# Insurance- How can a company require I carry insurance from a company they recommend?



## Guest (Mar 12, 2012)

So I have gone through all the proper steps to become a business and secure insurance. Now that I am applying to companies, they are telling me I have to carry insurance from a company they suggest. Did I just screw myself on a year's worth of general liability? And thank God I haven't purchased the E&O yet! What if each company requires a different carrier!?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2012)

My responce would be.....If your going to pay for it ill use your company, and if not i will use company of my choosing since I PAY FOR IT!!!!


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## APlusPPGroup (Apr 14, 2012)

They cannot tell you who you have to use. They would be restricting how you operate and the law won't allow it. 

Worst case scenario, they just won't send you any work. You don't want to work with anyone who has a requirement like that. They are walking a fine line, telling you who you have to use.

I would just tell them that, if the insurance policy you purchased doesn't work FOR them, you'd rather not work WITH them.

You might be surprised at their response. They may send work anyway so stand your ground. 

Bottom line is......... NO ONE tells you how to run your business!

Linda


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

*Insurance*

I had that happen, I told them that I use who I want as long as the coverage is the same. When they refused I just declined working with them.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2012)

It is called  being a control freak...just walk away from the problems before you work for him. Imagine when it is time to get paid and you didn't nail the nail with the right brand hammer. Believe me, I'm talking from experience.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2012)

I agree with all of the above. Once you bend over it's all down hill.:blink:


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## JenkinsHB (Apr 11, 2012)

The biggest pitfall is getting E&O insurance that doesn't actually cover you for what you are doing. There are only a few E&O providers that specialize in property preservation. I think most of the big guys just want to make sure you've got the right stuff.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

I am all for getting the proper E&O insurance and will take any suggestions on the companies to go to. I purchased the general liability because I knew I had to have it to even think about getting started. I was just dumbfounded when the place told me I had to use their general liability. Made me wonder if there was a kickback.


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## JenkinsHB (Apr 11, 2012)

I've never run into anyone requiring a specific liability. But I have with e&o. Don't listen to these other guys that aren't even in the industry.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm surprised at the responses here.

I disagree with all of them.

So the company wants you to use their carrier. Two of my nationals will only work with the same 3 companies that have industry specific policies.

So you paid for a years of insurance. You know you can cancel that and get a refund?

But the real point is, your in business and this **** happens. Your surprised that you might have a hurdle to go through? Then your not really serious by trying hard.

This can be a great business if you don't listen to all the whiners here and people who tell you what you ought to do from their keyboard.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

home615 said:


> Made me wonder if there was a kickback.







Your thinking is on the right track.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

We've gotten this notice from 2 of our nationals as well. By April of next year we have to switch to 1 of the 4 "approved" E&O carriers. I completely agree with you guys -- it's C**P -- but really, if I tell them to take a hike, they will tell me to go take a hike and I can't really afford that!! We carry E&O altho not from any of those 4 companies because the cost with them was so ridiculuously high. According to my general liability insurance agent, he says there is no reason why we have to carry it anyway but it was a catch-22 -- if you don't have it, you don't work. If there is some "polite" way to say NO to the 'demand' order, I would love to hear it! I certainly don't want to but really don't see a way around it without losing my clients...and I'm really trying to avoid changing the locks on my own house!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

JenkinsHB said:


> I've never run into anyone requiring a specific liability. But I have with e&o. Don't listen to these other guys that aren't even in the industry.


FAS is the only company that has demanded I carry E&O.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

MidwestP&P said:


> We've gotten this notice from 2 of our nationals as well. By April of next year we have to switch to 1 of the 4 "approved" E&O carriers. I completely agree with you guys -- it's C**P -- but really, if I tell them to take a hike, they will tell me to go take a hike and I can't really afford that!! We carry E&O altho not from any of those 4 companies because the cost with them was so ridiculuously high. According to my general liability insurance agent, he says there is no reason why we have to carry it anyway but it was a catch-22 -- if you don't have it, you don't work. If there is some "polite" way to say NO to the 'demand' order, I would love to hear it! I certainly don't want to but really don't see a way around it without losing my clients...and I'm really trying to avoid changing the locks on my own house!


the only thing that I can think of is that those 4 companies who they say you have to go with might have a policy that will cover you. Perhaps, FREMONT can assist with this one.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

STARBABY said:


> FAS is the only company that has demanded I carry E&O.


that's odd...all of the nationals that we are with require us to carry it. the regionals we do work for do not.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

COST of DOING Business!


EVERYBODY gets paid.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

We informed these Nationals that sent us notices that either
a. They did not supply us with the sufficient volume to justify carrying their specific insurance.
b. Our current GL and E/O policies covered all work that we were qualified and licensed to perform.

