# MSI Bullying Tactics went to far



## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

MSI will be held responsible. 
They send us a int. secure order on the 20th of Feb. with the 2 day turn around nonsense or you will be held responsible for any plumbing damage. Just one problem the house was sold on the 13th of Feb.

Long story short.

MSI legal team sends us a demand letter to replace stolen items 1100 bucks in electronics. That after there ( 1 sided ) investigation they believe the home owner and we are to pay for so called missing items or they will forward our information to police. This my friend is extortion and your legal team are not very bright sending us that in writing. Funny they left out the part of the house had already sold and the order should have been never sent out.
Hey MSI you can not send out orders to break into homes that you have no rights too. Its a crime here in Philly. How dare MSI and your client put us at risk.
MSI refuses to give us the clients name who placed the order so the old bank on record was added to our claim. 

Be very careful dealing with all the thief's and scammers in this industry.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Bigtrucker said:


> MSI will be held responsible.
> They send us a int. secure order on the 20th of Feb. with the 2 day turn around nonsense or you will be held responsible for any plumbing damage. Just one problem the house was sold on the 13th of Feb.
> 
> Long story short.
> ...



Good lesson to ALWAYS check the status of a house BEFORE you secure. It's public record here and i would guess in most states. I ALWAYS call the local title company in the area i am working in before i secure a home. I have had NUMEROUS homes that have sold weeks before a secure order was issued. The Nationals still will want to argue with you though. Actually gave a new homeowner (they where remodeling before move in) a coordinators phone # a few years ago and then stood there and listened while he read them the riot act. Was pretty funny. Got a panicked call from the coordinator a few minutes later to cease all work, this after she chastised me a half hour before because i refused to follow "the banks" instructions and secure the home........:angel::angel:


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

mtmtnman said:


> Good lesson to ALWAYS check the status of a house BEFORE you secure. It's public record here and i would guess in most states. I ALWAYS call the local title company in the area i am working in before i secure a home. I have had NUMEROUS homes that have sold weeks before a secure order was issued. The Nationals still will want to argue with you though. Actually gave a new homeowner (they where remodeling before move in) a coordinators phone # a few years ago and then stood there and listened while he read them the riot act. Was pretty funny. Got a panicked call from the coordinator a few minutes later to cease all work, this after she chastised me a half hour before because i refused to follow "the banks" instructions and secure the home........:angel::angel:



Um NO 
Do more work for them for free don't think so.
We cover 10 counties do you know how much time that would cost us and they wont just give you the information and I'm not going to every court house to check.

So the contractor takes the blame.
Ill hold the company responsible for issuing an ill legal break in order.
A company issues a break in order they better Damn well have the right information and if they don't they will pay for THE mistake not me.
I'm not and will never be ok with someone risking the safety of our crews cause they didn't think it was important to cancel a work order we all have cell phones for crying out loud. make the call.
Its about time they are held responsible.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Big Trucker,

We had a similar thing happen to us in '08. 

We were not named in the lawsuit that followed BUT M*S wanted us to pay for all the legal bills and turned a claim on our E&O. We had to sue the law firm representing our E&O to stop the claim filed on us (so much for YOUR Ins Co protecting YOU ). We never signed the addition insured agreement in our contract so there wasn't any valid claim. 

Good luck to ya


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Bigtrucker said:


> Um NO
> Do more work for them for free don't think so.
> We cover 10 counties do you know how much time that would cost us and they wont just give you the information and I'm not going to every court house to check.
> 
> ...



What state are you in? Never had a problem getting this info in Montana Idaho or Washington. Usually a 5 minute phone call but it could save your ass. And your NOT doing work for them, Your doing work for yourself to keep you out of hot water. Part of being a professional in this business.....


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

You can also call the listing agent to verify if the for sale sign is on the property. That's pretty painless. Usually takes a few days for the sign to come down after closing.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> Big Trucker,
> 
> We had a similar thing happen to us in '08.
> 
> ...



Yup, And i the end it still cost you although the attorney was likely less that the $5,000 deductible on your E&O. This is PRECISELY why i make EVERY EFFORT to verify the status of the property BEFORE i secure it. 8 years and it so far has worked flawlessly. Lost count on how many i DID NOT secure due to info i found. Let someone else take the fall. I don't have time for that......


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> What state are you in? Never had a problem getting this info in Montana Idaho or Washington. Usually a 5 minute phone call but it could save your ass. And your NOT doing work for them, Your doing work for yourself to keep you out of hot water. Part of being a professional in this business.....


