# angies list



## ezdayman

Has anyone ever got work off angies list?


----------



## PPPrincessNOT

Yes but we get more tire kickers then work....

Don't think we will continue with them.....:vs_cool:


----------



## Craigslist Hack

We get leads this way for Windows and siding. I find that the people think they know more than we do and in fact are only confused. None of these buyers plan to make a purchase anytime soon. They are simply "shopping" we have sold a few of them but overall it's a waste of time.


----------



## ezdayman

*tire kickers.*

Why the hell are there so many tire kickers. or you get the goof that has this big dream.. and then says im just getting ideas right now... you ahole.. did you call me over here to listen to you blab for 40 mins.. ionly had tire kickers on angies list and its anoying.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

ezdayman said:


> Why the hell are there so many tire kickers. or you get the goof that has this big dream.. and then says im just getting ideas right now... you ahole.. did you call me over here to listen to you blab for 40 mins.. ionly had tire kickers on angies list and its anoying.



Do you know how to sell? Have you had training in how to create sense of urgency or overcome objections?


----------



## GTX63

This is likely one of the training aids CLHack was weaned on.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

More like this.


----------



## PPPrincessNOT

this work for me..
tire kickers seem to like this


----------



## ezdayman

*craigslist hack*

LMAO.. i wish it was that ez lol.. princess hahaha lmao GTX....


----------



## ezdayman

*craigslist...*

Im not a salesman!!! i know how to talk the ****.. but im also a truthful person, Im not going to feed a customer a bunch of garbage to get a sale... i tell them what i can give them and what they want to hear.. I hear other peoples sales pitches and they promise to deliver the moon.. im more real and logical in giving my bids.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

ezdayman said:


> Im not a salesman!!! i know how to talk the ****.. but im also a truthful person, Im not going to feed a customer a bunch of garbage to get a sale... i tell them what i can give them and what they want to hear.. I hear other peoples sales pitches and they promise to deliver the moon.. im more real and logical in giving my bids.


I don't believe in promising a customer anything you can't deliver. I also do not believe in lying to them ever.

I know 100% for sure that if you walk up with jeans on and a tape measure on your hip you won't get any more money than the last guy with that approach did. 

When a customer sees multiple contractors what are they going to hear every time? "we do amazing work" "we offer amazing service after the sale" "we will be neat and professional" It's the same spiel over and over so they make their decision based on price. That doesn't mean they go with the cheap guy in fact more often than not they choose the 2nd lowest price. It's a psychological thing where they want to feel like they didn't just take the lowest price.

When I go in I have a professional Presentation complete with product information, pics of previous jobs, customer testimonials, my competitors pricing, pictures of my competitors products failing and of their workmanship being less than desirable. Throughout my presentation I get small commitments and through a series of commitments we eliminate the competition. By the end of the presentation I ask "is there any reason other than money you wouldn't put me to work TODAY?" Today is the key word! After that if they say they want to shop I politely (with a smile) remind them that they said earlier MONEY was the only reason we would not get together on an order. "so John and Mary when you say you want to shop around it's not that you want another product or company it's that you are looking for a better price?" at this point I will ask them what WOULD it take to get your business today? If I can I work out the difference and write them up. If I can't no worries We have a backlog at the moment so i don't need every order only the home runs.


----------



## Ohnojim

*I sold Vacuum cleaners right out of high school*

once you can sell someone their own dirt, everything after that is cake.


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> I don't believe in promising a customer anything you can't deliver. I also do not believe in lying to them ever.
> 
> I know 100% for sure that if you walk up with jeans on and a tape measure on your hip you won't get any more money than the last guy with that approach did.
> 
> When a customer sees multiple contractors what are they going to hear every time? "we do amazing work" "we offer amazing service after the sale" "we will be neat and professional" It's the same spiel over and over so they make their decision based on price. That doesn't mean they go with the cheap guy in fact more often than not they choose the 2nd lowest price. It's a psychological thing where they want to feel like they didn't just take the lowest price.
> 
> When I go in I have a professional Presentation complete with product information, pics of previous jobs, customer testimonials, my competitors pricing, pictures of my competitors products failing and of their workmanship being less than desirable. Throughout my presentation I get small commitments and through a series of commitments we eliminate the competition. By the end of the presentation I ask "is there any reason other than money you wouldn't put me to work TODAY?" Today is the key word! After that if they say they want to shop I politely (with a smile) remind them that they said earlier MONEY was the only reason we would not get together on an order. "so John and Mary when you say you want to shop around it's not that you want another product or company it's that you are looking for a better price?" at this point I will ask them what WOULD it take to get your business today? If I can I work out the difference and write them up. If I can't no worries We have a backlog at the moment so i don't need every order only the home runs.



Not saying your competitors aren't doing crap work, but isn't it unethical to bash your competition. Personally I have passed on several companies that I was looking to hire just for this same reason. Anyone can bash their competition. I just don't think it's right


----------



## safeguard dropout

It's not bashing your competitor. It is educating your customer.


----------



## AceVentura

ezdayman said:


> Im not a salesman!!! i know how to talk the ****.. but im also a truthful person, Im not going to feed a customer a bunch of garbage to get a sale... i tell them what i can give them and what they want to hear.. I hear other peoples sales pitches and they promise to deliver the moon.. im more real and logical in giving my bids.



People buy based on your attitude - nothing but confidence and being likeable. - Even people who do shoddy work get work.

If you want the hot ticket to get your foot in the door tell them you will get them a free roof / siding etc.

Then do it.

Quick storm damage inspections - 50 % of houses have been pounded by hail.

Do a quick check of the roof

Insurance inspectors only use 1 square to determine - i think its like 6 - 10 hits "pocks" in that square for the replacement.

Roof usually will get the siding fascia etc maybe window etc.

Then they get the insurance amounts, do a quick up sell on the siding roof let em know it will last longer.

Less out of their pocket, you got some good references then - you know why? Cuz you just saved them an arm and a leg when they probably would have just paid for the work anyway.


----------



## Wannabe

And when the insurance doesn't pay then you refer them to ME!


