# Flooded Basement- Who is at fault



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Contractor A completes initial services (water is on & no leaks found). Contractor B does some landscaping and installs a hose to spicket with a timer so new landscaping is watered for 7-10 days. Basement floods (finished basement). 

Cause: Water spicket bib had a solder joint, from apparent old freeze damage, on pipe at bib that sprayed water (behind finished wall) whenever the water was actually turned on and ran. So it was deduced that everytime the meter/timer turned on to water landscape the property flooded more.

Who is responsible for the damage?

For another twist: Contractor B did the landscaping for free.

Interested to hear these answers!


----------



## MNanny (May 23, 2013)

In the real world this would be an insurance claim.


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

*......*



Wannabe said:


> Contractor A completes initial services (water is on & no leaks found). Contractor B does some landscaping and installs a hose to spicket with a timer so new landscaping is watered for 7-10 days. Basement floods (finished basement).
> 
> Cause: Water spicket bib had a solder joint, from apparent old freeze damage, on pipe at bib that sprayed water (behind finished wall) whenever the water was actually turned on and ran. So it was deduced that everytime the meter/timer turned on to water landscape the property flooded more.
> 
> ...


B is He was the last one at the property. Sounds like the Frost free bib did not have proper drainage or negative drainage, back towards the house


----------



## hammerhead (Apr 26, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> B is He was the last one at the property. Sounds like the Frost free bib did not have proper drainage or negative drainage, back towards the house


What if "B" never entered the house?? Your not going to blame me for a flooded basement if I am only there for ext services.


----------



## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

Hidden damage. No way to tell the spigot was defective or damaged. If Contractor B was never required to enter the dwelling, no way for him to know damage was occurring. And even if B is required to enter, he can only report the damage when found.

Sounds like an insurance claim for the owner (be that bank or individual).

Now, if B was supposed to enter the dwelling and didn't go into the basement....he could be on the hook for the damages.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Forgot (my bad) that water was turned on at meter by Contractor B. 

Great answers!


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Was the property winterized????

Oh and it's the pipes fault for breaking...

Good question though...

The variable if the first question, under the scenario you have outlined, Contractor B is still on the hook regardless if he was required to enter or not as he should be checking the systems integrity as he is turning water on to the property. 
Regardless of the fact the service provided is external the water system stills goes through the dwelling and the systems integrity should have been checked prior to doing the assuming thing....furtherore the scenario you outlined could not happen if the break in the pipe is internal as if the water was on at time cContractor A was there...water would have been in the basement...the joint you describe a going bad would be in front(insidethe wall) of the ball joint that controls the flow of water in the hose bib....


----------



## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

Oh, if B turned the water on - he should have checked the dwelling out to make sure the fridge supply line was capped or turned off, make sure all the internal faucets were off, and listened for any apparent leaks (sound of running water). if he just turned the water on and left...he's going to be talking to his insurance company. And that goes for whether he was required to do an internal inspection or not. That's just common sense.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> B is He was the last one at the property. Sounds like the Frost free bib did not have proper drainage or negative drainage, back towards the house





With an attached hose its not gonna drain.



So why did contractor B do the landscaping for free???


And I'm going with neither as to who is at fault. I'm sure the national isn't seeing it this way.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Great answers again. Ok the answer was Contractor A. "A" did the initial services but did not check the domestic water system since the water was ON and there was no visible leaks. The hose bib at the spicket did NOT leak until that spicket was turned ON. 

Contractor B turned the water on to the house so the spicket could be used for irrigation of the new landscaping with incorrect inspection results uploaded by Contractor A. 

Personally I think Contractor B BUT the Insurance and Service Companies thought different. Ah well I got paid very well for the mitigation and drying


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Should have been the guy who did the dewint. I put a brass cap on ALL exterior spiggots and turn them on when I do a pressure test. I have caught quite a few froze and busted frost frees that where fine with the valve of.....


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> Great answers again. Ok the answer was Contractor A. "A" did the initial services but did not check the domestic water system since the water was ON and there was no visible leaks. The hose bib at the spicket did NOT leak until that spicket was turned ON.
> 
> Contractor B turned the water on to the house so the spicket could be used for irrigation of the new landscaping with incorrect inspection results uploaded by Contractor A.
> 
> Personally I think Contractor B BUT the Insurance and Service Companies thought different. Ah well I got paid very well for the mitigation and drying


Here is what I do not understand...
Company A does nothing as the water is on...the leak described is behind the ball valve on the spigot. that is outside the wall. So if there is damage to the system behind the wall the basement should have had water in it when company A was there.....
unless there was serious time between A&B at the property????
That is the part that don't make sense to me...


----------



## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> Should have been the guy who did the dewint. I put a brass cap on ALL exterior spiggots and turn them on when I do a pressure test. I have caught quite a few froze and busted frost frees that where fine with the valve of.....


