# Wint Advisory for NV Contractors



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

http://reno.craigslist.org/lab/4027491432.html

NRS specifically states...plumbers...wow I do wonder how this will play out as the fine is 10k if you're caught....

I do know we are not risking things for the numbers they push at us...


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

I call BS on this!
Pouring antifreeze in a toilet and blowing lines with air needs to be done by a plumber?
Do you need a permit and have to use a registered plumber to use a plunger to unclog a toilet? It is after all something a plumber does.
How about changing a hose on your washing machine?
What about changing the filter on your heater, according to the craigslist post that is something a heating/ac contractor must do?
Performing a winterization is not a repair or improvement, so no need for a permit, and no need to be performed by a licensed plumber!
Stop scaring people.
I encourage everyone to call their local codes department and tell them you are going on vacation over the winter and want to drain the pipes and put antifreeze in your toilets and traps and ask if you need a permit or a licensed plumber and please post your results.


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

And since when does a craigslist ad all of a sudden become the law of the land??????

There are 100's of post on this site about idiots posting wanted ads for property preservation and everyone gets a good laugh at the crackheads posting these ads, but some genius post an ad warning people not to do winterizations and it gets posted here like a national advisory!


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## ontimepres (Jan 4, 2013)

You might be surprised to find out that many of the things you listed DO require a license if you are completing them for compensation. If you are completing it on your own home not for compensation then you may not have an issue. For example, in Florida even connecting a dishwasher to the water line requires a license IF you are doing it for compensation. 

I would also encourage everyone to call their local or state authorities and ask questions but instead of a false scenario about vacation/your own property get the FACTS about performing a winterization for compensation. 




bigdaddy said:


> I call BS on this!
> Pouring antifreeze in a toilet and blowing lines with air needs to be done by a plumber?
> Do you need a permit and have to use a registered plumber to use a plunger to unclog a toilet? It is after all something a plumber does.
> How about changing a hose on your washing machine?
> ...


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

Noone just decides to one day connect a dishwasher to a water line, that is called an installation (either a replacement or new install) and I agree, that requires a licensed plumber in almost any state, so does installing a new hot water heater, new faucet, toilet, etc.... What I am saying is POURING ANTIFREEZE AND BLOWING AIR IN A LINE to clear water does not require a licensed plumber. Now, you may be required to be registered in the state that you work in, but that is not what is being discussed here. If you are in this business I would hope you would already be registered as a general contractor. In PA I am registered as a home improvement contractor and anyone doing any work in the state must be registered to do work, but that covers me to do a winterization, if I was to hook up a dishwasher, then I would be in trouble because I am not a plumber, big difference.
And that is exactly what the NV code is implying, it is saying if its under $1,000 then its exempt except if its something that needs to be completed by a plumber, like a dishwasher install for example. Just because it has the word PLUMBER does not mean anything a plumber does, pouring antifreeze, using a plunger, etc.... is not the same as installing something


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

Not an improvement.

This CL post has the Union Fingers all over it.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

You are required to perform a "pressure Test"...and the service requires(for FNMA) $300 worth of repairs...
The information posted in the post is from Nevada revised Statutes and is state law...
Would you like to argue with our state AG Big Daddy????

I'm not going to do so...plumbers can do the wints...they are asking for inspections....read the service specs....


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

ontimepres said:


> You might be surprised to find out that many of the things you listed DO require a license if you are completing them for compensation. If you are completing it on your own home not for compensation then you may not have an issue. For example, in Florida even connecting a dishwasher to the water line requires a license IF you are doing it for compensation.
> 
> I would also encourage everyone to call their local or state authorities and ask questions but instead of a false scenario about vacation/your own property get the FACTS about performing a winterization for compensation.


BINGO...I'm on the phone with the owner of our company right now...
this was her comment to your statement Big Daddy...
Apples and Oranges...when you do something for compensation there is a different element involved called the LAW...so perhaps you should stop blowing smoke up skirts....The post actually had Nevada Revised Statutes in it..Furthermore I would not attempt to "Scare" anyone I only produce facts as they are presented to me....


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

Cleanupman said:


> BINGO...I'm on the phone with the owner of our company right now...
> this was her comment to your statement Big Daddy...
> Apples and Oranges...when you do something for compensation there is a different element involved called the LAW...so perhaps you should stop blowing smoke up skirts....The post actually had Nevada Revised Statutes in it..Furthermore I would not attempt to "Scare" anyone I only produce facts as they are presented to me....