They all backed off and continued to send work. The bottom line to them is how many other contractors do they have in your area. Ours, not so many, so they let it go.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

MidwestP&P said:


> We've gotten this notice from 2 of our nationals as well. By April of next year we have to switch to 1 of the 4 "approved" E&O carriers. I completely agree with you guys -- it's C**P -- but really, if I tell them to take a hike, they will tell me to go take a hike and I can't really afford that!! We carry E&O altho not from any of those 4 companies because the cost with them was so ridiculuously high. According to my general liability insurance agent, he says there is no reason why we have to carry it anyway but it was a catch-22 -- if you don't have it, you don't work. If there is some "polite" way to say NO to the 'demand' order, I would love to hear it! I certainly don't want to but really don't see a way around it without losing my clients...and I'm really trying to avoid changing the locks on my own house!





During the next 12 months I'd wrack every brain cell that you have to come up with some plans to diversify.
In P&P's current business model it is not a good place to stay long term!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

For those who don't understand Errors and Omissions insurance (E&O) in the P&P industry, here's a quick primer:

*General Liability:* covers you for work you performed
*Example:* you install a new staircase; somebody falls on the staircase and gets hurt - they claim your work was defective - GL pays to defend you or pays the claim​

*E&O:* covers you for information you provided (or should have provided) - hence the _ERROR or OMISSION_
*Example:* you fail to report a roof leak even though your photos show water stains on the ceiling - client claims you are responsible for all the new water and mold damage - E&O policy _may_ cover the loss​

In many cases the quality of the work you perform is *FAR* less relevant than the information you provide to clients. In P&P, the banks and nationals woefully underpay for the information they hold vendors accountable for - they expect full-blown home inspections to be covered by the fee to change a lock, winterize, or even for the privilege of submitting a bid (i.e. free).


*So why do nationals require you to use their select E&O carriers?*
1) It's easier for them to submit a claim against your policy; especially after you quit doing work for them because you figured out that it's not worth it​2) They argue that these "select" carriers have a better understanding of the P&P industry (honestly, they probably do have a better understanding)​3) It's easier for them to submit a claim against your policy; especially after you quit doing work for them because you figured out that it's not worth it​


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Forgive me but I need to rant a moment. 

Why do so many of these other trades users on here feel the need to interject into a conversation they know nothing about? Nor do they have the insight to offer credible input? It's downright frustrating to see these posts that offer absolutely no value to the conversation being had. 
My take is this: A: They just want to feel important and boost their thread count B: They are of the "know it all" type 
or the more likely.... C. They are doing pp work and simply won't fess up to it out of shame

I don't do any electrical work. I wouldn't even think to go into the electrical forum and start telling others how to run their business, or offering advice on something I have very limited knowledge of. 

Rant over!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

BPWY said:


> During the next 12 months I'd wrack every brain cell that you have to come up with some plans to diversify.
> In P&P's current business model it is not a good place to stay long term!


Yes, we have come to this exact conclusion! We've been in this biz for over 15 years. Really started going downhill when the big mortgage mess happened. Funny, we made more money when there were fewer foreclosures. I don't see the industry changing for the better either. Too bad. Just not sure which direction to move toward... anyone else "diversifying"??:sad:


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Been working on the diversification plan for about 2 years now. So far it's worked out very well. 99% out the door of the pp world, and not regretting a bit of it thus far.

..and I completely agree. The crap started rolling downhill around '08 and has gotten worse ever since. I'm not saying it's a bad business to be in, I just wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

P3+ said:


> Been working on the diversification plan for about 2 years now. So far it's worked out very well. 99% out the door of the pp world, and not regretting a bit of it thus far.
> 
> ..and I completely agree. The crap started rolling downhill around '08 and has gotten worse ever since. I'm not saying it's a bad business to be in, I just wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.


Can I ask what direction you've decided to go in?


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Oops -- maybe I should have looked at your company info! I'm guessing home repair/remodeling?!


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## TNTSERVICES (Apr 12, 2012)

P3+ said:


> Forgive me but I need to rant a moment.
> 
> Why do so many of these other trades users on here feel the need to interject into a conversation they know nothing about? Nor do they have the insight to offer credible input? It's downright frustrating to see these posts that offer absolutely no value to the conversation being had.
> My take is this: A: They just want to feel important and boost their thread count B: They are of the "know it all" type
> ...


Let's face it, most anyone could do P&P work. So it's nothing like you going over to the electrical forum and giving advice. They have to be licensed and trained, you don't. So I am not sure what your beef is seeing that you are 99% out of P&P any way. 

And maybe we find it entertaining that 99% of P&P threads are rants to begin with. :whistling


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Thank you for cementing my point.


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## TNTSERVICES (Apr 12, 2012)

P3+ said:


> Thank you for cementing my point.


