# 3 point preservation



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

these people don't know how to pay either. We have not gotten paid from our client so we are not going to pay you??? Whata bunch of crap


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Lien asap. If you can't then threaten it anyway and get hold of the lender.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> these people don't know how to pay either. We have not gotten paid from our client so we are not going to pay you??? Whata bunch of crap


That is not a bunch of crap at all and you most likely signed a contract agreeing to this type of payment agreement.

How are they supposed to pay you if the client hasn't paid them?

I do not think that they are a great company nor am I saying they are above board. I am simply stating that if you agreed to this type of payment arrangement then this is within their rights.


----------



## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Which is exactly my problem with the pay when paid model. If you as the"regional" decide not to do your due diligence and sign up with a sketchy company, not the subs problem. Now if something wasn't done properly, that's a different story. But in this case, if the person paying 3 point just didn't pay, but everything was done properly, the sub should still be paid, and 3 point will have to try and collect from the person paying them.


----------



## wmhlc (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm sure they signed a contract that agreed to those terms but 95% of nationals and regionals don't follow state and local laws. In Michigan you can't have a blanket lien waiver. Its a job by job lien waiver only. Most of nationals contract agreements will be tossed out by a judge because they aren't licensed contractors in the state they are issuing work in, by law in michigan they must a builders license in order to sub work out. If it gets nasty just tell the national that and they are screwed. They must pay or the judge will place a lien on the property for performing work without a conctractors license and the fine is 5000k. Call your local licensing agent they love and live to bust these guys.

Its not his problem if the regional/national didn't get paid, if he completed the work and to the clients standards then he should be paid. Most payment issues are not the clients fault its the company that issued the invoice. They made a mistake by not putting a PO number on, wrong info, inovice amount not correct.




Doberman Properties said:


> That is not a bunch of crap at all and you most likely signed a contract agreeing to this type of payment agreement.
> 
> How are they supposed to pay you if the client hasn't paid them?
> 
> I do not think that they are a great company nor am I saying they are above board. I am simply stating that if you agreed to this type of payment arrangement then this is within their rights.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

WHMLC,

In a nutshell YOU just explained why it does not pay to be a regional anylonger. It cost our company an average of $40,000 per year in "non-pays" with a high year of $70k++. 

Contract Law 101. Local, State, Fed laws supercede contracts thus the reason for the Severance Portion of a contract. Without that portion a contract is "tossed out" by any judge.... What a guy can learn the hardway  Every State that I know of has the same requirements as what you stated for Michigan. 

Just not worth the risk anylonger by using subs in a non-regulated industry. As stated from others on the "other" forum...employees are the only way to prevent that set of problems albeit having employees has other headaches.


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

Doberman Properties said:


> That is not a bunch of crap at all and you most likely signed a contract agreeing to this type of payment agreement.
> 
> How are they supposed to pay you if the client hasn't paid them?
> 
> I do not think that they are a great company nor am I saying they are above board. I am simply stating that if you agreed to this type of payment arrangement then this is within their rights.


from their contract 



*PAYMENT: *​3P makes every attempt to pay its contractors an agreed upon fee for each on-time job, net 30 days. Invoices will not be considered as having been submitted for payment until all photographs, reports, quality issues, and any other agreed upon requirements are received and resolved. Failure to follow product directions and requirements may affect payments 

So they are in breech of contract 


Doobie their problems with their client ARE NOT my problem. My contract is NOT WITH THEIR CLIENT. MOre than likely they are feeding me a line of . That is called business. Through no part of my own did receive any QC notices that were declines or ?? If you want quality subs then you have to pay when yousay you will and retain them. Sounds like you have a hard time retaining subs withthat kind of ethic. With mine I pay when the work is done and passed QC not 30 to 60 days out . Quality subs= reliable arrivals on site and professional results. We are not doing this for our health


----------



## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> from their contract
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
FUNNY... They were out with 60-90... They were pressuring for recuts and intitals... I told them I had to put them on hold as their account was unpaid this was in end of July. Stopped doing their work... 15 days later they got current.
A week ago they called asking if I would resume work...lol


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

The following is from their website



*What are your qualifications and what makes 3Point so different in the marketplace?*

For years, lenders have asked about mortgage supply chain management. The fact is that a recent poll showed that 70% of many well known networks have some sort of material overlap. What that means is, that despite which national provider you use, there is a strong chance that the boots on the ground doing the actual work or transactions could be the same individuals. In addition, 3Point's management team is industry experienced and has implemented best in class process from lenders, servicers and providers across the country.

