# Expanding into the PP Field



## Guest (Sep 11, 2011)

At the beginning of the summer I started a landscaping company as a way to make money during the summer. Through effective advertising and word of mouth the business took off and generated a very steady/healthy cash flow. I'm currently in my second year of college and know that I want to enter the real estate investing field upon graduation. An opportunity arose from landscaping that allowed me to perform a few trash-outs on Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac properties. Everything went great: exceeded company's expectations, received payment on time, and was able to learn an incredible amount in a short period of time. Unfortunately, the company that I performed them for does not operate in my particular area, which leads to the purpose of the thread...

I would like to expand into the PP field in my area. Several opportunities have arisen that would allow me to handle a steady amount of work orders in a 50 mile radius (Anderson, Greenville, Pendleton, and several other counties in the South Carolina area. Who would be the best companies to contact for my particular area? I recently applied for a DUNS number in order to complete my vendor application for the HUD in my area. 



I don't know the most effective way to market myself in this area. I also do not know WHO I should be marketing myself to. I am not desperate for money or business. I have enjoyed working and operating my own small business this summer and have enjoyed the benefits, mainly extra money and flexibility, that it provides.




Thank you in advance for your help. Feel free to ask me any questions. From what I've seen there are some very nice, knowledgeable, and intelligent people on this forum which leads me to want to get to know many of you along with what you know!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2011)

I'd also like to add that I would be interesting in doing cuts on REO's. If someone could direct me to the best companies in my area I would be incredibly thankful!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2011)

You want advise?

quit college and make your fortune. Jmo

Sorry but you need to read more forum threads.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> You want advise?
> 
> quit college and make your fortune. Jmo
> 
> Sorry but you need to read more forum threads.


Or stay in college and find a great paying job. Run your business on the side trying to meet your clients stringent time frames as well as your college deadlines is good training for real life. I'm grateful for the stressful situations I had to manage while in college. Classes, football, my concrete and landscaping business and doing underwriting. Left me no time to f--k around(but made time to do so) But some of the best years and lessons in life I learned in college. People I've networked with etc. 

Best of luck to you!


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

FremontREO said:


> You want advise?
> 
> quit college and make your fortune. Jmo
> 
> Sorry but you need to read more forum threads.


Sorry, but I found your advice* to be more like a troll. Out of boredom I will respond to your underwhelming troll.


First point - Yes, I do want advice*. Obviously I am not going to be the most skilled and knowledgeable PP service provider after several trashouts. You don't know me and I don't know you, but your post that mixes a little sarcasm and a little irony doesn't leave me thinking you're the person to come to for advice. 

Second point - That would be an extremely idiotic move to make. I know you were making a stab at irony, but still. A good friend of mine's father was in the REO business and had giant contracts in the entire states of GA/CA that made him mega-millions. The real estate bubble popped and he got out. From what I've seen he's one of the few people that made it rich off of some aspect of REO properties. If you had had the success he has achieved you would not be on a forum board wasting your time making inconsequential posts. Yeah, I think I might have made this personal.

Third point - I actually am reading more forum threads, but your great advice* does not deserve the credit. I want to learn. I realize reading forum posts is not going to get me near the amount of knowledge and expertise that I desire, but it's a start. I also had a crazy idea that creating a thread specific to my topic of research at the moment might help me get answers from helpful people. So far that has failed, much like your advice*. 



I don't thank you for your worthless advice*, but I do thank you for the couple of minutes of entertainment that I have enjoyed from this response post.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

thanohano44 said:


> Or stay in college and find a great paying job. Run your business on the side trying to meet your clients stringent time frames as well as your college deadlines is good training for real life. I'm grateful for the stressful situations I had to manage while in college. Classes, football, my concrete and landscaping business and doing underwriting. Left me no time to f--k around(but made time to do so) But some of the best years and lessons in life I learned in college. People I've networked with etc.
> 
> Best of luck to you!


Thank you! I was starting to lose hope in this forum.

