# Estimating Validity



## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

How many of ya'll have been estimating construction work. Me.. I've been estimating for over 20 years in the construction trades everything from small clean-outs to the $125 million Deutsche Bank demo in NYC.

I'm getting very short tempered when National desk jockey's deny my bid saying...that is not within our "Standard Pricing" or "Are you sure... I don't see that in the photo's". I get to thinking...Am I losing my mind here. :blink: 

When they shoot back their denial of my bid... an tell me where I should be... I find myself going over the particulars again...wasting time, and coming up with the same figures. Then I get hacked-off an email them back an request a price breakdown of their price...of course I never get it... an it's beginning to drive me mad.

Any words of wisdom from the learned ones.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2012)

Give up is my best advise. I know your frustration and decided to move "on down the road". It doesn't matter what estimating software you use (Xactimate, Simsol, Craftsman Blue Book) since they will not hear anything that doesn't fit "their pricing parameters". 

If you are "GOOD" at estimating than you can "write your own" ticket in the real world. I know guys that are begging for good estimators that can use any of the above named software programs.


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## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> Give up is my best advise. I know your frustration and decided to move "on down the road". It doesn't matter what estimating software you use (Xactimate, Simsol, Craftsman Blue Book) since they will not hear anything that doesn't fit "their pricing parameters".
> 
> If you are "GOOD" at estimating than you can "write your own" ticket in the real world. I know guys that are begging for good estimators that can use any of the above named software programs.


In Enviro & demo I always' used my own created Excel spreadsheets an customize'em to the Spec's of the work. I've done the full-time estimating/project mgmt gig, Although it is a lot less stress-full, you do lose the independence of working for yourself... decisions...decisions...
Thanks a bunch...


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2012)

Yeah I can understand the independence thing BUT if I told you a career field that is always looking for good/great estimaters and you are independent to come/go as you please and charge a great pay rate would you be interested? LOL its out there. You are in a field that has a big need for good estimators.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Most of my estimating experience is Septic systems and municipal sewer and water as well as dirt work. Biggest project i have bid was 120K. That said, I'm the take it or leave it type person. If they don't like my bid, i don't give a damn. I can go broke sitting at home. It just takes longer.......


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2012)

OH Jeez my buddy MtMtnMn.... We all know you love those sewers


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> OH Jeez my buddy MtMtnMn.... We all know you love those sewers


Smells like money!!!! Actually i like designing residential septics. Interesting work and when people can flush they are VERY grateful.......:clap:


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2012)

Yep your right. Its just those darn rabbit tails


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

*Estimating*

I get a kick out of the "price is excessive please reduce". What is excessive to one if fine with another. Had one bid where I told them 4 or 5 times that I was not reducing the bid. Kept getting emails, "price is excessive, reduce".
I finally said NO I WILL NOT. I think they got the hint.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

brm1109 said:


> I get a kick out of the "price is excessive please reduce". What is excessive to one if fine with another. Had one bid where I told them 4 or 5 times that I was not reducing the bid. Kept getting emails, "price is excessive, reduce".
> I finally said NO I WILL NOT. I think they got the hint.





Fremont told me to cut it a penny.
After the third or fourth time they usually leave you alone.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

JFMURPHY, you said you had 20 years of estimating experience. Don't you think that it probably more than most of those people have been alive?


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## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> JFMURPHY, you said you had 20 years of estimating experience. Don't you think that it probably more than most of those people have been alive?


I think that's the point... They have their "cue cards" an if it doesn't fall within the parameters on the cards... decline the bid an insistant manner that I'm trying to gouge someone. . 
I know what I want to make on a job, an if my bids not the lowest, just tell me I'm not the lowest an move on. I've lost many a bid in my time, it's almost like "O/H & Profit" are a dirty words.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

The gouging is usually on the end of the National my friend.
I had one that wanted us to bid a garage repaint. Paint scrape, prime, prep and paint. Seems like it was around 1K. They came back with the old, "Your bid is above industry standards and has been reduced to $400" baloney. I quit getting mad over that stuff it happened so much. We always just re'd back and said the bid is no longer ours and is invalid. Anyway, the broker calls us a few days later wanting a bid to do the same work at the same property. Guess what? We got the bid approved thru him. Who do you think was gouging?