Furthermore, 3Point embraces technology, operational guides, and training manuals to ensure your explicit instructions are followed, and we go through great effort to ensure that your property is managed correctly the first time.


I know most contractors work for multiple companies, so how does this make them different? :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

Their E mail to me regarding the work orders assigned to me 

Dear Partner: 

You have a new approved work order from 3Point Lender Services. You have 1 hour to login and accept it, or it will be reassigned. 

I told them to reassign them yesterday. and thats when I got this e mail. 

Time will tell if they will back up their words with action

 me a river


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

wmhlc said:


> I'm sure they signed a contract that agreed to those terms but 95% of nationals and regionals don't follow state and local laws. In Michigan you can't have a blanket lien waiver. Its a job by job lien waiver only. Most of nationals contract agreements will be tossed out by a judge because they aren't licensed contractors in the state they are issuing work in, by law in michigan they must a builders license in order to sub work out. If it gets nasty just tell the national that and they are screwed. They must pay or the judge will place a lien on the property for performing work without a conctractors license and the fine is 5000k. Call your local licensing agent they love and live to bust these guys.
> 
> Its not his problem if the regional/national didn't get paid, if he completed the work and to the clients standards then he should be paid. Most payment issues are not the clients fault its the company that issued the invoice. They made a mistake by not putting a PO number on, wrong info, inovice amount not correct.



A lien has to be perfected for starters and most nationals do have a contractors license they work under. I have filed many liens and it is not as easy as people think. My brother is an attorney so we basically have house council and it still gets costly.


Their agreement should stand in court no liens should be allowed and the Plaintiff should have to incur all costs. Why would you agree to pay as paid then complain after? A signed contract is a signed contract.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> from their contract
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My problem with subs is not retaining them it is actually finding guys that can perform. Running 4-6 orders a day won't get it working for us. If a guy can't knock out 12-20 orders a day he has no business being here. We burn people out quickly with our volume.

If their agreement says nothing about pay as paid then you are correct it is their problem and you should be paid.

I pay as paid I have sought legal council and received the same advice from my accountant. That is one area where we will never change our policy.

I tried the other method and lost thousands on charge backs and contractors that flaked out. I will never go through it again. I have bought mowers for guys, paid ahead, bailed them out of jail over child support, paid their mortgage, done about everything I could to be a nice guy and a good boss.

At the end of the day I run a business and if it's bad for me it's bad for everybody. Just like when it's bad for them I suffer.

I have a guys with a sick kid right now and I am being as patient and compassionate as I can but we are killing our compliance rating.

These things work both ways.


----------



## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

While I understand that point of view, simply not paying on a work order to the sub because you didn't get paid from the national, for no QC reason, is not reasonable, in my opinion it's unethical. Your "promise" or "agreement" is between you and the subcontractor. 

I understand the chargeback thing, but chargebacks come in after the order has already been paid. 

I am a fan of something to the effect of payment when paid but NOT TO EXCEED 30-45 days. If for some reason you haven't gotten paid by day 45, you cut the check anyway. Generally all large nationals pay within this time frame.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Yes, I have been burned. Had chargebacks, slow and no pays, debris totals cut, etc. I'm not passing judgement on anyone else, however, a lot of subs are living check to check. If I want to keep the good ones, they have to know there is a check for them at the end of the week. Sometimes the baby, the utility, the bank, the doctor, etc won't wait...
My rule of thumb on the bad subs is, they only cost me money the first and last time.