....and that is why you are one of the "top tier" contractors and NOT a hacklist flunkie find. You have common sense, where most others wouldn't even think of a solution to checking a hose bib.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Cleanup,

This happened 2-3 weeks after initial completed. It was the first time I saw a system not leaking with the water on until the spicket was actually turned on.We found the origination of the leak with our Thermal Imaging Camera and removed a section of drywall and we turned the water on to see the visible leak but NO leak. The Plumber showed up & had his helper turn on the spicket and water went spraying everywhere. 

It put a shiver in me thinking how many 1000's of winterizes we completed where the water was ON upon initial entry. I can attest that we never went around turning outside spickets on to see if they leaked while running. 

Makes a guy think.....


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Cleanup,

This happened 2-3 weeks after initial completed. It was the first time I saw a system not leaking with the water on until the spicket was actually turned on.We found the origination of the leak with our Thermal Imaging Camera and removed a section of drywall and we turned the water on to see the visible leak but NO leak. The Plumber showed up & had his helper turn on the spicket and water went spraying everywhere. 

It put a shiver in me thinking how many 1000's of winterizes we completed where the water was ON upon initial entry. I can attest that we never went around turning outside spickets on to see if they leaked while running. 

Makes a guy think.....


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Mtmnpro,

Property was never winterized as it is out of season thus no dewinterize.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> Mtmnpro,
> 
> Property was never winterized as it is out of season thus no dewinterize.




That's a problem. Really nobody at fault here i guess. I see people leave hoses hooked up to outside spigots all the time. This is a dangerous practice. I always suggest putting a Y on the bib with a hose hooked to one side and a way to drain it if you leave the hose connected.

On another note, Always cap your shower heads and turn on shower valve to pressure test. I can't tell you how many stand pipes i have found freeze busted this way..............


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> On another note, Always cap your shower heads and turn on shower valve to pressure test. I can't tell you how many stand pipes i have found freeze busted this way..............





You wanna know why?????


Because of the hacks using 2 gallon electric compressors that do not put out enough CFM.

I always took my shower heads off and cycled the shower valves multiple times. 
Never any issues.


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

Cleanupman said:


> Was the property winterized????
> 
> Oh and it's the pipes fault for breaking...
> 
> ...


Right on as for the joint being internal and if the bib only leaked when water was on then a wint would have NOT found that... Turn on bib and purge water which in MOST cases is a gallon not enough to leak internally or find the broken pipe in this case. What I was saying is that if frost free bibs are not installed with PLEANTY of fall (drain) then the water pools in the extension of the bib and can crack. Frost free bibs have the valve at teh end of the pipe where it connects to the supply and thus are back in the wall and not as subject to freezing. HIGHLY doubtful that a plumber woul have found that damage either if they were to have done hte wint and it is their area of experticse !!


----------



## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

BPWY said:


> You wanna know why?????
> 
> 
> Because of the hacks using 2 gallon electric compressors that do not put out enough CFM.
> ...


Thats what I use and have NEVER had a wint come back on me I dont leave until the system is FULLY pressurized and when purging the lines ONLY when I mist is comming out do I consider it complete. I prefer using a slower and cautious way of winterizing because of finding water valves that have been removed from pipes and if I had a heavy hitter compressor we would of had a flood to clean up. Also there is only so much water you can push out of a pipe so the extra CFM does nothing


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> HIGHLY doubtful that a plumber would have found that damage either if they were to have done hte wint and it is their area of experticse !!



Actually if you know anything about plumbing common sense would tell you to test the frost free for previous damage by capping the bib and turning it on during a pressure test. Same goes on a shower head. VERY simple to do on a wint and a dewint. I have gotten approvals to replace leaky bibs and shower stand pipes on a wint/dewint many times. These 2 things are the MOST MISSED leaks in a home.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

It cn happen to carpet cleaners as well. http://sfs.jondon.com/8390/resources/quicktips/watch-out-for-hidden-rupture-hose-bibs-this-spring


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

A simple 30 second test by the initial SVS vendor and this would not have happened. Yeah it takes 30 seconds to do it per bib but this extra step is why the brokers love me. Hook a pressure gauge to the bib, Turn it on till it reads, Turn it off and watch gauge. If pressure drops you have a breech................







. http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/9/8/6/8/7/ar120551120478689.jpg


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Splinterpicker said:


> Thats what I use and have NEVER had a wint come back on me I dont leave until the system is FULLY pressurized and when purging the lines ONLY when I mist is comming out do I consider it complete. I prefer using a slower and cautious way of winterizing because of finding water valves that have been removed from pipes and if I had a heavy hitter compressor we would of had a flood to clean up. Also there is only so much water you can push out of a pipe so the extra CFM does nothing






What CFM do those smallies put out? 2 to 4?

1/2'' copper is gonna flow a lot more than that.


I suppose its possible that if enough time and care is taken you could wint with a bicycle pump. But its going to take a very damn long time.
My point to a gas powered compressor is that you can get more wints done in a day.


----------

