# problems in P &amp; P or REO maintenance



## Guest

Since I sold out and retired in 2010 I have been getting emails and phone calls about so many changes in the industry. I am sure with those changes come many problems also. I have been speaking with some of the very top m & m's and they also say there are problems.
I am trying to find out what the most common problems seem to be in P & P work or Reo maintenance today.
I read posts of no pay, bad companies, no bids accepted, etc. what else seems to be plaguing this industry today? I would love the opportunity to address some of these new problems specifically with the M & Ms. Maybe that is a good place to start so we can possibly implement some positive changes.
Any responses will be greatly appreciated.


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## Guest

Multible emails asking same bs questions everyday when you have gave your answer 5 xs already....These start up companys who have no idea whats goin on and screw it all up(dont buy right locks,bid 100 for a 500 job etc) no insurance lisc etc.


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## Guest

How do the startups get work orders without the proper insurance? And not using correct locks should give them a no pay on an initial secure. Meaning the next guy who does it right gets the full pay.
You know the hounding of vendor managers is a legitimate pain in the arse and I agree that needs to be addressed. There is absolutely NO reason for them to do that.


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## brm1109

*Problems*

I think that one of the biggest problems is with the underbidding. There are so called nationals popping up everyday and when they contact us to do work, the pricing is unbelievable.
For whatever reason, the industry as I see it is going to continue to go down hill just because any honest company playing by the rules with insurance and taxes can't work for some of these undercut fees. That means all the companies will get are the contractors that cheat and take shortcuts. In the end the clients will pay more for the damages to their properties than they would have if done right the first time.


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## Gypsos

I come from a commercial construction background. I started at the bottom and worked my way up to run entire companies. My experience and observations on this website show me that the problems plaguing P&P are similar to what plagues construction. 

1. Not getting paid in a timely manner - It is a simple fact of life that the lowest tier subcontractors finance the project. Most General Contractors make you sign contracts that provide that you only get paid *if* they get paid, not necessarily when they get paid. How many times have we heard, “We are just a little behind right now, your check will be sent soon.” But if we get a little behind we get penalized.

2. The price you get paid is not the same as the price that was agreed upon - When they do get paid they want to discuss your invoice and the amount you are going to get, after they have already approved it. How about this one, “The invoiced amount was changed to cover only 30 CY because I just could not see 40 CY yards of debris in the pictures.”

3. There is always some new guy who has no clue about what the cost of doing business is willing to do it cheaper - The current rate for illegal immigrate workers in drywall in Central Florida is $60 per day cash for a 14 hour work day. How do I compete with this when I pay WC & CGL insurance, State and Federal unemployment insurance, employer Social Security contribution and a fair wage to my employees. The same goes for the guy who thinks $15 to cut grass is good money. There is no way he has the proper insurance. 

4. Insane project schedules that have absolutely no foundation in reality – the house has been empty and abandoned with no maintenance of any kind done for 3 years and I only have 3 days to to cut down and haul off the forest of shrubs, grass and trees, haul off the 20 CY of debris left in the yard and the 25 CY of debris left in the house and then scrub and polish it up like a shiny new penny. Really... who came up with this? I want to meet this numb skull. 

5. Communications, or lack thereof – Your contact is never reachable by phone and takes at least three days to return calls or emails. Then they want to know why you did not accomplish the job correctly or ask for guidance. When I was the Operations Manager at one of the companies I ran, it was policy that you could, and would, be fired for not answering your phone or returning calls quickly. We had no communication problems. People found ways to answer phones and return calls. 

6. Respect, or a lack thereof – Nobody likes to be talked down to. I have worked for coordinators that did exactly that. I recall asking for a couple of more days to complete a trash out because we found some issues when we got into it and was told that I would not get more time. If it was not done in the 3 days allotted a second vendor would be sent out to supplement my crew and I would be charged for it, so unless I wanted this to happen I needed to buy another truck and dump trailer and hire more people that day. 

7. Knowledge of what the job entails – Teach the people that we have to deal with what the job on our end entails. This is no cushy office job with A/C and a break room. When is rains we get wet. When it is cold out we freeze. When it is hot out we sweat. We go into abandoned buildings that have any number of unknown safety and health hazards. We clean up garbage, rotting food, feces, mold and any other manner of filth that is left behind for nothing near what the effort and risk is worth and we do a damn fine job of it too. 

This is what I have experienced. For the last 16 years I have had the scratch and claw and fight for every penny I have made and I have decided I am not going to do that anymore. I enjoy what I do, but I now limit myself to grass cuts and maids. The rest is simply not worth it to me.


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## Guest

I hate showing up at a property and none of my keys fit the lock,was secured 4 to 6 months ago and they went got dollar store lock..have call from site, get trip charge 2 weeks later get the w/o for resecure and go fix some jackass's work....wast my time n money..They dont get a charge back cause they are long gone


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## Guest

These are all great! Please keep them coming I am taking notes and I am hoping to form a panel of M & M'[s, HUD, and some bank representatives, to present these issues and hopefully address them one by one.
I have two owners of M & Ms on board so far and possibly a HUD Director. so far.


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## GTX63

Beverly S said:


> I am taking notes and I am hoping to form a panel of M & M'[s, HUD, and some bank representatives, to present these issues and hopefully address them one by one.
> I have two owners of M & Ms on board so far and possibly a HUD Director. so far.


 
Beverly, with all due respect, you are talking about forming a panel that would be seated by the creators of this mess. This is a nationwide problem that is not created by the worker bees in the offices (although it is taught). This is a culture that was started from the top down and it is spelled g r e e d.
The current administration, Banks, HUD, Fannie, Freddie, Safeguard, FAS, etc.

Underbid to get a large contract. Pay less than going rate to complete work. Implement a business model that shorts or chargesback invoices to recoup capitol. Using inexperienced labor to complete work when the qualified contractors cannot continue.
Boiler room deals with cronie insurance companies that cripple the business owner and enable the big boys to escape corporate liability. Creating unreasonable and suffocating requirements and time frames for completing and submitting work orders.

The National Bank Leaders are not interested in creating a plan that benefits anyone but themselves. That is why so many companies participating in this forum are leaving or going only with the locals for work on these properties.

Believing that these are only issues would be a mistake. Again, it is a *culture*.


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## Guest

Beverly there is enough "complaints" already to write your book


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> These are all great! Please keep them coming I am taking notes and I am hoping to form a panel of M & M'[s, HUD, and some bank representatives, to present these issues and hopefully address them one by one.
> I have two owners of M & Ms on board so far and possibly a HUD Director. so far.






Beverly I think your heart is in the right place.

How ever like GTX posted, I don't think its going to change.


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## mtmtnman

Gypsos said:


> 4. Insane project schedules that have absolutely no foundation in reality – the house has been empty and abandoned with no maintenance of any kind done for 3 years and I only have 3 days to to cut down and haul off the forest of shrubs, grass and trees, haul off the 20 CY of debris left in the yard and the 25 CY of debris left in the house and then scrub and polish it up like a shiny new penny. Really... who came up with this? I want to meet this numb skull.


That is one thing i really cannot understand. WTF is the major rush???????


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## Guest

When I spoke with Paul and suzanne they were the ones who suggested we include HUD because they have the power to enforce thew regulations, but must also have these infractions presented to them. So hopefully we will be able to at least get a starting point going. 
I am not talking about FAS or safeguard. They are not M & Ms they are jokes to this industry. You are right they are causing the problems. So let's get the contractors going with the REAL m& Ms and bypass those companies who prey on the uninformed. 
The biggest problem I see is that contractors are not being carefuil who they work for.
Once again, the difference between an m& M and a management company is this: An M & M has a direct contract with the bank to not only manage and maintain the banks properties but to also MARKET the properties as well, so any work a contractor does for them, will have only that M & M's name on all paperwork. The management companies are merely contractor started companies who manage third and fourth hand work orders for maintenance. They have absolutely NO power to list or approve a sale of any property. 
Why would you even want to work for a company who is only going to pay you 20 or 30 percent of any work order???
please do NOT confuse the word "Nationals" with M & Ms. Again a national is any company who chooses to contract with sub contractors in several states. they can be a second, third, fourth or even fifth tier company. guys please learn all the terminology and it will become a bit clearer why you are having problems. Go to work for the actual M & Ms.


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## Gypsos

Beverly S said:


> When I spoke with Paul and suzanne they were the ones who suggested we include HUD because they have the power to enforce thew regulations, but must also have these infractions presented to them. So hopefully we will be able to at least get a starting point going.
> I am not talking about FAS or safeguard. They are not M & Ms they are jokes to this industry. You are right they are causing the problems. So let's get the contractors going with the REAL m& Ms and bypass those companies who prey on the uninformed.
> The biggest problem I see is that contractors are not being carefuil who they work for.
> Once again, the difference between an m& M and a management company is this: An M & M has a direct contract with the bank to not only manage and maintain the banks properties but to also MARKET the properties as well, so any work a contractor does for them, will have only that M & M's name on all paperwork. The management companies are merely contractor started companies who manage third and fourth hand work orders for maintenance. They have absolutely NO power to list or approve a sale of any property.
> Why would you even want to work for a company who is only going to pay you 20 or 30 percent of any work order???
> please do NOT confuse the word "Nationals" with M & Ms. Again a national is any company who chooses to contract with sub contractors in several states. they can be a second, third, fourth or even fifth tier company. guys please learn all the terminology and it will become a bit clearer why you are having problems. Go to work for the actual M & Ms.


Until yesterday I had no clue such existed. Who exactly are the M&Ms? I do not see any of them looking for vendors. I can only work for the companies I know exist. 

How do I know a company I am talking to is or is not an M&M? 

Based on my experience, the higher you go up the food chain you go the less likely anyone is to give you the time of day, much less talk to you about doing work for them.


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## brm1109

*talk about schedules*

I just love when a company calls with a "rush order".
I get a call Friday at 2 pm for a rush order for winterization and secure that needs to be done ASAP.
Well I need to get my plumbing guy and we have other jobs but I can do it by Sunday afternoon.
There reply was sorry that is to long I will get someone else. 
Friday at 2 PM and Sunday is to long. Give me a break how long did you sit on the order?


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## Guest

The M & Ms are the actual companies who have the work orders from the bank directly. They ONLY take 20% discount ... " always". 
They are always looking for vendors who are " legitimate, insured, capable vendors. They do NOT advertise on craigslist or the like. They expect the knowledgeable contractors to come to them. That simple.
You don't know ? ask. 
America's Info mart, A2Z, First Preston, Bac, cyprexx,Pacific preservation, REO Allegiance, Shall I go on??? 
There are only about ten of the first tier M & Ms. This is why I say get together with other contractors in your state and cover larger areas.
They do NOT want to babysit individual contractors who will only do work orders in a 30 mile radius or only certain work. 
Listen hard... You absolutely MUST be able to do all the work on a property start to finish, no bull, no ifs and or butts. 
This is what they want. This is how it has always been. 
This is exactly why your second and third and fourth tier contractor companies get these work orders. because they have enough of you hungry subs that they can split it all up and divide it out and you have all the expenses and they make the money. Step back and take a look at the BIG picture. You contractors are running around chasing your own tails and can't see the entire forest because the trees are in the way. Stop!!! Take a look and sign on to make those work orders yourselves. If five contractors over a state can handle all the work in that state, you cut out three to ten lower rung companies.
Now, why do the M & Ms want direct contractors? Because them they KNOW who to call if there is a problem and they KNOW who will get that job done. Those rush orders are NOT from the bank, they are from a lower rung company who, by the time that order got to them it is almost due!! Not so with direct Bank M & Ms. Usually you get two to three days every order. Now is anyone grasping this big picture????
Go to each one's website and apply to be their Vendor. Simple enough? Stay away from Lamco and NVMS unless you are looking for auctions and inspections.


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## Guest

Pac Pres is a M&M? AIM is M&M? WTH?

I KNOW for a fact that AIM will screw you and screw you hard both in volume, territory size, and slashed invoices.

_I know this for a fact._

A2Z has poor pricing.

BAC is difficult to get with no matter what insurance you have.

Cyprexx...well, just search the forum for cyprexx and you will find all that you need to know about them.

REO Alliance doesn't have great prices either.

I have a very, very difficult time trying believe half of what Bev puts out so don't just trust her (I mean, the person is supposedly writing a book but I can barely read her posts...) or what I say. 

Look and see what has been written here and else where about any company. There is a search bar for a reason....

According to my research from the HUD website; only AMS and First Preston have contracts in my state (MN) with HUD. Wells Fargo in my area uses AIM and are not happy with them.


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## Guest

The HUD contracts are separate from the Marketing and Managing contracts of conventional loan properties. 
And it is REO allegiance not REO alliance. 
Hey if you don't want to believe me don't. I made money in this industry are you??? 
If you are having problems with some of the M & Ms them pehaps you need to be asking yourself why??? 
Absolutely NO company pays for poor work or incomplete work or bad attitudes or excuses. O.k.? 
I am giving FREE information, exactly what are you doing to help all these contractors???? 
i will spend time and walk any contractor through a work order absolutely FREE, will you??? 
What is your reason for NOT wanting anyone to know information that could help them?


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## Guest

Every single one of the M & Ms are very very picky and you had better know what you are doing to work for them. There is no room for shoddy work or guess work with any of them. They expect the contractors to be professional, period!

You know when someone tells me they have a problem with a particular M & M I look at why. 
If you have contractors who have never even been properly trained doing work for low rung companies and then they sign on with actual m&Ms they are not able to meet the standards. It makes sense, so brush up on your skills and for heaven's sake, ask why??? If some one cuts you back ask them why?? Ask what you can do to correct any deficiency they may feel you have. Be a little humble it will get you everywhere. 
Like I said these M & Ms are not going to baby sit, either you are a professional or you are not!.


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## Gypsos

Beverly S said:


> The M & Ms are the actual companies who have the work orders from the bank directly. They ONLY take 20% discount ... " always".
> They are always looking for vendors who are " legitimate, insured, capable vendors. They do NOT advertise on craigslist or the like. They expect the knowledgeable contractors to come to them. That simple.
> You don't know ? ask.
> America's Info mart, A2Z, First Preston, Bac, cyprexx,Pacific preservation, REO Allegiance, Shall I go on???
> There are only about ten of the first tier M & Ms. This is why I say get together with other contractors in your state and cover larger areas.
> They do NOT want to babysit individual contractors who will only do work orders in a 30 mile radius or only certain work.
> Listen hard... You absolutely MUST be able to do all the work on a property start to finish, no bull, no ifs and or butts.
> This is what they want. This is how it has always been.
> This is exactly why your second and third and fourth tier contractor companies get these work orders. because they have enough of you hungry subs that they can split it all up and divide it out and you have all the expenses and they make the money. Step back and take a look at the BIG picture. You contractors are running around chasing your own tails and can't see the entire forest because the trees are in the way. Stop!!! Take a look and sign on to make those work orders yourselves. If five contractors over a state can handle all the work in that state, you cut out three to ten lower rung companies.
> Now, why do the M & Ms want direct contractors? Because them they KNOW who to call if there is a problem and they KNOW who will get that job done. Those rush orders are NOT from the bank, they are from a lower rung company who, by the time that order got to them it is almost due!! Not so with direct Bank M & Ms. Usually you get two to three days every order. Now is anyone grasping this big picture????
> Go to each one's website and apply to be their Vendor. Simple enough? Stay away from Lamco and NVMS unless you are looking for auctions and inspections.


I have tried being the go to guy for everything and all it got me was a lot of time wasted bidding work. 

I was an estimator for over six years. All I did all day long was bid work. I know how to price and bid a job competitviely. All these companies you speak of are no different than the General Contractors I worked for. 

As far as banks are concerned... Quality smality, how low can you go? Banks only look at the bottom line, period. I see the "quality" they damand from the vendors doing the repairs in the properties I take care of. It is a joke at best. To get a contractor that can do it all costs money. You get what you pay for. The banks have all the money and they did not get that way by sticking to high standards of quality. They got that way by paying the lowest bottom dollar they can for what they want done. 

Now I mostly cut grass and do maids and I make sure to do the best job I possibly can. So far this has paid off with accolades and lots of work. 

I have tried to contact the other contrators in my area with no success. I have even offered to train the new vendors for my customers. Everyone thinks I am crazy and that I am up to something. It is easy to say we should all work together, but I do not see it ever happening. Eveyone is just too suspicious and paranoid. And based upon the way we get treated by our customers it is not an unhealthy suspicion or paranoia.


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## BPWY

I'm only going to use two examples.


A2Z and Pac Pres.


> They ONLY take 20% discount ... " always".


Beverly like I mentioned before your heart is probably in the right place, pro the contractor, but so many many things have changed since you retired. You might want to start signing up with these clown companies before you give them such blanket praise.

I've worked for many of these companies out there that get mentioned. I know their practices. 

First off A2Z. I've worked for both them and NVMS. For the exact same job NVMS will pay $125 that A2Z only pays $75 for. "They ONLY take 20% discount ... " always"."
Ummmm yeah, not really.


Pac Pres.....

They screwed up once and sent me some paper work that wasn't for my eyes. They bid a job at $1900 and paid me $900. "They ONLY take 20% discount ... " always"." 
Ummmmm yeah, not really the case here either.


I could go on. 

These guys that may have at one point in time been a good or great company to work for have all been bitten by the greed bug. Along with all the other greedy SOBs that have forced the pricing lower and lower that gets paid to the contractor. 
Scum liar companies like Homeland etc.


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## CSREO

I do not understand why someone would want to work for a national? All I ever seem to hear is negative remarks regarding them. All we work for is the real estate agent. I have never had a charge back, never not been paid, never had a bid cut, never had an invoice reduced. I have however had several of our agents tell us that they use us because of other companies inability to complete the work in a workman like manner, timely manner, or not being able to get them to correct something once they have been paid. I like agents. They are easy to get a hold of, have a vested interest in each property you are working on, I have met each one personally, and if I ever needed to, I could drive to their office. Im not giving any of them a discount, or 20% fee. We do nearly everything from the initial eviction, all the way through the close of escrow. All the basic initial items (trahsout, yard, janitorial), all the marketing items (paint, flooring, appliances etc...), and most of the escrow items (roof issues, leins issues, fences etc...)


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## BPWY

You know why not every one can work for agents.

Some banks ONLY use the nats.

Ask your agent how many contractors such as yourself they use. 
The answer is likely to be 1 or 2. 


Believe me I've tried to break into it here. Apparently some one else is doing an acceptable job for a price they like. This has often been repeated across this forum.


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> And it is REO allegiance not REO alliance.


Got me there...I forgot to add "eg." Damn.



Beverly S said:


> pehaps


Looks like you for got a letter.




Beverly S said:


> I am giving FREE information, exactly what are you doing to help all these contractors????


Anytime I post something on this forum about an experience I had (good/bad) is free information for another contractor to use. It's not much but it is, at least, true and relevant to today's industry.



Beverly S said:


> What is your reason for NOT wanting anyone to know information that could help them?


In my opinion, I do not think you are helping. 

I think you are using your "previous connections" to various entities and saying "lets all band together" is similar to smoke and mirror advertisements. 

As BPWY says, I think you are trying to help but your information is too far in the past to be relevant. If you don't believe me, try to sign up with all those companies you listed today and see what the situation is like--then come and preach.

In the mean time, I'm in the field...simultaneously busting and covering my a$$.

My real and honest questions to you:

If you have "retired" and made your money, why are you writing a book that will, in the end, bring in more competition and more unqualified _contractors_ to an already saturated market about an industry that you are no longer active?

And why now? 

Where a have you been the last 5 years when the situation started to go down hill?

Finally, why do you care?


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## CSREO

BPWY said:


> You know why not every one can work for agents.
> 
> Some banks ONLY use the nats.
> 
> Ask your agent how many contractors such as yourself they use.
> The answer is likely to be 1 or 2.
> 
> 
> Believe me I've tried to break into it here. Apparently some one else is doing an acceptable job for a price they like. This has often been repeated across this forum.


Which banks only use nationals? We have done a ton of work for Litton, OCWEN, WF, and BAC. Just completed a job through GMAC, have had a few that the property was managed by cyprexx, and altisource (but we were not working for them). All of the agents are required to get 2-3 bids on jobs over $500. We have one agent that splits it up between us and another company (I dont know if I could handle all of their workload anyways), and the other agents primarily use us (unless its a HD ERA house). We started with one agent in 2006, and have recieved all of the rest of our work through references. However, I must say that as of lately, about 50% of our work has been working with title companies, rehab on rentals, or working with investors on flips.

I dont think price matters to agents, its more the reliability, and ability to contact you at any time. Obviously it needs to be competitive, but it doesnt have to be priced so low that you cannot make a living. Im not familiar with your area, and the mindset of the agents there though, so I guess I cannot comment specifically in that regard. If you are going to get the agents, go after the big hitters. The ones that are "in it to win it". The hacks will send you running bids all day, because they dont know the actual industry. The big hitters will know the ways to actually get you the job, and not have you running bids all over the state for a job that will go to HD.


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## Guest

I have already written a book in 2009 and it was telling all the contractors what was happening and how bad it was going to be. (Of course people never believe it will just get worse). At any rate I had outlined it exactly and what I then predicted is here now. 
I am writing a second book to try to get everyone to understand why it is the way it is. 
All of you may think you KNOW this industry, but unless you have been a broker, a contractor and started out with these banks and managers, you have NO idea what you are really into. 
I talk with these companies and every single day, they ask me to come back to the industry. I would have NO problem getting contracts with the M & M's. I don't want them!!! Not me, I am smart enough to not be on that firing squad.
Clean sweep REO, you are actually way ahead of everyone else on this forum. YOU SIR have the big picture! You are correct working with a Realtor is your best move because those properties have already been to auction, they are being listed and they will be sold, so you get the work and get it done, get paid, the Realtor gets to show and sell and everyone is happy. The banks trust the Realtors and have for years. 