Managing a 4.0 and business on the side doesn't leave me as much time for Xbox as some of my friends  I enjoy the work that I do. The money is just an externality of the knowledge and contacts that I gain. I honestly would never want to do something like PP as a career/main source of income. The money isn't that great if you're older and trying to support a family and there are plenty of headaches caused by the unprofessional and (possibly) uneducated businesses and vendors in the field. 


I just wanted some advice and all I got was a smart-aleck troll.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

Paradox said:


> Thank you! I was starting to lose hope in this forum.
> 
> Managing a 4.0 and business on the side doesn't leave me as much time for Xbox as some of my friends  I enjoy the work that I do. The money is just an externality of the knowledge and contacts that I gain. I honestly would never want to do something like PP as a career/main source of income. The money isn't that great if you're older and trying to support a family and there are plenty of headaches caused by the unprofessional and (possibly) uneducated businesses and vendors in the field.
> 
> I just wanted some advice and all I got was a smart-aleck troll.


Fremont gives some of the best advice. I really think he was being brutally honest with you. He knows this business very well. You determine what it is that you're going to do or don't do. 

You seem to know what direction you want to head in. Go for it. Your perception is your reality. What works for me, may not work for you in SC and vice versa. I worked for Citigroup for 10 years and would go to FT Mill SC a lot. Beautiful place!!

The best way that I have found to be successful in this business is by networking, researching, and learning on the fly. Common sense goes out the window in this field. You will have to over think things and do like the Rastafarians and Overstand instead of understand. You always have to think and plan in what if scenarios. 

My advice is to work directly with real estate brokers. Try safeguard, field assets, 5 brothers to start. Be sure to read your work orders carefully. Ask questions.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

thanohano44 said:


> Fremont gives some of the best advice. I really think he was being brutally honest with you. He knows this business very well. You determine what it is that you're going to do or don't do.
> 
> You seem to know what direction you want to head in. Go for it. Your perception is your reality. What works for me, may not work for you in SC and vice versa. I worked for Citigroup for 10 years and would go to FT Mill SC a lot. Beautiful place!!
> 
> ...


I know Fremont probably meant right by his post but I believe he went about it in an unprofessional way. I can see how he might see me as an eager college kid wanting to make some easy money, but that is not the case with me. Nobody enjoys being labeled. Ever gotten the hint that someone thought you were a crappy businessman or dishonest person just because you are a contractor?

Thank you for the advice and I wish you the best!


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

Paradox,

Sorry you just failed the test.

I admire your grit but not your tact. 

I have hired and trained many many young men/women in this business (in your backyard nonetheless) that have matured and was/is very successful in this career. 

I will tell you that I had a apprenticeship program that I ran through Clemson and through USC (thats U of S Carolina for you Californians  ) in the late 90's and through 2004 and met many ambitious young men/women and you will need to learn to have a "backbone" since this business is not for the timid or persons that are quick to pi** off since you will be like "meat to the lions". 

This business is quickly transitioning to "only the big boy's" surviving. The small fry are being sued or chargedback out of existence. 

Are you prepared to be sued or get a $100k chargeback for something you may not have done? Its reality and it is happening. Most of the college aged crews would not risk "losing it all" for a contracting field that offers so little reward anymore. 

If you like living on the edge than welcome to the world of P&P!

oh yeah....maybe I am only a troll!  I have a pointed hat too! :laughing:


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

FremontREO said:


> Paradox,
> 
> Sorry you just failed the test.
> 
> ...


I see your point but do not agree with your argument. This is a forum board with many anonymous users/posting. I do not owe it to an anonymous user to display "tact" when their post obviously lacked it. I could have bit the bullet and responded professionally, but again, this is just a forum. I know I could potentially network on this forum but that is honestly not my reason for posting at this time. 

I understand that this business is cutthroat, but let's not pretend like this business is in the same category as a daycare or doctor's office. This is a business funded by institutions who are more worried about their bottom line than the quality of work provided. I expect people to try to screw me faster than any prostitute ever could. I'm ready for chargebacks. But I digress further...