Couldn't agree more with the Mountain Man. It's your obligation to do your due diligence to ensure the property is being correctly secured. Moreover, it's even more imperative for you and your employees well being, and financial well being. It's foolish in this day and time to just brazenly do any sort of work on a property without verifying it's status if it is a first time visit. I'm sorry Bigtrucker, but you know exactly the mindset and mentality of the cubicle workers you are dealing with on a daily basis. To assume their word/instructions as scripture is asking for trouble with deep consequences.


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

mtmtnman said:


> What state are you in? Never had a problem getting this info in Montana Idaho or Washington. Usually a 5 minute phone call but it could save your ass. And your NOT doing work for them, Your doing work for yourself to keep you out of hot water. Part of being a professional in this business.....


He stated Philly in a previous post. I can guarantee it's not as simple as a 5 minute phone call!!! 
Philadelphia City Hall probably has more employees then most counties in Montana, Idaho and Washington!
I'm sure in Montana you can call Betty at the local town hall and chit chat about the weather, the local high school football team and get the info you need on a property, NOT GONNA HAPPEN IN PHILLY!
You have to go down to City Hall, spend $15 to park, take a number and wait 2 hours for your turn to speak with some idiot who probably won't be able to help you.
Now I'm not sticking up for Bigtrucker either! I think he is setting himself up for trouble down the road. Thats the problem when you get your orders from middleman, another reason to "Just Say NO"
Again, if you live in the sticks and get blind work orders then sure, call and check up on it, if you live in a major city, probably not going to be easy.
All of my rekeys come directly from the agent so I don't have these problems.


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

On a side note, Philadelphia's City Hall is actually a beautiful and fascinating building!
Here are some fun facts.
It is the largest municipal building in the US (Larger then the US Capitol Building) and one of the largest in the world.
It's the tallest masonry building in the world.
It has 22' think granite wall foundation.
Took 30 years to build.
There are over 250 marble and bronze sculptures inside and out.
The city of Philadelphia was going to tear it down in the 1950's and build a new one but the cost of demolition, $25 Million dollars, would have literally cost more then building a new one and would have bankrupted the city!


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*All of you guys should know better*

but I'm gonna post it anyway, since no one mentioned it. 

Do not do secures on properties that do not already have an FTV sticker posted by someone not affiliated with your company. 

When you are both the occupancy inspector and the initial secure contractor, you are just asking for trouble, and it is just a roll of the dice and a matter of time. 

When you have an FTV sticker posted for at least a couple days, and a valid work order from the client along with your own documentation you will be OK, even in the event of an error. 

If you are taking all of the responsibility willingly, they will be happy to let you have it. 

Don't be a dupe.

I actually like to see the Sheriff's Sale notice and an FTV sticker. That is not always possible though.


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

P3+ said:


> Couldn't agree more with the Mountain Man. It's your obligation to do your due diligence to ensure the property is being correctly secured. Moreover, it's even more imperative for you and your employees well being, and financial well being. It's foolish in this day and time to just brazenly do any sort of work on a property without verifying it's status if it is a first time visit. I'm sorry Bigtrucker, but you know exactly the mindset and mentality of the cubicle workers you are dealing with on a daily basis. To assume their word/instructions as scripture is asking for trouble with deep consequences.


Due Diligence of course.
Knock on door no answer.
Can see inside and its empty.
Neighbor says its empty.
Were going in that's due diligence.

Doing above I can not get arrested. With a work order of course.
Detective who investigated this case.
I quote his direct words
ok here we have a crew who broke into a private residence.
We cant arrest them they have a work order from the bank and the crew did nothing wrong neighbor said it was empty. Its not like they entered a home that they knew was occupied. Quote so they are off the HOOK.
So we know what happened here the bank issued a work order that shouldn't have been issued. Could I arrest the person from the bank and hold them accountable criminally. "No" Then he said if they did that to my ****ing house
there would be hell to pay and civilly they are toast. They entered my home because THEY didn't do there job.

Some say oh they made a mistake and issued a break in order its ok = passive/ enabler

I'm not that someone

I'm who the hell they think they are sending a break in order that wasn't valid


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Bigtrucker said:


> Due Diligence of course.
> Knock on door no answer.
> Can see inside and its empty.
> Neighbor says its empty.
> ...