What everyone does not know is that in the beginning it was the Realtors who hired contractors and got the property ready through local labor. Then the foreclosure dam broke and management companies became overwhelmed., soon everyone and their brother was suddenly a P & P contractor. Half of whom did not even know how much pressurized air to blow through pipes when they winterize a property.

If all the contractors would just work for REALTORS or local BANKS, they would fair so much better, but again that greed factor is going to continue to ruin them and the companies.

My book will not in any way bring in new " victims" in fact just like my first book it will most likely discourage new contractors. because I tell it like it is and I name names. 
If anyone knows how bad this industry really has become, it is I. 

Why do you think I sold out and retired when I did?
Like a few others we saw the handwriting on the wall, we saw " know it all contractors" coming into the industry who you could not tell anything because they were going to make a killing in this P & P work. i saw brothers, brother in laws, anyone with a truck and trailer, carting personals out of houses and selling them on craigslist. Yes, that is one of the things that ruined this industry. The morals, the values and the work ethics were devoid of all these "NEW " contractors we saw coming in. 
I made my money, the industry was good to me, in addition I am an expert witness in this industry and you know here is the biggest thing that all of you need to look at.
The banks aren't getting sued, at best they get a slap on the wrist, they have Merrill Lynch behind them! The nationals and sub companies are not getting sued. They make the contractors sign a contracts making the contractor liable. 
The contractors are getting sued, that is who is left holding this bag of crap from this industry. That's right from the guy with a serious business he has busted his ass to build all the way down to the guy with a pair of channel locks and bailing wire and he thinks that makes him a contractor. 
I am only trying to steer people in the right direction to get out of the firing line. There are millions of home owners who have lost their homes, and they are angry, then there are legal eagles who can turn a profit off of that anger, that formula spells out that a whole lot of contractors are going to lose, big. 
If all of you think you know more than some of us who have been through this war, hey, have at it and good luck, because you will certainly need it.
I apologise if I ruffled some feathers and I will not offer any more advice. If everyone does not mind I will just sit back and read the various posts, so i can stay up to date on the no pay companies.


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## Guest

Beverly S,

Post a link to your book. I am curious.

Is this you?
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/beverly-s/7/37/291


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## Guest

No , that lady is in Wisconsin I am in St. Louis. Furthermore I have not and will not work for a bank. 
I would love to post the link to my book but the moderators will not allow it. They even deleted the name of my book. and warned me that it would be advertising so I am not allowed to post it.


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## Guest

I can however give you ahint. it has dirty and secrets in the tittle.


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## Guest

I have to admit, you may be right about these companies. Now I am curious, I want to know why??? Why are they cheating contractors?? Greed is not an excuse nor a good reason, greed is an affliction of a dysfunctional personality. 

Being on this forum is a good thing, I am learning of some very interesting issues. Now my thoughts are turning to the concept, of helping the contractor by exposing and hopefully hurting the companies that cheat contractors. 
We have to remember they too are regulated by HUD and the government. 
I want to find evidence of all that they do so I can use it to either shut them down or slow them down because realistically they will get slaps on the wrist just like banks do. This country unfortunately is built on the real golden rulel and that is " The guy with the gold gets to make the rules".

How can I expose them?? Any ideas?? hmmmm. Let me talk to the attorneys I have been working with maybe we can turn this on them.....


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## REO2Rentals

Beverly S said:


> This country unfortunately is built on the real golden rulel and that is " The guy with the gold gets to make the rules" .


 That so TRUE :thumbup: 

Money TALK BULL [email protected] WALK:laughing:


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## BPWY

Beverly I think its going to be hard to prove that they intentionally bang the contractors.
Its obvious what they are doing but they claim that most of its chargebacks from HUD.
But when you request proof of it they will never give it to you.

The very low pay of the industry is pretty obvious whats going on, how ever once again try to prove it.


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## Guest

We broke away from the Nationals, but it took many years to do so, and also for the P&P company to have a brother in law who is a realtor:whistling


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## GTX63

Beverly S said:


> Why are they cheating contractors?? Greed is not an excuse nor a good reason, greed is an affliction of a dysfunctional personality.


Your looking past the obvious. #1. It is ALL about the money. No company has been awarded a national contract because they bid higher than the competition but impressed the client with their vast infrastucture, knowledge, and reputation. If that were true, prices would be going UP.
#2. Greed is an inherent evil that exists in everyone; some just decide that they won't allow it to dictate their lives. There is no other reason why contractors are robbed by these crooks. Our relationship is dictated by them and based solely on money. I want my business to flourish based on my years of experience, quality of my equipment, my honesty, my integrity, but in this market, and to them, it means nothing. So why would they want to cheat contractors? Well, since they care so little about anything else that we offer, the answer again, is money.


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## CSREO

The low pay is not something that can be used against them, as the contrators are able to reject the work at anything lower than the bid amount (legally). So if you accept the work for pennies, then that is free enterprise. 

The legallity of issues regarding providers named above are only able to be exposed through a subpoena with DOI. If someone thinks that one government agency is going to expose another one to legal issues, is out of their mind. Being that I used to work for one of the largest financial institutions in the world, and have delt with the legallities, I would say that the banks have found ways to protect themselves from having to deal with issues such as individual properties. The only way anyone will be able to prove anything is with a general practice rule, and better be able to prove that it is in writing somewhere. Plain and simple, the world is not a fair place. Protect yourself as best as possible, dont sign contracts that are opening you up to large scale liability, and be happy that we are fortunate enough to have work in this slumped economy.


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## reoguys

When I was an REO agent it is a known fact that the banks have set up as a "source of revenue" entire departments for unpaid claims, some intentionally so, so the REO agents are not reimbursed for whatever reason ... this was admitted on stage at the annual conferences. The same is true in the field services industry. REO agents know to make allowance for unpaid/rejected/never received/outdated claims for reimbursements. There are companies out there that are getting flat out wealthy by not honoring invoices for services rendered and by backcharging the vendor. IT IS INTENTIONAL and always has been!!! It is admitted by the most seasoned REO agents in the sales of REOs so why would it be any different in the servicing of the REOs. As long as we're in this industry we have to PULL TOGETHER as quality contractors and support one another. This forum is great for this and Beverly is telling the truth. Share information and support one another and network with each other.


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## Guest

I am currently working on a blog so we can get the word out to contractors and anyone wanting into this industry. Maybe it will do some good, at best it might cripple a few of these greed mills so they cannot get contractors so easily and they are struck with w/os they can't get filled. You know I survived in this industry, maybe because I never signed THEIR contracts, instead I sent them my own already signed and it was prepared by a lawyer and in accordance with state laws, and that was my reason for sending my own. I told them their contracts violated state laws.
I never had anyone of them question this. Amazing! Of course that was another time in history and before the big bubble busted.
Now , I realize the vendor managers did not know squat so how could they question anything? I also made it my business to know the HUD director of my state personally. A great person to give you advice and quotes from HUD.
At any rate we need to make this info known to all the contractors.


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## Gypsos

I have offered to work with new vendors for my customers to show them what they are doing wrong to prevent call backs and charge backs. 

Every time I make this offer I am treated like I am a special needs child that left my helmet at home.

Again today I went to a newly assigned property and it was a disaster.


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## Guest

We do consulting and teleseminar classes as well, and the clients we are getting are the ones either being sued or about to declare bankruptcy because they owe the companies so many charge backs. This is sad.....


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## BPWY

reoguys said:


> When I was an REO agent it is a known fact that the banks have set up as a "source of revenue" entire departments for unpaid claims, some intentionally so, so the REO agents are not reimbursed for whatever reason ... this was admitted on stage at the annual conferences. The same is true in the field services industry. REO agents know to make allowance for unpaid/rejected/never received/outdated claims for reimbursements. There are companies out there that are getting flat out wealthy by not honoring invoices for services rendered and by backcharging the vendor. IT IS INTENTIONAL and always has been!!! It is admitted by the most seasoned REO agents in the sales of REOs so why would it be any different in the servicing of the REOs. As long as we're in this industry we have to PULL TOGETHER as quality contractors and support one another. This forum is great for this and Beverly is telling the truth. Share information and support one another and network with each other.







I had came to that conclusion on my own. Conversations with Fremont only confirmed my suspicions.


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## JFMURFY

Beverly S said:


> I have to admit, you may be right about these companies. Now I am curious, I want to know why??? Why are they cheating contractors?? Greed is not an excuse nor a good reason, greed is an affliction of a dysfunctional personality.
> 
> Being on this forum is a good thing, I am learning of some very interesting issues. Now my thoughts are turning to the concept, of helping the contractor by exposing and hopefully hurting the companies that cheat contractors.
> We have to remember they too are regulated by HUD and the government.
> I want to find evidence of all that they do so I can use it to either shut them down or slow them down because realistically they will get slaps on the wrist just like banks do. This country unfortunately is built on the real golden rulel and that is " The guy with the gold gets to make the rules".
> 
> How can I expose them?? Any ideas?? hmmmm. Let me talk to the attorneys I have been working with maybe we can turn this on them.....


Question Beverly? If much of this abuse is controlled by the Governement, why then can not contacting your Representatives and explain to them that you want something done about this "anti-trust" activities of the Lenders, Servicers etc?


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## thanohano44

JFMURFY said:


> Question Beverly? If much of this abuse is controlled by the Governement, why then can not contacting your Representatives and explain to them that you want something done about this "anti-trust" activities of the Lenders, Servicers etc?


"the government is not the solution to your problems, the government is the problem". -The Gipper


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## Guest

All that's needed is for them to realize it will benefit them more in the long to actually build good relationships with their contractors. Lots of them claim to have this on their websites but it truly doesn't exist.


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## GTX63

SWOH REO said:


> All that's needed is for them to realize it will benefit them more in the long to actually build good relationships with their contractors. Lots of them claim to have this on their websites but it truly doesn't exist.


Benefit them more than what? You know the old saying about a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush? There is no realizing. They know exactly what they are doing. They are seizing the moment until the window on this foreclosure gold rush is closed.


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## thanohano44

SWOH REO said:


> All that's needed is for them to realize it will benefit them more in the long to actually build good relationships with their contractors. Lots of them claim to have this on their websites but it truly doesn't exist.


To truly sift through all of the BS, one has had to have worked for one of these institutions to understand the nonsense. I have worked for the lender for over 10 years in LM. 

They are not set up to listen to all complaints. There's a legal team that sifts through the complaints and they set aside those complaints which can be handled with a quick phone call, a letter, and real legal issues. 

As contractors, we don't have a union or HR dept to hear our concerns and feelings. We have our contract to refer to. Most contractor contracts are set up to remove the responsibility from the bank, servicing firm etc. the national takes on this responsibility, then it's passed down to the contractor or regional. Then it's laid out on the contractor. Thus the reason to add them on as a policy holder. 

The only way to really fix any of this is to email the CEO of the lending institution. He or she will have one of their assistants reply for him and forward your complaint to their legal team and compliance units. Then the snowball will fall down hill and you will have to roll it back up many times until you have resolution. 

Even then, nothing is guaranteed unless you have followed your contract to the tee.


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## Guest

That is exactly correct, everything is so shrewdly passed down to the contractor and the blame is soley the contractor's. 
As for pricing, HUD allowables only allowed $300.00 for an initial sales clean back in 2004 how could they possibly get a grand?? 
No, I don't believe that. If they get a grand for each sales clean then it serves their greed to pay the contractor 150-$200.00 for a sales clean minus their 20% and just keep their mouths shut. They would be cleaning up, but I know that is not so, everyone would be clamouring for sales cleans and they would be done by Realtors and Inspectors. 

I can see that The contractors are getting a raw deal but let's not blow it totally out of proportion. Seriously, if sales cleans paid a grand, would YOU do anything else????

And contractors do not have a union because they did NOT want one!!! We tried in 2010 to get the contractors organized and we had a handful at best out of 50 states. Heck we even had the Teamsters interested in helping them form a union and getting it organized. The contractors did not want that. Most of the contractors were so worried someone else was going to get more work than they did. Well their worries have come to pass, a whole lot of someone elses are getting more work now. As long as contractors refuse to unite and stick together to form their own work force protection they will continue to get screwed over.
Worrying about you and yours sometimes requires unity. Until that becomes acknowledged it will just continue to get worse. Here's a thought for you. Don't you think all the nationals and banks have their little groups that stick together?? If you don't see that then you are blind. It is NO coincidence that the prices get lowered all at the same time for the same type work orders. Think about that.


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## thanohano44

Beverly S said:


> That is exactly correct, everything is so shrewdly passed down to the contractor and the blame is soley the contractor's.
> As for pricing, HUD allowables only allowed $300.00 for an initial sales clean back in 2004 how could they possibly get a grand??
> No, I don't believe that. If they get a grand for each sales clean then it serves their greed to pay the contractor 150-$200.00 for a sales clean minus their 20% and just keep their mouths shut. They would be cleaning up, but I know that is not so, everyone would be clamouring for sales cleans and they would be done by Realtors and Inspectors.
> 
> I can see that The contractors are getting a raw deal but let's not blow it totally out of proportion. Seriously, if sales cleans paid a grand, would YOU do anything else????


Beverly,

HUD allows less than what it set aside for the loan servicers. That amount, ($1000) is what's allocated for the total amount used to service a property per Annum for maintenance. If for some reason, the property needs up to $1000 to get a thorough cleaning, they can pull the $1000 for that and request more.


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## Guest

That is correct, Hud allows total pricing per property some states it is 1200. Yes, they can use it all where needed and request additional funds be allocated for that property, however they usually try to cut corners some way to make that allowable work.


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## Gypsos

I have no problem with joining an association or some such for contractors similar to the ones that exist for the construction industry. Such would be good for us to be able to network and discuss concerns and establish relationships that benefit us all.

I would not support the forming of a union. I have worked with the local carpenters union and had a very good relationaship with them and would work with them again given the opportunity. 

But that is only because they have a very flexible and accomodating contract that recognizes that my company is mine to run and set policy for. 

They do not mandate policy and they recognize that I need to be able to terminate employees that do not produce. 

Wages are negotiated on a per job basis with the union recognizing that while they may want an employee to earn $22 per hour it is a delusional goal in the current economy and they work with you to help you set wages that are competitive and still provide benefits for the employees. 

I cannot concieve of the teamsters and the other old school unions having the flexibility neccessary to do anything but run us all out of business with strikes while demanding we give more to employees when we are unable to get more from our customers.


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## Guest

I should clarify that post. The teamsters were willing to talk to a group of contractors to give them pointers of how they could actually form a union that would work for their industry. They did not offer tobring this industry into the teamsters. They merely were willing to explain the pros and cons of a union , basically because this is an all private contractor industry.
As I was told, they most likely would not be able to form a union but they could form a contractor alliance and devise and design their own contracts to negotiate with M&Ms and even the banks, themselves.
With the unity they would have the power of discounts from insurance companies as well as the power to negotiate on behalf of all the members.

At any rate, Contractors are just NOT in that sort of mindset, they are too worried about their very own business individually to move into a larger situation that might have bigger and better benefits.

Not to demean or put down contractors but, those kind of organizations take leaders that can visualize the bigger pictures, and it just isn't happening in this industry. Most likely because this industry is too new and the contractors are just not feeling secure in this field.


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## JFMURFY

Beverly S said:


> I should clarify that post. The teamsters were willing to talk to a group of contractors to give them pointers of how they could actually form a union that would work for their industry. They did not offer tobring this industry into the teamsters. They merely were willing to explain the pros and cons of a union , basically because this is an all private contractor industry.
> As I was told, they most likely would not be able to form a union but they could form a contractor alliance and devise and design their own contracts to negotiate with M&Ms and even the banks, themselves.
> With the unity they would have the power of discounts from insurance companies as well as the power to negotiate on behalf of all the members.
> 
> At any rate, Contractors are just NOT in that sort of mindset, they are too worried about their very own business individually to move into a larger situation that might have bigger and better benefits.
> 
> Not to demean or put down contractors but, those kind of organizations take leaders that can visualize the bigger pictures, and it just isn't happening in this industry. Most likely because this industry is too new and the contractors are just not feeling secure in this field.


Been following this thread with interest... This industry has too many grey areas, the set of standards established are open to too many interpretations by all involved...all with their hands out to take more than they derserve. I think a union would just add to the cost of business. As I have said in the past... a coalition or trade association where its members are "Contractors", not bankers, M&M's, Nationals, or Servicers, etc.
It starts by organizing at the local or regional level, its not an easy thing to accomplish as we're all a skeptical bunch anyway.


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## BPWY

JFMURFY said:


> It starts by organizing at the local or regional level, its not an easy thing to accomplish as we're all a skeptical bunch anyway.









With good reason. At this point in the game any body whose been in the industry for more than 6 months stands a very good chance of having been effed over in a big way. 

After it happens once a guy starts to get very suspicious.


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## JFMURFY

BPWY said:


> With good reason. At this point in the game any body whose been in the industry for more than 6 months stands a very good chance of having been effed over in a big way.
> 
> After it happens once a guy starts to get very suspicious.


It's the greater good for us all, the experienced who have a lot more to offer than just shoveling S--t. As mentioned on another thread... why do sit around an bitch... just to vent? Or can relationships be forged to establish an understanding among contractors to teach them how to say..."No". Perfroming tasks below my costs are not in my firms best interest.
Funny thing...when I was at Ground Zero on 9/11 it was our original intention, as volunteers using our heavy equipment to aid in the recovery, and not 8 hours into the disaster Local Operating Engineers where claiming oeprating rights on the demo excavators, cranes etc.


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## Guest

You are 100% correct about all your statements! There are way too many people turning and twisting the HUD requirements to suit their own needs, both nationals and contractors! 
The companies want more than 20% they want it all!!
Some of the contractors who get a decent contract, think they are worth $200.00 per hour! I was talking to a gentleman just three days ago and he was complaining that the winterization was only paying $75.00 now. He stated it takes him two hours to do one. I just sort of chuckled and I asked him if he had a college degree or a Doctorate. He said no he just finished high school, that's all. So then I said, " Gee, the antifreeze is what about ten bucks? The gas is what , about another ten bucks? Now insurance for a business and bixz expenses should take another $15.00 which is 20% and that is figuring it high. So that leaves $40.00 for two hours of your labor right? he agreed. Then I asked him when was the last time you made $20.00 an hour for labor???? 
To me that is a pretty decent wage. I have a master's degree and I don't make that kind of money in this economy. See , part of the problem is everyone thinks there is all this BIG money and they should be making it. 
I have to say, in this economy with jobs failing and homes being lost, just being able to make $20.00 per hour is a hell of a deal and one we should probably be grateful we can get. I am not trying to say the contractors should be happy they make $20.00 per hour and the nationals get $100.00. That is NOT my point here. My point is everyone needs to remember the DEPRESSION. We are there again. We need to buckle down and think about the things that are important instead of whining about not getting as rich as the nationals. This is the way it is. You are the bottom rung of the food chain! Either deal with it or don't do it! Go make more money doing something else! 
It slays me that people will whine and moan about the work they are doing yet they KEEP ON KEEPING ON!! A very wise man once told me, "if you are not part of the solution you are definately part of the problem"
Think about that. Don't you think it's time the contractors took measures to deal with all the problems???


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## BPWY

Beverly you are right that $20 an hr isn't a bad wage, but you have to consider that with inflation $20 probably only buys $10 worth of stuff.

And you forgot one other VERY important item...... office time to upload that wint w/o.
Probably another hour and I think your $15 of insurance and misc biz expense is very very low.
Equipment wear and tear, pickup wear and tear and replacement cost is well over $15 for that job.


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## JFMURFY

_A very wise man once told me, "if you are not part of the solution you are definately part of the problem"
Think about that. Don't you think it's time the contractors took measures to deal with all the problems??? _

So Beverly...it would seem to me that this industry is no different than the Coal Miners of West Virginia an Western Pa. a century or so ago. Different work but the same concept. The banks need the work done, the middleman with the contacts has to get his cut, and then the worker bee's. Only problem here is that more an more people want to sit behind a desk an be a middleman too.
I turn cheap work away as it's not in my firms best interest to take the reoccuring services, and as you describe the fella wanting more than $75 for a dry wintz... What are the intangibles that you can't account for. 2 weeks later having to return to the property (at his own expense) an clean the crap out of a commode as he was the last known contractor to be there..not matter everybody an there brother has keys to the place.
Bad economy or not your work has a value and a profitabilty threshold that you shouldn't cross. More Contractors need to learn to get involved an if takes stirring the pot then you do it.


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## GTX63

If it is Lupe and his one man band, yes.

Travel time- fill in the blank.

10 minutes to download, label and file the pics.

About 20 minutes of payroll for my updater to submit the work.

Not complaining, I choose to run a business, but figuring $20 per hour is comparing apples to eggplant. Hourly wages don't apply to the folks like me. There are not enough hours in the day.


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## Guest

$75 and your company might break even if its close. Drive an hr for that $75 and no way is anyone making $20 /hr . $8 in antifreeze , 2 hrs driving, 1 hr working, overhead $15 ( you said not me),$25 gas , upload time 20min.=no to little profit.


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## Guest

Beverly , did your company make $20/hr doing painting and remodeling?