Thank you for allowing me to unknowingly take this "test" of yours. I'm not used to failing tests so I appreciate the learning experience. I find it interesting that you ran an "apprenticeship program" through Clemson, seeing as they primarily focus on their engineering program and placing engineers in internship programs. Clemson doesn't exactly have a stellar business school and I've never heard of any "apprenticeship" program originating from there. I'm not accusing you of lying, but I'd appreciate it if you could link me to an article or piece of information that goes into greater detail about this program.



And let me reiterate the point that you do not know me, so making assumptions about a person's qualities and abilities through the analyzing of a measly few paragraphs shows a lack of intelligence. If you did know me, you might find me to be a quite pleasant, or dare I say timid, person. You don't know me, you don't need to know me, and you don't want to know me; therefore I will not waste my time defending myself. Again, I thank you for the entertainment on a slow Sunday night.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

So you are timid in person and an a$$ online? You will do great, as most work in your field of choice is done online where you don't have to talk to people. 

If you can't take that small bit of sarcasm, you will be done before you start. He is making a living and a career of it, not making extra money. It might be smart to back up a bit, read some as he suggested and learn. Then come back and ask about specific questions.

Also, you might not know this yet, being new in your career, but it is very hard to work when you have a huge chip on your shoulder and a stick up your... On the other hand, I am sure you are used to it by now.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Ouch. :no: Think this thread is rough, browse over to the roofing or plumbing or electrical forums. Contractors just don't suffer thin skinned newbies.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

VinylHanger said:


> So you are timid in person and an a$$ online? You will do great, as most work in your field of choice is done online where you don't have to talk to people.
> 
> If you can't take that small bit of sarcasm, you will be done before you start. He is making a living and a career of it, not making extra money. It might be smart to back up a bit, read some as he suggested and learn. Then come back and ask about specific questions.
> 
> Also, you might not know this yet, being new in your career, but it is very hard to work when you have a huge chip on your shoulder and a stick up your... On the other hand, I am sure you are used to it by now.


I'm a timid person in general. I was looking for a legitimate answer to my question. I could have just disregarded his post but boredom and a newfound state of annoyance compelled me to respond. When I'm dealing with people "online" for business, school, etc. I definitely conduct myself professionally no matter the situation or what's been said. Maybe too much anonymity corrupts :whistling


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Paradox said:


> I see your point but do not agree with your argument. This is a forum board with many anonymous users/posting. I do not owe it to an anonymous user to display "tact" when their post obviously lacked it. I could have bit the bullet and responded professionally, but again, this is just a forum. I know I could potentially network on this forum but that is honestly not my reason for posting at this time.





Paradox said:


> I'm a timid person in general. I was looking for a legitimate answer to my question. I could have just disregarded his post but boredom and a newfound state of annoyance compelled me to respond. When I'm dealing with people "online" for business, school, etc. I definitely conduct myself professionally no matter the situation or what's been said. Maybe too much anonymity corrupts :whistling





Fremont a troll?????????????? Hardly.
Hes probably the most experienced person we've got on the subject of P&P.




As for the other comments..... one day you'll learn that the better part of valor is to act a man even when you think your opponent doesn't.

You've clearly reduced yourself to at least the same level you think Fremont is.
Like has already been said. Thin skinned and a chip on the shoulder is not going to get you very far.

Good luck in P&P. You are gonna need it.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

BPWY said:


> Fremont a troll?????????????? Hardly.
> Hes probably the most experienced person we've got on the subject of P&P.
> 
> 
> ...


I think several on here skipped over the Logic elective courses in college. Oh well.

Thank you for the little bit of motivation. I'm about to head out to my newest trashout.. Looks like the company may be expanding into this area. Good luck to you too


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

*Good stuff*

I asked for some advice and help last friday and all i received was crap.Maybe you guys do have all the great advice and wisdom but have a awful tact in displaying it.Maybe this is a dying business but i have been doing it for 3 months grossed over about $20,000.00 and total costs where about $6500.00 I can live with that.

I know that every job you can't make money on but you just limit the ones you don't make money on.I would never tell anybody don't do it,its too much or whatever.

Treat people the way you want to be treated


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

MKM you didn't get crap.


