# Un f*ing real



## Blonde25 (Dec 14, 2012)

So I am beginning to see how things work. I did 2 excessive debris jobs in the last 2 weeks(over 35) and both show my 14x8x5 dump trailer fully loaded 5 times per job time and date stamped with a member of my crew standing on top of them. I just get the most make me want to puke email saying that this is within allowable. Tree branches can be broken more. I am in a state of shock, both properties were excessive landscape which we have to trim all shrubs from property, tree branches, and dead vegetation that took my guys between 12-16 hours to make them flawless. Just on the yard, when I called to inquire I get this runaround- Landscape needs to be compressed not like regular debris. So I ask for the compression method 2 trashbags to 1 cyd? No, every case is different. Then we actually have a tense argument and she says forward to another rep maybe they will count differently. It basically means that my 21cyd dump trailer only holds 7cyds of landscape and trash. They must not realize dump fees are higher for Green Waste in Riverside County. Sometimes, it is just so discouraging.... Booo! So my question is what is the problem. Is it the properties not holding enough value to spend money on an additional 25cyds, or is it that no-one wants to be the person to approve overages and lose these million dollar companies $400?


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

To be honest, my feeling is that they know damn well how much debris there was. They will get paid for the full amount you listed but cut your invoice. Have seen it before, just another way for them to make more money.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

You have a rep that has never had to remove debris for a living; they have never had much experience in the field outside of their training when they were hired with the company. They do not "lose" money on a job; in some cases they make less. At best, the rep will be in another field in 6-12 months and they just plain have no feel for what they are doing outside of the company manual. At worst, they are scumbags who work on performance bonuses. Check your state laws; I would inform them via email and paper mail of my intent to collect of what is owed, via lien, etc asap.


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## Valley (Mar 12, 2013)

And that is the reason why they have those ever so spoken words.... Have a nice day , see you down the road


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## garylaps (Sep 28, 2012)

I know your outrage...I have never been in a field were they require you to take pictures to prove what you have done then tell you you didn't do what was clearly in the pictures. I have as you have done, gone around in circles with these yahoos to no satisfaction...AH but SOMEDAY when I get my other boot on (sigh) the shoe will be on the other foot and I'll stick my boot up there a$$ while they are trying to get their other shoe on. Seriously, have someone else not involved and unbiased who doesn't know your story look at you pics and ask them what they see. This whole business is about pictures. Use this as a learning experiance as I had to once and got "educated" on how to make a picture say what you want it to say.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

Blonde25 said:


> So I am beginning to see how things work. I did 2 excessive debris jobs in the last 2 weeks(over 35) and both show my 14x8x5 dump trailer fully loaded 5 times per job time and date stamped with a member of my crew standing on top of them. I just get the most make me want to puke email saying that this is within allowable. Tree branches can be broken more. I am in a state of shock, both properties were excessive landscape which we have to trim all shrubs from property, tree branches, and dead vegetation that took my guys between 12-16 hours to make them flawless. Just on the yard, when I called to inquire I get this runaround- Landscape needs to be compressed not like regular debris. So I ask for the compression method 2 trashbags to 1 cyd? No, every case is different. Then we actually have a tense argument and she says forward to another rep maybe they will count differently. It basically means that my 21cyd dump trailer only holds 7cyds of landscape and trash. They must not realize dump fees are higher for Green Waste in Riverside County. Sometimes, it is just so discouraging.... Booo! So my question is what is the problem. Is it the properties not holding enough value to spend money on an additional 25cyds, or is it that no-one wants to be the person to approve overages and lose these million dollar companies $400?


Politely inform your rep that you are very well versed on the dimensions of your dump trailer, and you know EXACTLY how many loads to return to the property above what you are paid for.

Even if the stuff has been removed, I'm sure you can find sources of debris to redeposit at the property. :thumbsup: Keep in mind, this may be the last time they ever send you work, but who wants to work for a company like that anyway.