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## Guest

Wow!! If it costs more than $7.50 an hour to do business it is time to look at a cheaper business. If you work 60 hours a week ( as most businesses do) then it is costing more than $450.00 per week? or 1800.00 per month or $23,400. a year just to do business??? I think even the IRS would question those figures, unless you are turning several hundred thousand to a million.
now as per the inflation, you are right! I know $20.00 does NOT buy $10.00 worth of anything today. That is not something anyone can do anything about. But in all honesty I think all of us have been spoiled just a little bit. We are used to making big wages in better times and now it hurts to have to cut back and tighten our belts. Of course it does, that is like peddling backwards. Once you reach the mother lode of income for working class it is shattering a life to go backwards! Why do you think brokers jumped out of windows during the depression??? 

Every and any business has expenses. Let's look at reality, o.k? The nationals have to pay every single Vendor Manager, plus insurance plus building expenses etc etc. 
They do not get to keep that 500 dollars they make off of each work order. They are lucky to profit the original 20%. It is the price of doing business! For them to make a huge profit they would have to NOT pay any contractor any money at all for about six months just like maxim and mc Caffrey, did then they get rich.
They cut back contractors so they can meet their own expenses! You cut back hiring subs to do the same. 
It is how business works! The only ones that really profit are the banks, period, and unless contractors know something no one else knows, they will continue to profit because this government upholds that.
It all comes down to those that have and those that don't have. it sucks, but unless everyone bands together and demands the fees that they absolutely need ( not want) it will never change and will just keep getting worse. If you don't do a work order for peanuts you don't go in a hole.
You can stay home and make nothing just as easily as doing a job and making nothing. 
That is why there needs to be a Contractor alliance to sit and figure out the REAL cost of doing business and what the contractors must absolutely MUST have to make a decent, livable wage ( not get rich) and present that to the companies.
The contractors need to all be on the same page. But..... They won't, know why???
Some contractors will cut each others throat just so they can get the work! That's right, and they will most likely lose their butt and not make a dime, but the mentality is " I got the work and he doesn't" Even if it bankrupts him. Until that mentality changes there is the chances of a snowball in hell of anything else changing.


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## Guest

My company made 10.00 per hour profit on every man hour we expended. We charges the right fees and we built our own work orders, which is something no contractors do today. 
We kept a minimum of twelve crews in the field daily and a minimum of six weekend emergency crews. We made sure they called us and we delivered within the hour. 
We gave service, we gave two thousand photos per property. We knew how to take photos of debris so it was all added correctly. We never mowed a lawn without measuring the grass, the weeds etc first. We broke in our new inspectors by making them ride with the crews and take photos. We made this a science and the banks loved it. We gave service!!! That was how we made all our money, but... we teethed on this industry, we grew with this industry, I started doing BPOs back in the 80's. I was one of the first people to do a pre conveyance inspection, We helped set the standards for this industry. We thought like the banks and were literally their eyes, ears, nose and hands. 
We made money!! We were not in business to lose money! We worked hard and I drove all day every day seven days a week doing inspections, checking on contractors, doing initial lock changes myself. 

Heck I remember the very first time a bank asked me to change a lock.
they sent me to do a BPO and it was a bankruptcy where they had walked away. It was 1988 and I had no idea of how to change a knob lock. I got them on the phone at a nearby phone booth and they told me to whack it with a hammer and knock it off! After that I carried locks and a very hefty hammer in my trunk in case I had to change another lock. Back then we used 35 mm cameras and had the film developed overnight then we would overnight it to them. That is why they paid $1.00 per photo. I always gave them twice as many photos as they asked for or I even charged for. Yes, I gave them lots of free photos, but they gave me lots of work. It was give and take.

This industry did not start out the way it is today, it grew and like anything that grows too fast it has growing pains. 
We loved this industry and it was really good to us, so we tried to be good to it. The contractors today did not see this industry in it's infancy, they did not see the comradery between all the inspectors, Realtors and contractors. They did not know the people personally who sent those orders. They did not see colleages they worked with leave and go work for M & M s. Contractors today are here because they jumped into an industry so they could make a buck to pay their own bills. This is NOT their chosen vocation by any means. A whole different set of circumstances exist today, and the nationals are treating the contractors like they are just there to make a buck. When this industry dies down how many of you will still be there? How many will stick with it? Probably less than 10%. My point is, everyone involved in this industry today is there for one reason and one reason only! MONEY! When that smoke clears they will all be gone. The only ones remaining will be the Realors and Inspectors and contractors who honestly love what they do.

The whole point of this rant is this:: If you are wanting to demand better fees then be prepared to offer better services. You have to be worth what you charge. NO one will pay top dollar for mediocre service, you won't do that yourselves. So if you are wanting bigger fees then deliver bigger service. Then band together and you will have set some standards for those bigger fees.


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## Guest

I apologize, as that remark was uncalled for. Deleted for ethical reasons.


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> My company made 10.00 per hour profit on every man hour we expended. We charges the right fees and we built our own work orders, which is something no contractors do today.
> We kept a minimum of twelve crews in the field daily and a minimum of six weekend emergency crews. We made sure they called us and we delivered within the hour.
> We gave service, we gave two thousand photos per property. We knew how to take photos of debris so it was all added correctly. We never mowed a lawn without measuring the grass, the weeds etc first. We broke in our new inspectors by making them ride with the crews and take photos. We made this a science and the banks loved it. We gave service!!! That was how we made all our money, but... we teethed on this industry, we grew with this industry, I started doing BPOs back in the 80's. I was one of the first people to do a pre conveyance inspection, We helped set the standards for this industry. We thought like the banks and were literally their eyes, ears, nose and hands.
> We made money!! We were not in business to lose money! We worked hard and I drove all day every day seven days a week doing inspections, checking on contractors, doing initial lock changes myself.
> 
> Heck I remember the very first time a bank asked me to change a lock.
> they sent me to do a BPO and it was a bankruptcy where they had walked away. It was 1988 and I had no idea of how to change a knob lock. I got them on the phone at a nearby phone booth and they told me to whack it with a hammer and knock it off! After that I carried locks and a very hefty hammer in my trunk in case I had to change another lock. Back then we used 35 mm cameras and had the film developed overnight then we would overnight it to them. That is why they paid $1.00 per photo. I always gave them twice as many photos as they asked for or I even charged for. Yes, I gave them lots of free photos, but they gave me lots of work. It was give and take.
> 
> This industry did not start out the way it is today, it grew and like anything that grows too fast it has growing pains.
> We loved this industry and it was really good to us, so we tried to be good to it. The contractors today did not see this industry in it's infancy, they did not see the comradery between all the inspectors, Realtors and contractors. They did not know the people personally who sent those orders. They did not see colleages they worked with leave and go work for M & M s. Contractors today are here because they jumped into an industry so they could make a buck to pay their own bills. This is NOT their chosen vocation by any means. A whole different set of circumstances exist today, and the nationals are treating the contractors like they are just there to make a buck. When this industry dies down how many of you will still be there? How many will stick with it? Probably less than 10%. My point is, everyone involved in this industry today is there for one reason and one reason only! MONEY! When that smoke clears they will all be gone. The only ones remaining will be the Realors and Inspectors and contractors who honestly love what they do.
> 
> The whole point of this rant is this:: If you are wanting to demand better fees then be prepared to offer better services. You have to be worth what you charge. NO one will pay top dollar for mediocre service, you won't do that yourselves. So if you are wanting bigger fees then deliver bigger service. Then band together and you will have set some standards for those bigger fees.


Are you insinuating that contractors on this forum aren't being paid fair prices because they aren't providing quality service?

Are you honestly suggesting that realtors, inspectors, and contractors who "love" their job would stay in the P&P/REO business if there was no money in it? Don't you think that essentially everyone involved in every industry is in it for the money? 

I assume your masters degree is related to business, so I would also assume you came across the supplier dependence theory at some point. You don't think that the problem with the industry is the nationals exploiting the contractors because they have the power to decide who does and doesn't receive work? 

No contractor is entitled to any work, but if you are a contractor in the P&P industry then you have built your expectations, and therefore business strategy, around past performance. If you receive, for example, $100k of work from SG and they suddenly say "We're decreasing debris prices by $2 a cy, take it or leave it," what do you do? You can't immediately walk away and fill that $100k revenue gap. 

The nationals have gradually lowered prices and raised expectations because they know the situation that too many contractors are in. They receive contracts by underbidding the competition and passing the cuts on to the contractors in order to retain the same ROI. Is it illegal? No. Is it unethical? Of course.


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## Guest

Actually I am NOT insinuating anything!! 
I am merely stating how my own company managed to grow with the industry to be one of the top "Preferred Contractors". 
I am pointing out that ANY business whether it be a national , a bank or a contracting company gets to the top by very hard work and giving much more than is expected. That has always been the way business competes in this country.
I am NOT saying any contractor does or does not do his job. Although you yourselves have stated contractors do not do the job right and you have to go behind them and remedy problems for lesser rates. Which is it? Contractors always do the job correctly or indeed some of them don't?

If it suits a company to blame the business they contract with for EVERTHING then that is the way they will be. But I do know this to be fact, the big companies do not sit around and dream of ways to screw the contractors. They function daily and in the course of doing business it does appear to be intentional, but I just want to know which one of you have actually been told for a fact that these companies are all doing this on purpose??? How do you know this?? Where is the proof?? All you have is the fact that prices are cut. Have any of you asked a HUD director what is going on? Has anyone spoken with the president of any of these companies?? Or are you just going to blame the other guy rather than try to find out what is going on?? 
I honestly believe that many REALTORS, INSPECTORS and CONTRACTORS do really love their jobs, yes. 
Not everyone is motivated soley by money. If you do what you love, the money will follow. Having Passion for what you are doing will bring rewards in addition to money. 
These are all cliches I am sure you have heard. 
If it angers you that there are people who enjoy this industry I am sorry. But, I do know if there was a problem I went to the source and asked questions and tried to understand what was going on.
Just sitting back saying the whole industry is out to screw the poor contractor is not going to get you better prices or paid on time, or better work orders or bid approvals. That you CAN take to the bank. 
Those things will never change until the contractors decide to change them!! It is that simple! You can not be taken advantage of by anyone with out your permission! If you allow it, then you have it! 

All I am insinuating is this! Get off your butts, stop complaining and DO something about the situations. having Pity Parties is not going to pay your bills believe it or not.
And by better services I am not referring to better jobs, I am referring to having better standards. Do NOT go and remedy a job botched by another contractor for lesser fees. Have some integrity!! Stick to your guns!

Good Lord, I once told the Owner of first Preston if he wanted a particular job reinspected by that friday, he needed to get his butt in his car and head for Missouri and he might possibly get it done by the due date, because there were NO inspectors here that did rush jobs for free!! He met my fees and gave us mileage as well. If you have it so badly, then do something about it! Stop letting them take advantage so you can complain about it some more. If all of you would grow some backbone, you just MIGHT may a decent living! At this point what in hell do you have to lose????


----------



## Guest

Here is a link to find REO Brokers to do work for:

http://reoindustrydirectory.com/profile-search

Just type in your zip code and it will bring up the registered REO brokers in your area.


----------



## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> Wow!! If it costs more than $7.50 an hour to do business it is time to look at a cheaper business. If you work 60 hours a week ( as most businesses do) then it is costing more than $450.00 per week? or 1800.00 per month or $23,400. a year just to do business??? I think even the IRS would question those figures, unless you are turning several hundred thousand to a million.






The short answer is absolutely yes beyond a shadow of a doubt.


I spend half that nearly every week of the year JUST IN FUEL.

Materials for a job can easily pass that for a single job.
We've barely gotten started and have already blew past $450.



Inflation along with entirely different businesses make a huge difference.


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## Guest

I would be happy only spending $450 a week to work. That number seems low to me. We average $100 a day in gas alone.


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## thanohano44

SWOH REO said:


> I would be happy only spending $450 a week to work. That number seems low to me. We average $100 a day in gas alone.


That's our average per truck per day as well.


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## Guest

O.K. I need to be more clear about that statement.
Fuel is not the cost of doing business, fuel is the expense to deduct from that particular job.Remember I said ten dollars for gas??? That is for each job performed. The cost of doing business is your insurance, taxes, legal fees, accountant fees, etc. Expenses are always separate and can vary.. When I said cost of doing business i was referring to the fixed amounts usually per year or quarter in some cases. If you are doing ten jobs per day and you have ten dollars per job, then yes you would use $100.00 per day in gas. See that would fluctuate in accordance with how many work orders you did each day, it would not stay the same.
Does that dissipate the confusion a little?


----------



## JFMURFY

Beverly S said:


> O.K. I need to be more clear about that statement.
> Fuel is not the cost of doing business, fuel is the expense to deduct from that particular job.Remember I said ten dollars for gas??? That is for each job performed. The cost of doing business is your insurance, taxes, legal fees, accountant fees, etc. Expenses are always separate and can vary.. When I said cost of doing business i was referring to the fixed amounts usually per year or quarter in some cases. If you are doing ten jobs per day and you have ten dollars per job, then yes you would use $100.00 per day in gas. See that would fluctuate in accordance with how many work orders you did each day, it would not stay the same.
> Does that dissipate the confusion a little?


TO over the top.... Money comes in...money goes out...and uncle sam get the rest... very simple.


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## Guest

O.K. I need to be more clear about that statement.
Fuel is not the cost of doing business, fuel is the expense to deduct from that particular job.Remember I said ten dollars for gas??? That is for each job performed. The cost of doing business is your insurance, taxes, legal fees, accountant fees, etc. Expenses are always separate and can vary.. When I said cost of doing business i was referring to the fixed amounts usually per year or quarter in some cases. If you are doing ten jobs per day and you have ten dollars per job, then yes you would use $100.00 per day in gas. See that would fluctuate in accordance with how many work orders you did each day, it would not stay the same.
Does that dissipate the confusion a little?
If you did not do a single work order one day, you would have NO gas expense. However your cost of doing business would still remain because you would still have insurance, legal fees accountant or bookkeping etc. 
does that clarify things?


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## Guest

Very simple... Gas is a fluctuating expense. Cost of doing business is always, a fixed expense.
I I asked you what the cost of your business license would be for next year you would be able to tell me. But if I asked what the cost of your gas expenses would be for next year you could not give me an accurate answer because you would have no way of knowing that.


----------



## Guest

Beverly S said:


> Actually I am NOT insinuating anything!!
> I am merely stating how my own company managed to grow with the industry to be one of the top "Preferred Contractors".
> I am pointing out that ANY business whether it be a national , a bank or a contracting company gets to the top by very hard work and giving much more than is expected. That has always been the way business competes in this country.
> I am NOT saying any contractor does or does not do his job. Although you yourselves have stated contractors do not do the job right and you have to go behind them and remedy problems for lesser rates. Which is it? Contractors always do the job correctly or indeed some of them don't?
> 
> If it suits a company to blame the business they contract with for EVERTHING then that is the way they will be. But I do know this to be fact, the big companies do not sit around and dream of ways to screw the contractors. They function daily and in the course of doing business it does appear to be intentional, but I just want to know which one of you have actually been told for a fact that these companies are all doing this on purpose??? How do you know this?? Where is the proof?? All you have is the fact that prices are cut. Have any of you asked a HUD director what is going on? Has anyone spoken with the president of any of these companies?? Or are you just going to blame the other guy rather than try to find out what is going on??
> I honestly believe that many REALTORS, INSPECTORS and CONTRACTORS do really love their jobs, yes.
> Not everyone is motivated soley by money. If you do what you love, the money will follow. Having Passion for what you are doing will bring rewards in addition to money.
> These are all cliches I am sure you have heard.
> If it angers you that there are people who enjoy this industry I am sorry. But, I do know if there was a problem I went to the source and asked questions and tried to understand what was going on.
> Just sitting back saying the whole industry is out to screw the poor contractor is not going to get you better prices or paid on time, or better work orders or bid approvals. That you CAN take to the bank.
> Those things will never change until the contractors decide to change them!! It is that simple! You can not be taken advantage of by anyone with out your permission! If you allow it, then you have it!
> 
> All I am insinuating is this! Get off your butts, stop complaining and DO something about the situations. having Pity Parties is not going to pay your bills believe it or not.
> And by better services I am not referring to better jobs, I am referring to having better standards. Do NOT go and remedy a job botched by another contractor for lesser fees. Have some integrity!! Stick to your guns!
> 
> Good Lord, I once told the Owner of first Preston if he wanted a particular job reinspected by that friday, he needed to get his butt in his car and head for Missouri and he might possibly get it done by the due date, because there were NO inspectors here that did rush jobs for free!! He met my fees and gave us mileage as well. If you have it so badly, then do something about it! Stop letting them take advantage so you can complain about it some more. If all of you would grow some backbone, you just MIGHT may a decent living! At this point what in hell do you have to lose????


I definitely agree with you that contractors need to unify and do something about the situation. 

I don't believe the nationals are always malicious when "screwing" a contractor. I haven't seen the numbers of any company, but anyone with a business degree should be able to see what happens:

-SG had all of FNMA
-FNMA sees disadvantage of this and splits up coverage
-Nationals now have competition
-How do you land a contract with the government in a time of recession and housing collapse? Bid as low as possible.


I'd go into more detail and develop my post more but I think you get my drift. And again, I agree with a lot of what you are saying; this is "constructive criticism" if you will :whistling


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## Guest

Paradox, you are so correct. The government was afraid of price fixing and monopolies so they split up the contracts and forced V a, Fha, Freddie and Fannie to do the same. Banks cannot play favorites anymore either, why do you suppose the BAC was developed?and Five Brothers?? They were trying to show they were separate from the servicers. That's why? All the asset Management companies now have to compete with even the little guys for those contracts and the low bid gets the ball in their court. You are being paid sub standard, because they bid sub standard.
the really screwed up part of that is they are violating their mortgagee letters by doing this and NO ONE has called them or HUD on it yet!!! 
Now if there was a group of contractor representation who was willing to blow that whistle, then that would force those prices back to the fees designated in the most recent Mortgagee letter!! Hello!!!
boy it is tough getting the info to contractors!!! LOL 
a contractor Representative Body would have clout and they could then notify their state reps of intent of Federal suit for fraud.
But!! IT TAKES SOME CONTRACTORS STICKING TOGETHER AND MOVING FORWARD AS REPS OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!! 
Is anyone catching on yet?????


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## Guest

What is going on is actually Fraudulent activity and the HUD Office could even be in trouble for this activity. They are sanctioning this stuff.


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## JFMURFY

Beverly S said:


> Paradox, you are so correct. The government was afraid of price fixing and monopolies so they split up the contracts and forced V a, Fha, Freddie and Fannie to do the same. Banks cannot play favorites anymore either, why do you suppose the BAC was developed?and Five Brothers?? They were trying to show they were separate from the servicers. That's why? All the asset Management companies now have to compete with even the little guys for those contracts and the low bid gets the ball in their court. You are being paid sub standard, because they bid sub standard.
> the really screwed up part of that is they are violating their mortgagee letters by doing this and NO ONE has called them or HUD on it yet!!!
> Now if there was a group of contractor representation who was willing to blow that whistle, then that would force those prices back to the fees designated in the most recent Mortgagee letter!! Hello!!!
> boy it is tough getting the info to contractors!!! LOL
> a contractor Representative Body would have clout and they could then notify their state reps of intent of Federal suit for fraud.
> But!! IT TAKES SOME CONTRACTORS STICKING TOGETHER AND MOVING FORWARD AS REPS OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!!
> Is anyone catching on yet?????


My attention was caught over a ear ago when they came out with ML-18


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## Guest

he increase of allowables to a maximum of $ 2,500 per property sort of floored you huh?? 

There really are companies getting those fees you know?


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## Guest

The B.S. is so thick on this thread that I'm afraid to take a step I might drown. 

"But I do know this to be fact, the big companies do not sit around and dream of ways to screw the contractors"

LOL if you only knew the truth 

Lots of mis-information being provided by several posters. Maybe intention or maybe not. Guys/Gals remember this is a forum and some people are really not who they pretend to be or believe the information that they received is correct when in truth was wrong. 

Otherwise its all good for a chuckle and a sad shake of the head.


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## Guest

O.K. i don't know the truth. Wanna share your proof of that statement?
Would you be willing to post a copy of any documentation you have of proof ??? We would all like to see it. After all if you have this proof don't you think you should at least let others see it???

Let me guess... you don't know what ML18 even is??? You don't know what you are even suppose to get paid do you? Uh Huh that is what I thought. You are right, some of the statements on here do deserve a sad shake of the head.. ....


----------



## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> O.K. i don't know the truth. Wanna share your proof of that statement?
> Would you be willing to post a copy of any documentation you have of proof ??? We would all like to see it. After all if you have this proof don't you think you should at least let others see it???
> 
> Let me guess... you don't know what ML18 even is??? You don't know what you are even suppose to get paid do you? Uh Huh that is what I thought. You are right, some of the statements on here do deserve a sad shake of the head.. ....





:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## Guest

Beverly,

There are some things that not even I would share on any forum. :whistling

I like you have been in the business for many years...from the polaroid days. The only difference is I started as the owner of a company that wrote forced placed insurance in the 80's and 90's and evolved into more. Been in many many Directors meetings over the years and what you hear behind closed doors would shock even an author:thumbup:

I guess maybe enough for now since it might end up as book fodder :laughing:


----------



## Guest

We never used polaroids and I don't know any who did. The photos would fade that is why they required 35 mm and developing.
i have been in many meetings with companies as well at a time that this was just as new to them as to us. I do not doubt insurance directors are out to skin contractors just as i don't doubt there are contractors who do not take this business seriously.
However i also know there are hard working Americans out there who are trying to run legitimate businesses and cannot get ahead simply because some get lucky and get in with the good nationals and will never share that info with others. Why??? Why can't contractors get a break and confront some of this outright Fraud going on? 
you may not want to give info because you give me the impression that you think you are above all the other contractors. 
Here is a Flash, if you are doing so well , what are you doing on this forum?? If you know everything that the companies are doing why are you staying in this industry? I am confused?? I came back so I could find the problems in the industry today to write my new book. While doing so I discovered there are people here in REAL trouble! I sincerely want to help in any way I can.