It's your deductible bro. I have seen initial secures come the day before closing and when i tell the national this they say "secure it anyway" I FLAT OUT REFUSE! Typically things get crossed up when it gets down to the wire and the home has been reported vacant. Don't think you won't get hung one day, YOU WILL! Wannabe had over 15 years in the business when he got out and you should listen to him as he is a WEALTH of information. You should have some sort of public records search in PA. 11 states are covered by idocs which is a subscription based service here. Today alone in my county their where 69 titles recorded. Over 500 in the last week. It has a 24 hour lag and i will not secure any property in that window.

Start here, Without subscribing you can see if any recent deeds have been recorded. http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/info/Property-Records/PA/ See if the property in question comes up. Their are other services i found but don't know your state well enough to tell you if they would help.

Do you do trash outs without knowing a property has or has not conveyed? I have had a TON of those where either the bank or national jumps the gun. You put WAY to much trust in your clients if you do. All contracts from nationals i have seen say "i the contractor agree to follow all state, county & local laws and regulations" or something such as that. This also means crossing your T's and dotting your i's. 

In the end, the house does not have to be occupied to get in trouble. It belongs to someone other than the person on your work order now and they could sue you and win. Sorry but it's the truth. Will it ever happen? Likely not. COULD it happen? YES, someday it will.

Maybe Wannabee will chime in and tell us about grandmas $10,000 wool couch that wasn't fit for a dog to sleep on. Yup, E&O Bought it..........


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

I've seen contractors and/or their E&O pick up the tab for crackhead Mary's water damaged crap that sat in a house with no roof for months.
I've seen eventual buyers get reimbursed on the contractor's dime for appliances and debris removed from a house they didn't even have a contract on at the time.
I've seen a sub dinged for 4k for removing items from a home the previous owner returned to after 18 months, even though the national (safeguard) confirmed the order in writing.
I also know of a contractor put out of business for completing an eviction order on a property shortly after the national ordered a full rekey, before the redemption period.
This game is run by the house, thus house rules. Who owns the house? Anyone but you.


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> I've seen contractors and/or their E&O pick up the tab for crackhead Mary's water damaged crap that sat in a house with no roof for months.
> I've seen eventual buyers get reimbursed on the contractor's dime for appliances and debris removed from a house they didn't even have a contract on at the time.
> I've seen a sub dinged for 4k for removing items from a home the previous owner returned to after 18 months, even though the national (safeguard) confirmed the order in writing.
> I also know of a contractor put out of business for completing an eviction order on a property shortly after the national ordered a full rekey, before the redemption period.
> This game is run by the house, thus house rules. Who owns the house? Anyone but you.


That's your view

My view you screw me I'm fighting you.
So what your saying is its ok that a bank National Penn writes a break in order. That they don't even own anymore and its on me are you freaking kidding me.
Yea its there rules my azz. Get some balls and if your screwed fight back.
Stop living scared. I could lose everything any day miss a stop sign and wipe out a family.
Some contractors will put up with charge backs, at cost orders and being screwed. 
If I don't do it they will stop sending me work. I might get black balled.
Big deal I don't need them plenty of work out.

Its unbelievable that someone will let someone else screw them.
I'm sure glad your not my dad. 
He taught me to take crap from no one.
To any contractor out there if you are getting screwed fight back don't listen to the crap OH YOU CANT DO NOTHING.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

I understand your point. It's valid, but that isn't my view, it is a fact. Contractors don't understand the SOP of a national and many are like 15 year olds; they think they are invincible and everyone else is just doing it wrong.
It is good to fight back and to tell them you aren't going to swallow the same pill they give to everyone else; it's even better to start your own game.


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

GTX63 said:


> I understand your point. It's valid, but that isn't my view, it is a fact. Contractors don't understand the SOP of a national and many are like 15 year olds; they think they are invincible and everyone else is just doing it wrong.
> It is good to fight back and to tell them you aren't going to swallow the same pill they give to everyone else; it's even better to start your own game.


Yes it is 
Fighting Alitsource we learned a lot.
We work direct for a few local banks and with the one their lawyer shows up at the evictions so we are pretty friendly. I told him what msi did he couldn't believe it. Then we get the extortion letter. 
He could not believe it. He asked to show the letter to another lawyer.
Well that lawyer called me and is taking the case with no money from me.


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Bigtrucker said:


> Yes it is
> Fighting Alitsource we learned a lot.
> We work direct for a few local banks and with the one their lawyer shows up at the evictions so we are pretty friendly. I told him what msi did he couldn't believe it. Then we get the extortion letter.
> He could not believe it. He asked to show the letter to another lawyer.
> Well that lawyer called me and is taking the case with no money from me.