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> Not saying your competitors aren't doing crap work, but isn't it unethical to bash your competition. Personally I have passed on several companies that I was looking to hire just for this same reason. Anyone can bash their competition. I just don't think it's right



If you have proof and evidence to show them it's not bashing it's fact. Most of my competition buy an already manufactured product that anyone can buy and use a subcontractor to install. Take siding for instance how many vinyl siding jobs look good 5 years down the road? The answer not many vinyl siding is crap, it fades, it warps, the weed eater tears it up, rocks and hail go right through it. We point out the flaws in the product and the consumer draws their own conclusions. 

We close 90% of the appointments we run. Our capture rate is very high but most of that has to do with how we pre qualify the lead before we ever set an appointment. All decision makers must be present. We don't run investment properties, rentals, flips, insurance work, or anyone that plans to relocate in the next 5 years. 

As far as being ethical we never say anyone is a bad company we simply point out that their business model is the same and their products are poor quality. 

We specialize in aluminum reinforced triple pane Windows and our competition sells cheap double pane vinyl. We have an R value 3 times higher than our closest competitor. The client isn't going to know this if I just give them a price. I have to educate them.


----------



## Ohnojim

*R-value? Don't you mean*

Fenestration rating or U-value. I'm a bit of a window geek.


----------



## BRADSConst

Ohnojim said:


> Fenestration rating or U-value. I'm a bit of a window geek.


U factor = 1/R value
0.2 U Factor = 1/ R5

Typically windows are rated in U factor. However, I find that homeowners relate better to R value as that is how insulation is sold. I don't know why but people seem to get R 19 wall insulation and gloss over when telling them the window is 0.20 U factor. Plus, I think psychologically, people tend to believe bigger is better. 0.2 U factor being better than a 0.30 factor isn't as easy to understand versus telling them this window has a R5 value versus R3.3. Just my experience.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> Fenestration rating or U-value. I'm a bit of a window geek.



I'm beyond a window geek and like Brads Says we use r-value so that the homeowner can relate easier. For example a common double pane with nickel oxide low E and argon gas has an R-value of about 3.2. The window we offer them with triple pane argon, krypton, and Sulpherhexaflouride has an R-value of 10. 

When you start getting into U factors they start counting ceiling tiles.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

BRADSConst said:


> U factor = 1/R value
> 0.2 U Factor = 1/ R5
> 
> Typically windows are rated in U factor. However, I find that homeowners relate better to R value as that is how insulation is sold. I don't know why but people seem to get R 19 wall insulation and gloss over when telling them the window is 0.20 U factor. Plus, I think psychologically, people tend to believe bigger is better. 0.2 U factor being better than a 0.30 factor isn't as easy to understand versus telling them this window has a R5 value versus R3.3. Just my experience.



The most powerful question we ask is "why do you want to replace your current Windows?"

Generally the response is energy savings so my next question is "what is your current R-value?" 

Most sales people never point out that in many cases if the homeowners purchase new Windows they are only improving their energy efficiency slightly. They may save enough money to buy a cup of coffee in 10 years?


----------



## Ohnojim

*Just messing around.*

It doesn't really matter. I just like saying fenestration. I like to get their eyes glazed over a bit,before I hit them with a number. It was actually the Energy Tax Credit, that got me using it, since the credit was based on the U scale.
I like to explain to them that heat transmission is really a secondary factor and air infiltration is where all the losses really are. This begins the narrative that installation quality is first and foremost.
Let's face it, we're all peddling the same products. Installation is what sets you apart.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> It doesn't really matter. I just like saying fenestration. I like to get their eyes glazed over a bit,before I hit them with a number. It was actually the Energy Tax Credit, that got me using it, since the credit was based on the U scale.
> I like to explain to them that heat transmission is really a secondary factor and air infiltration is where all the losses really are. This begins the narrative that installation quality is first and foremost.
> Let's face it, we're all peddling the same products. Installation is what sets you apart.



I sincerely hope that is sarcasm.


----------



## Ohnojim

*No it's not sarcasm in the least.*



Craigslist Hack said:


> I sincerely hope that is sarcasm.


unless you have some exclusive dealership or territory on some specific plastic or clad window,which is still made from the same extrusions,seals and thermal glass units with the same hardware as comparably priced offerings from other manufactures. I can sell the same plastic window as you.I can sell the same siding as you, I can sell the same roofing as you. 
I also do find that using the less accessible,more product specific rating makes you look more knowledgeable about the product. 
You can put on an act of product exclusivity in your presentation, that's fine. But you won't sell it to me. Save it for the dog and pony show.
Two window salesman sitting at the bar, could go switch plastic windows from one trunk to the other, and they would both still be selling the "best".
I've been having this discussion since the 80's. Some people believe their own BS and never get it.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> unless you have some exclusive dealership or territory on some specific plastic or clad window,which is still made from the same extrusions,seals and thermal glass units with the same hardware as comparably priced offerings from other manufactures. I can sell the same plastic window as you.I can sell the same siding as you, I can sell the same roofing as you.
> I also do find that using the less accessible,more product specific rating makes you look more knowledgeable about the product.
> You can put on an act of product exclusivity in your presentation, that's fine. But you won't sell it to me. Save it for the dog and pony show.
> Two window salesman sitting at the bar, could go switch plastic windows from one trunk to the other, and they would both still be selling the "best".
> I've been having this discussion since the 80's. Some people believe their own BS and never get it.



Your point is correct. Window World and the guy pitching the alside window are selling the exact same product. 

You couldn't be more wrong about heat transfer or air infiltration. No one installs a window that leaks air. In fact most guys install them so tight that they crack the glass when the vinyl expands with temperature change. 

Everything we offer is exclusive and we do not offer a product at a price point. The only thing we sell that you could sell in my area are metal shingles and we are factory trained and certified for that. I don't know of another company in our area that has the relationship with the manufacturer that we do. They called us and asked for a crew last week to do a job in Louisville but my guys are too busy here.