----------



## thanohano44

Beverly S said:


> We never used polaroids and I don't know any who did. The photos would fade that is why they required 35 mm and developing.
> i have been in many meetings with companies as well at a time that this was just as new to them as to us. I do not doubt insurance directors are out to skin contractors just as i don't doubt there are contractors who do not take this business seriously.
> However i also know there are hard working Americans out there who are trying to run legitimate businesses and cannot get ahead simply because some get lucky and get in with the good nationals and will never share that info with others. Why??? Why can't contractors get a break and confront some of this outright Fraud going on?
> you may not want to give info because you give me the impression that you think you are above all the other contractors.
> Here is a Flash, if you are doing so well , what are you doing on this forum?? If you know everything that the companies are doing why are you staying in this industry? I am confused?? I came back so I could find the problems in the industry today to write my new book. While doing so I discovered there are people here in REAL trouble! I sincerely want to help in any way I can.


Omg, first Whitney Houston and now this industry.


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## Guest

LOL. Your impression is of no concern to me. What I have accomplished and done over the last 3 decades is really of no importance. What is important is supplying correct information to contractors instead of a research project for "your book". No offense is intended but that is how I see it...

"I'm better than other contractors". 
I guess I wouldn't be digging in the shi* if this was correct...what a joke. My employees and subs will attest that I get in there just about as much as they do. Better than being a desk jockey. Now I do have to admit that I do NOT do as much P&P as I used to...mainly because I'm on the sidelines to watch the pendulum swing back to the contractors favor even though I seriously doubt that will happen in this business lifetime. 

Why I am on the forum? Good question. I volunteer at many places and offer guidance to many (many on this forum can vouch) and some on here are like family...OK distant relatives at best.... Some on here I have had the pleasure of sitting and breaking bread with (albeit some I might look at differently after the picture posted on this forum. Some on here I have business relationships with. Some on here I speak with more than my wife some nights...Yes you know who you are. 
Some of the best people are found on this forum!

Otherwise I am happy to throw my opinion out when I see b.s.


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## Guest

> Here is a Flash, if you are doing so well , what are you doing on this forum?? If you know everything that the companies are doing why are you staying in this industry? I am confused?? I came back so I could find the problems in the industry today to write my new book. While doing so I discovered there are people here in REAL trouble! I sincerely want to help in any way I can.


???

I consider myself doing fairly well...does that mean I shouldn't be here??
I see this forum as a place to share and learn from others in my field. And hell, sometimes it's just nice to bitch to someone who has a clue what I am talking about...


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## GTX63

We were still using poloroids for business up into the 90s.

Beverly, in spite of your comment, this forum is not for people who are failures in life. The frequent contributors here are business owners who are self motivated, knowledgable and experienced in this field. We have subs and employees who need us to provide work so they can support their families. There is nothing a union can do for me. I am a business owner, not an employee who is beholden to a boss or super for their friday check.

Follow the posters to your comments. They are folks for whom REO work is not their sole source of revenue. They are smart enough to diversify. Anyone who believes they can succeed long term on REO/Preservation work is being foolish at best.

I also don't see many people who are in "real trouble" here, other than the newbies who don't know what they have gotten into. Go inside your local tavern around 3 p.m. this afternoon. Listen to the union pipe fitters or the framers cursing their boss and complaining about their working condtions. Whether it is a bar, church, the vfw, the bus, etc, people release. If you came up to a veteran electrician and said you "sincerely want to help" how do you think they would respond?

We do new construction, remodeling, flips, commercial building, etc. Foreclosure work is just another egg in the basket. I share my REO knowledge on here for those that need it, and vise versa.

No offense intended, but for all of your experience, you come off to me as somewhat naive.


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## JFMURFY

GTX63 said:


> We were still using poloroids for business up into the 90s.
> 
> Beverly, in spite of your comment, this forum is not for people who are failures in life. The frequent contributors here are business owners who are self motivated, knowledgable and experienced in this field. We have subs and employees who need us to provide work so they can support their families. There is nothing a union can do for me. I am a business owner, not an employee who is beholden to a boss or super for their friday check.
> 
> Follow the posters to your comments. They are folks for whom REO work is not their sole source of revenue. They are smart enough to diversify. Anyone who believes they can succeed long term on REO/Preservation work is being foolish at best.
> 
> I also don't see many people who are in "real trouble" here, other than the newbies who don't know what they have gotten into. Go inside your local tavern around 3 p.m. this afternoon. Listen to the union pipe fitters or the framers cursing their boss and complaining about their working condtions. Whether it is a bar, church, the vfw, the bus, etc, people release. If you came up to a veteran electrician and said you "sincerely want to help" how do you think they would respond?
> 
> We do new construction, remodeling, flips, commercial building, etc. Foreclosure work is just another egg in the basket. I share my REO knowledge on here for those that need it, and vise versa.
> 
> No offense intended, but for all of your experience, you come off to me as somewhat naive.


Wow...This Thread is getting alittle sour... Lighten up all. Object here is to gain knowledge and offer experience not degrade one another.


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## GTX63

Just laying out things as they are. I don't see any anything degrading in my post. If words like "naive" hurt feelings, then this may not be the forum for them.


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## JFMURFY

GTX63 said:


> Just laying out things as they are. I don't see any anything degrading in my post. If words like "naive" hurt feelings, then this may not be the forum for them.


I can see your point, however reading this thread I see it turning negative... post after post... negative. Now whether or not it hurts feelings is immaterial...its business, and this is a business site. Feelings don't play into it here...as you say, its a place to lay out the facts...and let the reader decide. 
I'm for networking that will bring positive growth to my business, and if vendors can share experiences both good and bad I can learn from that.
I'm 52, been in construction all my professional life, and emotions never got myself or colleagues anywhere ...except after hours in the disco...lol


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## GTX63

I agree. My thought is that a union is useless to business owners. This forum has a wealth of information for the REO crowd. There is every reason to participate. These threads shine a light on the industry that has been keeping contractors in the dark. But as far as changing the culture of Washington and the Nationals, other than the contined evolution of the housing crisis and the occassional bump from some litigation, it ain't gonna happen. It is their ball, their court, their game. But it isn't the only sport, so I go where I need to go.


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## JFMURFY

Agree Whole-heartedly... Union is not applicable to the contractors for P&P. An Association or Coalition that could work with the right Organizer.


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## BPWY

GTX63 said:


> Follow the posters to your comments. They are folks for whom REO work is not their sole source of revenue. They are smart enough to diversify. Anyone who believes they can succeed long term on REO/Preservation work is being foolish at best.








You are very correct on diversify!


I've told my story several times. 

In March of 09 I got into P&P a second time. The first time was back in the late 90s when we still used 35mm film, 1 hr development and overnight mail. 
In 09 it didn't take very many months to see the writing on the wall. P&P was in a tail spin DOWN. Man little did I know.
By the end of 09 I had started slowly transitioning my business away from solely bank work. It took some time as money was never in great supply. 
By the end of '10 beginning of '11 I was moving more towards lawn care and grounds maint for local customers. 
In Oct '10 I started installing aluminum handicap ramps for the VA.
By the end of '11 my lawn business was really booming and '12 looks to be a very stellar year for me. 
I have no real love for the P&P business mostly because so many nationals and regionals have left such a bad taste in my mouth.
But I respect the industry and the service companies that gave me work for the place they all played in getting my other much more stable business off the ground. 
Its a business line that I feel I can control my own destiny better than some cubical mind 1000 miles away giving a charge back to me because they had a bad day today.


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## Guest

Barefootlc,
I did not make that statement for people who are doing well as contractors, I made that statement because I was interpreting what he was saying as he made his money and was above everyone else and did not want anymore to do with this horrible industry. 
I certainly did not mean in any way to imply that there are failures here! Please do NOT think that in any way? If anyone got that out of any of my statements I sincerely apologize to you who may have thought that! 

For everyone else I am not naive, I am an old veteran and yes I know most contractors do p&P as a second income or a temporary income. But you know, We did not. Real Estate was my career period! I can go back to being a Broker anytime I would like and with all the craziness I am reading on here, I am really considering it.
Being a REO Broker is not difficult and I know where there are fantastic contractors who take their work very seriously.
I do realize I am addressing a group of contractors not Brokers, agents, and managers as well. Perhaps that was my mistake, I wrongly thought their was a mixture of professionals on this site.
There really are people in Real trouble on here! I am getting private messages every single day and I am helping those people as much as I can. 
As I said before. The best thing for me to do is just read and not post. anyone needing additional information may contact me by private message, I will remain available to contractors needing any assistance I can give.
As for everyone else, well, all I can say is I clarified that we were not discussing a union but a union-like form of leadership for a coalition or organization and still people are stuck on the word union! That tells me a lot!


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## Guest

JFMURFY said:


> Agree Whole-heartedly... Union is not applicable to the contractors for P&P. An Association or Coalition that could work with the right Organizer.


My dad is a union carpenter and he said he never realized how good he had it until he worked with me a few x


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## Gypsos

The first word in USSR was Union.


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## thanohano44

XLARGEX said:


> My dad is a union carpenter and he said he never realized how good he had it until he worked with me a few x


Funny, I had a cousin tell me the same thing.


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## thanohano44

Gypsos said:


> The first word in USSR was Union.


This is so true.


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## Guest

we should have a contractor talk convention and charge the nationals and regionals 6000 a pop and then tell them are prices and how we will do things for the next year.

I will also like to tell them that I am done receiving 20 work orders on friday afternoon at 4 58 pm and thinking I will get them done on the weekend.


----------



## mtmtnman

MKM Landscaping said:


> I will also like to tell them that I am done receiving 20 work orders on friday afternoon at 4 58 pm and thinking I will get them done on the weekend.



Boy that ain't no joke!!!! Cy-prix is good for that!!


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## BPWY

Start closing at 4:30 on fridays and set your email to send them an automated message that the office is now closed and emails will be answered in the order they were received monday morning.

Monday send them an estimated time of completion. 

I have no fear of getting in their faces and telling them that the weekend is mine to spend how I choose with my family. JUST LIKE THEY DO. When you remind them of the fact that THEY ARE NOT working all weekend they suddenly get real quiet.


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## HollandPPC

MKM Landscaping said:


> we should have a contractor talk convention and charge the nationals and regionals 6000 a pop and then tell them are prices and how we will do things for the next year.
> 
> I will also like to tell them that I am done receiving 20 work orders on friday afternoon at 4 58 pm and thinking I will get them done on the weekend.


Received 16 new maintenance properties from them on FRI at 4 30. Coordinator made sure to remind me the safety checklist must be done on all of the props and uploaded so she can see them first thing Monday. YAY!!!!!!!


----------



## BPWY

HollandPPC said:


> Received 16 new maintenance properties from them on FRI at 4 30. Coordinator made sure to remind me the safety checklist must be done on all of the props and uploaded so she can see them first thing Monday. YAY!!!!!!!





BPWY said:


> Start closing at 4:30 on fridays and set your email to send them an automated message that the office is now closed and emails will be answered in the order they were received monday morning.
> 
> Monday send them an estimated time of completion.
> 
> I have no fear of getting in their faces and telling them that the weekend is mine to spend how I choose with my family. JUST LIKE THEY DO. When you remind them of the fact that THEY ARE NOT working all weekend they suddenly get real quiet.







Like I said. The weekend is mine. They aint working, and neither am I.


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## Guest

BPWY said:


> Like I said. The weekend is mine. They aint working, and neither am I.


That would be nice.


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## Guest

Another point I would like to make about America's Infomart (AIM) is that for awhile they were really slow on payments. They said it was the United States Post Office. I setup a system where they could send payments overnight (excluding weekends) through FedEx. I paid the shipping as I wanted to be paid quicker. This was no extra cost to them. This worked for two months and then they didn't use it anymore.

I realized they stopped sending checks through FedEx when I called FedEx and asked about tracking information. FedEx had no record of a shipment coming from AIM to my address. I called AIM no response. Then, a week after payment was due, I got an email from Jan Kennedy saying basically that AIM will no longer use this service for any contractor.


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## Guest

AIM was a great account for me until recently,now they are about to get liened.


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## BPWY

AIM started going down hill about a year ago.

Looks like nothing has stopped their decline. 

I really wonder what happened to them.


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## SwiftRes

$20/hr is good for this kind of work? In all honesty I would disagree. Considering we have to wait 30-90 days for our money, be out $10s of thousands at all times in accounts receivable, deal with nitpicky reps on pictures, the hastle of knowing the "systems" and submission guidelines for many nationals, expectation to have thousands of equipment on hand to handle any type of electrical, plumbing, mold, roof, debris, cleaning, painting, jobs that are thrown at us. And have it all done in 3 days. As well as having good computer skills to submit thousands of photos

Yeah, if you were sitting at a desk, or getting a paycheck/salary of $40k a year, that wouldn't be too bad. But for all of the capital outlay, headaches, risks, etc., I disagree in this industry. 



Beverly S said:


> You are 100% correct about all your statements! There are way too many people turning and twisting the HUD requirements to suit their own needs, both nationals and contractors!
> The companies want more than 20% they want it all!!
> Some of the contractors who get a decent contract, think they are worth $200.00 per hour! I was talking to a gentleman just three days ago and he was complaining that the winterization was only paying $75.00 now. He stated it takes him two hours to do one. I just sort of chuckled and I asked him if he had a college degree or a Doctorate. He said no he just finished high school, that's all. So then I said, " Gee, the antifreeze is what about ten bucks? The gas is what , about another ten bucks? Now insurance for a business and bixz expenses should take another $15.00 which is 20% and that is figuring it high. So that leaves $40.00 for two hours of your labor right? he agreed. Then I asked him when was the last time you made $20.00 an hour for labor????
> To me that is a pretty decent wage. I have a master's degree and I don't make that kind of money in this economy. See , part of the problem is everyone thinks there is all this BIG money and they should be making it.
> I have to say, in this economy with jobs failing and homes being lost, just being able to make $20.00 per hour is a hell of a deal and one we should probably be grateful we can get. I am not trying to say the contractors should be happy they make $20.00 per hour and the nationals get $100.00. That is NOT my point here. My point is everyone needs to remember the DEPRESSION. We are there again. We need to buckle down and think about the things that are important instead of whining about not getting as rich as the nationals. This is the way it is. You are the bottom rung of the food chain! Either deal with it or don't do it! Go make more money doing something else!
> It slays me that people will whine and moan about the work they are doing yet they KEEP ON KEEPING ON!! A very wise man once told me, "if you are not part of the solution you are definately part of the problem"
> Think about that. Don't you think it's time the contractors took measures to deal with all the problems???


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## BPWY

One thing I was going to mention is that to have the $10s of thousands worth of equipment required IS NOT going to happen with the owner "making" a measly $20 an hr.


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## mtmtnman

BPWY said:


> One thing I was going to mention is that to have the $10s of thousands worth of equipment required IS NOT going to happen with the owner "making" a measly $20 an hr.



Amen to that!!! I have spent north of $80,000 in equipment in the last 4 years that i WOULD NOT have had to buy if i still had my 40 hr a week $23 an hour foreman job. And like Swift said, $20 an hour don't account for waiting 2 months for your money instead of 2 weeks plus everything else it takes to run a business!!! Things like $1000 per month for health insurance!!!!


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## BPWY

When you sit down and think about it most small biz owners like us sure aren't in this for the money!!!!

Most of us provide a comfortable living at best. Certainly not getting rich.


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## mtmtnman

BPWY said:


> When you sit down and think about it most small biz owners like us sure aren't in this for the money!!!!
> 
> Most of us provide a comfortable living at best. Certainly not getting rich.



With the current "We Hate Small Business" administration in Washington it's hard to even make a comfortable living!!!


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## thanohano44

mtmtnman said:


> With the current "We Hate Small Business" administration in Washington it's hard to even make a comfortable living!!!


That's cause Barry doesn't want you to be self sufficient. He wants you to depend on the government instead of God.


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## Guest

With the way that all these asset management companies keep downgrading the pricing and requiring more, isn't it time to fight back? I believe if the P&P and REO companies banded together, it would not only create a solidarity amongst fellow companies, but begin putting these asset management companies in line with realistic pricing.

Anyone else feel the same way?


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## GTX63

You trying to flag a cab that has already gone around the corner. No matter how strong the front, in this business there will always be a Felipe or Hector that will jump right in and do the job for 30 cents on the dollar.


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## Guest

GTX63, thanks for the quick input, and you do have a valid point.

It is unfortunate as it would be a benefit in the long run.


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## GTX63

I agree, but with these Nationals, there is no long run, there is only right now. They could not care less what state the housing market will be in 10 years, as long as they are reaping record profits right now. I don't care how much of a front they put on, the dollar is all they want.


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## thanohano44

GTX63 said:


> I agree, but with these Nationals, there is no long run, there is only right now. They could not care less what state the housing market will be in 10 years, as long as they are reaping record profits right now. I don't care how much of a front they put on, the dollar is all they want.


Isn't that what everyone concerned about? This business isn't set up to keep everyone busy. The main goal of this business is to move the inventory into sales ASAP for the least amount of money and the largest profit margins possible. Thus a lot of BS charge backs. 

I've spoke with people who have web doing this for 20+ Years. They've seen the cycles of contractors come and go.


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## Guest

*Contractors will NEVER band together for a common good because you will always have the percentage that wants to be negative about everything. However if a few did get it all together and stand for a change, those guys who are negative would be first in line for better pay and better conditions griping all the way because now they would have nothing to complain about. LOL Nothing will ever change unless the people who are doing the work make it change! So sad but the honest truth!*


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## GTX63

The dollar isn't all I live for. We had record sales two years ago and we all benefitted. Our crews, my office. If I raise my price, I pay my sub more as well.
I work for my name just as much as for the check.


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## GTX63

Sorry Beverly, my last post was not negative. Everyone at my company enjoys coming to work everyday. It is not our thinking, it is the small segment of our revenue stream called "REO" that draws the negative vibe. I would suggest, if you are seriously doing research for your book, that you form a small LLC, gather 5 or 6 folks together and get back in the business for a bit. I think it will get you back up to speed/date and help you understand what the core of many of these posts really is.


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## thanohano44

Beverly S said:


> Contractors will NEVER band together for a common good because you will always have the percentage that wants to be negative about everything. However if a few did get it all together and stand for a change, those guys who are negative would be first in line for better pay and better conditions griping all the way because now they would have nothing to complain about. LOL Nothing will ever change unless the people who are doing the work make it change! So sad but the honest truth!


I've been told every 10 years that contractors get together and refuse to do the work at some point. I am wondering if there were as many hacks doing this work 20-30 years ago? If so what drove them out of business?

The past 3 years have become so cut throat and full of BS. Thankfully I've been able make some great contacts on here to transition into other fields. I've learned of others around the country with similar experiences and decided to also adapt my business model. Change is constant in any profession, business and life in general, do just keep your eyes peeled for other opportunities. 

When I first got into this business 8 years ago, it was much more enjoyable than it is now.


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## thanohano44

GTX63 said:


> Sorry Beverly, my last post was not negative. Everyone at my company enjoys coming to work everyday. It is not our thinking, it is the small segment of our revenue stream called "REO" that draws the negative vibe. I would suggest, if you are seriously doing research for your book, that you form a small LLC, gather 5 or 6 folks together and get back in the business for a bit. I think it will get you back up to speed/date and help you understand what the core of many of these posts really is.


Beverly did direct work. She didn't go through nationals. Different ball game. Net 30-90 pay terms or whatever she was able to negotiate with her clients. 

Beverly,

I believe I may have met you twice in 2007 in St Louis MO and Ft Mill SC at a servicing convention My boss' initials were LF but went by a name that started with an R, childhood nick name. I don't want to post his name up here but as a clue, this was when my previous employer was going back with another bank for the largest bank in the world. I looked up your book and your face looks so familiar.


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## Guest

You most likely did meet me at servicing conventions. Yes I know LF Or (R) Personally. There was also Charlie N from Missouri dealing with the bigger banks back then, he was one of my original mentors back in the 70's and 80's also the "Flying Realtor Tim S" . 
You are so correct, I obtained direct contracts, never ever did I mess with the contractor contracts. I made the right money and if I went back today I would be sitting across the desk of the biggest five banks smiling at them and asking for my new contracts. 
I am trying so hard to tell everyone that they are shooting themselves in the foot, but to no avail. You have to go to the top stop playing on the bottom! Of course you will lose money if you insist on getting leftovers! 
I have read all the posts about the contractors complaining about companies, yet they are dealing with the lowest vendor managers! If I had a problem at AIM, I would take it up with Suzanne the owner! Not some pee- on who doesn't even know what is going on! If you insist on dealing at the low end of this industry you will only get low end fees!


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## mtmtnman

Beverly S said:


> You most likely did meet me at servicing conventions. Yes I know LF Or (R) Personally. There was also Charlie N from Missouri dealing with the bigger banks back then, he was one of my original mentors back in the 70's and 80's also the "Flying Realtor Tim S" .
> You are so correct, I obtained direct contracts, never ever did I mess with the contractor contracts. I made the right money and if I went back today I would be sitting across the desk of the biggest five banks smiling at them and asking for my new contracts.
> I am trying so hard to tell everyone that they are shooting themselves in the foot, but to no avail. You have to go to the top stop playing on the bottom! Of course you will lose money if you insist on getting leftovers!
> I have read all the posts about the contractors complaining about companies, yet they are dealing with the lowest vendor managers! If I had a problem at AIM, I would take it up with Suzanne the owner! Not some pee- on who doesn't even know what is going on! If you insist on dealing at the low end of this industry you will only get low end fees!