Wow. Ok, I apologize for saying to call and tell them you are doing it for your own house, I was not trying to find some top secret spy loop hole or blow smoke up anyones skirts. Tell them EXACTLY what you plan on doing which is POUR ANTIFREEZE DOWN SOME DRAINS, EMPTY THE HOT WATER HEATER AND BLOW SOME AIR THRU THE LINES TO CLEAR THE LINES OF ANY WATER!!!!
If you are a contractor doing ANY P&P work, you should already be registered as a contractor and that is ALL you need to have to do a friggin winterization!
The bottom line is you don't have to have a plumber do it!
I can see that the post had the Nevada revised statutes posted, what I am trying to tell you is that you are NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT THEY MEAN!
Doing a winterization requires no replacement of a plumbing fixture, requires no cutting into any pipes, and no alterations to the existing plumbing system = NO PERMITS, NO PLUMBER REQUIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND???????


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## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

the only thing that I see that could remotely be an issue here is if some rocket scientist newbie opens up the lines and BACKFLOWS water that had been sitting in the forclosed property into the water system. The ONLY issue. I was told by many MANY municipalities that if I TOUCH the water meter it is a 1K fine. and if i break it, it is MORE. So how do you work around this . "HI this is fred with freds reo I am at 123 main st and I need the water shut off because we have a flooding property" DONE no " well sir are you a signer or and of that crap. Come on People they have their rules we have ours and be diplomatic. "Let them have your way " is my definition of diplomacy


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

And by the way, here is the full chapter 624 that has to do with contractors in NV:
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-624.html#NRS624Sec220

What the craigslist poster did was post a single paragraph which talks about exceptions, meaning you don't have to register as a contractor if you work for the govt, state of nv, the court, etc.... then it goes on to say any work under $1,000 unless it is something that needs to be done by a plumber, electrician, etc.... Talk about APPLES TO ORANGES!!!

PLEASE, PLEASE, show me where it says you need to have a plumber perform a winterization???

If you read this entire chapter 624, it explains EXACTLY what I have been saying, you need to be registered as a CONTRACTOR, to do work for profit.

No where, and I mean no where does it say a plumber has to perform the work!


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

I still cant figure out for the life of me how anyone can blow the lines from the meter to the 1st discharge point WITHOUT disconnecting the meter which DOES require a licensed plumber by law/code......

Hhmmm someone must be sucking that water out.... lol


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

As long as you don't break the seal and disconnect the meter from the "street" side you are not "disconnecting" the meter.

The only reason they don't want you to disconnect is because you can put in a jumper and steal water. When doing a winterization I always disconnect the meter from the "house" side meter coupling and hook up the compressor there. The seal is never broken so the meter is still intact. Absolutly nothing wrong with this and I even got conformation from The Philadelphia Water Dept. and City of Philadelphia codes dept.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Well when I contacted the NCSB and inquired about this issue this was their response. 
So Again Big Daddy...button your lip as I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to Nevada law and how the agencies play in my back yard....
As I stated earlier...you want to come play with the authorities here be my guest...for a hundred bucks it is not worth my time to take the risk...it really is not rocket science..READ the specs on a wint...they specifically spell out "Pressure test" and inspection...those are a little more than putting anti-freeze and blowing out lines as you say a wint is...you work for SGP or something???? The specs spell out need for professional opinions....
but then again you're the PPI expert huh???? you should write a book.....
As I stated it's not worth the hassle for me to deal with the agencies that make determinations...Do you honestly think that a judge will listen to your rants over a qualified appointed state official that is saying you need to be a licensed plumber to perform the service???? 
:blink'OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I guess that as a HUD contractor I might be able to get an exemption as a government worker?????
BTW...even a GC can not do plumbing work in the state of NV.....

This is in response to your recent inquiry concerning licensing requirements to perform the work
outlined in your e-mail dated April 10, 2013, including the attachment entitled “HIPR” and
“WINTERIZATION.” Based on the information received, in the opinion of staff, these services would fall within the scope of the C-1 (Plumbing & Heating) and the C-2 (Electrical) license classifications.
It is not the State Contractors Board intent, nor within the purview of the jurisdiction of the Board
to decide or resolve disputes involving the award of a bid or contract, or compliance with bid
instructions and bid requirements. You should consult with your legal counsel regarding these
matters.
It should be noted that under NRS 624.035 there might be more stringent requirements as
determined by the city or county having jurisdiction.
License application forms and additional information concerning licensure are available at our
website www.nscb.nv.gov.
If you have further questions, please feel free to contact our office.