----------



## Ohnojim

*So if I install the best window incorrectly*



Craigslist Hack said:


> Your point is correct. Window World and the guy pitching the alside window are selling the exact same product.
> 
> You couldn't be more wrong about heat transfer or air infiltration. No one installs a window that leaks air. In fact most guys install them so tight that they crack the glass when the vinyl expands with temperature change.
> 
> Everything we offer is exclusive and we do not offer a product at a price point. The only thing we sell that you could sell in my area are metal shingles and we are factory trained and certified for that. I don't know of another company in our area that has the relationship with the manufacturer that we do. They called us and asked for a crew last week to do a job in Louisville but my guys are too busy here.


out of square so the seals don't meet, or with voids around it, or leave the old weight pocket un-insulated, I will get the same performance as that window installed correctly? 
If my metal looks like crap or my trim work sucks or I have big globs of caulking or I don't wipe it down any other host of installation screw ups. Even little things like showing the customer the proper way to operate the window make a difference. 
Yes, many guys do install them too tight, which only speaks to my point that installation is what sets a company apart. There are many good windows out there,there are many hunks of crap too. 
One little draft, will make that cup of coffee in ten years that they would have saved immaterial.
It's great you have a relationship with your manufacturer, I do not these days but have done in the seven digits with manufactures in the past,had my own line with them even had my own name on the locks. Was my window really all that better than some of the other companies best line,probably not. 
I like a window with certain features,not a big fan of clad windows like you offer,I like a Tremco glass unit,as opposed to a standard hermetic.A Caldwell balancer as opposed to the string balancer or the coiled spring set-up, a stainless steel cam,with no di-cast parts and a good chambered solid extrusion with triple pile seals and a sloped sill with triple bulb seal and final pile seal and brass compression locks. 
You might like something else. 
In all my years,I've never seen one that tight it cracked the glass, but I'm sure it's possible, though I'm also sure there were other factors at play.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> out of square so the seals don't meet, or with voids around it, or leave the old weight pocket un-insulated, I will get the same performance as that window installed correctly?
> If my metal looks like crap or my trim work sucks or I have big globs of caulking or I don't wipe it down any other host of installation screw ups. Even little things like showing the customer the proper way to operate the window make a difference.
> Yes, many guys do install them too tight, which only speaks to my point that installation is what sets a company apart. There are many good windows out there,there are many hunks of crap too.
> One little draft, will make that cup of coffee in ten years that they would have saved immaterial.
> It's great you have a relationship with your manufacturer, I do not these days but have done in the seven digits with manufactures in the past,had my own line with them even had my own name on the locks. Was my window really all that better than some of the other companies best line,probably not.
> I like a window with certain features,not a big fan of clad windows like you offer,I like a Tremco glass unit,as opposed to a standard hermetic.A Caldwell balancer as opposed to the string balancer or the coiled spring set-up, a stainless steel cam,with no di-cast parts and a good chambered solid extrusion with triple pile seals and a sloped sill with triple bulb seal and final pile seal and brass compression locks.
> You might like something else.
> In all my years,I've never seen one that tight it cracked the glass, but I'm sure it's possible, though I'm also sure there were other factors at play.


I've worked for companies in the past that had their windows "branded" and they were no better or in some cases even the exact same Windows their competition was selling. 

We offer a clad window with a thermal break to eliminate transfer. We also offer a true composite window with a triple pane glass pack. 

As far as the features you describe all of my competition has a sloped seal they all have an extruded vinyl with strength chambers everyone welds their corners no one is using a metal spacer these days and none of these items have mattered since the early 90's. Guys are still out there pitching it and that's why we sell behind them so effectively. 

In 2005 I wrote 1.3 as a Sales Manager and the office I ran did 3.8 in a small market. The key is having an exclusive product and a proven system for selling that product. That company was bought out big changes came and I left but that is another story for another day. Lol

I've sold some crap Windows over the years. Those spiral balancers were a nightmare, the stupid cord system you mentioned and the cords would break. 2 lite sliders that leaked air or patio doors that wouldn't slide. 

All in all most of my competition is competent on the install side. I would hire 90% of the guys putting in Windows in this town to work for me tomorrow. If we pitched install we wouldn't sell much. Insulating weight pockets and knowing how to run a brake is expected or don't even call yourself an installer. Your market is probably bigger so you probably see some botched jobs. We rarely do. We mostly see crappy products or just run of the mill stuff. 

When the competition sells a ford or a Chevy and you have the only Ferrari dealership it sets you apart. It also scares some clients away. They hear that we are expensive and they are afraid to call us.


----------



## Ohnojim

*As long as you believe in it, that's the key.*

But, the "exclusive" product is a matter of semantics. I sold out my piece of the company right about the time the $189 installed guys started up.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> But, the "exclusive" product is a matter of semantics. I sold out my piece of the company right about the time the $189 installed guys started up.


I have to admit the $189.00 guys hurt us at first and we had to change the way we did business. To this day if someone is buying windows for a rental or a flip I actually tell them which $189.00 guy to call. Those people are not my customers and I don't want their business.

As for exclusives they are only semantics if they aren't truly exclusive. As I stated earlier the ONLY product we offer that is not exclusive to us is the Metal Shingle and it's one of our biggest sellers because of our installers. It takes specialized skills and equipment to do a metal shingle right. 

When it comes to windows a monkey or worse a P&P contractor LOL could put them in. Yeah it takes a decent contractor to brake metal and make it look good without face nails showing everywhere but we have several guys who are top notch and so do my competitors. We use Isynene to insulate weight pockets and around the window when possible. Most of our competitors do not even know what isynene is or how to use it. Would I buy from us based on that? NO WAY especially when the $189.00 guy says he does a great job also. 

I would buy because we have the products the other guys can't or won't get. 

http://www.thv.com/index.html 

http://www.bristolwindows.com/

http://kensingtonhpp.com/600-series

http://www.schueco.com/web/us/homeowners/windows_and_doors/products/windows/pvc_u_windows

http://www.spdcontrolsystems.com/spdglass.htm

We also deal with 3 manufacturers that will make me anything we want. The manufacturer I like best only has Nickel oxide Low E and can't make double hungs wider than 46" or taller than 78" so I can't do much business with them but their delivery times and their ability to do custom work is top notch. 

There are exciting things happening with windows when it comes to glass technology and smart glass. Soon we will be able to offer the customer a window they can see through that insulates as well as the wall they can't.


----------



## Ohnojim

*OK, you're a bigger window geek than me*

but, I'm sort of semi-retired. I am familiar with some of the stuff, but no longer on the cutting edge. In fact I signed a no compete agreement and wasn't supposed to sell windows in a material way for 5 years. that was 10 years ago.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> but, I'm sort of semi-retired. I am familiar with some of the stuff, but no longer on the cutting edge. In fact I signed a no compete agreement and wasn't supposed to sell windows in a material way for 5 years. that was 10 years ago.