You got brutal honest facts from those that have gone before.
Most of it a bitter walk.




The problem that plague most is that taking ONLY the jobs that make money and declining the ones that don't does not work out so well. When you sign on with most of the larger "reputable" companies they fully expect you to accept what they give you. 
Decline that and they'll decline your work load. IE .... starve you/yours out.
Once again this is learned from bitter experiences.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

Paradox said:


> I think several on here skipped over the Logic elective courses in college.


Ask a question--don't accept the answers...

That truly is a paradox, good choice of screen name:thumbsup:


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

BPWY said:


> MKM you didn't get crap.
> 
> 
> You got brutal honest facts from those that have gone before.
> ...


There is no facts in business its all about the numbers,the way you sell and like always the customer is always right even when you know they are wrong.

Why do you guys stay in business if you just complain,go back to school.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm only doing maybe 2% P&P work. 
I've moved on.



There is absolutely no way I'd start in the P&P business today knowing what I know about the industry today.
Its been driven to the bottom by greedy service companies taking any and all profit out of the work.


"there are no facts in business"

Thats hilarious.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2011)

BPWY said:


> I'm only doing maybe 2% P&P work.
> I've moved on.
> 
> 
> ...


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

"troll all day"



That is also Hilarious. Check the post times between posts and enlighten yourself.

As for getting out of P&P....... there are better things to do with my effort with more reward and less liability for non payment, charge back BS, other contractors to lie about my work that costs me money................. and the list goes on and on and on.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

MKM Landscaping said:


> I asked for some advice and help last friday and all i received was crap.Maybe you guys do have all the great advice and wisdom but have a awful tact in displaying it.Maybe this is a dying business but i have been doing it for 3 months grossed over about $20,000.00 and total costs where about $6500.00 I can live with that.
> 
> I know that every job you can't make money on but you just limit the ones you don't make money on.I would never tell anybody don't do it,its too much or whatever.
> 
> Treat people the way you want to be treated


If that's what you made for three months of work, you need to rethink your business. If your going to do this as a hobby that's fine, bit out in the jungle that's not enough to stay afloat. Insurance.. insurance.. insurance.. charge backs and working capital. I've made more working a job for someone else. Maybe you'll get lucky and not have to deal with what we here do every day.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

Everyone needs to cool their jets :laughing:

The young man/woman asked some decent questions..its just that the answers may not be what he/she wants to here. This is trully a cruel business. 

1) unlike anyother business I have owned this field does not allow you to control your liability exposures.

2) unlike anyother business this business does not "truly" allow you, the self employed contractor, to set your own pricing. HUD, FHA, FANNIE and the Banks set the pricing.

3) after paying the Sales/Use taxes, E&O Insurance, Work Comp Ins, Commercial Auto Insurance, Commercial General Liability, State Contractor Licensing, Cost of Materials, Cost of Equipment, Fed Tax, State Tax...... THERE IS HARDLY ANYTHING LEFT OVER.

4) Being responsible on a trashout for the wrongful disposal of valuables. Even with a realtor, Nationals Service Company or anyone else for that matter saying you have a valid work order...This can occur to the contractor up to 7 years AFTER you have done the work. Just ask--it does and is happening to many of us as I type.

5) OSHA rules

6) EPA rules

7) Other damn Government/City/County Rules/Laws/Ordinances that YOU THE CONTRACTOR are responsible for knowing. 

This is just a small list of the exposures that a P&P contractor has when doing a job. Is this worth doing as a Part-Time College Student? My own kids (when in College) did not do this business. They are the future and no reason to screw up their life for something that may be out of their control. 

Paradox ask yourself this "Is your future worth risking?" If so then welcome to the messed up world of P&P. If not then quit wasting your time. Get onto the next big thing that may or may not make you the next Bill Gates. Failure is the next step to accomplishment...hard to fail but how many of US have fallen on our heads? Most if not all of us:whistling


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

FremontREO said:


> Everyone needs to cool their jets :laughing:
> 
> The young man/woman asked some decent questions..its just that the answers may not be what he/she wants to here. This is trully a cruel business.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the helpful post. It was rude of me to respond in the way I did. I believe it resulted from a mixture of boredom, stress, and past internet forum experiences (long story). 