Please do explain how P&P is the same as electrical.

My guess is that you will have another useless "post increasing" rant and won't bother to educate us poor dumb contractors on how difficult it is to understand how to take pictures, winterize pipes, and change a friggin' lock. :laughing:

And maybe while your at it explain how that is the same as figuring the load on a circuit or what the heck does it mean when a circuit is out of phase? :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

P3+ said:


> Forgive me but I need to rant a moment.
> 
> Why do so many of these other trades users on here feel the need to interject into a conversation they know nothing about? Nor do they have the insight to offer credible input? It's downright frustrating to see these posts that offer absolutely no value to the conversation being had.
> My take is this: A: They just want to feel important and boost their thread count B: They are of the "know it all" type
> ...


I didn't see any posts from an electrical contractors. Why did you choose to belittle them as a group?


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

txgencon said:


> I didn't see any posts from an electrical contractors. Why did you choose to belittle them as a group?


Those dammmmed lectricians..... Puttin wire an stuff everywhere...:cursing::wallbash:


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

What other trades? I don't see hardly anything one would call outside of the PP and REO realm in this thread. Please explain what it is that this mysterious group of trades does not understand.



P3+ said:


> Forgive me but I need to rant a moment.
> 
> Why do so many of these other trades users on here feel the need to interject into a conversation they know nothing about? Nor do they have the insight to offer credible input? It's downright frustrating to see these posts that offer absolutely no value to the conversation being had.
> My take is this: A: They just want to feel important and boost their thread count B: They are of the "know it all" type
> ...


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Please do explain how P&P is the same as electrical.
> 
> My guess is that you will have another useless "post increasing" rant and won't bother to educate us poor dumb contractors on how difficult it is to understand how to take pictures, winterize pipes, and change a friggin' lock. :laughing:






Nobody said you don't understand how to take pics and the other items you mentioned.


What you do not have the first foggy clue about is dealing with the banks, the nationals, and the regional companies that CONTROL the P&P industry. The reason I say you have no clue is because its obvious the by the things you say. 

But since all the dumb P&P contractors don't know what they are doing why don't you sign up with about 5 to 8 of these companies for a year.
And then we'll see your attitude change.

Again the point is made..... the P&P contractors don't go to the electrical forums, or the plumbing forums or the general forums and tell them that they are clues about the industry they are in. 
So why were all of you cry babies complaining about the P&P forum to the point of getting it throttled??????????????????????????????????????


And don't bother with the comments about "if its so bad why don't you just quit". They are old and tired. Kinda like "the check is in the mail".
There ARE MANY former general contractors that were forced to turn to P&P when the economy turned sour in their communities. There are few if any other opportunities available for them if they wanted to feed little Johnny and Sally and the Mrs and provide a house for them to live in. 

Its pretty low to belittle another man's efforts to provide for his family.
As long as hes doing it legitimately.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

txgencon said:


> I didn't see any posts from an electrical contractors. Why did you choose to belittle them as a group?







No one was belittling anybody. 
Perhaps some comprehension of what was written would be helpful????




> I wouldn't even think to go into the electrical forum and start telling others how to run their business, or offering advice on something I have very limited knowledge of.




The electrical forum was merely an example of what he was referring to.


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## TNTSERVICES (Apr 12, 2012)

BPWY said:


> Nobody said you don't understand how to take pics and the other items you mentioned.
> 
> 
> What you do not have the first foggy clue about is dealing with the banks, the nationals, and the regional companies that CONTROL the P&P industry. The reason I say you have no clue is because its obvious the by the things you say.
> ...


A) How do you know what I know? I have not made any comment concerning P&P until a FORMER P&P contractor started whining about non P&P contractors chiming in, when in fact they did not.

B) What did I say in a few sentences that some how you know all about me, but after reading P&P thread after P&P thread I still am too dumb to understand what you guys are trying to say? What do you do that is not understandable from someone looking in from the outside? That it is a low pay situation. That it is a net 30, 60 or 90? That it's getting harder and harder? That a provider requires insurance from a list of approved providers?

C) You know what's old and tired, the fact that we have to keep saying, if it's so bad get out. We wouldn't have to say that if it wasn't complaint after complaint thread. Hell the MODs had to set you guys straight with the bitchin'

D) Cry babies? :laughing: Now if that's not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. :whistling

E) There are plenty of opportunities out there. It seems that P&P guys would rather have jobs handed to them than go out and dig up different work. If I am wrong let me know, but from what I understand, you get the necessary insurance and sign up with these national companies, they then send you work orders. You don't do really any leg work on finding the work, just get the work order and complain about how far it is, how low the pay is, that they are slow to pay and demand way too much for way too little? Again, if I am wrong, this is the time to straighten me out. Tell me what it's like. Tell me where I have it wrong. I am only going off of thread after thread of info...