I met a guy in Milwaukee once dumping crap at a foreclosure. He told me they didn't pay him what he was owed and was just returning it to them. He could have been full of chit, but with me being in this business, it seemed just as plausible that he was telling the truth too.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

The problem is that those deskjockeys see the tree removal companies with Chippers working and EXPECT you to "have 1 of those Chippers also" BUT they dont pay enough to justify the equipment purchase. 

In 2006 I purchase a skidloader and grapple bucket to be able to more effeciently remove large debris fields from farm properties. Used it apprx 10x on P&P jobs THEN the banks decided to sell "as is". Anyone need a good deal on a 04 Case 45XT w/grapple and trailer?


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## Freddie (Jun 13, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> The problem is that those deskjockeys see the tree removal companies with Chippers working and EXPECT you to "have 1 of those Chippers also" BUT they dont pay enough to justify the equipment purchase.
> 
> In 2006 I purchase a skidloader and grapple bucket to be able to more effeciently remove large debris fields from farm properties. Used it apprx 10x on P&P jobs THEN the banks decided to sell "as is". Anyone need a good deal on a 04 Case 45XT w/grapple and trailer?


Ooooo what kinda good deal are we talking about?


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## Freddie (Jun 13, 2012)

Blonde25 said:


> So I am beginning to see how things work. I did 2 excessive debris jobs in the last 2 weeks(over 35) and both show my 14x8x5 dump trailer fully loaded 5 times per job time and date stamped with a member of my crew standing on top of them. I just get the most make me want to puke email saying that this is within allowable. Tree branches can be broken more. I am in a state of shock, both properties were excessive landscape which we have to trim all shrubs from property, tree branches, and dead vegetation that took my guys between 12-16 hours to make them flawless. Just on the yard, when I called to inquire I get this runaround- Landscape needs to be compressed not like regular debris. So I ask for the compression method 2 trashbags to 1 cyd? No, every case is different. Then we actually have a tense argument and she says forward to another rep maybe they will count differently. It basically means that my 21cyd dump trailer only holds 7cyds of landscape and trash. They must not realize dump fees are higher for Green Waste in Riverside County. Sometimes, it is just so discouraging.... Booo! So my question is what is the problem. Is it the properties not holding enough value to spend money on an additional 25cyds, or is it that no-one wants to be the person to approve overages and lose these million dollar companies $400?


I feel your pain, but I'm suprised you haven't learned this lesson a long time ago. Too bad it had to be on a job like this but at least it wasn't a 100 plus harder... Things could have always been worse


Was this a ams property?


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## Blonde25 (Dec 14, 2012)

brm1109 said:


> To be honest, my feeling is that they know damn well how much debris there was. They will get paid for the full amount you listed but cut your invoice. Have seen it before, just another way for them to make more money.


is that how it works? I was trying to figure the method to their madness, why all of a sudden there is so much more inconsistency and cutting on my debris counts. Do you think they get a per cyd rate, if so that is b.s because they make more on their portion of the flat rate than the vendor.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Depending on the size of the company, each department/coverage area will have quarterly goals which must be met if they want to keep their jobs. Above and beyond that there are performance bonuses based on turn around time, scorecards, etc, and...their own profit margins. Mostly it is really a simple answer, your contracting with idiots. Sometimes, everything has been going smoothly until your Rep goes to her biweekly manager's meeting and gets reamed over her department's numbers. She comes back and reams her people, who in turn ream you.


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## Blonde25 (Dec 14, 2012)

Freddie said:


> I feel your pain, but I'm suprised you haven't learned this lesson a long time ago. Too bad it had to be on a job like this but at least it wasn't a 100 plus harder... Things could have always been worse
> 
> 
> Was this a ams property?


yes, unfortunately this last month the more accurate and detailed I have been with my trailer shots, dump reciepts etc. the more reasons i am getting that my count is off. This i just cant wrap my head around, i was up calculating all last night my 21cyd trailer*5 loaded shots(over the top uncompressed branches/leaves bushes and 1 trailer of trash) should be 100 cyd capacity. So if I am only billing an additional 35(70 total) wouldnt that be more than fair giving 30 cyds for air pockets and loose branches. I totally lost on an Fas job, the last we ever did. they originally precounted 450 and adjusted to 300 because they dont pay heavy weight. it was crazy, we were removing the metal covers for wells like 24 tons of debris. It doesnt matter how smart i think i am, i just cant win lol!