Going to the top has no merit in this day and age unless you want to cover many states. I have no desire to be that big. I have filled out contractor packages for Wells, BAC, and CITI offering to cover 1/2 of Montana, roughly 75,000 Sq Miles. I have been told time and time again they MIGHT play ball if i would take ALL of Montana, Wyoming and part of Idaho. This is nearly impossible and the proof is how many different companies these banks have went through in the last 5 years here who THOUGHT they could cover it and ended up not coming through.................


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## Guest

You could in fact cover that many states if say... five or six of you contractors got together and took those contracts as a regional contract. 
Just saying... back in the day, that is how we got started. Many of us got together and formed working relationships, so we could get the direct contracts. we all worked together for that common cause. 
The only reason it won't work today is because you have that greed factor even among the contractors.

See, we never made one dime off each others work... we just worked as a unit and whomever did the job in which ever state also got that entire check. Then those contractors would pitch in to help pay that office staff each month. We just divided the cost by seven contractors and guess what?? IT worked!! It worked for years, until we all started getting too old for that fast pace, then we just chopped off the states that wanted to go on and sold out the rest. 
That would not happen today because that element of TRUST and cooperation is just not there!! And there are several who will fight to keep it from ever being there.
We made the actual HUD prices from the bank direct. We had M & M's calling us for contracts. We also helped a few of those asset management companies when they were in a rut. But , the biggest thing was this. We ran like a well oiled machine and we all made plenty of good money! About 2009 and 2010 the bigs boys got out after 20 to thirty years and all the low rung contractors clamored for any work at all. No organization, no comradery, absolutely NO trust what so ever! And that was the beginning of the end of a really good thing. 
So now all the nationals are just sitting back weeding out as much as they can and hoping against hope some of the old type contractors will step up.


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> Since I sold out and retired in 2010 I have been getting emails and phone calls about so many changes in the industry. I am sure with those changes come many problems also. I have been speaking with some of the very top m & m's and they also say there are problems.
> I am trying to find out what the most common problems seem to be in P & P work or Reo maintenance today.
> I read posts of no pay, bad companies, no bids accepted, etc. what else seems to be plaguing this industry today? I would love the opportunity to address some of these new problems specifically with the M & Ms. Maybe that is a good place to start so we can possibly implement some positive changes.
> Any responses will be greatly appreciated.[/QU
> 
> Professionalism. The way most of these companies talk to and treat the contractors is downright disrespectful.


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## Guest

Some may call this negative thinking but I don't really care about them as they tend to think that sentences end in an 'LOL' instead of a period, putting out an ebook means you are published, and confusing members of this board as Brokers instead of Independent Contractors which led to some fun confusion.

I am a realist.

As a realist I believe that the _absolute best_ that a contractor can hope for in the P&P industry is to get out. Preferably with some green in the bank and contacts with local, residential customers.

The reason I joined this forum is that this form of 'networking' works best for me. I do not have the gift of gab nor the fast, information crunching brain to instantly receive, digest, then respond to verbal queries intelligently. I am slow, prodding, and after a fashion cautious about making sure my backside is covered. 

This kind of 'networking' is about all I want from this forum and about what I expected to take part in. I did not join this forum to create a union nor band with other contractors to take on a huge statewide contract. I don't believe that that kind of organization will work in today's world...maybe 30 years ago but not today. Joining an association with other P&P contractors...maybe. It would really depend on the charter, who gets in, and whether or not it would have a positive impact on my companies dealings with my current "clients."

I can think of a few reasons that a union or formation of this multi-contractor partnership will not work.

The ideology of the contractors on this forum is more geared toward independence than cooperation and rightly so.
The logistical requirements of running a multi-faceted state wide conglomeration of (lets admit...*fiercely*) independent contractors is beyond many on this board. I count myself in that number.
The need for cash reserves to just start up a corporation that some have suggested is not possible with many contractors on this board. I am not speaking of the dozen or so who are doing very well, I am talking about the contractors like me who lurked for months or even years before their first post.
For this construct of contractors to work, there would have to be a central point for information (and money, really) to flow to and out of. The need for a 'staff' would also become necessary. That is just a big...big risk in an already risky business. I mean, really, how many contractors in the other trades conceal-carry?
The final reason (that I can come up with) is trust. Too many contractors on this board and who read this board, have been burned not just by nationals but by other contractors. I have misfortune to belong to both groups as I have been burned by contractors and nationals. I don't trust anyone (though I will listen to a few on this forum when I ask _them_ questions).

This is not to be taken as criticism of individuals thinking on this subject matter, but really a counter-argument against the overabundance of euphoric opinion making.


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## Guest

_Some of the contractors who get a decent contract, think they are worth $200.00 per hour! I was talking to a gentleman just three days ago and he was complaining that the winterization was only paying $75.00 now. He stated it takes him two hours to do one. I just sort of chuckled and I asked him if he had a college degree or a Doctorate. He said no he just finished high school, that's all. So then I said, " Gee, the antifreeze is what about ten bucks? The gas is what , about another ten bucks? Now insurance for a business and bixz expenses should take another $15.00 which is 20% and that is figuring it high. So that leaves $40.00 for two hours of your labor right? he agreed. Then I asked him when was the last time you made $20.00 an hour for labor???? _

Seriously?? I pay for the insurance that allows me to offer that service, the digital camera that allows me to prove I did it, the internet service that allows me to upload it and get paid for it. Takes 2 hrs to do the wint...but you also have office time taking photos from card, saving them to my computer, date/time stamping (or not) depending on the client, processing invoice, and uploading or emailing photos, invoice and completed property condition report.

Apples and Oranges...your average hourly employee only has the expense of getting back and forth to work.

And I actually made 75/hr at my last job...and it was much easier.


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## Gypsos

72opp said:


> Some may call this negative thinking but I don't really care about them as they tend to think that sentences end in an 'LOL' instead of a period, putting out an ebook means you are published, and confusing members of this board as Brokers instead of Independent Contractors which led to some fun confusion.
> 
> I am a realist.
> 
> As a realist I believe that the _absolute best_ that a contractor can hope for in the P&P industry is to get out. Preferably with some green in the bank and contacts with local, residential customers.
> 
> The reason I joined this forum is that this form of 'networking' works best for me. I do not have the gift of gab nor the fast, information crunching brain to instantly receive, digest, then respond to verbal queries intelligently. I am slow, prodding, and after a fashion cautious about making sure my backside is covered.
> 
> This kind of 'networking' is about all I want from this forum and about what I expected to take part in. I did not join this forum to create a union nor band with other contractors to take on a huge statewide contract. I don't believe that that kind of organization will work in today's world...maybe 30 years ago but not today. Joining an association with other P&P contractors...maybe. It would really depend on the charter, who gets in, and whether or not it would have a positive impact on my companies dealings with my current "clients."
> 
> I can think of a few reasons that a union or formation of this multi-contractor partnership will not work.
> 
> The ideology of the contractors on this forum is more geared toward independence than cooperation and rightly so.
> The logistical requirements of running a multi-faceted state wide conglomeration of (lets admit...*fiercely*) independent contractors is beyond many on this board. I count myself in that number.
> The need for cash reserves to just start up a corporation that some have suggested is not possible with many contractors on this board. I am not speaking of the dozen or so who are doing very well, I am talking about the contractors like me who lurked for months or even years before their first post.
> For this construct of contractors to work, there would have to be a central point for information (and money, really) to flow to and out of. The need for a 'staff' would also become necessary. That is just a big...big risk in an already risky business. I mean, really, how many contractors in the other trades conceal-carry?
> The final reason (that I can come up with) is trust. Too many contractors on this board and who read this board, have been burned not just by nationals but by other contractors. I have misfortune to belong to both groups as I have been burned by contractors and nationals. I don't trust anyone (though I will listen to a few on this forum when I ask _them_ questions).
> 
> This is not to be taken as criticism of individuals thinking on this subject matter, but really a counter-argument against the overabundance of euphoric opinion making.


Well said.


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## Guest

I see many retorts to my comparison with the contractor who was making $20.00 per hour.
I guess my biggest question is this... If you are not making enough money, then why are you still doing it??? 
Yes insurance costs money, but guess what? That is the price we pay for being in business for ourselves. It is called free enterprise. 
Yes the nationals don't always pay a large amount of money, anyone ever asked why??? 
Yes, they will cut contractors back on some of their work orders, Again. anyone ever ask why??? 

I still cannot believe anyone with any business sense would stay in a business where they are NOT making any money. seriously, how long could anyone really do that? 
So exactly how much money do you think you should be making as a contractor. Per hour? Now I am just really curious. Anyone have any answer???


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> I see many retorts to my comparison with the contractor who was making $20.00 per hour.
> I guess my biggest question is this... If you are not making enough money, then why are you still doing it???
> Yes insurance costs money, but guess what? That is the price we pay for being in business for ourselves. It is called free enterprise.
> Yes the nationals don't always pay a large amount of money, anyone ever asked why???
> Yes, they will cut contractors back on some of their work orders, Again. anyone ever ask why???
> 
> I still cannot believe anyone with any business sense would stay in a business where they are NOT making any money. seriously, how long could anyone really do that?
> So exactly how much money do you think you should be making as a contractor. Per hour? Now I am just really curious. Anyone have any answer???


We are making money or we would not do it. My complaints are regarding the companies that want to pay peanuts. Esp those that we have previously been getting x amount and now they want all our prices lowered. 
I bid my jobs to make average 30/hr after costs. If I can't get that, it isn't worth doing.


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## GTX63

We calculate our profits off each job, not by the hour. I'd rather not know what we made per hour to build and market spec homes or rehab commercial property. Doing REO jobs doesn't mean we are worth $20 per hour, just that I have guys willing to do the work. Everything else we do, we determine our own price and then the market decides if we are worth it.


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## RichR

I got to admit, I used to be "Team Beverly" and embarrassed at how some of these guys were hammering you. But now you are starting to sound just like the Cubical Rats working for the Nationals. You certainly don't sound like you have any real world present time experience with the Contracting end of this business. There is clearly 2 sides to this fence and I can see what side your on. Your apparent chummy friendships with the higher ups have certainly clouded your perspective on this field.


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## Guest

It seems that I have spawned much debate from my one question, when in fact I was just curious (From a Contractors perspective) if other service providers felt the same way I did. I believe that 72opp has made a valid point which is Trust; and it is quite common that everyone is just looking out for themselves.

It appears the overall perspective from the comments and responses I have read, is that the probability factor of organizing a consortium of contractors (a.k.a. Vendors) for the P&P / REO work is very low; although I believe that it would be a benefit to all.

The same methodologies to which I envision, have been used in many industries where associate companies work together for the betterment of all.


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## Guest

Firat of all..." My chummy friendships" as you refer to them, are all people just like you!! They use to be Realtors, contractors etc back in the day. 
that is why I do in fact know them! 
Secondly, I am not on any side!! I had the foresight to get the hell off of a sinking ship " BEFORE it sank".
I am writing a book that is it! And yes you are in fact a published author if someone like Amazon or Kindle offers to publish your book and give you royalties after they buy the rights.
I have decades of experience with the contracting end of this industry. As I have stated more than once, I was contracting before all of you even knew this was an industry! 
Before I myself knew I was in this industry, I was in fact contracting. 
There are two sides to any story , that is something I think everyone is aware of. 
However, I think the one really honest statement was " We are making money or we would not do it". So if you are making money, why complain? Why pee and moan in your own cheerios? If companies are undercutting prices, why keep working for those companies? 
If in fact $30.00 per hour after costs per job covers your Business expenses then how is that any different than what I said ? Except I was $2.50 per hour cheaper with the biz cost. 
Personally I don't really care if the companies make any money, I don't care if some of the arrogant, know it all contractors make any money, I am trying to just find out what is going on in the industry today, because there are people who really do want to enter this industry and do it right. I feel they have a right to know if there really is a possibility of making a decent living,( not getting rich) but making a living. There are some folks who still need jobs and incomes, those folks have a right to be able to make an informed decision.


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## Guest

In theory organizing together is great...but I see no way it could work.

We could do so much more for each other just by refusing to do these services for cut rate pricing and lowering standard prices for everyone.
Yes, you can underbid a competitor and get that job, but in the end you hurt not only that competitor....but ultimately yourself and our industry as a whole.


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## Guest

Reo access you are correct in your thinking. As time goes on many industries have banned together for the betterment of all concerned. It is a real sign of the times.

Barefootlc, that is banding together. When a group of contractors take a stand and put up a united fron, they have banned together, whether they want to realize it or not, and that is mostly what I have been referring to. Stick together, hold your prices and only then will it change. It takes networking and talking to each other to do something like this. Is that what everyone is afraid of?


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> Personally I don't really care if the companies make any money, I don't care if some of the arrogant, know it all contractors make any money, I am trying to just find out what is going on in the industry today,


Your way of attempting to find out what is going on in the industry today is like the village idiot bashing a hornets nest looking for honey.

It don't matter what you say, I ain't going to read it 'cause you're off to the ignore list with the likes of cutthis.


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> Reo access you are correct in your thinking. As time goes on many industries have banned together for the betterment of all concerned. It is a real sign of the times.
> 
> Barefootlc, that is banding together. When a group of contractors take a stand and put up a united fron, they have banned together, whether they want to realize it or not, and that is mostly what I have been referring to. Stick together, hold your prices and only then will it change. It takes networking and talking to each other to do something like this. Is that what everyone is afraid of?


I was referring to the idea of contractors teaming up and covering an area...
As for the 30/hr....I should have said we wouldn't take a job that didn't make at least 30/hr. As a "facilitator" of the jobs, very difficult to actual count up my hours. 

I am not picking sides....I am always team Kimberly :clap:

I agree with a lot of what Beverly has posted here.


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## Guest

Barefootic: I believe that if the contractors are banding together and declining work then in fact, they are beginning to form alliances and silently building the consortium, they just don't look at it in that perspective. In my experience there has always been a benefit to networking with other companies in any industry, and they networking is very much the ground work to build a consortium.

BeverlyS: Thank you for the acknowledgement of my thought process.


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## Gypsos

This industry is no different than the commercial construction industry I left a couple of years ago.

I guess the root of the problem is cash flow and trust, or more to the point the lack of both. The banks control the cash flow and nobody trusts them, and with good reason I might add. 

Every time I see a sign that says, "this project financed by (insert bank name here)" I want to puke. It is a lie. No bank has ever financed a project. Ever. Period. 

Projects are financed by the lowest tier subcontractor. The plumber, the drywall sub, the electrician, the concrete sub, the site sub, the painter, the cabinet maker, etc., etc. These are the people who finance the project. They buy the materials, pay for the labor, take the risk and then wait months to be paid, maybe.

What we do is no different. Regardless of what anyone says we know the banks are run by greedy, heartless people who do not care one iota about what happens to us. Our only consolation is in knowing that they will all get to smoke a turd in hell for the way they behaved while they were on earth and had the power to do good but chose not to. 

This banding together everyone talks of costs money and since the majority of us do not have any extra money to pay for such an organization it will not happen.

They do not want our feedback. They thrive on chaos and fraud. They want us at each others throats so they can control the prices. If they cared we would not have to take massive coverage areas to be able to work directly for them. Accomodations could be made, but they won't be.

I have reached out on more than one occasion to my competition and to my customers and offered for free to help with teaching new vendors the ropes. Without exception I get treated like I am nuts or just plain stupid. So I look out for me and mine, just like every one else, just like the banks want it to be.


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## Gypsos

Beverly S said:


> Stick together, hold your prices and only then will it change. It takes networking and talking to each other to do something like this. Is that what everyone is afraid of?


This hold your price thing assumes you do not go out of business for lack of work first. They know what they are doing and are very good at doing it. 

What happens when they decide that several of us are in collusion to control prices by refusing to do work at the "standard industry rates" and file lawsuits. What do we do then? The banks will protect their empires and they will squash us to do so if it strikes thier fancy. 

This is why I specialize doing maintenance lawn cuts and montly maids. I quit doing trash outs becuase it pays about half of what I can make doing lawns and cleans. I quit bidding most work for the same reason. There is simply no money to be made. 

I do not fear networking or working together. I enjoy it and embrace it. I fear not being able to feed my kids and pay my bills and I provide the best product I am able to provide for the price I am being paid.


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## Guest

reoaccess said:


> With the way that all these asset management companies keep downgrading the pricing and requiring more, isn't it time to fight back? I believe if the P&P and REO companies banded together, it would not only create a solidarity amongst fellow companies, but begin putting these asset management companies in line with realistic pricing.
> 
> Anyone else feel the same way?


Amen, we need to form a trend and get the word out!!!


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## Guest

Gypsos said:


> This hold your price thing assumes you do not go out of business for lack of work first. They know what they are doing and are very good at doing it.
> 
> What happens when they decide that several of us are in collusion to control prices by refusing to do work at the "standard industry rates" and file lawsuits. What do we do then? The banks will protect their empires and they will squash us to do so if it strikes thier fancy.
> 
> This is why I specialize doing maintenance lawn cuts and montly maids. I quit doing trash outs becuase it pays about half of what I can make doing lawns and cleans. I quit bidding most work for the same reason. There is simply no money to be made.
> 
> I do not fear networking or working together. I enjoy it and embrace it. I fear not being able to feed my kids and pay my bills and I provide the best product I am able to provide for the price I am being paid.


I find the exact opposite...lawns are fine, no money in cleans...we make our money on the trashouts. Doing one now...will take my two guys 2 full days to trashout and do lawn, Lisa will do clean. After labor and dump fees I will clear 1100. Much more profitable than the lawns which net me about 20 ea.


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## BPWY

thanohano44 said:


> I've been told every 10 years that contractors get together and refuse to do the work at some point. I am wondering if there were as many hacks doing this work 20-30 years ago? If so what drove them out of business?
> 
> The past 3 years have become so cut throat and full of BS.









Troy I believe what makes it different now than before is the events leading up to the housing crash and the events causing the housing crash.

During the Bush years there was a major push to get folks to "own their own house". $0 down, 120% financing, no credit checks, no docs required etc etc etc just to get folks to "own". That was the lead up.
Many more people are now "home owners", and many many of them are completely unqualified financially to be a home owner.

Then the economy crashes. First to be laid off were the folks that did the $0 down, or had the 120% financing etc and they begin defaulting.
As the economy crashes even more the pain begins to grow and spread up the economical food chain. Middle and upper middle class income folks are now loosing their houses.
Housing values that were falsely inflated thanks to every one wanting to buy or build begin to fall. To the point now where you have very wealthy folks go the "strategic foreclosure" route. Which I think should be 100% illegal.


My point to all of this is that the workers that have lost their jobs are at this stage in the game desperate for income. Any income. 
Not realizing the full scheme of things they are willing to soak up the cheap axx pay that is dished out. In their mind after coming from an hourly wage job they are making a killing on the gross income that is being given out for these jobs. 
Reality sets in 90 days from now when they are finally getting a check. Or not.
Or when the charge backs start. They suddenly realize they've gotten in WAY over their heads and tell the service company to piss up a rope.
No problem, there is always another unsuspecting slug around the corner that needs to roll some money up quick like or he'll loose his house too.

The service companies being the greedy unethical pigs that they are are all too happy to exploit these hungry people. Their unethical ways know no bottom and at this point in the game many of them if not most have resorted to flat out illegal activity to feed their evil greedy ways.

I'd say we have another 2 to 3 years before the industry hits rock bottom and once again the legitimate contractor will be recognized for who he is.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> You most likely did meet me at servicing conventions. Yes I know LF Or (R) Personally. There was also Charlie N from Missouri dealing with the bigger banks back then, he was one of my original mentors back in the 70's and 80's also the "Flying Realtor Tim S" .
> You are so correct, I obtained direct contracts, never ever did I mess with the contractor contracts. I made the right money and if I went back today I would be sitting across the desk of the biggest five banks smiling at them and asking for my new contracts.
> I am trying so hard to tell everyone that they are shooting themselves in the foot, but to no avail. You have to go to the top stop playing on the bottom! Of course you will lose money if you insist on getting leftovers!
> I have read all the posts about the contractors complaining about companies, yet they are dealing with the lowest vendor managers! If I had a problem at AIM, I would take it up with Suzanne the owner! Not some pee- on who doesn't even know what is going on! If you insist on dealing at the low end of this industry you will only get low end fees!






Today the industry is designed to prevent the contractor from dealing with the man or woman that makes the decisions and get things done.
Myself, mtmtnman, Troy, Fremont etc etc are not going to be able to get face time with the big man at the top.



As for AIM, by all indications they are a has been.


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## Guest

BPWY said:


> Today the industry is designed to prevent the contractor from dealing with the man or woman that makes the decisions and get things done.
> Myself, mtmtnman, Troy, Fremont etc etc are not going to be able to get face time with the big man at the top.
> 
> 
> 
> As for AIM, by all indications they are a has been.


Very, very true. This is another reason why people need to see that what Beverley keeps on saying is not relevant to today's industry.


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## BPWY

72opp said:


> Very, very true. This is another reason why people need to see that what Beverley keeps on saying is not relevant to today's industry.






Like I said her heart is in the right place I think. 

But she is still working on old info. 


Times have changed A LOT in the last couple years.
I got in winter of 09. Things changed A LOT in just a few months.