F) I belittled no one. I do believe that he started a rant and I just answered it. It's not like I got on here and started putting down P&P, but again, if I did, please show me.

And BTW, I would have no issue doing P&P work. As long as I could make it profitable, I would do it. And I wouldn't be ashamed to admit it here on CT. I also wouldn't come in here day after day bitchin' and whinin' about it and expect people to keep coddling me and telling me everything will be okay. I would expect these guys to tell me that I need to get out if it's that bad. :thumbsup:


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> A) How do you know what I know? I have not made any comment concerning P&P until a FORMER P&P contractor started whining about non P&P contractors chiming in, when in fact they did not.
> 
> Actually we were told that the reason this forum got the billy club used on it was because of all the bitching from the rest of the site.
> 
> ...




Answers in red. 

Again to your final comment, one man's information to his peers so they don't get screwed by these so many times fraudulent companies is bitching and cry baby to others that don't understand the industry and what its become since 2007.


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## TNTSERVICES (Apr 12, 2012)

BPWY said:


> Answers in red.
> 
> Again to your final comment, one man's information to his peers so they don't get screwed by these so many times fraudulent companies is bitching and cry baby to others that don't understand the industry and what its become since 2007.


But the differnce is, IMO, that all P&P guys do is complain about their industry. We would have the same response from anyone if the electricians complained all the time about their industry. The purpose of CT is not to complain constantly.

Angus's thread made it clear to all of CT the reason for the hammer coming down in P&P had nothing to do with the rest of the forum, but the constant complaining about specific companies and price sharing.

He also said that you guys weren't banned from sharing that information, just not in the public forum.

Again, it wasn't my intention to belittle anyone trying to make a buck, but don't get bent out of shape when you post on a public forum and not everyone who posts is to your liking or qualifications. Take it for what it's worth, ignore it or take it into consideration.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

On the subject of whining.



I've seen A LOT of whining done by licensed contractors about the unlicensed hacks that take work away from them by their cheap bids. Theirs is OK but "whining" in the P&P forum isn't?

What was going on here was no different.

As for taking complaints about a company private what good does that do to the contractor who is new and doesn't know if he should PM Tom, Dick, Harry, TNT, KentWhitten, me or _______________ and ask them about his experiences with company X???

It doesn't do any body any good at that point! The purpose of the forum would be to help other contractors further their chosen line of work. Telling about fraudulent companies to stay away from should be included in that. 

Also for every posting member of a forum there are likely a hundred that don't post but read and/or browse thru the forum for information without ever signing up.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

Simmer down, guys. Bottom line, this is a public forum. Public means everyone gets to participate, and forum means that thoughts are shared.

Instead of "You don't understand", perhaps a more appropriate response is to educate and promote understanding. Instead of "All you ever do is whine", perhaps a bit of looking into the reasons for that is in order.

But I will confess that on my part, I've skimmed the surface of PP and found it not to my liking, so I found other ways to survive instead. Regardless, information sharing is one thing; bashing and character assassination is another. The latter is what there's been a bit too much of here. :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> A) How do you know what I know? I have not made any comment concerning P&P until a FORMER P&P contractor started whining about non P&P contractors chiming in, when in fact they did not.
> 
> B) What did I say in a few sentences that some how you know all about me, but after reading P&P thread after P&P thread I still am too dumb to understand what you guys are trying to say? What do you do that is not understandable from someone looking in from the outside? That it is a low pay situation. That it is a net 30, 60 or 90? That it's getting harder and harder? That a provider requires insurance from a list of approved providers?
> 
> ...


Good god I actually agree with you. Oh man.......


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Guy gets into a fight about issues outside his field. Sounds like an angry fellow.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

summithomeinc said:


> Good god I actually agree with you. Oh man.......


World is ending!


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

BamBamm5144 said:


> World is ending!


Maybe....was just looking to see if the sky was falling


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## TNTSERVICES (Apr 12, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Guy gets into a fight about issues outside his field. Sounds like an angry fellow.


Who's fighting?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

TNTSERVICES said:


> Let's face it, most anyone could do P&P work. So it's nothing like you going over to the electrical forum and giving advice. They have to be licensed and trained, you don't.


Rob thats alittle presumptuous. The good guys are licensed, but that doesn't mean they all are. Just like there's tons on remodeling specialist that are NOT licensed. We all have to be trained, even you. Although there's lots of unskilled people doing the work there are many that are skilled. It is what it is. You may find it annoying that there's lots 'o' complaining , I really don't think its anymore than the crews getting together at a bar and doing some bitching from a day at work. What's wrong with that. That goes to others as well. What you guys never went to the bar after work and did alittle bitchin? I think they made a show about such.Cheers.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

I'd say that no one can let this go, so it's time to close it


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