----------



## wmhlc (Oct 8, 2012)

Doberman Properties said:


> A lien has to be perfected for starters and most nationals do have a contractors license they work under. I have filed many liens and it is not as easy as people think. My brother is an attorney so we basically have house council and it still gets costly.
> 
> 
> Their agreement should stand in court no liens should be allowed and the Plaintiff should have to incur all costs. Why would you agree to pay as paid then complain after? A signed contract is a signed contract.


 
I'm in michigan, I have no idea what state you are in, but your 100% wrong using michigan law. By law you can't sign a contract for building services over $600 without being a licensed builder period. If you sign a contract without a license the contract is viod and a lien is not valid. A lien only costs us $30 to file so I really hope your not paying 1000's to issue a lien. A lawyer will file them for $150 all day long.

A sign contract will always gets tossed out if it doesn't fall into the current guidelines. You need you name, date and license number with your insurance cert attached. If you not have that it's a bad contract and doesn't stand up in court.

THe nationals and regionals have to be licensed in each state, the license doesn't travel state lines. For the record I known of only one regional thats licensed in michigan and thats only becasue they are a michigan company. SG, Cyprexx, bros, FAS, AMS all those guys aren't licensed by the state of michigan to contract out work.

Plus by michigan law all the people issues the work being the point of contact needs to be licensed sales person by law. If you take or recieve orders on a job they have to be licensed.


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

Finally talked to their accounting guru and he said he would talk to upper management blah blah blah

I told them no more ongoing work ETC till I am paid in full


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

wmhlc said:


> I'm in michigan, I have no idea what state you are in, but your 100% wrong using michigan law. By law you can't sign a contract for building services over $600 without being a licensed builder period. If you sign a contract without a license the contract is viod and a lien is not valid. A lien only costs us $30 to file so I really hope your not paying 1000's to issue a lien. A lawyer will file them for $150 all day long.
> 
> A sign contract will always gets tossed out if it doesn't fall into the current guidelines. You need you name, date and license number with your insurance cert attached. If you not have that it's a bad contract and doesn't stand up in court.
> 
> ...


Liens are cheap to file you misunderstood my post. The thousands spent are not for the lien itself but proving it and perfecting it. Any lawyer that can't beat a lien filed by some grass cutting Craigslister isn't much of a lawyer. If the regional doesn't issue a strong contract that is their fault. I do not know MI law so I could not comment to that.

Everyone that works for me is on a properly signed and executed contract. Not one of my contracts would get thrown out of court. Luckily I have not had to test that. Most of the companies you name work under a GC license. I worked in the past for a large company and we had guys taking tests in all kinds of states.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Yes, I have been burned. Had chargebacks, slow and no pays, debris totals cut, etc. I'm not passing judgement on anyone else, however, a lot of subs are living check to check. If I want to keep the good ones, they have to know there is a check for them at the end of the week. Sometimes the baby, the utility, the bank, the doctor, etc won't wait...
> My rule of thumb on the bad subs is, they only cost me money the first and last time.



Last year I had to replace a roof and remediate a house full of mold that a contractor missed. I didn't owe him anything because I had been paying him out of my pocket because he was going through some personal issues. When I called him and asked him to perform the work and i would pay for materials so we could put this behind us. His response was "what are you going to pay me?" I said nothing you are lucky I am not asking you to buy materials. He refused to do the work and he is no longer with me. He cost me thousands.

I will forever hold ALL money until i am paid by the client regardless of reason or performance. I run a business not a charity.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Doberman, 

I would get a new attorney 

1) Leins can be filed by any sub regardless of a contract. 
2) Contracts on P&P are worth as much as a Biden interuption. They don't hold water.
3) Unfortunately I have been receiving end of testing a contract on P&P and didn't fair to well..even after paying literraly $1000's of dollars on ironclad contracts. Leason learned.
4) Fortunately after learning that these contracts don't "hold water" I used it to my benefit and leined 340 properties and won. Should have retired then but it wasn't my money but mostly our subs.