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## Freddie (Jun 13, 2012)

Blonde25 said:


> yes, unfortunately this last month the more accurate and detailed I have been with my trailer shots, dump reciepts etc. the more reasons i am getting that my count is off. This i just cant wrap my head around, i was up calculating all last night my 21cyd trailer*5 loaded shots(over the top uncompressed branches/leaves bushes and 1 trailer of trash) should be 100 cyd capacity. So if I am only billing an additional 35(70 total) wouldnt that be more than fair giving 30 cyds for air pockets and loose branches. I totally lost on an Fas job, the last we ever did. they originally precounted 450 and adjusted to 300 because they dont pay heavy weight. it was crazy, we were removing the metal covers for wells like 24 tons of debris. It doesnt matter how smart i think i am, i just cant win lol!


Wait did you remove the metal and not recycle it? You can make a killing on metal. I've personally made $500 on just metal from some cap ams jobs


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

If it's FNMA, unfortunately service companies have gotten so competitive with one another they are bidding "as bundled" or as the new terminology Initial Service Bundle. So in essence, these upstart "national" providers have come in in the last 4-5 years and started undercutting each others bids. There are provisions within the contract for over allowables, but 'they' aren't going to make you or I privy to that. 
I can tell you this though. I do know that the going rate to contractor on an ISB is less than half the contract amount. So do the math on that. +50% to service company in addition to the 20-25% discount off contractors portion. 
A system set up to fail, and fail rapidly. Unfortunately it will take a bit of time for it to bottom out, as there is still a steady stream of "get rich quick" contractors willing to plug away at it for a couple years thinking they are doing just fine.


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## Blonde25 (Dec 14, 2012)

Freddie said:


> Wait did you remove the metal and not recycle it? You can make a killing on metal. I've personally made $500 on just metal from some cap ams jobs


That was the first time we realized the value of metal! We made like $1200 from all the stuff, but because it was a rural job the dump was an hour away with 14 trips in a huge diesel. So the metal paid for gas thank god! and maybe 1 dump because the minimum is so high out there. When we sent over the dump reciepts etc. in our arguments they had the nerve to say "we show you making $200 after dumps" The job took us 6 days to complete, and we actually ended up negative because we got the $17cyd minus a 27% discount! Ridic, no matter the complaints i have with Ams, they could never compare to the previous FM company lol. After replayin that situation I all of a sudden feel like the 35 cyd thing isnt so bad haha! what a world to work in!


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## hammerhead (Apr 26, 2012)

when they ask for dump receipts i scan them with the price I paid blacked out. None of their fugging business what I pay


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## dryBgerG (Feb 1, 2013)

hammerhead said:


> when they ask for dump receipts i scan them with the price I paid blacked out. None of their fugging business what I pay


I do the same. I never include dump receipts, I make them ask. They hardly ever ask anymore.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

I have blank dump receipts from many of the landfills we operated out of. Just tell them you need some of their "blanks" to submit for foreclosure properties. Scan them into computer and fill in the blanks. 

If any MN guys need just p.m.


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## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

Blonde25 said:


> is that how it works? I was trying to figure the method to their madness, why all of a sudden there is so much more inconsistency and cutting on my debris counts. Do you think they get a per cyd rate, if so that is b.s because they make more on their portion of the flat rate than the vendor.


 
BEcause it is so slow. The nationals have to watch their costas too. I had one where because they did nt want to pay a better trip charge I refused the job. GLAD I did . They get paid good money (500 for the flat fee for a ppr property when it is completed lock and yard or wint. The 500 is on TOP of the services !!) They will loose good vendors and wonder why where did they go?? I have an interview on tuesday for another foot in the door position. Pay as good NO but I have ben blessed and made my fortune in this industry and PUT IT AWA. Its just getting too crazy and unpredictible these days.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

Blondie....

We had had that happen once...this is how we responded...