That doesn't make it a winner or worth doing. You are being stubborn here. What GTX is trying to tell you is this is how the game works. It really doesn't matter who messed up there was a mess up. At the end of the day you are the one liable because you did the work and you signed all of the Nationals paperwork. They are indemnified and held harmless for any mistakes you make. These kinds of mistakes happen in this industry and they will happen again.


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## newreo (May 30, 2014)

This is why we ran from this industry as you don't know when and why it's going hit you in the face


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

newreo said:


> This is why we ran from this industry as you don't know when and why it's going hit you in the face


When Safeguard is involved you know for sure it's going to be bad.


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## Newbie (Apr 17, 2015)

But, no matter Who owns the keys to the front door, until said loan is payed off the Bank holds the deed in the end. Which makes it officially the owner.


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## STARBABY (Apr 12, 2012)

rule of thumb if there is any reason I think it isn`t vacant I will not secure it. these companies do not a rats ass about us. if you get arrested they may or may not try to help. I love it when I get one with no posted address and can`t find any info on it online. I even went to the PVA office and they didn`t a idea ,they the double wide was on a 10 tact on off land was owned by the mother. Lady said the there also a single wide trailer on the land ,but only thing that showed up on tax records was the mothers trailer(the third one). I emailed my coordinator this and she sent me a photo of the double wide and send there inspector verified it was the correct property. So a guy they paying $7 to $15 verified ! LOL I turned it in as occupied and let them figure it out.


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## AceVentura (Sep 6, 2015)

Should go back to the old BOA system

1. Gas / Electric on?

2. Signs of property maintained?

3. Call in for an approval code based on BOA's analysis of to proceed or not.

4. Usually any utilities were on it was denied, BOA had the right idea of better safe then sorry.


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## G 3 (May 3, 2015)

AceVentura said:


> 3. Call in for an approval code based on BOA's analysis of to proceed or not.


 
I don't have time to stop and call someone, wait on hold for them, then have to explain the situation. If I think it is occupied, I take the required pictures showing that. If it's questionable, they get the best pictures I can take, and I mark it as occupied. If they don't like my decision, they can pay someone else to go get arrested.


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## AceVentura (Sep 6, 2015)

G 3 said:


> AceVentura said:
> 
> 
> > 3. Call in for an approval code based on BOA's analysis of to proceed or not.
> ...


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

AceVentura said:


> Should go back to the old BOA system
> 
> 1. Gas / Electric on?
> 
> ...


Actually that "old BOA system" you speak of isn't old at all (2013/4), that was only in place for a short time, even when the transition to SG happened it was still in place. Look at it from a legal standpoint...if they put all those safeguards in place with the call in center for approvals on IS's then guess who is left holding the bag if something goes awry....the servicing company and NOT the contractor. It has long been my suspicion that it was stopped because it was much simpler to leave the liability and potential criminal charges to those out in the field making the decisions on securing a seemingly vacant property. 
As en ex Field Manager for a National I would always tell recruits/crews...."if it feels wrong, trust your gut. It's not worth the exposure."


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## AceVentura (Sep 6, 2015)

P3+ said:


> Actually that "old BOA system" you speak of isn't old at all (2013/4), that was only in place for a short time, even when the transition to SG happened it was still in place. Look at it from a legal standpoint...if they put all those safeguards in place with the call in center for approvals on IS's then guess who is left holding the bag if something goes awry....the servicing company and NOT the contractor. It has long been my suspicion that it was stopped because it was much simpler to leave the liability and potential criminal charges to those out in the field making the decisions on securing a seemingly vacant property.
> As en ex Field Manager for a National I would always tell recruits/crews...."if it feels wrong, trust your gut. It's not worth the exposure."


I know for a fact I was using the BOA system in 2012.

Good point on the liabilities your talking about, it makes sense for the field service company to shift liabilities from their perspective. You probably gained a lot of knowledge as a Field Manager, which one did you work for? I was interviewing to become a Field Manager for a larger national a while back, it was to cover a 3 - 4 state area. How did you like the field manager job?


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

AceVentura said:


> I know for a fact I was using the BOA system in 2012.
> 
> Good point on the liabilities your talking about, it makes sense for the field service company to shift liabilities from their perspective. You probably gained a lot of knowledge as a Field Manager, which one did you work for? I was interviewing to become a Field Manager for a larger national a while back, it was to cover a 3 - 4 state area. How did you like the field manager job?


Oh I can't wait for P3 answer to this question.