Sincerely,
Susan Broili-Kamesch
Licensing Supervisor – Northern Nevada


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

This means nothing, all I see is an answer. How do I know what questions you asked. After all, it seems like you have a hard on for the industry so I'm sure you worded the question is a way to suite your needs. Of course they "fall within the scope" of a plumber, what else is she supposed to say, she had to pick something. That still doesn't prove that a licensed plumber has to do the work.
Maybe you should have a survey, seems like that is where you gather most of your information.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

bigdaddy said:


> This means nothing, all I see is an answer. How do I know what questions you asked. After all, it seems like you have a hard on for the industry so I'm sure you worded the question is a way to suite your needs. Of course they "fall within the scope" of a plumber, what else is she supposed to say, she had to pick something. That still doesn't prove that a licensed plumber has to do the work.
> Maybe you should have a survey, seems like that is where you gather most of your information.


I sent them the service specs...
You are the same guy that was on linkedin...that is word for word what you said to me there last year when I called you out on your know-it-all comments....


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Cool it down boys 

Im sure each jurisdiction may look at things differently. I do know in 2011 the States of Mn, Ia & Ne would not allow a contractor to disconnect any fitting on a domestic water line without being a licensed plumber UNLESS it was during an emergency situation. 

I know from our $350 fine from the City of St Paul that emergencies are biased even when water is flooding a home and the shutoff valves are both nonfunctiining so the crew disconnected the meter and was able to screw on a temp shutoff valve to stop the shooting water... Thought that was an emergency but Water Dept thought otherwise BUT the Service Company did pay the fine..


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Many jurisdictions here in Northern Nevada fine 1200 bucks if you turn off the meter...not disconnect..turn off.
The section of the NRS I posted covers Handymen in the state of NV...as it spells out not even a GC can do any type of plumbing. The NSCB determined based on the service specs that a pressure test and inspections as the specs call for were asking for a professional opinion.
As I stated there is more to a wint than
"blowing out the lines and placing antifreeze in a commode"
And I believe all the Contractors on this forum know and understand that element of the service.
Issues that the Contractors need to become cognizant of are ones like this and instead of calling Bull**** figure out how to use this information to their advantage.
Contractors have to stop rolling over and playing follow the leader as the leaders are starting to face RICO violations and the contractors that wish to blindly are flirting with disaster
There comes a point when every one is going to have to say no to all the order mill shenanigans and start acting like you own a business and take the responsibility of being a business owner seriously...which means Contractors have got to throw out the "employee" mentality they have and stand up for themselves....
Those that are serious will be in attendance October One Summit...
Since none of the organizations out there will stand up and take a position for the Contractors...


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

After Last nights debate I contacted our contractors board and had about a two hour long conversation with them. I broke down step by step what the winterization service entailed...
The determination previously given was based on the following.
Pressure test
Inspection
AND the commitment to $300 in plumbing repairs.

So I asked...What if the repairs portion of the work order was removed.

"Then we wouldn't have a problem"...


However, there is a caveat. If you are not a GC, which many of the PPI Contractors are not, then the client...AMS, FAS, etc has to contract with the plumber directly for the repair work.

So I suppose I do need to say sorry to Big Daddy for the button your lip comment....:blink:

I'm still curious how that will paly out here as they want everything in one package....


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## Irnhrse5 (Apr 18, 2013)

I can't speak for any of the other nationals, but I know Safeguard doesn't let us do any kind of plumbing repair. If the system is compromised, no pressure test is to be done and repairs for bids have to be submitted.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Irnhrse5 said:


> I can't speak for any of the other nationals, but I know Safeguard doesn't let us do any kind of plumbing repair. If the system is compromised, no pressure test is to be done and repairs for bids have to be submitted.


This is in many of the service specs that nationals send out...

Winterization Dry -. Submit with ample before and after photos. (Plumbing Repairs
require approval above 300.00 Plumbing Allowable)
Northern States - 9/1 to 5/1 and Southern States- 10/1 to 4/1

The interpretation of this section was you are required to do plumbing repairs....


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## Irnhrse5 (Apr 18, 2013)

Cleanupman said:


> This is in many of the service specs that nationals send out...
> 
> Winterization Dry -. Submit with ample before and after photos. (Plumbing Repairs
> require approval above 300.00 Plumbing Allowable)
> ...