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## SwiftRes

barefootlc said:


> I find the exact opposite...lawns are fine, no money in cleans...we make our money on the trashouts. Doing one now...will take my two guys 2 full days to trashout and do lawn, Lisa will do clean. After labor and dump fees I will clear 1100. Much more profitable than the lawns which net me about 20 ea.


I echo you. I do not do lawn or snow removal because they don't pay nearly as well as the cleanouts. But I did notice you do a lot of work for Cyprexx, which I have in the past, and I think they are quite low on their snow/lawn services compared to others, and are OK on trashouts. They want to pay $35 usually for lawn/snow services, unless you can negotiate them up. I've gotten $60 from other nationals. If I could get 40 lawns biweekly for $60/ea, then that might be more profitable.


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## mtmtnman

Most lawn care companies around here are $25-$35 for under 10,000 Sq Ft in town NOT ON BANK OWNED! We don't have any Hispanics here either. Just everyone and their brother with a mower......


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## SwiftRes

Yeah. $35 may be OK if you didn't have the photo aspect plus 30-90 day payment terms. By the time I have to take X number of before, X number of action, X number of after photos, and pick up any yard debris, etc., that's what costs more. 



mtmtnman said:


> Most lawn care companies around here are $25-$35 for under 10,000 Sq Ft in town NOT ON BANK OWNED! We don't have any Hispanics here either. Just everyone and their brother with a mower......


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## Gypsos

BPWY said:


> Today the industry is designed to prevent the contractor from dealing with the man or woman that makes the decisions and get things done.
> Myself, mtmtnman, Troy, Fremont etc etc are not going to be able to get face time with the big man at the top.
> 
> 
> 
> As for AIM, by all indications they are a has been.


I have tried to talk to muckety mucks. The have hired people who are very adept at preventing this from happening.


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## Gypsos

barefootlc said:


> I find the exact opposite...lawns are fine, no money in cleans...we make our money on the trashouts. Doing one now...will take my two guys 2 full days to trashout and do lawn, Lisa will do clean. After labor and dump fees I will clear 1100. Much more profitable than the lawns which net me about 20 ea.


Trashouts here are almost always for the flat rate of $365. Includes 20CY of debris, 20 bulbs, 20 switch/outlet covers, and initial lawn cut. Then the white glove inspection afterwords. 

I fly solo most of the time so it takes me two days to do a simple one. 

On the other hand I can complete between 10 and 15 cuts and cleans in one day by myself with a lot less headaches.


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## SwiftRes

:blink: 

Who is that for? Without including a securing in there, my cheapest national would be around $625 for that job and two guys could complete in a day, typically. We are doing one right now that's 60 CYD or so, but the worst is that about 30 CYD of it is all LOOSE small junk strewn around the house, that's the worst to remove. 

But of course as we all know, 1 CYD of loose strewn about clothes and food is the same as a small entertainment center that can be removed in 2 minutes.



Gypsos said:


> Trashouts here are almost always for the flat rate of $365. Includes 20CY of debris, 20 bulbs, 20 switch/outlet covers, and initial lawn cut. Then the white glove inspection afterwords.
> 
> I fly solo most of the time so it takes me two days to do a simple one.
> 
> On the other hand I can complete between 10 and 15 cuts and cleans in one day by myself with a lot less headaches.


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## SwiftRes

I tried emailing a contractor I see constantly on a lot of my sign-in sheets. They cover a large service area, as do we. Was going to discuss doing job sharing of some sort with him, on times we get overloaded and I'm sure they do. No response. May try giving him a call this week.


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## Guest

barefootlc said:


> We are making money or we would not do it. My complaints are regarding the companies that want to pay peanuts. Esp those that we have previously been getting x amount and now they want all our prices lowered.
> I bid my jobs to make average 30/hr after costs. If I can't get that, it isn't worth doing.


:drink:


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## Guest

barefootlc said:


> _Some of the contractors who get a decent contract, think they are worth $200.00 per hour! I was talking to a gentleman just three days ago and he was complaining that the winterization was only paying $75.00 now. He stated it takes him two hours to do one. I just sort of chuckled and I asked him if he had a college degree or a Doctorate. He said no he just finished high school, that's all. So then I said, " Gee, the antifreeze is what about ten bucks? The gas is what , about another ten bucks? Now insurance for a business and bixz expenses should take another $15.00 which is 20% and that is figuring it high. So that leaves $40.00 for two hours of your labor right? he agreed. Then I asked him when was the last time you made $20.00 an hour for labor???? _
> 
> Seriously?? I pay for the insurance that allows me to offer that service, the digital camera that allows me to prove I did it, the internet service that allows me to upload it and get paid for it. Takes 2 hrs to do the wint...but you also have office time taking photos from card, saving them to my computer, date/time stamping (or not) depending on the client, processing invoice, and uploading or emailing photos, invoice and completed property condition report.
> 
> Apples and Oranges...your average hourly employee only has the expense of getting back and forth to work.
> 
> And I actually made 75/hr at my last job...and it was much easier.


Not to argue but I think your math is way off(correct me if I'm wrong) if a 2 hour job pays 75.00...Labor/if i pay 10/hr after taxes comp, liability the cost to me is 15/hr so labor is 30.00 not including drive time so gas and antifreeze is 20.00 thats 10 .00 for overhead and 10.00 for materials now we are to 50.00. we haven't accounted for all the overhead though..all the time soent at the office with paperwork. so if I pay my office help 10/hr that's another 15.00 so now we are at 65.00 also in the overhaed should be the owners profit so as an owner I want to make 15/hr that's another 30.00 now we are at 95.00 and we havent even got to profit yet. so how are you making money at 75.00 for 2 hours? The work isn't cheaper just because the owner is doing the work. If it is the owner is simply working for wages...Labor+Materials+Overhead+Profit= Cost


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## thanohano44

summithomeinc said:


> Not to argue but I think your math is way off(correct me if I'm wrong) if a 2 hour job pays 75.00...Labor/if i pay 10/hr after taxes comp, liability the cost to me is 15/hr so labor is 30.00 not including drive time so gas and antifreeze is 20.00 thats 10 .00 for overhead and 10.00 for materials now we are to 50.00. we haven't accounted for all the overhead though..all the time soent at the office with paperwork. so if I pay my office help 10/hr that's another 15.00 so now we are at 65.00 also in the overhaed should be the owners profit so as an owner I want to make 15/hr that's another 30.00 now we are at 95.00 and we havent even got to profit yet. so how are you making money at 75.00 for 2 hours? The work isn't cheaper just because the owner is doing the work. If it is the owner is simply working for wages...Labor+Materials+Overhead+Profit= Cost


Doesn't it make you feel like punching yourself in the face somedays?


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## Guest

thanohano44 said:


> Doesn't it make you feel like punching yourself in the face somedays?


I just don't get it. If the prices posted are the norm then why would anyone do the work...I know from experience that having money doesn't mean you are making money...one day all the bills will catch up...then what? and to laugh and say35/hr is too much? when really 60/hr isn't enough? wtf?


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## SwiftRes

The issue is really specific to the WO you receive.

If you get sent out to do ONLY a winterization, it's a losing proposition. If you are doing debris removal, sales clean, securing, lawn, then it's worth eating a winterization.

The problem arises when a company wants you to specify an all-encompassing coverage area that you can handle ANY size WO in. I cover quite a bit of my state, when the jobs are securings, debris, repairs, etc. etc. But for example I had a company send me (4) inspections for $24 each. It would have totalled around 700 miles of driving for $96. I explained this to them, told them I needed $0.50/mile, they got upset and said it was in my coverage area and that if I can't do these jobs in my coverage area I need to reduce it. That's what makes me bitter about some of the nationals. 



summithomeinc said:


> I just don't get it. If the prices posted are the norm then why would anyone do the work...I know from experience that having money doesn't mean you are making money...one day all the bills will catch up...then what? and to laugh and say35/hr is too much? when really 60/hr isn't enough? wtf?


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## BPWY

SwiftRes said:


> But for example I had a company send me (4) inspections for $24 each. It would have totalled around 700 miles of driving for $96. I explained this to them, told them I needed $0.50/mile, they got upset and said it was in my coverage area and that if I can't do these jobs in my coverage area I need to reduce it. That's what makes me bitter about some of the nationals.







Sounds like many a conversation I had with _the brothers._


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## SwiftRes

This was actually not one of the normally talked about companies. I have these kinds of orders with SG too, I shiver when I read "Post-Sale Convey Check" but usually i am able to schedule it alongside one or two decent paying jobs.



BPWY said:


> Sounds like many a conversation I had with _the brothers._


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## Guest

or MCS


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## SwiftRes

We got several initial pre-sale secure/wints re-assigned to us rush yesterday. One of my guys completed them today. Green car antifreeze in the toilets, even left the containers behind. NICE.


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## Gypsos

SwiftRes said:


> :blink:
> 
> Who is that for? Without including a securing in there, my cheapest national would be around $625 for that job and two guys could complete in a day, typically. We are doing one right now that's 60 CYD or so, but the worst is that about 30 CYD of it is all LOOSE small junk strewn around the house, that's the worst to remove.
> 
> But of course as we all know, 1 CYD of loose strewn about clothes and food is the same as a small entertainment center that can be removed in 2 minutes.


Cyprexx. They keep asking me to do more trashouts. I keep saying they need to double the flat rate price. We both keep saying no.


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## SwiftRes

Gypsos said:


> Cyprexx. They keep asking me to do more trashouts. I keep saying they need to double the flat rate price. We both keep saying no.


Interesting. Must just be highly competitive in your state.


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## Gypsos

SwiftRes said:


> Interesting. Must just be highly competitive in your state.


I thought that as well, but I was told by one of my coordinators that they are actually having trouble finding people willing to do it. And the ones who are doing it leave the place looking about as bad as it was when they started, just with less debris.


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## thanohano44

Gypsos said:


> I thought that as well, but I was told by one of my coordinators that they are actually having trouble finding people willing to do it. And the ones who are doing it leave the place looking about as bad as it was when they started, just with less debris.


They want a better product but. Not willing to pay for it?


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## Gypsos

thanohano44 said:


> They want a better product but. Not willing to pay for it?


That is the way it seems. The poor quality on the initial services have become such a big issue that they have formed a QA department to handle it. I have to send all my pics and descriptions of the issues to them now.


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## Guest

It would be so great if everyone could see all sides of this equation and look at the very big picture here.

I think the one big factor that no one is looking at is this: Your $60.00 per hour is charged to that homeowner who defaulted on the property and the courts uphold that liability. So if ( God Forbid I hope it never happens) you were to lose your home how would you feel getting that bill for $60.00 per hour because that is what some contractors felt they had to make?
It is like rubbing salt in the wounds. 
What I have recently learned by speaking with some HUD directors is, the banks have been ordered to keep the charges realistic and that is what has been causing many of the cuts in prices. Are they taking advantage ? Probably. 
I do know when you look at those circumstances,you can understand how that would effect anyone. It is a very bad scenerio no matter how you twist and turn it. People are on the losing end all the way around. Only the banks come out on top.


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## Guest

Gypsos said:


> Cyprexx. They keep asking me to do more trashouts. I keep saying they need to double the flat rate price. We both keep saying no.


Stick to your guns....they will be back.

We had same situation with FAS last year. They wanted us to do work, but pricing was sad. 45 initial lawns/35 recurring, $18 cyd/debris, $75/wints. Told them we could not do for that price. They stated other vendors would. Told them go with the others...

2 weeks ago, they sent us several work orders, with updated pricing. All work orders were QC declined orders from same vendor. They finally saw they were getting what they paid for.


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## thanohano44

barefootlc said:


> Stick to your guns....they will be back.
> 
> We had same situation with FAS last year. They wanted us to do work, but pricing was sad. 45 initial lawns/35 recurring, $18 cyd/debris, $75/wints. Told them we could not do for that price. They stated other vendors would. Told them go with the others...
> 
> 2 weeks ago, they sent us several work orders, with updated pricing. All work orders were QC declined orders from same vendor. They finally saw they were getting what they paid for.


Good job!!


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## Guest

Wow!! In 2009 all they were paying for a winterization was $75.00!
We thought we were making good money!!!

If any company wanted to just work with those prices today, they could probably get all the work they wanted. Back in 2008 gas was over $4.00 per hour also, and again, $75.00 for winterizing and that was before the 20% discount!! We made great money! Wow. I am shocked.... I really am!


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> It would be so great if everyone could see all sides of this equation and look at the very big picture here.
> 
> I think the one big factor that no one is looking at is this: Your $60.00 per hour is charged to that homeowner who defaulted on the property and the courts uphold that liability. So if ( God Forbid I hope it never happens) you were to lose your home how would you feel getting that bill for $60.00 per hour because that is what some contractors felt they had to make?
> It is like rubbing salt in the wounds.
> What I have recently learned by speaking with some HUD directors is, the banks have been ordered to keep the charges realistic and that is what has been causing many of the cuts in prices. Are they taking advantage ? Probably.
> I do know when you look at those circumstances,you can understand how that would effect anyone. It is a very bad scenerio no matter how you twist and turn it. People are on the losing end all the way around. Only the banks come out on top.


I truly feel for all the homeowners...made me sad to go into homes and see Christmas tree standing in corner. Knowing just weeks ago there was a family there.

But, I am not running a charity. My prices are fair. I am not trying to get rich...just trying to avoid having some vendor here trashing out my house.


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## GTX63

:thumbsup:


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## thanohano44

Beverly S said:


> Wow!! In 2009 all they were paying for a winterization was $75.00!
> We thought we were making good money!!!


I was making $150 per wint unit from FAS till 2010.


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## Guest

It was my understanding (from a local Keller Williams agent) that costs incurred from foreclosure were paid by bidder when property is auctioned off. IE...bank forecloses, has necessary services performed, 90% of properties are sold to investors/banks at auction and foreclosure costs are included there.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> It would be so great if everyone could see all sides of this equation and look at the very big picture here.
> 
> I think the one big factor that no one is looking at is this: Your $60.00 per hour is charged to that homeowner who defaulted on the property and the courts uphold that liability. So if ( God Forbid I hope it never happens) you were to lose your home how would you feel getting that bill for $60.00 per hour because that is what some contractors felt they had to make?
> It is like rubbing salt in the wounds.
> What I have recently learned by speaking with some HUD directors is, the banks have been ordered to keep the charges realistic and that is what has been causing many of the cuts in prices. Are they taking advantage ? Probably.
> I do know when you look at those circumstances,you can understand how that would effect anyone. It is a very bad scenerio no matter how you twist and turn it. People are on the losing end all the way around. Only the banks come out on top.








Your very last statement is 1000% correct.



What about the likes of CVMS and Pac Pres? They are both known for making 70% to 110% above what the contractor bids for jobs.
Thats not getting pushed back on the home owner, or if it is the banks are not pursuing the former loan signor because most of the time if it came down to a repossession they were broke any way.


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## BPWY

barefootlc said:


> Stick to your guns....they will be back.
> 
> We had same situation with FAS last year. They wanted us to do work, but pricing was sad. 45 initial lawns/35 recurring, $18 cyd/debris, $75/wints. Told them we could not do for that price. They stated other vendors would. Told them go with the others...
> 
> 2 weeks ago, they sent us several work orders, with updated pricing. All work orders were QC declined orders from same vendor. They finally saw they were getting what they paid for.







After my experiences with them in 2009 I didn't think it was possible there was that level of intellect at their offices.


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## thanohano44

BPWY said:


> Your very last statement is 1000% correct.
> 
> What about the likes of CVMS and Pac Pres? They are both known for making 70% to 110% above what the contractor bids for jobs.
> Thats not getting pushed back on the home owner, or if it is the banks are not pursuing the former loan signor because most of the time if it came down to a repossession they were broke any way.


PacPres and CVMS aren't real services, they're a regional who is a sub off of the nationals. 

All preservation costs are tacked onto the mortgage deficiency balance once the property is sold. The deficiency balance is then charged off to the previous owners credit report. They are also then sent a 1099 for that amount as earned income if their state laws prevent them from being pursued for the deficiency.


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## SwiftRes

Yes and typically if you lived there more than 2 out of 5 years and it's less than the cap, you do not have to pay taxes on "profits" or 1099'd income, from the sale of your personal residence. 



thanohano44 said:


> PacPres and CVMS aren't real services, they're a regional who is a sub off of the nationals.
> 
> All preservation costs are tacked onto the mortgage deficiency balance once the property is sold. The deficiency balance is then charged off to the previous owners credit report. They are also then sent a 1099 for that amount as earned income if their state laws prevent them from being pursued for the deficiency.


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## SwiftRes

$60 after discount for winterization is great money? Please explain the math on that.



Beverly S said:


> Wow!! In 2009 all they were paying for a winterization was $75.00!
> We thought we were making good money!!!
> 
> If any company wanted to just work with those prices today, they could probably get all the work they wanted. Back in 2008 gas was over $4.00 per hour also, and again, $75.00 for winterizing and that was before the 20% discount!! We made great money! Wow. I am shocked.... I really am!


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## Guest

I don't expect clear remarks from the poster. Poster's arguments to date:

Contractors need to form a nationwide union or a few contractors need to form a corporation to cover multiple states to get desired pay
Contractors need to be less greedy.


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## Guest

The math is simple, we went to a property.
We did all the work required on an initial.
When we left a property we had made the $1,000. dollars allowed on that property. That gentlemen, is how we made money!


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## BPWY

> $60 after discount for winterization is great money? Please explain the math on that.






In 1990 no doubt when the price of gas was under $1.


Now that its around $4 and expected to climb....... $120 or more wints would be a reasonable figure to expect in order to cover expenses and the necessary profit margin to remain in biz.

For most of use that don't live in an inner city and cover large counties driving 30 miles one way to a job is nothing. Driving 60 miles and more one way to a job is VERY common. Lets take the 30 mile figure for our example.
60 miles round trip, figure that a work truck is going to average 15 mpg, some better some worse depending on brand and engine. At yesterday's price for diesel I've already spent $15 JUST IN FUEL to go to the property and return back to home base. 
Add in $5 for one gallon of RV anti freeze and we're at $20. That leaves $40 left. Figure 30 mins each way for drive time. 1 hr for the wint time you unroll hoses, do the pressure test, the remaining work of labels and rolling the hose up. 30 mins back to the office. 2 hrs MINIMUM assuming you didn't have any issues finding the water shut off to the house and that it turned off easily by itself. By the time you do the office work of filling out the wint report, scanning that uploading the pics and filling out the online report is a bare min of another 30 mins. 
So that leaves $40 to divide by 2.5 hrs = $16 an hr for your time. That is an employee wage. We have not covered insurance, we have not covered vehicle wear and tear, we have not covered the expense of a compressor, hoses and fittings, we have not covered the expense of a computer, the expense of internet service.

A $60 wint is going back wards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No matter how you slice it.





Beverly I've defended you as your heart is in the wrong place but PLEASE educate yourself on the realities of 2012 before saying that the horrible prices being paid out in today's market are adequate. PLEASE
It makes it hard to defend you when its so glaringly obvious you have no clue what you are talking about. I'm not saying to stop posting. But don't say that today's prices are adequate.


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## Guest

Some contractors are just dense!
First of all, who in their right mind would take a work order for just a winterize??? 
If you are running around doing onesie twosie jobs, heck no wonder you don't make any money!!! 
We would never take an order for one part of an initial. Would NOT happen!! 
And we did rural areas as well. I did inspections 120 miles away, but I was organized and did them in groups on certain days of the week so they were profitable. 
P & P is only profitable if you are doing the entire work order! 
If they wanted a partial w/o done we simply told them to send it to their inferior contractors because we did not do partial runs ANYWHERE! I was NOT in business to send my crews 90 miles one way for $60.00 and they knew and understood that completely.
This came about because contractors decided they could just do trash outs and make a killing. By taking parts of that work order you showed the nationals how they could send several people to do just one thing at a time and they could make more profit on that system. There was NO such thing as a trash out business. You either did it all or none. the mess that exists today was created just as much by contractors as the nationals.
For the record I did state that in 2008 and 2009 we were still getting $75.00 to winterize and gas was over $4.00 a gallon in 2008.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> The math is simple, we went to a property.
> We did all the work required on an initial.
> When we left a property we had made the $1,000. dollars allowed on that property. That gentlemen, is how we made money!








That is not how its done today. Today you get initial services w/o that has you change one lock and do a wint.

You have to do a lot of those per day in a very small area in order to kinda make money.


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## SwiftRes

No you specifically said that $75 before 20% discount was good/great money in 2009 when gas prices were $4.00. Please elaborate on that math. I want to see if I am missing some key to my business that you may have. That would be very helpful.



Beverly S said:


> The math is simple, we went to a property.
> We did all the work required on an initial.
> When we left a property we had made the $1,000. dollars allowed on that property. That gentlemen, is how we made money!


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> Some contractors are just dense!









Perhaps you should leave the forum like you've suggested.


No longer am I going to defend you. 

Speaking of dense....... we all know who that applies to after I laid out the real costs of a $60 wint.


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## Gypsos

Beverly S said:


> The math is simple, we went to a property.
> We did all the work required on an initial.
> When we left a property we had made the $1,000. dollars allowed on that property. That gentlemen, is how we made money!


Seeing as how the only allowable I have ever seen is $25 for minor work to be done left by the previous contractor I would have to say it has changed a bit.