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

AceVentura said:


> I know for a fact I was using the BOA system in 2012.
> 
> Good point on the liabilities your talking about, it makes sense for the field service company to shift liabilities from their perspective. You probably gained a lot of knowledge as a Field Manager, which one did you work for? I was interviewing to become a Field Manager for a larger national a while back, it was to cover a 3 - 4 state area. How did you like the field manager job?



Let's just say my moral compass wasn't skewed enough to make that a career choice. I did meet some great people along the way (like the Wannabe), but all in all I have a hard time taking direction from anyone on either coast that think they know more about my lifelong state of over 45 years than I do.


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## JoeInPI (Dec 18, 2014)

P3+ said:


> ...but all in all I have a hard time taking direction from anyone on either coast that think they know more about my lifelong state of over 45 years than I do.



Agreed. Reminds me of phone call after phone call we made years ago to someone in Florida who was managing properties in Northern Michigan, telling them that these houses needed to be winterized NOW before damage occured. Of course, they know better than we do, and 2 months later- in February- they issue winterization orders. Too late, every one of the houses had blown up water tanks, water heaters, and boilers. Well done...


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

JoeInPI said:


> Agreed. Reminds me of phone call after phone call we made years ago to someone in Florida who was managing properties in Northern Michigan, telling them that these houses needed to be winterized NOW before damage occured. Of course, they know better than we do, and 2 months later- in February- they issue winterization orders. Too late, every one of the houses had blown up water tanks, water heaters, and boilers. Well done...




Contractor please return to sites and at your cost make all repairs from the damage you allowed to occur.


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

Craigslist Hack said:


> That doesn't make it a winner or worth doing. You are being stubborn here. What GTX is trying to tell you is this is how the game works. It really doesn't matter who messed up there was a mess up. At the end of the day you are the one liable because you did the work and you signed all of the Nationals paperwork. They are indemnified and held harmless for any mistakes you make. These kinds of mistakes happen in this industry and they will happen again.


Petroleum Co., 527 Pa. 1, 588 A.2d 1 (1991). Specifically, in Pennsylvania, words of general import, such as “any and all liability,” do not rise to the level of specificity required for indemnification regarding a party’s own negligence. See DiPietro v. City of Philadelphia, 496 A.2d 407 (Pa.Super. 1985)(en banc); see also Hershey Foods Corp. v. General Electric Service Co., 619 A.2d 285 (Pa.Super. 1992), appeal denied, 536 Pa. 643, 639 A.2d 29 (1993)(finding that a provision which states, “Whether or not” the negligent act was “caused in part by a party indemnified hereunder” to be sufficiently specific to permit indemnification even if the beneficiary of the clause was partly responsible for the harm).
Regarding the clause at issue in Molettiere, the court first ruled that the language was ambiguous as to whether it would apply to acts involving CVS’s own negligence. As a result of that ambiguity, the provision was construed against the drafter—CVS. The court went on to refuse to enforce the indemnity provision at issue because the court determined that the actions of the CVS employee constituted “active” negligence and that enforcing the provision would elevate Cenova to the status of an insurer, which is impermissible under Pennsylvania law.

Based on the fact that the ambiguous provision was construed against CVS, and further based on evidence that CVS was itself actively negligent, the Superior Court overruled the trial judge’s setting aside the jury verdict and reinstated CVS’s liability. In light of the particular result in Molettiere, and the myriad of cases discussed in the court’s opinion, Pennsylvania attorneys should now be able to advise their clients and insurance contacts on the metes and bounds of enforceable indemnity provisions in Pennsylvania and the likelihood of potentially “active” acts negating such clauses. In short, such clauses will only be enforced if the contracting parties’ intent is stated in sufficiently specific language and if the party seeking indemnification was not actively negligent.


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

*Hold these clowns accountable*

You can fight back
Don't listen to any nonsense oh they got great lawyers Hog wash.
There will be no change until you make it change


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## Bigtrucker (Mar 18, 2014)

*M*I up date*

Bad news for M*I
Hey Mac you just lost B******* 
We use to give the bids for you M*I Now we work direct with them.
Just got our second rehab approval. Hey Mac M*I never told us they pay in 3 installments.
1st payment is 1 3rd before you start.
2nd payment half way done
3rd and final payment after job is completed.

Every one of your properties we have contacted the realtor and we are giving special pricing.

We don't add on 25% 

Like taking candy from a baby.

Any contractors giving bids in Delaware, Bucks, Monroe, Lehigh, Berks, Northampton, Montgomery and Phila. counties for M*I
Good luck.

Thanks again for firing us 
Isn't life GREAT


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