No worries man it's cool to talk to someone that knows the business. 

I really just wanted you to understand when I say I am doing something different I don't mean the locks say our company name on them.

I enjoy the window business alot I think I may like the roofing better but in a perfect world I would make truly custom and quality homes the problem is they would be 800 sqft and cost a million dollars. 

Here is a metal roof job we did. I think TCV was somewhere north of 50K but the project looked great in the end. We had to redeck the house and install metal shingles.


----------



## Ohnojim

*You know, I just don't like the look of those shingles*

you can see all seams/locks,the valley looks terrible and the transition is wavy. Not for me at all. Not saying it wasn't installed correctly, but it just looks bad.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> you can see all seams/locks,the valley looks terrible and the transition is wavy. Not for me at all. Not saying it wasn't installed correctly, but it just looks bad.



That's how it looks it goes on like siding and the valley pan is a lot like an inside corner piece. The seams are visible the look a little like Legos. It will last 50 years and the whole roof will come off before a single shingle does. That property is out in the country and gets major wind. The home owner never has to worry again about storm damage. It's a great product.


----------



## Ohnojim

*I'm not knocking the work, just the product.*

To me, it looks terrible. A nice standing seam roof would would have been my choice on that house. But, that's me. The lumpy look would drive me nuts.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> To me, it looks terrible. A nice standing seam roof would would have been my choice on that house. But, that's me. The lumpy look would drive me nuts.


We have never once had a complaint about the look. It's never been an issue. Mist people can't even tell that it's not a regular shingle. I think like you that you sacrifice a little bit on aesthetics to get the durability.

I would have put a standard d rib metal on that old farm house if it had been mine the customer had their mind made up. It would have been cheaper as well.

I think the seams show up more on the 4/12 pitches than they do on the steeper roofs but like I said it's never been an issue.


----------



## Ohnojim

*It's the same issue metal shingles have always had*

OK for roofs with no valleys or transitions or ridges. My customers tend to be more discerning, and I would really have to manage expectations. The valleys are the worst, seems there should be a better way. To me a closed valley on any shingle looks like a hack job to begin with, then add the ugly channel and the lumps to it and you really have a puss case. Is there an open valley technique available?


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> OK for roofs with no valleys or transitions or ridges. My customers tend to be more discerning, and I would really have to manage expectations. The valleys are the worst, seems there should be a better way. To me a closed valley on any shingle looks like a hack job to begin with, then add the ugly channel and the lumps to it and you really have a puss case. Is there an open valley technique available?



We can't do open valleys in our market per code. So it wouldn't matter. If you did try an open valley you would then have the cut ends of the panel exposed and it would look awful. I love the look of this valley so maybe it's a matter of taste. I do like the open valley metal pans with certain shingles.


----------



## Bigtrucker

Looks great to me except for the green trim.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Bigtrucker said:


> Looks great to me except for the green trim.



I still hate the green trim. Again the client made that choice not us.


----------



## safeguard dropout

50 year roof? Whats the difference in longevity/durability/cost between this and a standard steel ribbed roof? I'm not a roofer by any stretch, so they all look great to me. Also, what about these new windows that insulate as good as walls. How do they do that? Expensive?


Joe, you showed some pics in another thread of some window wraps. Nice work! For anyone who hasn't tried that it is a freikin art. I tried it once, um not for me. Finish carpentry more my flavor in fine craftsmanship. I installed overhead garage doors for 10 years and I can't tell you how many guys that should not have been allowed to run a break. Wavy jamb wraps and my vinyl weather seal would never lay flat. Made my finish product look stupid on 1/2 million dollars homes.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> 50 year roof? Whats the difference in longevity/durability/cost between this and a standard steel ribbed roof? I'm not a roofer by any stretch, so they all look great to me. Also, what about these new windows that insulate as good as walls. How do they do that? Expensive?


Right now the best insulating window we can offer is almost an R-12 so it's not as good as a wall yet but technology is getting there. 

The metal roof is really nothing like the typical d rib or standing seam metal roofs. 

All good products cost more that's why the competition doesn't carry them.


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> Right now the best insulating window we can offer is almost an R-12 so it's not as good as a wall yet but technology is getting there.
> 
> The metal roof is really nothing like the typical d rib or standing seam metal roofs.
> 
> All good products cost more that's why the competition doesn't carry them.



The competition doesn't carry the more expensive product because probably only about 1 in 10 buy that expensive product. I'd rather be part of the 90% then have to convince someone why my product is better. That being said, we don't have anything here but shingle roof's. So our choices are 2 different 3 tabs and color


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> The competition doesn't carry the more expensive product because probably only about 1 in 10 buy that expensive product. I'd rather be part of the 90% then have to convince someone why my product is better. That being said, we don't have anything here but shingle roof's. So our choices are 2 different 3 tabs and color



How are you going to get the big bucks if you do exactly what the competition does? Being part of the majority is why people can't get good money for their products. 

Good products are everywhere I guarantee someone in your market offers more than just a shingle.


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> How are you going to get the big bucks if you do exactly what the competition does? Being part of the majority is why people can't get good money for their products.
> 
> Good products are everywhere I guarantee someone in your market offers more than just a shingle.



Better product for the most part means more money in revenue as a whole, it doesn't necessarily mean that labor is higher which means higher profit. If you install a crap sliding door from home depot as apposed to an anderson or pella you can't get more labor to do the install, it's just a better product which means a higher final price tag. The job is the same no matter what product you use in this example.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> Better product for the most part means more money in revenue as a whole, it doesn't necessarily mean that labor is higher which means higher profit. If you install a crap sliding door from home depot as apposed to an anderson or pella you can't get more labor to do the install, it's just a better product which means a higher final price tag. The job is the same no matter what product you use in this example.



Wow! Why would labor even matter? 

I have to pay more to get metal shingles installed because it's more time consuming but that isn't how I make money on them. First of all profit is about net not gross. If you sell a patio door for 3,000.00 and one is a pella and one is a crest line you will net more on the crest line. 

Why would you want to buy a product from any company for more than what you have to? When buying a car people shop for the best deal and they should after all once you have decided on a make and model it's the same car. People who drive ferrari's brag about the outrageous price tag. 