I would like to continue in the business even though I know the risks. In order to protect myself, I have thought of the following safety nets (please let me know if there are any I should add):

-Organize the following into a file with property address, date(s), and company
-ALWAYS save and keep picture documentation after submission. Possibly e-mail compressed file to myself to always have, and include the pictures when I back up computer.
-Print out work order 
-Possibly take video footage of completing the trashout (?)
-Type a short summary of the job performed, any interesting convo tidbits with field office, etc. and add to file
-Keep receipt of payment date


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

We have had no new legitimate competition in our area for several years. There is one other local company that has been around as long as we have. It take years to learn the game and it costs money to play.
Everyone else that has come along side of us has died off; some have lasted close to a year, most others are gone after 6 months. They get rolled over by the Nationals or sued or just plain chewed up. Our intent isn't to discourage anyone, but the big boys who have their hooks in this industry have been in it a long time and they make the rules to this game and they don't lose. If I didn't mention it earlier, they don't lose. That's just a fact. So we scattered our eggs in remodels, flips, private sector and steady business with local agents, lenders, etc. Best wishes to anyone interested in starting up, please be wary and humble in the beginning. You'll understand in hindsight.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Paradox said:


> I would like to continue in the business even though I know the risks. In order to protect myself, I have thought of the following safety nets (please let me know if there are any I should add):
> 
> -Organize the following into a file with property address, date(s), and company
> -ALWAYS save and keep picture documentation after submission. Possibly e-mail compressed file to myself to always have, and include the pictures when I back up computer.
> ...


Quickbooks for accounting.
Good Insurance.
Set up your company at the very least as an LLC. DO NOT operate as a sole prop. Anything less can and will cost you your finanicial well being for a long time to come.
Better Insurance.
Copy and back up every photo you ever take to another hard drive and burn them to a disc monthly, quarterly, whatever.
Audit all open invoices once they get close to 60 days. Some companies will tell you they don't pay out after 60 days even though they are at fault.
Get some more insurance.
Train your subs and keep them up to date on photo requirements, standards and procedures and ethics.
Read thru these forums...


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

GTX did you say Insurance? LOL!!

To be honest I have 3 different Commercial General Liability Policies with 3 different companies (on top of the E&O) and I think you and all the experienced contractors know the reason why......

Need I say more?


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm going to have the secretary tomorrow pull up the National Underwriters Actuarial Tables to see what the loss ratio's are for Property Preservation Contractors. This may be very interesting and don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. Years ago ISO never had a classification number for Property Preservation Contractors but they do now. 

I'm betting loss ratio's for the industry to the contractors is at least 120% with the way the rates are increasing. Seems from all the guys in this field for any length of time gets sued at least 2X per year...MINIMUM...normally they win but the lawyers fee's are exorbitant.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

FremontREO said:


> GTX did you say Insurance? LOL!!
> 
> To be honest I have 3 different Commercial General Liability Policies with 3 different companies (on top of the E&O) and I think you and all the experienced contractors know the reason why......
> 
> Need I say more?


I think you should contact journalists from national periodicals/newspapers about the PPR industry. The PPR industry's main funder is the federal government. The only way the PPR industry methods will change is if the government enacts laws/regulations/protections for the vendors due to public outcry over wasted tax dollars due to Uncle Sam's blind eye.

The article could also make the assertion that these (mostly unfair) cost-cutting measures PPR companies enact are hurting the quality of work performed on GREOs (new term for Gov REO??). This leads to the conclusion of tax dollars being wasted, unfair business practices funded by the government, and the unknown damage done to the real estate economy.


tl;dr - Journalist + Article on PPR companys' shady business = public outcry over wasted tax dollars and damage to real estate economy


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Paradox I think you'll find that the reason most of the seasoned guys are so cynical in your eyes is that we've all seen so many folks that are going to change the world.

Only to have this industry eat them up and spit them out like so much yesterday's trash.