Our solution to that is simple. 1. We aren't plumbers. 2. Since we aren't Plumbers, everything is over the $300 allowable and any plumbing work bid will be performed by a licensed plumber.


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

Cleanupman said:


> After Last nights debate I contacted our contractors board and had about a two hour long conversation with them. I broke down step by step what the winterization service entailed...
> The determination previously given was based on the following.
> Pressure test
> Inspection
> ...


You sir, are a bigger man then most for coming back and posting your findings.:thumbup: 

No need to say sorry, it was a heated argument on both our parts because we both felt we were right.

Let me just clear one thing, you have accused me 2 times now of being someone with the same screen name on linken, I said it before and I will say it again I HAVE NEVER HAD OR WILL HAVE A LINKDEN account! Im not even 100% sure what it is but I also never had or will have a facebook, twitter, my space, or any other accounts. I belong to this forum and a gun related forum and I rarely post on either, that is the extent of my social media experiences.

Back to the topic of this discussion. Let me start by saying I am in PP but unlike most people here, I didn't start as a landscaper. My background is in construction and rehabs. I buy houses with my own money and rehab them or tear down and rebuild. The only reason I got started in this business is because every time I tried to purchase a bank owned property I was always getting outbid so I decided to get on the inside and get friendly with the brokers. I started many moons ago with Safeguard but that lasted less then 1 year before I quit, after all I was not interested in doing only trashouts and lawns. However, in that very short period of time I managed to get very friendly with every REO broker that I could. Before I knew it I was working directly for some of the top brokers in my area. Today I work direct for about 10 brokers doing mostly Freddie Mac and Wells Fargo work. I am also on Wells Fargos direct repair team for capital repairs($25K+ average job!). 

Ok, back to the topic again. The reason I am telling you this is because I work with every code inspector in the 5 counties I cover and I KNOW what requires a permit or a licensed plumber and what doesn't. Again, I build houses for a living, not just cut grass and do trashouts. I also assumed that even if you are a landscaper, as soon as you signed up to do PP you should have registered as a general contractor with your state.

The other thing which was left out until about the 20th post in this thread happened to be the deciding factor, the $300 in repairs. I was saying all along antifreeze and blowing lines, to me that's a winterization, its not complicated. To be honest, I have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about here?? Forgive me for my ignorance but again, I only do direct work and I have never heard of this? Are you saying that a national pays you $100 or whatever to do a winterization and it's up to you to do $300 in repairs while you at it?

I charge $250 for winterizations and I don't have to fill out an inspection report or do any repairs. Hell, I don't even need photos, but I take them for my own personal use and protection. Of course if there is any problems I will let the client know and bid to repair. And I am licensed to pull any permit for any job required in the areas that I cover, however even if I wasn't, doing a winterization would not be an issue.

My suggestion to anyone working for a national is to just tell them you are not licensed to do any plumbing repairs, but you will be happy to complete the winterization if the system is intact. And if your in the Philly area, tell em "BigDaddy will handle that for you!":lol:


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

I actually put them on the button about it as they threatened me with litigation...
I produced a document they wrote and signed...
Then they still hemmed and hawwed...then I told them to sue me as the attorneys I spoke to said I had all the right in the world to inform anyone that performs the service of their decision....

Oh..that $300 section is from FNMA wint specs....


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

bigdaddy said:


> As long as you don't break the seal and disconnect the meter from the "street" side you are not "disconnecting" the meter.
> 
> The only reason they don't want you to disconnect is because you can put in a jumper and steal water. When doing a winterization I always disconnect the meter from the "house" side meter coupling and hook up the compressor there. The seal is never broken so the meter is still intact. Absolutly nothing wrong with this and I even got conformation from The Philadelphia Water Dept. and City of Philadelphia codes dept.





Your seal is different, most all of the ones I see are sealed on both sides.


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

BPWY said:


> Your seal is different, most all of the ones I see are sealed on both sides.


Yeah, I guess it's different for everyone but I don't see why they need seals on both sides, it's only so they know if you removed the meter, it certainly isn't a security device and as long as the meter stays connected on the street side then the water is flowing thru the meter and being counted and around here that's all that matters to them.


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## STARBABY (Apr 12, 2012)

bigdaddy said:


> Yeah, I guess it's different for everyone but I don't see why they need seals on both sides, it's only so they know if you removed the meter, it certainly isn't a security device and as long as the meter stays connected on the street side then the water is flowing thru the meter and being counted and around here that's all that matters to them.


I know around here water company doesn`t want you to even touch there meter ,so I don`t


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