We offer a metal roof that lasts 50 years yet doesn't look like a pole barn, we offer triple pane Windows that save energy, we have siding that doesn't get chewed up by the weed eater or warp up when the gas grill gets to close. We make a better margin on our sales than the competition. We make more profit in one job than they do in several. We do this by offering the customer something different. 

The reason it's so hard to get money in P&P is anyone can cut grass or carry a couch. There is no reason you should pay me double what the competition is asking. I can't justify why you would. Quality is not a concern for most of the banks. As long as the property doesn't have a violation all they care about is price and volume.


----------



## Ohnojim

*If DECRA and other manufaturers would spend some time developing*

better accessories, to produce a more convincing depiction of the products the are trying to emulate, I might sell them too. As long as the trim and accessories look like aluminum siding from the 1960s, I'll have to pass. I've spent a lot of time developing techniques to that end. I see no reason to go backwards. 

It's the same issue all stamped snap-lock products have. There a lots of products out there with both better wind ratings and warranties. 

These products have really made no appreciable advances in decades, with the exception of gluing some stones to them. Which is actually kind of funny when you think about it, one fake product trying to look like another fake product. 

But, it's the newest "tin-man" thing going and it will be hot for a while, if that's your bag, hey go for it. 

There are many ways to install these products that actually make them look like something, but getting warranty approval for them is hit and miss.


----------



## Ohnojim

*Hey, those are my window wraps.*



safeguard dropout said:


> 50 year roof? Whats the difference in longevity/durability/cost between this and a standard steel ribbed roof? I'm not a roofer by any stretch, so they all look great to me. Also, what about these new windows that insulate as good as walls. How do they do that? Expensive?
> 
> 
> Joe, you showed some pics in another thread of some window wraps. Nice work! For anyone who hasn't tried that it is a freikin art. I tried it once, um not for me. Finish carpentry more my flavor in fine craftsmanship. I installed overhead garage doors for 10 years and I can't tell you how many guys that should not have been allowed to run a break. Wavy jamb wraps and my vinyl weather seal would never lay flat. Made my finish product look stupid on 1/2 million dollars homes.


Joe Who?


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> better accessories, to produce a more convincing depiction of the products the are trying to emulate, I might sell them too. As long as the trim and accessories look like aluminum siding from the 1960s, I'll have to pass. I've spent a lot of time developing techniques to that end. I see no reason to go backwards.
> 
> It's the same issue all stamped snap-lock products have. There a lots of products out there with both better wind ratings and warranties.
> 
> These products have really made no appreciable advances in decades, with the exception of gluing some stones to them. Which is actually kind of funny when you think about it, one fake product trying to look like another fake product.
> 
> But, it's the newest "tin-man" thing going and it will be hot for a while, if that's your bag, hey go for it.
> 
> There are many ways to install these products that actually make them look like something, but getting warranty approval for them is hit and miss.


Again never had a complaint and we have been doing them since 05 so for us it's not a new thing. We also do more than Decra as a matter of fact we are only doing Decra when the customer chooses something we can't get anywhere else. 

My installers don't like the fact that it can only be installed in one direction. 

If you have a client that doesn't like the "look" you might point out the "look" of their siding. There are seams everywhere on the side of every house it's the same thing. 

We aren't selling a "look" anyway we are selling durability. You can drive through brand new subdivisions after a wind storm and there will be 50 squares on the ground. GAF manufactures their shingles right here and they are absolute garbage. My favorite question is how many more roofs are you planning to put on this house?


----------



## safeguard dropout

Ohnojim said:


> Joe Who?


Sorry OhnoJim!


----------



## Ohnojim

*No, it's not a new thing*



Craigslist Hack said:


> Again never had a complaint and we have been doing them since 05 so for us it's not a new thing. We also do more than Decra as a matter of fact we are only doing Decra when the customer chooses something we can't get anywhere else.
> 
> My installers don't like the fact that it can only be installed in one direction.
> 
> If you have a client that doesn't like the "look" you might point out the "look" of their siding. There are seams everywhere on the side of every house it's the same thing.
> 
> We aren't selling a "look" anyway we are selling durability. You can drive through brand new subdivisions after a wind storm and there will be 50 squares on the ground. GAF manufactures their shingles right here and they are absolute garbage. My favorite question is how many more roofs are you planning to put on this house?


Gluing the gravel to them is the only new thing about then, sort of my point.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

Ohnojim said:


> Gluing the gravel to them is the only new thing about then, sort of my point.


It's a million times better than the alternatives.


----------



## BRADSConst

Craigslist Hack said:


> It's a million times better than the alternatives.


Whose product is that? and is it steel or aluminum?


----------



## safeguard dropout

I'm not a roofer, I've said that before, so call me stupid...but I think the brown looks like vinyl. Yes?


----------



## madxtreme01

What everyone seems to miss is that not every product is installed in every area. The roofing product that is shown above which looks like vinyl to me would never withstand the harsh winters in the north east.


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> Again never had a complaint and we have been doing them since 05 so for us it's not a new thing. We also do more than Decra as a matter of fact we are only doing Decra when the customer chooses something we can't get anywhere else.
> 
> My installers don't like the fact that it can only be installed in one direction.
> 
> If you have a client that doesn't like the "look" you might point out the "look" of their siding. There are seams everywhere on the side of every house it's the same thing.
> 
> We aren't selling a "look" anyway we are selling durability. You can drive through brand new subdivisions after a wind storm and there will be 50 squares on the ground. GAF manufactures their shingles right here and they are absolute garbage. My favorite question is how many more roofs are you planning to put on this house?


Do you have any idea what the average time that a family will stay in a home? Last I looked (it was several years ago) and the answer was 9 years. To be honest if that was true I wouldn't care what the roof was rated for, I care more about the efficiency. If a regular asphalt roof lasts 30 years and cost an average of $10k and a metal roof would last 50+ but costs $25k, I'd rather go with the less expensive. If you buy a house at lets say 30, by the time you need to replace the metal roof you wouldn't even be living in that house anymore. I'll take my chances. Here in NJ there are only a few types of siding materials. Most common is vinyl, aluminum is available, but is hard to find. Then you can get brick or stone, and last is stucco. They all perform the same for the most part, it's a matter of what look you would like on the outside of your home.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> What everyone seems to miss is that not every product is installed in every area. The roofing product that is shown above which looks like vinyl to me would never withstand the harsh winters in the north east.