*Quality Control Procedures*
1. Initial Inspections:
Once a work order is received, an initial inspection of the property is performed. The inspection includes all photos to support written documentation. Written report must be broken down by service needed and the description of each service.
2. Initial Inspection report with supporting photos are submitted to the Client. At this time, a written request for Personal Property Removal is requested or verified. If necessary, written requests for approvals from the Realtor are generated.
3. Services Performed. Upon approval of services from the Client and/or Realtor, the services are performed.
4. In House Inspection. Our in-house inspector will inspect the services performed and prepare a written report, with photos, if necessary, to the Quality Control Manager, 
5. The completed work order is submitted to the Client with our invoice for payment of services rendered.
6. Service Correction. If a service is not performed satisfactorily to the Client, the employee will return to the property to correct the service performed. New photos showing the correction will be submitted to the Client for approval.

This became company policy for ANY property and still is....Especially on "over the allowable" we force them to agree up front to the fees...in writing...if they will not agree we pass....

Good luck Hope this helps...


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## Gypsos (Apr 30, 2012)

I got screwed hard that way a few years ago. Now I bluntly refuse to do anything, with very very few exceptions, until the I get a work order with the agreed upon amount very clearly listed. 

It is also understood that the pictures are to show that I did the work, not how much work I did because how much I did is irrelevant because the price for the job has already been decided.

Once we agree on a price I will do the job to the best of my ability regardless of profit because then it is on me to have estimated the job properly.

I also make sure they understand that I do not compress anything, period. They pay for cubic yardage which includes the air in the empty dresser drawers and between the branches of the tree limbs. 

If they want to pay by weight instead of volume then I will gladly compress it to reduce the number of trips to the dump. Until then rocks go on the bottom and empty buckets go on top. 

What we do is just too damn hard physically, mentally and spiritually to have to put up with the crap like that.


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## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

Gypsos said:


> It is also understood that the pictures are to show that I did the work, not how much work I did because how much I did is irrelevant because the price for the job has already been decided.


I like that. I've had them question approved bids after the fact saying that my pictures don't support the cubic yardage reported. And this is after they have sent an order with approved amounts and yardage.

I like your response. I may use that. Don't know if it will help, but I like it.


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## warranpiece (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey Blondie,

You probably thought I was picking on you with the AMS haz mat stuff. Removing haz mat at 3 bucks a gallon I still think is a travesty and you should not do it. But que sera sera.

Welcome to AMS! Here is what you need to know about the Fannie Mae SOW and SLA. It includes EVERYTHING on a property. Lets say hypothetically, that I was a company that wanted to hire you. I would pay you 1050 per property and give you all I had. I am going to give you some decent volume. Included in that fee however is UNLIMITED cubic yardage removal, spa demolition and removal, above ground pool demolition and removal, haz mat removal, sales clean, unlimited landscaping, unlimited HUD style board ups, and hazards ranging from minor (wire caps,gas caps), to medium (hand rails). In addition you will need to have a software system build do AMN can have a back door into it, and you will need to show me your QC program and inspection force.

Now in all honesty, with the UNLIMITED attached to all of those services above....FOR THE LIFE OF THE PROPERTY.....I would be thinking long and hard about that decision. I would need historical data collection to see what was actually done. I don't think I could do it and I am the boots on the ground.

Now if you are a large company like AMS, and this is your SOW, how do you think you maintain all of that, if you don't find ways to pay the vendors less and less?

You are being paid a very slim cube price and expected to count by VOLUME. Its half what some other companies are that are also terrible (Safeguard for example). And they still think its ok, take 20%, and if you become too difficult they remove work from you. 

So now you know what they are up against, and where the incentive is. The incentive for middle management, and the incentive is passed on to middle management is, REMAIN PROFITABLE. 

My advise......don't remove haz mat unless you are a licenced haz mat remover, but at the very least, if something goes over 35 cubes....get a precount. I can almost guarantee you that one of those jobs you did was one we turned down. If we get photos quickly and ask for a count we have done everything and more than what can be expected. If they come back low (spoiler alert.....you will NEVER get the count you seek), then you have right of refusal. The onyl way this works is if people don't let themselves get screwed. It is amazing to me that any contractor allows themselves to do a job, and then negotiate the terms of payment AFTER it has been completed.