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> It would be so great if everyone could see all sides of this equation and look at the very big picture here.
> 
> I think the one big factor that no one is looking at is this: Your $60.00 per hour is charged to that homeowner who defaulted on the property and the courts uphold that liability. So if ( God Forbid I hope it never happens) you were to lose your home how would you feel getting that bill for $60.00 per hour because that is what some contractors felt they had to make?
> It is like rubbing salt in the wounds.
> What I have recently learned by speaking with some HUD directors is, the banks have been ordered to keep the charges realistic and that is what has been causing many of the cuts in prices. Are they taking advantage ? Probably.
> I do know when you look at those circumstances,you can understand how that would effect anyone. It is a very bad scenerio no matter how you twist and turn it. People are on the losing end all the way around. Only the banks come out on top.


With everything there is a cost. I'm sure the lawyer fees they receive far outweigh the trip charges. 
As for the realistic prices, I find most very unrealistic. For example, there is a large farm house. Located 2 stories above the porch roof (in poor condition) there is fascia missing. Bid is placed and work order received. Work order states, Bid approved at reduced rate per HUD cost estimator $12 before discount. There is nothing even remotely realistic about that!


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## Guest

BPWY said:


> That is not how its done today. Today you get initial services w/o that has you change one lock and do a wint.
> 
> You have to do a lot of those per day in a very small area in order to kinda make money.


Not to mention all the paperwork that goes along with the initials. The only money in initials is hoping your bids get approved somewhere down the road.


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## Guest

wow!! I am really beginning to see why the nationals hang the contractors out to dry on all these law suits. 
If you are working for safeguard, that pretty much says it all.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> Some contractors are just dense!
> First of all, who in their right mind would take a work order for just a winterize???
> If you are running around doing onesie twosie jobs, heck no wonder you don't make any money!!!
> We would never take an order for one part of an initial. Would NOT happen!!
> And we did rural areas as well. I did inspections 120 miles away, but I was organized and did them in groups on certain days of the week so they were profitable.
> P & P is only profitable if you are doing the entire work order!
> If they wanted a partial w/o done we simply told them to send it to their inferior contractors because we did not do partial runs ANYWHERE! I was NOT in business to send my crews 90 miles one way for $60.00 and they knew and understood that completely.
> This came about because contractors decided they could just do trash outs and make a killing. By taking parts of that work order you showed the nationals how they could send several people to do just one thing at a time and they could make more profit on that system. There was NO such thing as a trash out business. You either did it all or none. the mess that exists today was created just as much by contractors as the nationals.
> For the record I did state that in 2008 and 2009 we were still getting $75.00 to winterize and gas was over $4.00 a gallon in 2008.







Once again you're not understanding conditions on the ground in 2012.

These companies hold it over your head with a big stick that you do what they tell you to do or they'll give you no work. And back charge you the cost of sending another contractor to do your work.

Sure some of this may be the fault of contractors but in 2008 and on you have many people out of work that have no income and are desperate to take what ever they can find. This allows the greedy national pigs to drive the pay rate to contractors down and in the end it screws over the legit operating businesses.


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## Guest

I totally understand how the nationals could take advantage of the contractors once they were divided they were conquered. 

I keep telling all of you that to have any clout you have to have the power to shut down an entire state. If a few of you would just agree to band together you have clout! Where are they going to get contractors to cover say 30 work orders in a few short days? You are just NOT getting the jist of how this works. This industry did not change! The contractors changed! The mentality is completely different. 
The difference is we all knew we had to stay five steps ahead of the banks and everyone or they would get the upper hand and we'd all be working for nothing! Sure enough all the newbies came in and guess what? Everyone is now working for next to nothing. Why? you don't want to communicate and take a stand so you can make decent money. I don't know for sure but the last time I looked, peeing and moaning never solved a dam thing. It takes action. 
We were not afraid to shut down an entire state for a day or two and they knew that. Heck we would get a much needed vacation. 
Between myself and six other contractor companies in my state we had over 75 crews we could immobilize. and that does not even include who we knew in neighboring states. when you get a couple hundred work orders refused it will bring tears to their eyes and the managers to their knees. The field belongs to the contractors plain and simple. You made the choice to let it belong to the nationals. How do you think it is going to get better? Because none of the contractors want to do anything. So, what is the answer?


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## Guest

Admitted, this is petty of me but I am glad to see others are seeing the poster for what they are.


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## SwiftRes

Beverly,
It has nothing to do with taking "parts" of initials. If a home has the initial completed on it in August, the property still needs winterized down the line when it hits wintertime. As we all have probably experienced, we get a big group of wint orders right when wint season hits. 





Beverly S said:


> Some contractors are just dense!
> First of all, who in their right mind would take a work order for just a winterize???
> If you are running around doing onesie twosie jobs, heck no wonder you don't make any money!!!
> We would never take an order for one part of an initial. Would NOT happen!!
> And we did rural areas as well. I did inspections 120 miles away, but I was organized and did them in groups on certain days of the week so they were profitable.
> P & P is only profitable if you are doing the entire work order!
> If they wanted a partial w/o done we simply told them to send it to their inferior contractors because we did not do partial runs ANYWHERE! I was NOT in business to send my crews 90 miles one way for $60.00 and they knew and understood that completely.
> This came about because contractors decided they could just do trash outs and make a killing. By taking parts of that work order you showed the nationals how they could send several people to do just one thing at a time and they could make more profit on that system. There was NO such thing as a trash out business. You either did it all or none. the mess that exists today was created just as much by contractors as the nationals.
> For the record I did state that in 2008 and 2009 we were still getting $75.00 to winterize and gas was over $4.00 a gallon in 2008.


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## Guest

I got a volume of wint orders in 2010, but in 2011 I got very few. It was disappointing.


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## Guest

The only reason they can send a bunch of winterize orders is because they are allowed to do that! If they send ten in the same town no problem otherwise I would tell them to get in their car and head to the property and good luck.


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## Gypsos

Beverly S said:


> I totally understand how the nationals could take advantage of the contractors once they were divided they were conquered.
> 
> I keep telling all of you that to have any clout you have to have the power to shut down an entire state. If a few of you would just agree to band together you have clout! Where are they going to get contractors to cover say 30 work orders in a few short days? You are just NOT getting the jist of how this works. This industry did not change! The contractors changed! The mentality is completely different.
> The difference is we all knew we had to stay five steps ahead of the banks and everyone or they would get the upper hand and we'd all be working for nothing! Sure enough all the newbies came in and guess what? Everyone is now working for next to nothing. Why? you don't want to communicate and take a stand so you can make decent money. I don't know for sure but the last time I looked, peeing and moaning never solved a dam thing. It takes action.
> We were not afraid to shut down an entire state for a day or two and they knew that. Heck we would get a much needed vacation.
> Between myself and six other contractor companies in my state we had over 75 crews we could immobilize. and that does not even include who we knew in neighboring states. when you get a couple hundred work orders refused it will bring tears to their eyes and the managers to their knees. The field belongs to the contractors plain and simple. You made the choice to let it belong to the nationals. How do you think it is going to get better? Because none of the contractors want to do anything. So, what is the answer?


Just where do you propose we are to come up with the money do do this? And what happens when we say no and they fire us and use the next five guys in line? 

What you speak of doing is interesting but unrealistic. 

Once the economy turns around in about another five to ten years many of the people doing this will go back to a regular job and those who remain will have the abilit to demand higher prices because there will be less competition. 

Right now if I say know they say okay because they have a rolodex full of names of people willing to work for chump change. 

The simple fact is that in the current economic enviroment four or five companies banding together will only get those four or five companies replaced the next day.


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## BPWY

72opp said:


> I got a volume of wint orders in 2010, but in 2011 I got very few. It was disappointing.








Same here. 09 and 10 had a lot. 11 very few.


In fact I've probably not used 2 cases of RV anti freeze this winter.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> I totally understand how the nationals could take advantage of the contractors once they were divided they were conquered.
> 
> I keep telling all of you that to have any clout you have to have the power to shut down an entire state. If a few of you would just agree to band together you have clout! Where are they going to get contractors to cover say 30 work orders in a few short days? You are just NOT getting the jist of how this works. This industry did not change! The contractors changed! The mentality is completely different.
> The difference is we all knew we had to stay five steps ahead of the banks and everyone or they would get the upper hand and we'd all be working for nothing! Sure enough all the newbies came in and guess what? Everyone is now working for next to nothing. Why? you don't want to communicate and take a stand so you can make decent money. I don't know for sure but the last time I looked, peeing and moaning never solved a dam thing. It takes action.
> We were not afraid to shut down an entire state for a day or two and they knew that. Heck we would get a much needed vacation.
> Between myself and six other contractor companies in my state we had over 75 crews we could immobilize. and that does not even include who we knew in neighboring states. when you get a couple hundred work orders refused it will bring tears to their eyes and the managers to their knees. The field belongs to the contractors plain and simple. You made the choice to let it belong to the nationals. How do you think it is going to get better? Because none of the contractors want to do anything. So, what is the answer?






Whats changed from then to 2012 is that millions of folks are with out work. They think that because they have a 4hp lawn mower. A 2 gallon electric compressor and a hatch back car they are a contractor. 

When these companies advertise on Craigslist and the desperate take the work there is absolutely no value on the legit contractors shutting down. Only thing that does is cost us money.
You have to understand that 2012 is not what it was 10 years ago before the market crashed and no body had work at their other jobs.
When you finally see this industry for what it is in 2012 you'll understand why so many of us are frustrated at the current way of operations. And why so many 10 and 15 yr veterans are leaving.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> The only reason they can send a bunch of winterize orders is because they are allowed to do that! If they send ten in the same town no problem otherwise I would tell them to get in their car and head to the property and good luck.








Like I said before while you were calling me dense and probably didn't read it is that you can do this.


They tell you that you either do what they tell you to do when they tell you to do it or they'll get another contractor and back charge you what ever they want to cover the other contractor's pay out. 

Crock of sh*t????????? You bet. 


But that is the reality of 2012 you have yet to comprehend.

Because there are so many guys out of their regular job they have no shortage of "contractors" they can draw from.


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## thanohano44

Beverly S said:


> The only reason they can send a bunch of winterize orders is because they are allowed to do that! If they send ten in the same town no problem otherwise I would tell them to get in their car and head to the property and good luck.


Beverly,

Don you remember the topics of the serving convention in which we met at in 2007?

In which the banks wanted you contractors to take on the assets as if it were your own and cradle to grave servicing would be the name of the game for the top providers? This was to allow the contractors to make all the marketing decisions to speed up the sales process and increase profits. 

Since that time many nationals came in and took off with that notion. Tripling their contractor bids when submitting for extra funding for a property etc. then second bid requirements. HUD ML changes etc etc. now the (regionals)subs of the nationals are doing the same. 

This whole business has gone through the silo effect. Doing more with less. Nationals have offered to take on the processing of a lot of the work. They staff up their call centers and offices so the banks don't have to. Regionals come in and do the same for the nationals if they're given the right amount of volume. The bank lays off their staff or reallocated them to other dept or subsidiaries. They save on severance packages and can save of building expenses. That's more profit for them. 

I know that the broker/AM relationships are huge in this industry. When brokers fees were cut, they refuses to do all of the work and take on a majority of the properties. The nationals streamlined a lot of the back end paper work most contractors don't know about. 

The main issue here is the money the banks are willing to pay out to brokers and contractors.


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## mtmtnman

Lik BP said distance figures in to margin. Hell i am 100 miles from the next bigger town!!! I average 150 lawns bi weekly for 6 different companies in the summer and travel near 2500 miles to do this! I COULD NOT afford to work for any one company as foreclosures are too spread out here. For example, i drove 190 miles yesterday for 5 HUD routine inspections and a small broker job. I called all 3 contractors that work this area and none had any work there. After fuel and without the broker job i put $75 in my pocket for 5 hours of driving. Now i have an hour of uploads. There WILL NOT be many lawns cut this summer with $5.00 gas as predicted. NONE of these remote inspections will be done either!! I have set up 5 contractors throughout western Montana and have made good relationships with 2 others. Even though i am well connected in the state, the lack of volume and distances kill me.


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## Guest

BPWY, I was most definitely NOT calling YOU dense. Please do not think that at all. I apologize if that was the impression I gave in anyway.
I was simply stating some of the contractors are in fact dense. They will take any part of any work order and for any distance.They will work for nothing just to keep a job from someone else, many do not even know what they are suppose to be doing, and there is some really shoddy work going on by some of new contractors that you would not believe. When you say anything about it they will tell you they know all about this work. To me that is dense.
So now the nationals are claiming they take total servicing for the lifetime of that foreclosure? There is no way that can be feasible for a national, unless they have contractors willing and able to commit to that situation.
You are right, we would have to do the bidding and approve all the bidding as well, but it would have put us all out to dry if there were any issues with the banks. As long as the nationals are the middllemen we would get screwed and we knew that. In fact some of us did take the work directly from the smaller banks and took full responsibility without any middleman. That was good money but big headaches also.
The nationals are tripling these bids on their properties? 
Wow, how can the contractors work that way? They won't even know what they are liable for. That dollar amount becomes the contractor liability if there are any issues. Was this the beginning of these famous chargebacks I am reading so much about? Are they in fact using bogus chargebacks to offset the liabilities of their own bad choices? I admit, now I am confused!


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> The nationals are tripling these bids on their properties?
> Wow, how can the contractors work that way? They won't even know what they are liable for. That dollar amount becomes the contractor liability if there are any issues. Was this the beginning of these famous chargebacks I am reading so much about? Are they in fact using bogus chargebacks to offset the liabilities of their own bad choices? I admit, now I am confused!





Apology accepted.



Now you are understand some of the confusion we work with.

I'm hoping Fremont can chime in with comments on the charge backs.
I think he worked enough volume over the years to comment on the charge backs he got.


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## Guest

What I want to know Beverly is this...
If banding together would fix all these problems( which may work), then why did you " see the writing on the wall" and get out. Why not band together and fix it like your suggesting us do? Just a thought.


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## Guest

While I was in the industry as a contractor, we did band together. We could not have made the money we did if we had not.We were considered a secret society because we were so close.

In fact we stuck together and networked from the beginning, we had to, for survival for many years. Back in 2007 they were trying to pull some slick moves on us then and we contractors just got tighter so none of us would put our heads in the noose of being totally responsible for properties.
We always networked and we always knew what was going on, so in 2009 and 2010 many, many of us old veterans decided it was time to get out while the getting was still profitable. 

At that time there were contractors coming out of the woodwork and anyone with a truck and a broom thought they could make a killing in this industry. That was about the same time that all the "trash out" gurus started advertising how you could make thousands a day just cleaning out these foreclosures. Anyone and his brother or brother in law was up for making all this "big " money. We had people charging contractors to be members of websites and they themselves had never done any property preservation and instead were raking inspectors over the coals. 
We had everyone trying to "certify" contractors when no one has that authority, it was becoming a wild, wild west. It was crazy! 

The nationals were starting to ask us to go to the properties some of these" cowboys" had already worked at and what we saw was enough to convince us we did not want any part of the shoddy work or responsibility. 
We knew that was exactly what the nationals were wanting to do. They were going to pay cheap labor and have shoddy fly by nights make feeble attempts at completing work orders , then send us professional contractors in at a reduced rate to fix everything and if we went to a property and fixed even one thing we would be last man on that property and fully responsible for all the damages and incomplete or shoddy work because it has always been that the last man on the property takes the responsibility to date. That never changed.
That would have put us in a position that we had to work twice as hard for less than half of what we would have gotten to start with.

We tried to network with the new guys and let them know they should learn about doing this work or they could really get burned, but they all had the attitude that they knew everything and networking was out of the question for any of them. that is when we discovered many of them were using pink Kool aid to winterize or make it look like they did. 
We would have been sitting ducks, because the nationals knew full well what those guys were doing and just thought they would pass it on to us. 

At that point many of us looked at each other and decided to have a meeting in Iowa. We talked about it and most of us decided to sell out, a few stayed behind but I understand they did not stay for long.
At that time there were 26 large contractors over Missouri, Kansas, Illinois, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas , Nebraska and Colorado that got out all at about the same time from Dec 2009 till may 2010. We all tried to stay a bit active and reach out to help some of the others , but it got real bad, real fast. 

We were all glad we got out when we did. Everyone of us most likely would go back, if this industry ever gets cleaned up. 

It has a great future for Rental maintenance and that will most likely be the next big real estate pot of gold if you will. But only if all the management companies go by the wayside. 
The portfolio companies are not bad to deal with and several of us are watching the deal with Cashel USA and Property Access to see where that goes. It could be the next wave of the future.
The few good contractors in the industry today are in too far to just walk away, so you would have to protect your own assets and make the profit you need to come out. That is why I say Band together, Many of you are owed tens of thousand and that is not amounts that you just walk away from.


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## Guest

Brothers and Sisters in arms. A single voice is less likely to be heard, yet a thousand voices gets attention real fast.


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## Guest

We don't accomplish anything in this world alone ... and whatever happens is the result of the whole tapestry of one's life and all the weavings of individual threads from one to another that creates something. - Sandra Day O'Conner


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## Guest

Beverly S said:


> Some contractors are just dense!
> First of all, who in their right mind would take a work order for just a winterize???
> If you are running around doing onesie twosie jobs, heck no wonder you don't make any money!!!
> We would never take an order for one part of an initial. Would NOT happen!!
> And we did rural areas as well. I did inspections 120 miles away, but I was organized and did them in groups on certain days of the week so they were profitable.
> P & P is only profitable if you are doing the entire work order!
> If they wanted a partial w/o done we simply told them to send it to their inferior contractors because we did not do partial runs ANYWHERE! I was NOT in business to send my crews 90 miles one way for $60.00 and they knew and understood that completely.
> This came about because contractors decided they could just do trash outs and make a killing. By taking parts of that work order you showed the nationals how they could send several people to do just one thing at a time and they could make more profit on that system. There was NO such thing as a trash out business. You either did it all or none. the mess that exists today was created just as much by contractors as the nationals.
> For the record I did state that in 2008 and 2009 we were still getting $75.00 to winterize and gas was over $4.00 a gallon in 2008.


Work orders don't come "complete" anymore.
99% of the time we are sent out to a property to secure and winterize. Most times it is pre forclosure, change one lock on back door, do wint, take photos, board ups, bid hazards, do initial lawn if within allowable.

Then, we continue to maintain lawn until we are notified that property is "fully bank owned", then we are sent back to take updated photos and submit updated bid for services ( I do charge for bids, stating it will be deducted from invoice if we receive the job).

If bid is accepted we go back and do debris, janitorial, shrubs and bid any rehab work.

The only jobs we get that are the full boat from the get-go are our direct to agent jobs.


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## Guest

Contractors who are on properties before they have gone to auction, are totally and completely liable for any and all contents and /or damages to that property. Hence the reason many are requiring E & O insurance. You become a sitting duck so to speak. Talk to any of these bitter home owners, they always left a Picasso painting their great aunt gave them in that house or a collection of antiques or their grandmother's five karat diamond ring and the contractors always steal these things. Everyone knows that. I see these cases all the time and they are becoming more frequent with each passing year.
The contractors are hung out to dry by the nationals and the banks.
They are essentially on their own, and the indignant nationals will fire them because they were thieves and of course the national had NO idea. The nationals will tell the Judge they depend on the contractors to tell them a property is occupied. They are not responsible if that contractor did an illegal lockout when he knew there were personals in that property. See Federal court sees it as, if there is so much as a sock on the floor , then there are personals in that home.
So here this poor guy is sitting in the hot seat for personals that never existed from a home he had NO right to enter and he is either getting sued for everything he has or everything he ever gets. Wow!! Don't you get a bad feeling , like you might be getting set up by that national?


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## Guest

Beverly,

I agree with the last several posts. As a EX "semi-large" contractor servicing 5 MidWest States and SC/GA in the early 2000-2005 time frame we saw the writing on the wall. Downsized throughout the 2006-2011 till we finally quit all Nationals on Nov 2011. 

What needs to be understood is that this was all planned. These battleplans were known years ago and was shared to some...fortunately I was warned what was coming down by some very knowledgable and connected individuals. Funny how it happened with a phone call from a Lear Jet asking if I was available to be picked up... I wasn't passing up that opportunity.

Was or is this a grand conspiracy? Heck I don't know. 

All I know is that all the "big players" from the late 90's and throughout the 00's are either not involved or sold out OR sitting on the sidelines in the P&P business. As the business sits right NOW there is no profit or the imaginary profit that can/will be taken away when the next chargeback or lawsuit hits. 

IMO The next big Profit Center for the P&P contractor is the auditing side of the business. Guess what? Trying to find those next contractor chargeback/subrogation claims is where the next step in the Grand Conspiracy is leading......


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## Guest

That makes sense when you consider how many ads there are for commercial and contractor insurance audits there being posted all over the place. 
i count my blessings I knew some b-i-i-g Realtors and bankers or I would probably be right here where many of you are now. It is bad enough they insult the contractor's intelligence having them do all their dirty work for nickels on the dollar, but when they start devising ways to make further profits to get those nickels plus back in their own coffers it is time to figure out it has come down to US or Them!


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## RichR

FremontREO said:


> IMO The next big Profit Center for the P&P contractor is the auditing side of the business. Guess what? Trying to find those next contractor chargeback/subrogation claims is where the next step in the Grand Conspiracy is leading......


What do you mean by this?


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## Guest

It means NOT GOOD for any contractor that didn't Cover His @$$. 






RichR said:


> What do you mean by this?


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## Guest

It simply means they can go back and audit every single property any contractor has done and if they find anything questionable not only can they back charge but HUD can also fine you. If you don't have the photos or documented proof... well, let's just say you lose, they win.
You are required to keep all the photos and work orders on each property for 7 years. we always put everything on CD plus back up hard copies in storage boxes. 
That ruling was in a Mortgagee letter I believe in the very early part of the 2000's. Just another way to go back and screw over the contractors who do not know what is really going on.