Royal Used to make a Panel for Canadian Winters and some companies still do. They hold up better than a shinlge but I'm still a fan of standing seam or d-rib in climates that receive heavy snow fall


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> Do you have any idea what the average time that a family will stay in a home? Last I looked (it was several years ago) and the answer was 9 years. To be honest if that was true I wouldn't care what the roof was rated for, I care more about the efficiency. If a regular asphalt roof lasts 30 years and cost an average of $10k and a metal roof would last 50+ but costs $25k, I'd rather go with the less expensive. If you buy a house at lets say 30, by the time you need to replace the metal roof you wouldn't even be living in that house anymore. I'll take my chances. Here in NJ there are only a few types of siding materials. Most common is vinyl, aluminum is available, but is hard to find. Then you can get brick or stone, and last is stucco. They all perform the same for the most part, it's a matter of what look you would like on the outside of your home.


That way of thinking is exactly why you struggle with profitability. You have a million reasons why people won't spend the money when I can't imagine a reason not to. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. I have also NEVER seen a 30 year shingle. I have seen shingles that claim to be 30year shingles and I have seen them in the yard.

I would never even run a lead with a client that plans to sell their house because that is a built in objection that I can't overcome. If I can't sell the lead why leave the house? There are 30 low ball companies in the phone book cutting each others throats to get that customer. They are trying to figure out a way to sell a roof over for less than $150.00 a square while we are selling metal for more profit on one job than they make in a month. Now I will be the first to tell you we don't do nearly as many roofs a month as my competitors. I also don't have nearly the liability.

Here are a few pics of a $45,000.00 job we did in the country near a town of maybe 300 people. The guy owned a grain elevator and was tired of screwing with junk shingles. He paid cash and was great to work for.


----------



## madxtreme01

looks great, and in your area that might work. In this area there is no such thing as a $45k roof unless its a 15k sq ft house. EVERY and I mean EVERY house in the area I am in has a shingle roof. Most are moving towards the timberline type of roof as their standard 3 tab wears away, but the roofs around here last on average of about 20 years. Vast majority is longer though. Every market is different, and when you have a house that is work 500k it's kinda hard selling them on a roof that's 1/10th the value of the house unless there is a valid reason for needing it. I've never even seen the type of materials you are referring to around here and I am not talking about Home Depot and Lowe's


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> looks great, and in your area that might work. In this area there is no such thing as a $45k roof unless its a 15k sq ft house. EVERY and I mean EVERY house in the area I am in has a shingle roof. Most are moving towards the timberline type of roof as their standard 3 tab wears away, but the roofs around here last on average of about 20 years. Vast majority is longer though. Every market is different, and when you have a house that is work 500k it's kinda hard selling them on a roof that's 1/10th the value of the house unless there is a valid reason for needing it. I've never even seen the type of materials you are referring to around here and I am not talking about Home Depot and Lowe's


Menard's carries metal roofing and so does ABC, and Shelter. I've put 20,000.00 roofs on 50,000 homes many times. The last shingle roof we did we charged 12k for and it went on a 6,000.00 house. 

I will say if I pull up and the place is a dump I may try to steer the homeowner to the D-rib metal or something that makes more sense. One great way to sell a ribbed metal panel is to use code to your advantage. If they have 2 layers they cannot go over it with another layer of shingles so we offer them metal and by the time you figure in tear off and labor etc the price is comparable.

I don't know what market you are in but back in the day I was a sales manager for a triple pane window company. It was a nationwide outfit and windows sold for about 800-1000 an opening. Every one would say you can't sell them for that in our market blah blah blah and I would hop a plane and fly to wherever and sell windows with the guys from the office. Part of the key is the buyer. You aren't going to sell a high end product to an investor or a flipper or someone that plans to move soon. If they are a finance buyer you need to get an idea of what their credit rating is before you even bust out a sample. I guarantee beyond any doubt that your market is no different than mine. I've sold windows in San Diego, Indianapolis, St. Louis, Nashville, Tampa, Cincinnati, Lincoln, and Houston. I used the same sales approach and the same proven method of closing everywhere. I would usually get an override on what the office sold for the next 4 months and that's how they paid me. I would get 5% of the total volume of the office but I bought my own plane tickets and paid for my own hotels. I was younger and far more aggressive than i am now.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

BRADSConst said:


> Whose product is that? and is it steel or aluminum?


I tried to PM you but your inbox is full.


----------



## BRADSConst

Craigslist Hack said:


> I tried to PM you but your inbox is full.


I emptied it


----------



## madxtreme01

we don't have those national chains here. Windows are something that I do not know much about so I don't want to give information that I am not familiar with, but the obvious thing is that triple pane is better than double pane, how long until someone offers quadruple. Doesn't mean that there is a real advantage. I would say it would have to depend on how efficient the rest of the house is.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> we don't have those national chains here. Windows are something that I do not know much about so I don't want to give information that I am not familiar with, but the obvious thing is that triple pane is better than double pane, how long until someone offers quadruple. Doesn't mean that there is a real advantage. I would say it would have to depend on how efficient the rest of the house is.


I'll tell you a secret. Triple pane is a selling tool. When we get to the end and I shoot them a price they say "well thanks for coming out we are going to shop around and we will get back to you" I ask if it's going to be triple pane? They always say yes. Then I ask who they are going to call to "shop" me? Guess what no one else has triple pane and they just told me they weren't buying anything else.

The only difference between your market and mine is the number of idiots selling the exact same thing.

When was the last time you went to a Home Show? or a product expo?


----------



## madxtreme01

I don't go because like I have said previously, although I have knowledge of construction and do it occasionally for people I know or recommendations. I only do P&P & REO, so the cheapest crap I can find goes into these houses so my profit margins are as high as possible.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I don't go because like I have said previously, although I have knowledge of construction and do it occasionally for people I know or recommendations. I only do P&P & REO, so the cheapest crap I can find goes into these houses so my profit margins are as high as possible.



Well that's exactly how to do P&P. You might go to a home show and check out what people are doing in your market. I also recommend going to a home show somewhere far far away from where you live. Take the woman for a weekend vacation fly allegiant air for cheap. 