Insanity.


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## PPC (Oct 20, 2012)

If the job is AMS, never do an over-allowable. NEVER!!! You will not get paid. They screwed me over so many times I lost count. AMS is just a bunch of kids trying to run a multi-million dollar company. If you gave them hell on the phone you will definitely be black listed and let me tell you that that list does exist. The boss over there is named Andrew, give him a call, I am sure he will be happy to not help you. Their glory will be short lived. You cant screw over everyone doing the work forever. Things will change people. You can bet on it. :whistling2:


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## Blonde25 (Dec 14, 2012)

See, i cant get anyone to give me a pre-count! But I will say, I have an amazing rep who works for Ams, and she really seems to be on the contractors side. She deals with their crews and i think that helps her know that we are all working hard. So she sends over my pics and gets them both approved. I do believe the other "manager" is just there to discourage people not thinking that there is anyone higher up than her. Now im going to forward my invoice approvals to her haha!


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## Valley (Mar 12, 2013)

Blonde25 said:


> See, i cant get anyone to give me a pre-count! But I will say, I have an amazing rep who works for Ams, and she really seems to be on the contractors side. She deals with their crews and i think that helps her know that we are all working hard. So she sends over my pics and gets them both approved. I do believe the other "manager" is just there to discourage people not thinking that there is anyone higher up than her. Now im going to forward my invoice approvals to her haha!



Glad you might finally be getting this taken care of....

Good luck ! :thumbup:


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

Blonde25 said:


> See, i cant get anyone to give me a pre-count! But I will say, I have an amazing rep who works for Ams, and she really seems to be on the contractors side. She deals with their crews and i think that helps her know that we are all working hard. So she sends over my pics and gets them both approved. I do believe the other "manager" is just there to discourage people not thinking that there is anyone higher up than her. Now im going to forward my invoice approvals to her haha!



Hmmm....you must have Rebecca or Sara?


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## Zoly (Feb 2, 2013)

PPC said:


> If the job is AMS, never do an over-allowable. NEVER!!! You will not get paid. They screwed me over so many times I lost count. AMS is just a bunch of kids trying to run a multi-million dollar company. If you gave them hell on the phone you will definitely be black listed and let me tell you that that list does exist. The boss over there is named Andrew, give him a call, I am sure he will be happy to not help you. Their glory will be short lived. You cant screw over everyone doing the work forever. Things will change people. You can bet on it. :whistling2:


Do you do over the allowable before bidding on it? I only do the 30CY or w/e the allowable is at the time. Document it with measuring tapes from different angles and I always break everything down. I stuff dressers, stuff boxes, fill bags. I never half-ass anything and have always had my cubic yardage approved. To be honest this house I just bid on, I took 36 CY in because I wanted the downstairs cleared out. Documented it all and invoiced for 30CY.


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## hammerhead (Apr 26, 2012)

Never work for free


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## STARBABY (Apr 12, 2012)

Zoly said:


> Do you do over the allowable before bidding on it? I only do the 30CY or w/e the allowable is at the time. Document it with measuring tapes from different angles and I always break everything down. I stuff dressers, stuff boxes, fill bags. I never half-ass anything and have always had my cubic yardage approved. To be honest this house I just bid on, I took 36 CY in because I wanted the downstairs cleared out. Documented it all and invoiced for 30CY.


And that is why these companies want you to do more and more for less!


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## Stateline (Jan 3, 2013)

ams i'm guessing? i walk away from those.


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## jack125 (Jan 8, 2013)

no AMS anymore.to much BS


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## NewEnglandProp (May 23, 2012)

I am at a total loss here as to why ANYONE puts up with that crap. I do not do flat fees stopped that in 04-we bid everything regardless and should there ever arise an occasion that they come back and say we are cutting x$ cause we feel blah blah, they immediately hear the word lien fly out of my mouth, and do not tell me I signed this or agreed to that, cause CT does not care-pay the man or the property will sit till you do.:glare:


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