The field is open for some one such as yourself with fresh energy to set the world on fire.

Good luck, you can be sure that HUD knows all about the shady deals and other than a few wrist slaps around the edges they are NOT concerned enough about the little man in the field trying to eek out a living to do any thing large scale to benefit the contractors.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

Paradox, One weird thing in S.C. ( Barefoot might be able to help you here). S.C. requires you to get a Use Tax (like a retailers permit tax number) for any service that improves the appearance of any real property (grass cutting, landscaping, etc etc)

We had 4 or 5 crews that ended up paying some serious tax fines. Something like $500 per property fine PLUS the tax. Initially we were told we didn't need this then 2 years later the letters started coming in....

I doubt if this has changed or more than likely has gotten worse.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

Paradox,

REO and P&P, are not the business' that they use to be.

You spend lots of money and waste lots of time, and then you start to lose your F'n mind.

They'll string you along, the newbie you are, with your mower and trash bags in the trunk of your car.

Then one day they'll say, you're the contractor, the pro. We do not want to hear that you just didn't know.

The chargebacks start coming and lawsuits amass. Turning the wise CEO into a broken dumba$$.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2011)

^^^^:laughing:

Your a poet and you didn't kno.... weren't aware of it

sounds like a country song


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

Paradox said:


> I think you should contact journalists from national periodicals/newspapers about the PPR industry. The PPR industry's main funder is the federal government. The only way the PPR industry methods will change is if the government enacts laws/regulations/protections for the vendors due to public outcry over wasted tax dollars due to Uncle Sam's blind eye.
> 
> The article could also make the assertion that these (mostly unfair) cost-cutting measures PPR companies enact are hurting the quality of work performed on GREOs (new term for Gov REO??). This leads to the conclusion of tax dollars being wasted, unfair business practices funded by the government, and the unknown damage done to the real estate economy.
> 
> tl;dr - Journalist + Article on PPR companys' shady business = public outcry over wasted tax dollars and damage to real estate economy


The government? PP is regulated by the government. If you trust government to make this situation better, you must not be up on current events. 

Who is the audience who cares if this is in a newspaper article? Sales of newspapers have been declining sharply over the past 7 years. 

The only way to turn this field back on the right track is for contractors to bond together and not work for these bottom feeder prices. This happens every 10 years or so in this industry. This was told to me by some 30 year PP vets.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2011)

I had a thought....If I was in my 2nd year in college and was getting good grades I would shift my major to law related and continue onto a law school and be a lawyer (OH I hated saying this) and start suing these P&P companies for all the errors of their ways....

I'd BE VERY RICH right now.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> I had a thought....If I was in my 2nd year in college and was getting good grades I would shift my major to law related and continue onto a law school and be a lawyer (OH I hated saying this) and start suing these P&P companies for all the errors of their ways....
> 
> I'd BE VERY RICH right now.


Hmmm, but to go to school for 10 years after high school? 

I remember sitting in college and asking myself, would i be sitting through this Nonsense if I wasn't playing football here? How is this broke teacher/professor going to teach me how to make a great living when they obviously aren't themselves? Why do my coaches drive luxury cars and trucks but not my instructors? Why am I taking elective courses that i don't want to take?


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2011)

thanohano44 said:


> Hmmm, but to go to school for 10 years after high school?
> 
> I remember sitting in college and asking myself, would i be sitting through this Nonsense if I wasn't playing football here? How is this broke teacher/professor going to teach me how to make a great living when they obviously aren't themselves? Why do my coaches drive luxury cars and trucks but not my instructors? Why am I taking elective courses that i don't want to take?


LOL you got me there! But think how well and how fun it would be to go after these sob's for all the "wrongs" they are doing and seem to be doing it with immunity:whistling


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2011)

FremontREO said:


> I had a thought....If I was in my 2nd year in college and was getting good grades I would shift my major to law related and continue onto a law school and be a lawyer (OH I hated saying this) and start suing these P&P companies for all the errors of their ways....
> 
> I'd BE VERY RICH right now.