So many guys will buy a truck or a mower but they don't invest in themselves. You get so busy chopping wood you don't take time to sharpen your axe. 

You may discover a love of concrete countertops or outdoor kitchens who knows? Remember when gutter guard or gutter topper hit your market and everyone had to have it? Back in those days guys were selling it for 18-20 a lf. It was like printing money.


----------



## BRADSConst

Craigslist Hack said:


> So many guys will buy a truck or a mower but they don't invest in themselves. You get so busy chopping wood you don't take time to sharpen your axe.


 This advice is sig line worthy :notworthy:


----------



## mtmtnman

Talk to people in Billings MT about shingles. Many have had 2 new shingle roofs in a years time due to hailstorms. Something like 4,000 roof replaced from the last storm. LOTS of metal shingles being sold down that way now. They may dent slightly but they DO NOT blow off and DO NOT fall apart.

DECRA Roofing Systems, Inc. each DECRA roofing panel (“Panel(s)”) will: (1) remain free from manufacturing defects that would adversely affect the performance of the Panels; (2) be resistant to blow-offs in wind velocities up to 120 miles per hour; and (3) resist hail damage, (the “Lifetime Limited Warranty”). For the purpose of this Lifetime Limited Warranty, hail damage is defined as follows: (1) penetration of hail stones completely through the Panel; or (2) cracks or splits of the Panel’s steel substrate around the point of impact.

Same with Vinyl siding. After multiple hail claims people are going toward Hardi-Plank cement siding.....


----------



## mtmtnman

http://www.decra.com/casestudies/CaseStudy-Schwieger Home-HailWind.pdf


----------



## Ohnojim

*On big simple runs the stuff is great.*



Craigslist Hack said:


> That way of thinking is exactly why you struggle with profitability. You have a million reasons why people won't spend the money when I can't imagine a reason not to. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. I have also NEVER seen a 30 year shingle. I have seen shingles that claim to be 30year shingles and I have seen them in the yard.
> 
> I would never even run a lead with a client that plans to sell their house because that is a built in objection that I can't overcome. If I can't sell the lead why leave the house? There are 30 low ball companies in the phone book cutting each others throats to get that customer. They are trying to figure out a way to sell a roof over for less than $150.00 a square while we are selling metal for more profit on one job than they make in a month. Now I will be the first to tell you we don't do nearly as many roofs a month as my competitors. I also don't have nearly the liability.
> 
> Here are a few pics of a $45,000.00 job we did in the country near a town of maybe 300 people. The guy owned a grain elevator and was tired of screwing with junk shingles. He paid cash and was great to work for.


Ideal for that stuff.


----------



## Wannabe

when hail hits that stuff It puts spider webs at Impact point that turns to rust within 2 months of Date of Loss. It's a PIA to repair.


----------



## madxtreme01

exactly my point how every area is different. we don't get hail storms on the east coast, we also don't get 120mph winds. our severe weather is snow and ice. normal high winds don't exceed 30-40mph with the occasional gusts during a storm of 50-60mph so the issues with shingles or siding just doesn't happen here. I guess that's good for us that we get to get away with using less expensive materials.


----------



## NCnewbie

Wannabe said:


> when hail hits that stuff It puts spider webs at Impact point that turns to rust within 2 months of Date of Loss. It's a PIA to repair.


Just a question, how does that repair go on this material? Doesn't seem to be much to work with or logical to grind it down to get the rust out. Is there a rust inhibitive paint to put on that would cover it and be effective?


----------



## Wannabe

That I don't know. In my world the Ins Co has to repair/replace but recently I've been hearing grumbling amongst Ins Adjusters about the warranties. We don't see this product much...primarily cost. It is a beautiful product though. Personally I like the Pace foam roofs for durability but the look is odd to me.


----------



## Ohnojim

*The better metal shingles are*



Wannabe said:


> when hail hits that stuff It puts spider webs at Impact point that turns to rust within 2 months of Date of Loss. It's a PIA to repair.


UL 2218 Class 4, the highest impact rating. But, yeah the cheaper brands can be a real problem. and repair is not really an option.


----------



## mtmtnman

Ohnojim said:


> UL 2218 Class 4, the highest impact rating. But, yeah the cheaper brands can be a real problem. and repair is not really an option.



Yeah, No real issues with what they are using here. Also easy to swap out a damage panel or 2 if needed. I will say though, Galvanic corrosion is not so likely here with only 14-16" of rain a year.....


----------



## Craigslist Hack

mtmtnman said:


> Yeah, No real issues with what they are using here. Also easy to swap out a damage panel or 2 if needed. I will say though, Galvanic corrosion is not so likely here with only 14-16" of rain a year.....



Most panels are hot dipped during the manufacturing process. I have seen panels beat up by hail and all they do is dent.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> exactly my point how every area is different. we don't get hail storms on the east coast, we also don't get 120mph winds. our severe weather is snow and ice. normal high winds don't exceed 30-40mph with the occasional gusts during a storm of 50-60mph so the issues with shingles or siding just doesn't happen here. I guess that's good for us that we get to get away with using less expensive materials.


How is using less expensive materials good?

Lean your snow shovel against some of that crappy vinyl siding and watch what happens. If you live in the north east they are doing Hardi Board up there, triple pane Windows, metal roofs everywhere.


----------



## AceVentura

Wannabe said:


> That I don't know. In my world the Ins Co has to repair/replace but recently I've been hearing grumbling amongst Ins Adjusters about the warranties. We don't see this product much...primarily cost. It is a beautiful product though. Personally I like the Pace foam roofs for durability but the look is odd to me.


I know that a few years ago there was some type of recall with the organic shingles - because they were all curling - I think to get the warranty on those the homeowner had to be the one to install the roof - (own the property when work was done)

There is another recall / action with the timberline shingles right now -

So many ways to get the customers to shi* their pants about a contractors knowledge of how to get them some money back for doing a roof.

If my knees weren't all fd up I would be doing roofs all day everyday.


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> How is using less expensive materials good?
> 
> Lean your snow shovel against some of that crappy vinyl siding and watch what happens. If you live in the north east they are doing Hardi Board up there, triple pane Windows, metal roofs everywhere.