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## Guest

In simple language that means " Get out your vasoline and bend over and grab your ankles" The biggest screwing of them all is coming down the pike.
As the Government and the courts put the squeeze on the banks, the banks will put the squeeze on the contractors. That is logical. Gotta make that money up somewhere right? 
Those banks are NOT going to take any losses, they will retaliate you can just bet on that .


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## Guest

Heads up from a lawyer friend for 2013......

If you go into a house where 4 or more of those pigtail/spiral type lightbulbs (Compact Flourescent Lights) are broken then there has to be a hazmat team come and dispose of all contents, carpets and do the mercury cleanup. There is very little mercury in the bulbs but when there are 4 broken bulbs there is a trigger amount of hazard. Note: Congress did not pass any funding for enforcement of the Energy Independence Act so who will regulate this????

Lawyers.

Now I know what everyone is going to say "how in the heck will *** service company know if there are any broken CFL bulbs?"
If you the contractor don't know who all has been in the house is it worth the risk of not reporting this and requiring a hazmat team? NO. Will the Service Company let you hire a hazmat team? NO They will keep passing the buck till someone does the work and then come back later as breaking federal regulations under the Energy Independence and Security Act. 

This business is not what it seems...... 

Audit business? In short it is exactly what Beverly said. The Banks/Service Companies are actively hiring Auditors to go through the "books" AND to go into the houses.


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## thanohano44

FremontREO said:


> Heads up from a lawyer friend for 2013......
> 
> If you go into a house where 4 or more of those pigtail/spiral type lightbulbs (Compact Flourescent Lights) are broken then there has to be a hazmat team come and dispose of all contents, carpets and do the mercury cleanup. There is very little mercury in the bulbs but when there are 4 broken bulbs there is a trigger amount of hazard. Note: Congress did not pass any funding for enforcement of the Energy Independence Act so who will regulate this????
> 
> Lawyers.
> 
> Now I know what everyone is going to say "how in the heck will *** service company know if there are any broken CFL bulbs?"
> If you the contractor don't know who all has been in the house is it worth the risk of not reporting this and requiring a hazmat team? NO. Will the Service Company let you hire a hazmat team? NO They will keep passing the buck till someone does the work and then come back later as breaking federal regulations under the Energy Independence and Security Act.
> 
> This business is not what it seems......
> 
> Audit business? In short it is exactly what Beverly said. The Banks/Service Companies are actively hiring Auditors to go through the "books" AND to go into the houses.


Can I at least pick the tree they want to hang me from?


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## Guest

I don't do property preservation so if this is a dumb question oh well..
How do you guys let your customer tell you what they will pay and let them take the money they paid you back? And still make a profit? Sounds insane to me.


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## Guest

summithomeinc said:


> I don't do property preservation so if this is a dumb question oh well..
> How do you guys let your customer tell you what they will pay and let them take the money they paid you back? And still make a profit? Sounds insane to me.


It is insanity


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> In simple language that means " Get out your vasoline and bend over and grab your ankles" The biggest screwing of them all is coming down the pike.
> As the Government and the courts put the squeeze on the banks, the banks will put the squeeze on the contractors. That is logical. Gotta make that money up somewhere right?
> Those banks are NOT going to take any losses, they will retaliate you can just bet on that .







I want to know, but I am certain I'll never know the answer in my life time............


Are all these ALLEGED charge backs actually coming from either the banks or HUD/FNMA or are these nats using that as just one more way to pad their bottom line????????????????????



Reason I ask has a couple legs......... 1. I've been suspicious for a long time.

2. true story.......... Back in '10 I had a $900 charge back from a well known nat for screwing contractors. Allegedly the photos didn't support the work done (debris removal) and they were going to back charge me the entire w/o. I protested and had them do a formal investigation. 3 weeks later the conclusion was that their original finding still stood and that I'd be $900 short on my next pay check(s).

Well old BPWY aint as dumb as he looks. Since it had been 45 days since getting a job from them I was fully paid up and sent them a very polite "go F yourself" email.
Couple days go by and I get an email from my coordinator stating that she had just found out about this and that she was going to look into it. I had always had a good relationship with the coordinator. By the end of the day she sent me another email stating that she had gotten to the bottom of the mess, no charge back was forth coming and that would I PRETTY SPECIAL PLEASE JUST FOR HER reconsider working for them again.

I still do a few jobs for them and thanks to the work they gave me thru last winter I was able to cash money $10,000 for lawn equipment that is still benefiting my biz in a big way this year. 2012 looks to be an outstanding year for my lawn biz. This would not be possible had it not been for the solid footing I was able to get last year.



So after reading my #2 point, I ask again........... ARE WE SURE that these charge backs are coming from the banks/HUD/FNMA or the nation companies????????????????????????????????????????


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## Guest

Let me post a excerpt from a letter that explains why houses that are going to HUD is gettting Whacked so hard on chargebacks and lawsuits. Basically putting the "lipstick on the pig" that the Service Companies DEMAND is coming back to haunt the contractors that did NOT have the backbone to say NO or didn't care. 

*Consumers BenefitFrom Major Home Inspection Legislation* 

When President Obama signs the major financial reform bill,consumers will benefit from the section on HUD homeinspection counseling that will add home inspection to the HUD housingcounseling program, in a big way.  

HUD will be enlisted to do the following: 

Ø Activelyadvise homebuyers across the country to obtain home inspections as a keyelement of buying a house

Ø Tellbuyers that obtaining a home inspection is a decision they need to make, andshould make 

Ø Tellbuyers what professional characteristics to look for in a home inspector, andwhere and how to find one 

Ø Ensurethat homebuyers reached by the HUD counseling programs consider obtaining ahome inspection as early as possible in the process -- when home inspections have the greatestutility to homebuyers. 

Ø Developnew documents and training materials both for training HUD counselors and fordistribution to the buyers they counsel 

Ø Makeall of these messages available to all homebuyers regardless of whether theyfinance using government-backed programs or private sector lending. 

Ø Thisnational de facto marketing effort will be conducted under the authority, funding and staffing resources of HUD.


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## BPWY

summithomeinc said:


> I don't do property preservation so if this is a dumb question oh well..
> How do you guys let your customer tell you what they will pay and let them take the money they paid you back? And still make a profit? Sounds insane to me.





FremontREO said:


> It is insanity










What he said. :thumbsup:




At the same time you have guys that maybe were in the industry for a long time before it got to this point or guys that are desperate to feed their family and not have the locks changed on their own house.


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## Guest

ummm, they don't exactly LET them , the nationals just have this sort of " lottery " System where the contractor who actually gets paid feels as though he has won this one time,and no one knows what they really have won until the payment is received. So, if they get a charge back they win nothing and have to pay more.
Yes, it is a very ingeniously designed insanity to make all the contractors lose their minds, business, homes, everything they ever worked for and in some extreme cases their lives. But, wasn't that the grand plan by the banks and Merrill Lynch when this all started???


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## BPWY

FremontREO said:


> Let me post a excerpt from a letter that explains why houses that are going to HUD is gettting Whacked so hard on chargebacks and lawsuits. Basically putting the "lipstick on the pig" that the Service Companies DEMAND is coming back to haunt the contractors that did NOT have the backbone to say NO or didn't care.
> 
> *Consumers BenefitFrom Major Home Inspection Legislation*
> 
> When President Obama signs the major financial reform bill,consumers will benefit from the section on HUD homeinspection counseling that will add home inspection to the HUD housingcounseling program, in a big way.
> 
> HUD will be enlisted to do the following:
> 
> Ø Activelyadvise homebuyers across the country to obtain home inspections as a keyelement of buying a house
> 
> Ø Tellbuyers that obtaining a home inspection is a decision they need to make, andshould make
> 
> Ø Tellbuyers what professional characteristics to look for in a home inspector, andwhere and how to find one
> 
> Ø Ensurethat homebuyers reached by the HUD counseling programs consider obtaining ahome inspection as early as possible in the process -- when home inspections have the greatestutility to homebuyers.
> 
> Ø Developnew documents and training materials both for training HUD counselors and fordistribution to the buyers they counsel
> 
> Ø Makeall of these messages available to all homebuyers regardless of whether theyfinance using government-backed programs or private sector lending.
> 
> Ø Thisnational de facto marketing effort will be conducted under the authority, funding and staffing resources of HUD.









In my defense.................... we bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid............................






















































and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid






















































and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid



























































and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid, and bid..................... and 0.0% of the bids get approved.


Get the point yet?
Fremont I know you know the routine well.


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## BPWY

Beverly S said:


> ummm, they don't exactly LET them , the nationals just have this sort of " lottery " System where the contractor who actually gets paid feels as though he has won this one time,and no one knows what they really have won until the payment is received. So, if they get a charge back they win nothing and have to pay more.
> Yes, it is a very ingeniously designed insanity to make all the contractors lose their minds, business, homes, everything they ever worked for and in some extreme cases their lives. But, wasn't that the grand plan by the banks and Merrill Lynch when this all started???




:thumbsup:





Keep this up Beverly and I just might have to admit you are beginning to understand the business as its become in modern times.


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## Guest

That was like giving written permission to the Nationals to ask for audits so they could bleed the contractors, and just think it is all sanctioned by the Federal agency called HUD.


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## Guest

Thanks for convincing me to never agree to do property preservation. I have gotten a call from a couple companies asking if I could go bid some work. No thanks, I'm busy.


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## Guest

If they approve the bids. they would not have a way to ascertain the properties fail the audits. Makes sense.

BPWY, I may not be up to par on the P & P activities in 2012, but I have always kept up to date on Real Estate matters, I have to to keep my broker's . I am fully aware of what is going on with HUD and all the Housing grants out there. I guess I was just Naive enough to think the nationals would not get that dirty. I admit I was wrong in that thinking! 
Wow! We got out because we saw the writing on the wall, but never thought for a moment that contractors would be in the middle of all the cross fire. This is really a bad situation for any contractor in P & P. You are Damned if you do and damned if you don't!


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## Guest

The crazy bid process has me puzzled. i can see that to aprove a bid would defeat their audit process, but why keep asking the contractors to continue to bid??? 
That is redundant and just creates useless work for their own office staff.
There has to be a method to that particular madness, but what?


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## mtmtnman

thanohano44 said:


> Can I at least pick the tree they want to hang me from?


I had to read that 3X to make sure i was reading it right knowing you stance!!!!


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## thanohano44

mtmtnman said:


> I had to read that 3X to make sure i was reading it right knowing you stance!!!!


Lol. Euthanasia, death with dignity. They're basically telling us how they're going to take us out. I just wanted to pick the perfect tree they will hang me from. Lol


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## SwiftRes

Man you guys are depressing me.


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## Guest

For the area that we currently service, we have seen a significant decline in work, and that was with 2 companies with the initials FAS and SG. 
Who else is currently looking?
Are they HUD, Fannie, Freddie?

It has become more difficult to break even with the changing of the game by nationals.


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## Guest

I am a newer vendor to Cyprexx and I have been trying to find a local vendor to vent to!! I do initial services not mait. I work hard to make sure my properties are as close to perfect when I leave, but I would love to be on the QA side. My coord calls me on a regular basis to take care of other vendors BSO issues BC they cannot seem to ge it right after the third time. I love this business, just wish I knew the ins and outs a little better. Maybe we could chat


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## JFMURFY

smmarques1 said:


> I am a newer vendor to Cyprexx and I have been trying to find a local vendor to vent to!! I do initial services not mait. I work hard to make sure my properties are as close to perfect when I leave, but I would love to be on the QA side. My coord calls me on a regular basis to take care of other vendors BSO issues BC they cannot seem to ge it right after the third time. I love this business, just wish I knew the ins and outs a little better. Maybe we could chat


The in's and out area simple... find work, an make money doing... by any means necessary.


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## Guest

BPWY said:


> I want to know, but I am certain I'll never know the answer in my life time............
> 
> 
> Are all these ALLEGED charge backs actually coming from either the banks or HUD/FNMA or are these nats using that as just one more way to pad their bottom line????????????????????
> 
> 
> 
> Reason I ask has a couple legs......... 1. I've been suspicious for a long time.
> 
> 2. true story.......... Back in '10 I had a $900 charge back from a well known nat for screwing contractors. Allegedly the photos didn't support the work done (debris removal) and they were going to back charge me the entire w/o. I protested and had them do a formal investigation. 3 weeks later the conclusion was that their original finding still stood and that I'd be $900 short on my next pay check(s).
> 
> Well old BPWY aint as dumb as he looks. Since it had been 45 days since getting a job from them I was fully paid up and sent them a very polite "go F yourself" email.
> Couple days go by and I get an email from my coordinator stating that she had just found out about this and that she was going to look into it. I had always had a good relationship with the coordinator. By the end of the day she sent me another email stating that she had gotten to the bottom of the mess, no charge back was forth coming and that would I PRETTY SPECIAL PLEASE JUST FOR HER reconsider working for them again.
> 
> I still do a few jobs for them and thanks to the work they gave me thru last winter I was able to cash money $10,000 for lawn equipment that is still benefiting my biz in a big way this year. 2012 looks to be an outstanding year for my lawn biz. This would not be possible had it not been for the solid footing I was able to get last year.
> 
> 
> 
> So after reading my #2 point, I ask again........... ARE WE SURE that these charge backs are coming from the banks/HUD/FNMA or the nation companies????????????????????????????????????????


You cut hay for the Manning Ranch ?


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## Guest

Well of course!! There is always money to be made, but why it has to be so difficult is beyond me!! I am a two man crew and I run around like a crazy person all day everyday.. 7 days a week. Not asking for the family secrets just a hard working girl trying to make it in this business and provide. For the first few months I made a lot of $$ but then coord changed and prices changed. I never take the easy way out. I work hard and I would love to talk to another vendor and share thoughts.


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## SwiftRes

That's Cyprexx for you. VERY rep specific. It seems like each rep has an entirely different set of QC guidelines, pay scale, responsiveness, etc. And they change about every 6 months.



smmarques1 said:


> Well of course!! There is always money to be made, but why it has to be so difficult is beyond me!! I am a two man crew and I run around like a crazy person all day everyday.. 7 days a week. Not asking for the family secrets just a hard working girl trying to make it in this business and provide. For the first few months I made a lot of $$ but then coord changed and prices changed. I never take the easy way out. I work hard and I would love to talk to another vendor and share thoughts.


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## Guest

I really do not have many issues with them at all and I enjoy the hard work and the money, but I can't seem to wrap my head around working on one property and making X amount of dollars in an hour and then turning around and spending 8 hours on another and making the same amount. Take the good with the bad.. I know, I know. One property will pay to change bulbs and switch plates and the next will not due to no debris. I have worked for brokers and banks for years, but the business was up and down ans with Cyprexx it seems to be steady so far. No real complaints just nice knowing and hearing other stories I guess. No real training.. just get it done.


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## BPWY

XLARGEX said:


> You cut hay for the Manning Ranch ?







No, where are they out of?




I haven't cut much hay since 95.


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## Guest

smmarques1 said:


> I really do not have many issues with them at all and I enjoy the hard work and the money, but I can't seem to wrap my head around working on one property and making X amount of dollars in an hour and then turning around and spending 8 hours on another and making the same amount. Take the good with the bad.. I know, I know. One property will pay to change bulbs and switch plates and the next will not due to no debris. I have worked for brokers and banks for years, but the business was up and down ans with Cyprexx it seems to be steady so far. No real complaints just nice knowing and hearing other stories I guess. No real training.. just get it done.


I have been working along side the nationals since 2000. We started with SafeGaurd and worked our way around quite a few others-FAS, REO allegiance, Trinity, Spectrum, US Best, AIM.

Out of all of them SafeGuard was canned because their "photos do not support the CYD amount-FAS because they started wanting more for less, and I mean alot more-Spectrum has become somewhat a middleman now and sent out a letter stating all rpices were going down not up-US Best wanted you to call from every site regardless of what was being done and if a certain party was not available they would want you to wait with your hand on your ass @ the property till they could find that person-AIM I just fought with constantly because they wanted to:jester:

Years ago there was money to be made, but no there are SO MANY middlemen companies any kind of money has been sucked dry-I would not doubt it if they expected you to do most everything for free if they have not asked all ready.

There really is no money to be made with nationals anymore-those new to the chase I am very sorry to be playing prophet of doom, but eh, sometimes reality sucks.

Luckily we found a nitch.


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## Gypsos

smmarques1 said:


> I am a newer vendor to Cyprexx and I have been trying to find a local vendor to vent to!! I do initial services not mait. I work hard to make sure my properties are as close to perfect when I leave, but I would love to be on the QA side. My coord calls me on a regular basis to take care of other vendors BSO issues BC they cannot seem to ge it right after the third time. I love this business, just wish I knew the ins and outs a little better. Maybe we could chat


I have been working for Cyprexx for a couple of years now in Volusia county. I have done initals and now only do maintenance. 

I started in Sanford a month ago. The rep in Sanford is annoying me and I may drop all 20 or so properties there any day now. 

I have been sending in the exact same picture routine for the last 2 years without a problem and suddenly she wants more than everyone else. I have only had 3 call backs... ever. I think I got this figured out. 

She needs to see more action shots. I am a one man band and if I take just two more action shots at each propoerty the time it consumes reduces by one the number of properties I can do each day. That works out to several hundred dollars a month in revenues. 

I ain't giving up that much time or money. She and I gonna have a come to Jesus meeting real soon. 

I know for a fact they need an initals vendor in Volusia county that can get it right the first time. If you are interested PM me and I will gladly introduce you to the initials coordinator for this. She is actually quite easy to work with.

Currently about 70% of my newly assigned properties are not ready for routine maintenance by any stretch of the imagination. Cyprexx has even formed a QA task force to handle the problem.


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## Guest

BPWY said:


> No, where are they out of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't cut much hay since 95.


In Lost Springs they have like 100k acres or so and some friends hunt there every year


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## reoguys

One reason for the continuous bidding may be so that they get the highest bid and then deduct it from the mortgage insurance claim that has to be paid ... on loans with mortgage insurance the banks get paid for a percentage of 1) the loan or 2) the value, whichever is less, MINUS repairs. So, depending on who's ordering the bids ... the mortgage insurance company wants high bids, the client wants low bids. Neither have any intention of awarding any work. This is the proverbial "carrot".


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## BPWY

reoguys said:


> So, depending on who's ordering the bids ... the mortgage insurance company wants high bids, the client wants low bids. *Neither have any intention of awarding any work.* This is the proverbial "carrot".






And this is why the trades have quit giving free bids for bank owned properties.


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## Guest

Gypsos said:


> I have been working for Cyprexx for a couple of years now in Volusia county. I have done initals and now only do maintenance.
> 
> I started in Sanford a month ago. The rep in Sanford is annoying me and I may drop all 20 or so properties there any day now.
> 
> I have been sending in the exact same picture routine for the last 2 years without a problem and suddenly she wants more than everyone else. I have only had 3 call backs... ever. I think I got this figured out.
> 
> She needs to see more action shots. I am a one man band and if I take just two more action shots at each propoerty the time it consumes reduces by one the number of properties I can do each day. That works out to several hundred dollars a month in revenues.
> 
> I ain't giving up that much time or money. She and I gonna have a come to Jesus meeting real soon.
> 
> I know for a fact they need an initals vendor in Volusia county that can get it right the first time. If you are interested PM me and I will gladly introduce you to the initials coordinator for this. She is actually quite easy to work with.
> 
> Currently about 70% of my newly assigned properties are not ready for routine maintenance by any stretch of the imagination. Cyprexx has even formed a QA task force to handle the problem.


I running into the same problem,I guess inirial contractor thinks one one is coming behind them. Cyprexx is only paying $25 on maids any one getting more.


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## BPWY

I had a lot of this BS from FAS back in 09.
They never approved any of my bids to do the job right.





> Currently about 70% of my newly assigned properties are not ready for routine maintenance by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Guest

*It just doesn't pay*

Working for AMS, decent pay with volume then coordinator changes and prices drop I think well ok still got volume and we are making a profit. Couple months later we are told toilet cleaning on routines is free and part of the routine when we were getting $25 - $50, we bitch they say its in the contract you negotiated I say negotiated? When did that happen since no one ever said we were they just said take it or leave it. 
Months go by or load dwindles from over a hundred to around 20 then I call and the 5th state rep says well call me mon wed and fri and I’ll give you all the new in your area. 
Present day 1 year total time 6th rep says yes those leaves didn’t get done on initial that someone else did but since you have been there twice its your problem clean it up for free. Two weeks go by I ignore it hoping it will go away and now it did we have rep # 7, 
a week in with rep 7 (from calling rep 5 we are back up to 75 + routines) I’m thinking I carried these bastards thru the winter cleaned toilets and other stuff for free got a 98% QC score, all our work is on time, can’t wait just a couple more weeks and its yard care season. Two days ago I’m getting a route together hit refresh button and all but 5 routines are gone. Two day latter I’m told the computer reassigned everything and IF the people they were assigned to don’t want them we will get them back. How in the hell can you plan and run a business when you give and give and they just screw you.
Oh yeah I started out this to ask if anyone else doing AMS work got the “computer reassigned everything” from there state rep


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## Guest

They found someone cheaper....not a computer glitch! I'm willing to bet the bank on it. 


Oh yeah I started out this to ask if anyone else doing AMS work got the “computer reassigned everything” from there state rep
[/QUOTE]


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## GTX63

It was not a computer glitch with AMS.


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## BPWY

They key to a good BS story is that its got to be believable......

In their case only they think its believable. Means it wasn't a good BS story.

I'd say they are lying. They most likely were able to bamboozle another hack into doing them for less than you would.


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