, now lets name just 1 Regional that has has been shut down or prosecuted by the IRS or a AG for that matter.

Now lets look at the Nationals which one has been shut down or prosecuted by the AG or IRS, SafeScrew is one fined but not shut down, Servicelink was fined but not shut down, MCS was investigated but walked clean with out any fines or prosecutions.

SafeScrew has been in the news more than anyone and has the AG's of many states going after them. But they still survive. Its gotten so bad at SG that they are already starting to diversify away from P&P and REO work. they are not activity looking for more work. The inside work force of SG has had a major lay off of over 100 employees. this happened over a year ago.

Kline got the BOFA account because of his connections to congress threw k-street lobbyist. Country-wide went belly up congress forced BOFA to adsorb Country-wide which forced BOFA to use a outside service company to take over the portfolio to save the losses they incurred by the forced take over. When BOFA tried to service the accounts in-house it forced tremendous losses and forced the stock down to 3.00 a share.

Now inters SG with a buyout with strict conditions on how to service the accounts.. One was reduce prices and payouts to service company's, thus the term "SG screw the in entire industry when they took over the BOFA account" which in hindsight we all know that was change that turned the entire industry on its head and they have to this day still been playing catch. Its called "controlled cost" 

Many will argue that the industry was well on its way down hill before the BOFA buyout. But i would disagree, before the buyout it was and unregulated free for all on price fixing and over charging by a contractor own service company. Which forced HUD to introduce the CE, which loosely gave back some standards that was poorly needed.

Now we have a poorly regulated industry with CE trying to control cost with a out of control service company namely SG that is clearly losing contracts which is having the unintended consequences of rubbing off on other Nationals trying to squeeze every dollar they can just keep theirs heads above water.

So they say the fish rots from the head first, i give you SG as an example, SG gets squeezed which intern forces them to squeeze the 2nd level of services company's the regionals. That's where the structure stops. 

The P&P and REO industry is very small compared to other industry's, the largest part of our industry is the HUD contracts handed out. and those are controlled by the "GSE" > *government-sponsored enterprise. *Freddie mac and Fannie mae and HUD

Anytime the Government gets its fingers involved the lobbyist with their hands out right behind them, BOFA and WF and REGIONS BANK and long list of lawyers and lobbyist are telling the AG and the IRS to get off our BACK and leave our service company alone, Period. 

You ever wonder why SG property's are left with no repairs or work done to them for years, or why homes in nice neighborhoods get serviced and those in the hood don't..

Because BANKS OWN CONGRESS.

The IC law as it is written now with out the latest update, is clear as a bell, does it get abused. yes it does but that's goes without saying so does other laws concerning employee and employer relationships.

Like everything else in this mad world we find ourselves in "FALLOW THE MONEY"


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