Now you ask "why are these contracts not binding?" & the answer is this: YOU (contractor) are not getting a valid signed contract on each and every home BY THE OWNER. 
If the contractor got the signed contract from the OWNER than that would be a different outcome perhaps.

Every National knows this but puts the big scare on the regionals and the smaller subs. 

We had the benefit of a fairly close friend who owned a HUGE National Company that ran into HUD payments delays/chargebacks and won such a huge settlement he now is retired on his yacht... I know you watch these forums Mickey..so a big howdy.


----------



## wmhlc (Oct 8, 2012)

I 2nd the new lawyer.

Most states don't have a GC license. Anybody can call themselves a GC, its not a licensed profession. I known of only a couple states that have them, NY and florida for sure have them because they are the hardest states to get a license in, and have the most money for it.

2nd a license is issued by the state you are working in, it doesn't travel state lines.

Anybody can file a lien, but when it comes down to it most of them are thrown out for not being filed by a licensed contractor. The city doesn't check that stuff they just take your paperwork and your $15 and file the thing.


95% of p&p work your cant file a valid lien on it even if you had all the proper documents and licenses. You can only file liens on improvements to a property.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Doberman Properties said:


> I run a business not a charity.


I agree. Short story, I paid for two months of a long time sub's mortgage last year and his divorce lawyer's retainer. After 3 months, the guy paid me $100. I took his trailers, his ladders, current money owed on jobs and he's selling used cars now.
Roofers for example, won't work for local P&P guys that pay when paid. I can get them because they know it's cash on completion.
Your policy isn't wrong, it is just yours.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> I agree. Short story, I paid for two months of a long time sub's mortgage last year and his divorce lawyer's retainer. After 3 months, the guy paid me $100. I took his trailers, his ladders, current money owed on jobs and he's selling used cars now.
> Roofers for example, won't work for local P&P guys that pay when paid. I can get them because they know it's cash on completion.
> Your policy isn't wrong, it is just yours.






Any cheap dump trailers for sale? :innocent:


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Nope, no such thing as cheap dump trailers. He had two 16' utility trailers. One beat to death. I took a bath on it and not ashamed to admit it.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> I agree. Short story, I paid for two months of a long time sub's mortgage last year and his divorce lawyer's retainer. After 3 months, the guy paid me $100. I took his trailers, his ladders, current money owed on jobs and he's selling used cars now.
> Roofers for example, won't work for local P&P guys that pay when paid. I can get them because they know it's cash on completion.
> Your policy isn't wrong, it is just yours.


There is an argument for both sides. The money flowing faster seems to be a huge issue with most people. For me personally that isn't even on the radar.

I am mostly concerned with more and more photo requirements and slow software for uploading. Nationals requiring us to cover more territory than we actually want. Having to take the rural stuff to get Metro. Cleaning out entire properties filled with junk for a BATF? Scary stuff!


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Doberman Properties said:


> .
> 
> I am mostly concerned with more and more photo requirements and slow software for uploading. Nationals requiring us to cover more territory than we actually want. Having to take the rural stuff to get Metro. Cleaning out entire properties filled with junk for a BATF? Scary stuff!


That is the truth!
Some guys have figured out making a million dollars a year with 25 guys, 100 hour weeks, overhead, buildings, accountants, that they can make jus a little bit less with a handful of subs and an office at the house.

Locals have two requirements- Do it right. Do it on time.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> That is the truth!
> Some guys have figured out making a million dollars a year with 25 guys, 100 hour weeks, overhead, buildings, accountants, that they can make jus a little bit less with a handful of subs and an office at the house.
> 
> Locals have two requirements- Do it right. Do it on time.



Agreed!!! I started out 4 years ago doing 700 inspections a month for Core Logic. Went to P&P, Then REO, now local brokers and residents and a small amount of P&P/ REO. Working less every year and making the same $$$$$$.....


