# Pollution Liability & Bleach & Kilz.....



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

For you certified mold guys out there, Wannabee & others. Say your a licensed mold remediation specialist and you accept an order from a bank to bleach & kilz and for some silly reason you complete it. Would your pollution liability underwriter stand by you if someone got sick and sued you? After all your just doing what you where told by the bank right??:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes::whistling2:


----------



## wmhlc (Oct 8, 2012)

On my pollution insurance they make you a fill out a couple page guideline pages on how you complete the work and what chemicals you use and what procedures you practice. 

I don't use bleach, I do use IAQ, its oxide based cleaner similar to bleach and they didn't say anything about it and they approved me for mold, asbestos, and roofing materials.

I really don't see why you would even use bleach, IAQ is only couple bucks more than bleach and doesn't burn you and burn your eyes.

My pollution coverage for 1 year based on 150k in sales is $4500 for the year.


----------



## JDRM (Apr 16, 2012)

Where can you buy that stuff?


----------



## wmhlc (Oct 8, 2012)

Jon don
Jendco

Just about any company that sells chemicals or supplies to water damage and insurance restoration companies.

Carpet cleaning companies use a ton of the stuff

I also don't use killz my insurance agent told me they would cancel coverage if we use it. We use oil based or I really like surface shield, because it almost clear and just leaves a green film so it looks like your not covering up mold. We also scrub, vac and clean areas, not just cover it up. When we are done your cant even till mold was at the property


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

For coverage issues you are covered IF you use IICRC S520 standards. Without proper protocols (followed exactly) which means moisture charts/maps, 3 day minimum on readings, cause off loss fixed, testing by 3rd party etc etc YOU WILL LOSE if sued.

Everyone wants to say they "know what they are doing" and living in a bubble and thats fine until....it happens to you. I admit that our restoration company has been slack on some documentation on past cases and we run a risk but 95% has 20 pages of documentation to support the scope of work and proper treatment procedures.

Its funny this reoccuring thread topic keeps popping up  Today I had the pleasure of being an expert witness at an appraisal hearing where the contractor did a "ok" job on a mold restoration project but homeowners where fighting to have the neccesary corrections made at a cost of $30,000... The Ins Co who represented the contractor lost $66,000. The work itself did not lose the case but the missing DOCUMENTATION. The good thing was the contractor had pollution liability that provided his defense costs BUT had ZERO liability on the award since he did not or could not prove he followed S520 Guidelines. Poor fella...

If anyone wants to do mold work I strongly suggest you purchase an S520 Guideline book and follow it.... It might save ya


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Too many people think the bank work order and disclaimers will protect them. All it takes is a sharp lawyer to get past both of those....


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Yep to the above. LEO and his wife and little kids bought a repo that had a 40k mold job done by one of our competitors. 6 months later everyone is sick. He gets an air test done and voila, there is mold. Incomplete and poor documentation by both the contractor and the client, work order language was vague, but it all ran downhill. The HO went after the former lender, who went after the National, who went after the contractor, who didn't have complete insurance for the work they did. Because of the volume they get from this national, they paid out of pocket (not sure the amount). Very hard lesson.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Yep to the above. LEO and his wife and little kids bought a repo that had a 40k mold job done by one of our competitors. 6 months later everyone is sick. He gets an air test done and voila, there is mold. Incomplete and poor documentation by both the contractor and the client, work order language was vague, but it all ran downhill. The HO went after the former lender, who went after the National, who went after the contractor, who didn't have complete insurance for the work they did. Because of the volume they get from this national, they paid out of pocket (not sure the amount). Very hard lesson.


Let's go back to the bleach and kilz. If bleach and kilz is performed and the house is freshly painted, who is liable if somebody gets sick when the buyer buys the property as is? Granted the buyer should have a home inspection but even a home inspector can miss mold. The only real way to find mold is an indoor air quality test and I would venture to guess 95 percent of buyers never have one of these performed due to the cost. I'm sure there has to be some case law somewhere on this as in my opinion it constitutes fraud being your covering up a known hazard if you bleach and kilz.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

I do not believe the contractor submitted an air test after completion, nor did the national ask for it. Sloppy on both ends. That is my understanding. Mold disclosure forms were completed, work was done, paperwork filed, etc. Regardless, the guys should have known better and they got yanked by the short hairs because they saw a mid 5 figure job. I'm sure he had a sphincter puckering when his insurance agent gave him the bad news. We have a decent relationship and we don't step on eachother's toes. He didn't give any more details and I didn't ask, however, everyone needs to understand that mold remediation is not simply a payment for services rendered end of story job.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> Let's go back to the bleach and kilz. If bleach and kilz is performed and the house is freshly painted, who is liable if somebody gets sick when the buyer buys the property as is?


The guy at the back of the line is.

Even a house bought "as is" will have disclosure forms for issues like mold.
No different than a meth house.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

What I have always seen is this:

You touch it you own it. The ONLY protection you have is a "clean" IAQ test performed by a 3rd party. I know the Service Companies dont like to approve the cost of those tests but at the very very least get certified to perform your own tests, buy the equipment and have a disinterested person with you while doing the test and all the way to the Post Office to mail to lab (so nobody can accuse of tampering). 

I am involved currently on a $12k job for a lawyer/investor bought an "as is" foreclosure who is suing the contractor who "dried" the house after a water loss by squeegie and carpet removal.

Case2: Investor bought an "as is" & discovered $20k+ in mold behind walls and suing Service Company, Realtor and 3 contractors who worked on home.

Contractors may win but will pay the legal costs of defending BUT the SHAM here is the Service Co doesnt care SO they just turn the claim into the Contractors Ins Policy (remember additional Insureds requirement) which KILLS the contractors defense.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> the SHAM here is the Service Co doesnt care SO they just turn the claim into the Contractors Ins Policy (remember additional Insureds requirement) which KILLS the contractors defense.


Exactly. The National will steer you toward a carrier who has customized a policy to their needs (not yours) and then require every contractor they use to sign up. Mold abatement thru a national is playing against the house.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

GTX,

IF memory serves me correct I believe your in Missouri? We will have to get meet up some time! I was informed that Mo has new Statutes trying to be passed at the State level requiring IICRC or IAQA certification for Mold.. ?


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

We are multi state and yes, regs and licensing are evolving everywhere. We stopped doing remediation for nationals once I saw the claims biting guys years after the fact. We took our chips off that table and moved over to the private room. Better return and less risk.


----------