I considered law school but I honestly don't see how one can live an ethical life while being a lawyer (no irony intended). Most lawsuits are unnecessary or overblown. I'd rather make my money in an honest way. Plus, the market is reaching the point of saturation with the lawyer$.

OT: Why are High End Refreshes ~$20? That's a joke. I can make quicker money filling out online surveys. I did some research and saw a memo from Safeguard in '07 that mentioned monthly high end refreshes were an extra $50 (if you do monthly lawn cut). I can see how you say this industry has gone downhill.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> LOL you got me there! But think how well and how fun it would be to go after these sob's for all the "wrongs" they are doing and seem to be doing it with immunity:whistling


I'd rather go fishing and skip trace them punks down and show up at their homes and or office ready to discuss business. I'd bring a news crew along to document it. And see how that works.


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## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

Paradox said:


> I considered law school but I honestly don't see how one can live an ethical life while being a lawyer (no irony intended). Most lawsuits are unnecessary or overblown. I'd rather make my money in an honest way. Plus, the market is reaching the point of saturation with the lawyer$.
> 
> OT: Why are High End Refreshes ~$20? That's a joke. I can make quicker money filling out online surveys. I did some research and saw a memo from Safeguard in '07 that mentioned monthly high end refreshes were an extra $50 (if you do monthly lawn cut). I can see how you say this industry has gone downhill.


Those watered down prices are due to all of the regionals farming out work. Nationals respond to craigslist ads to see what the going rates are in an area. 

4 years ago maid refreshes were $75 for a FAnnie Mae up to 1500 sf home.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2011)

Paradox said:


> I considered law school but I honestly don't see how one can live an ethical life while being a lawyer (no irony intended). Most lawsuits are unnecessary or overblown. I'd rather make my money in an honest way. Plus, the market is reaching the point of saturation with the lawyer$.
> 
> OT: Why are High End Refreshes ~$20? That's a joke. I can make quicker money filling out online surveys. I did some research and saw a memo from Safeguard in '07 that mentioned monthly high end refreshes were an extra $50 (if you do monthly lawn cut). I can see how you say this industry has gone downhill.


OK Paradox, on a more serious note, the reason this thread started the way it did is because most that post on here and have been in P&P for a while have seen this industry take a terrible turn for the worse. 

My absolute best piece of advice to anyone starting in this biz, but really biz in general is to KNOW YOUR COST TO OPERATE..........

Most don't, even know how to calculate what their hourly cost to operate is. Sift thru the threads on this site and you will usually find valuable information regarding your question whatever it may be. It may take you some time because you have to seperate the wheat from the chaf, but it's usually there somewhere.

Look at this site in this context. You are walking thru your yard one day and see and anthill and trail of ants. Now standing there you look and all you see is a line of ants going into a anthill being the little buggers they are, they are just doing what they do you muse. Now, if you were to enter the colony on their level as you began to get to know the operation you would rapidly begin to ascertain what ants actually know what they're doing and what are mindless drones. But none the less, they are all workers and I'm sure have varying positions on their current job. As you mingle you will get to know which ones have the firmest grasp on their current situation. They may ignore you at first, poke at you a bit, but when they determine that you are not JUST ANOTHER mindless piss ant they will begin to teach you. The question from that point is if you are willing to take their knowledge that they passed along to you and wisely put it to use. Also, when the order for evacuation comes and all the other ants start running for the exit, sometimes you just have to have faith and follow the exodus or risk being distroyed because not knowing why.:blink:

I hope that makes my point, it sounded better in my head....lol:laughing:

A great book for any contractor to read is Mark Up and Profit. I can't remember who penned it but you can find it online. Alot of good info in it. Especially about figuring out what you need to make to survive.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2011)

Well, I was hoping as a new comer to find the industries elite basking in their success and willing to show others how to achieve what they have. I am am not dissapointed! My skin is thick indeed, and I am working my way from the bottom for contractors of the nationals. I can see I have a tough road ahead, but I have no choice. I would appreciate any advice that ANYONE is willing to share. No chip, I go to school online! Thanks


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