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> That is the truth!
> Some guys have figured out making a million dollars a year with 25 guys, 100 hour weeks, overhead, buildings, accountants, that they can make jus a little bit less with a handful of subs and an office at the house.
> 
> Locals have two requirements- Do it right. Do it on time.



I am currently having that AH-HA moment myself.

I ahve a big conference call with a national today. Wish me luck it's a come to Jesus meeting.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Doberman Properties said:


> I am currently having that AH-HA moment myself.
> 
> I ahve a big conference call with a national today. Wish me luck it's a come to Jesus meeting.





Tell them to F off and get local work.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

I do wish you best but if Christ didn't tell you already, Nationals have no soul.


----------



## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> I do wish you best but if Christ didn't tell you already, Nationals have no soul.


I just bought some unused lawn equipment from a failed landscaping company. I almost felt like a national for talking the guy down so low and saw he was happy to accept it.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

thanohano44 said:


> I just bought some unused lawn equipment from a failed landscaping company. I almost felt like a national for talking the guy down so low and saw he was happy to accept it.





Did you feel like Matt? :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

BPWY said:


> Did you feel like Matt? :lol: :lol: :lol:


You're terrible. Lol. Like Matt, I rarely pay full price for anything. Talked the store manager at Slowes down on a Display dehu. He wanted $175. I told him $100 and he can't keep the discharge hose. I ended up talking him down to $75 after he tried to hardball me. I just told my wife (in front of him) to not to go to the checkout line and let's go to Home Depot since they recognize how much business we bring them. Lol

I showed him what MFS sells their dehu's for and that I get them in 5 days with free shipping for orders over $450. I'm sure soon i won't need Slowes or Home Depot. 
.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

thanohano44 said:


> You're terrible. Lol.
> .





I know I am, isn't it awful?

You probably shouldn't hang out with some one of my bad influence.


----------



## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

BPWY said:


> I know I am, isn't it awful?
> 
> You probably shouldn't hang out with some one of my bad influence.


#PunjabiSwagg


----------



## dalene (Oct 17, 2012)

We are experiencing the same thing from 3 POINT LENDING SERVICES. Have not received any payment since we did the first job 6 months ago. Yes they keep sending us work....we have done them since they are little jobs but have noW stopped accepting any. Keep getting the run around from everyone we are able to get thru to. 
We have been doing property preservation for over 5 years now and have never had a problem with payment from the 20-25 companies we have done work for.

WANT TO GET THE WORD OUT THERE THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT PAY THEIR VENDORS. THEIR PAPERWORK/AGREEMENT SAYS WITH IN 30-45 DAYS AND IT HAS BEEN 180 DAYS NOW.
If anyone has a contact number of someone at 3 Point that can get things thru please respond.
Thanks


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

dalene said:


> We are experiencing the same thing from 3 POINT LENDING SERVICES. Have not received any payment since we did the first job 6 months ago. Yes they keep sending us work....we have done them since they are little jobs but have noW stopped accepting any. Keep getting the run around from everyone we are able to get thru to.
> We have been doing property preservation for over 5 years now and have never had a problem with payment from the 20-25 companies we have done work for.
> 
> WANT TO GET THE WORD OUT THERE THAT THIS COMPANY DOES NOT PAY THEIR VENDORS. THEIR PAPERWORK/AGREEMENT SAYS WITH IN 30-45 DAYS AND IT HAS BEEN 180 DAYS NOW.
> ...


Send them a LEIN 

THEY WILL PAY speaking from expeirence


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

The key to this issue is "Governing Law".....
That refers to local law....just because you executed a contract with a company in Florida from your office in Michigan does not mean the contract is;
#1. Legal
#2. Enforceable
#3. is not voidable

Local jurisdictions have the authority to void a contract or sections of a contract. Most contracts have a "severability" clause that will allow for an improper or illegal section of a contract to be removed without voiding the entire contract.......
You need to check locally to see how it works in you local jurisdiction....


----------