I've lived in this state for the past 20 years and I haven't seen any renovations using these products. Come take a look around. We have prices ranging from the low end of 50k for a trailer to the 10 mil range for a mansion and I can't say that I have seen anything of this sort here. Vinyl siding is very common and no nothing happens when you lean your shovel on it, maybe it's made different here, but it's pretty flexible. No metal roofs, I mean a few random ones, but 99%+ are shingles. Tripple pane windows are obviously not able to be viewed from the street, so I can't comment on that, but most houses I have been in as well as people I know only have double. Most common is just a vinyl replacement and some higher end anderson or pella.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I've lived in this state for the past 20 years and I haven't seen any renovations using these products. Come take a look around. We have prices ranging from the low end of 50k for a trailer to the 10 mil range for a mansion and I can't say that I have seen anything of this sort here. Vinyl siding is very common and no nothing happens when you lean your shovel on it, maybe it's made different here, but it's pretty flexible. No metal roofs, I mean a few random ones, but 99%+ are shingles. Tripple pane windows are obviously not able to be viewed from the street, so I can't comment on that, but most houses I have been in as well as people I know only have double. Most common is just a vinyl replacement and some higher end anderson or pella.



It's there it goes on everyday. I've been up there and sold in Connecticut and Pennsylvania, Maryland, Rhode Island, and I've met Million dollar producers from up there at company dinners and awards banquets. It's not only there it's probably stronger there than anywhere in the country. I've met guys from Vermont that get Crazy Crazy high dollars for jobs. If it's not prevelant in your community maybe you should be the guy? I see an opportunity here for you. What state you in exactly?


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> It's there it goes on everyday. I've been up there and sold in Connecticut and Pennsylvania, Maryland, Rhode Island, and I've met Million dollar producers from up there at company dinners and awards banquets. It's not only there it's probably stronger there than anywhere in the country. I've met guys from Vermont that get Crazy Crazy high dollars for jobs. If it's not prevelant in your community maybe you should be the guy? I see an opportunity here for you. What state you in exactly?



I am in Central NJ


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I am in Central NJ


http://www.americanroofingandsiding.com/Metal-Roofing.htm

http://www.metalroofingnj.com/

http://www.njmetalroofing.com/

http://www.rosselliroofingandsiding.com/metal-roofing-types.htm

http://www.globalhomeinc.com/news/shingle-roofing/atas-metal-shingle-styles/

A quick search and I guess you are right there is no demand for metal roofing in your area and no one does it. :vs_smile:


----------



## Ohnojim

*I did one job out in North Jersey and The Pocanos*

I didn't get out of there for two years. Every body and their brother wanted one, literally.


----------



## madxtreme01

I know that you just did a search for NJ, but just remember that just because a company offers it doesn't mean that it is a popular solution. Also every one you sent is at the tip of north jersey with the exception of 1 which is still an hour away. So what happens in different markets is a different story. I know about the area I live in.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I know that you just did a search for NJ, but just remember that just because a company offers it doesn't mean that it is a popular solution. Also every one you sent is at the tip of north jersey with the exception of 1 which is still an hour away. So what happens in different markets is a different story. I know about the area I live in.



I know about the area you live in as well. It's filled with the same homeowners as the rest of the country with the same wants needs and incomes. 

There are very few markets where people are just sitting on a stack of money saying give me the best cost is not an issue. 

You are making excuses for mediocrity which is fine if mediocrity is your goal. 

I'm not being rude I feel like you are probably newer to the business and have a very limited knowledge of what works and what doesn't. I'm not hating on you or judging. There was once a time when I was selling a high end product and I was jealous of the low ballers. I even went to work for one of those cheap companies for a short spell. I hated it. I had to write twice as many orders to make half the money. 

In the end I saw that offering people what they can already get anywhere is not how you make money. If you look at Apple they are killing it and they are doing so with better products at a higher price. People are willing to pay more but they have to know why they should. I bought an exhaust system today I'm not really a car guy so I had to be educated before I made a decision. In the end I bought the most expensive option they showed me because I felt it would last the longest and give my truck the most horsepower and a better sound. 

If I were in your shoes I would study my market. Not just make assumptions but truly study it. You will find opportunity if you simply open your mind. Best of luck man.


----------



## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> I know about the area you live in as well. It's filled with the same homeowners as the rest of the country with the same wants needs and incomes.
> 
> There are very few markets where people are just sitting on a stack of money saying give me the best cost is not an issue.
> 
> You are making excuses for mediocrity which is fine if mediocrity is your goal.
> 
> I'm not being rude I feel like you are probably newer to the business and have a very limited knowledge of what works and what doesn't. I'm not hating on you or judging. There was once a time when I was selling a high end product and I was jealous of the low ballers. I even went to work for one of those cheap companies for a short spell. I hated it. I had to write twice as many orders to make half the money.
> 
> In the end I saw that offering people what they can already get anywhere is not how you make money. If you look at Apple they are killing it and they are doing so with better products at a higher price. People are willing to pay more but they have to know why they should. I bought an exhaust system today I'm not really a car guy so I had to be educated before I made a decision. In the end I bought the most expensive option they showed me because I felt it would last the longest and give my truck the most horsepower and a better sound.
> 
> If I were in your shoes I would study my market. Not just make assumptions but truly study it. You will find opportunity if you simply open your mind. Best of luck man.



I'm not a roofer so it doesn't really interest me. I know there are many different products out there, some more common than others. Just out of curiosity what exhaust did you buy and what did you put it on.


----------



## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I'm not a roofer so it doesn't really interest me. I know there are many different products out there, some more common than others. Just out of curiosity what exhaust did you buy and what did you put it on.


I bought a magna flow system turbo something or other dual exhaust for a Dodge with the 5.7 hemi. My biggest concern is I'm hard on vehicles because I see them as tools things to be used to make a buck. The last exhaust I broke crossing a creek to get to a property for a National. Maybe I should send that company in NH the bill for yesterday's repairs?


----------



## madxtreme01

i had a magnaflow on my 04 ram, it ended up rotting out because it was on there when I bought it and they didn't buy the stainless steel one. The salt on the roads rotted it away within the year after I bought it. I replaced it with a borla. I liked the magnaflow sound much better. Now I run a F350 Diesel so the exhaust days are over unless I delete it and that would be against the law so with commercial plates I can't take a chance and it is staying stock


----------