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## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> The gouging is usually on the end of the National my friend.
> I had one that wanted us to bid a garage repaint. Paint scrape, prime, prep and paint. Seems like it was around 1K. They came back with the old, "Your bid is above industry standards and has been reduced to $400" baloney. I quit getting mad over that stuff it happened so much. We always just re'd back and said the bid is no longer ours and is invalid. Anyway, the broker calls us a few days later wanting a bid to do the same work at the same property. Guess what? We got the bid approved thru him. Who do you think was gouging?


LOL.. good for you. But the words "above the Industry standard", Who the hell are they to tell you that... That is what gets my goat.
For me the industry standard is what the market will bear. 
They dam sure don't tell ahh "your a little low on this"


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Some Nationals, like FAS, would call us and try and coach us on our bids. What to write, how to write it, what specific language or wording, etc. That was irritating. Others, like Safeguard...why even bother me with a bid request? They would rewrite and price it to suit them. I emailed the woman (phone is no good) the first time it happened over a large estimate and told them that no one outside of myself had any authority to alter a bid made on our company letterhead. If they submitted that bid in my name, it would be considered fraud and I would be referring the matter to my attorney. The rep called me right away stuttering and stammering and claiming it wasn't her; she was just doing what Safeguard was telling her to do.
Yes, stick to your guns and move on if they don't like it. They may cut the price but they never cut the expectations.


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## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

They may cut the price but they never cut the expectations.[/QUOTE]

Soo true.....


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Some Nationals, like FAS, would call us and try and coach us on our bids. What to write, how to write it, what specific language or wording, etc. That was irritating. Others, like Safeguard...why even bother me with a bid request? They would rewrite and price it to suit them. I emailed the woman (phone is no good) the first time it happened over a large estimate and told them that no one outside of myself had any authority to alter a bid made on our company letterhead. If they submitted that bid in my name, it would be considered fraud and I would be referring the matter to my attorney. The rep called me right away stuttering and stammering and claiming it wasn't her; she was just doing what Safeguard was telling her to do.
> Yes, stick to your guns and move on if they don't like it. They may cut the price but they never cut the expectations.






Actually for them to coach your bids is breaking the sub contractor veil if you will.
Then you become an employee.


Ask Fremont.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2012)

Don't ask Fremont! I'm still fuming. 

Wait till HUD or Fannie calls you direct over "confusing bids" and you state that "my bid is copywrited and cannot be changed"..... Funny how the language is all twisted and the prices increased 2-3X in some cases AFTER you submit your bid. 

In the end its called FRAUD on us TAXPAYERS!

Every Service Company should be sued from the Govt for this fraud but never seems to happen. Wonder how the lobbying groups are doing?


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

We still have the emails from Five Brothers requesting that we submit a 2nd bid, slight larger or smaller, to compete against the bid we already submitted. I couldn't believe they were willing do put something like that in writing. I guess I should have set up a dummy company to be prepared for shenanigans like that. :no:


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> We still have the emails from Five Brothers requesting that we submit a 2nd bid, slight larger or smaller, to compete against the bid we already submitted. I couldn't believe they were willing do put something like that in writing. I guess I should have set up a dummy company to be prepared for shenanigans like that. :no:


What do they call it? A "True Second Bid"? I get those requests too.......


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Yep. Don't know what the lender would call it.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> Don't ask Fremont! I'm still fuming.
> 
> Wait till HUD or Fannie calls you direct over "confusing bids" and you state that "my bid is copywrited and cannot be changed"..... Funny how the language is all twisted and the prices increased 2-3X in some cases AFTER you submit your bid.
> 
> ...




It has always blown my mind on the stuff that goes on and what they get away with.

Anything from the huff po reporter that talked to some of the folks here?
Wasn't he gonna have an online article?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2012)

I was ordered to not respond anylonger. Obvious reasons.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> We still have the emails from Five Brothers requesting that we submit a 2nd bid, slight larger or smaller, to compete against the bid we already submitted. I couldn't believe they were willing do put something like that in writing. I guess I should have set up a dummy company to be prepared for shenanigans like that. :no:



I do as well! was asked to give second bid using a dumby company name.


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## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> What do they call it? A "True Second Bid"? I get those requests too.......


I too recieved one from the brothers... for removing a boat-load of paint & HHW. It was a first, especially to put it in writing. They've never followed correct construction practices so why start now.
I contacted an old employer...provided him the scope, an he put his number to it. So no skin off my back.
Like I've said in the past, this is like no-other industry I've been involved with.


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

I had a property that was a total loss. All the plumbing was gone, mold everywhere and electrical shot along with basically the interior needing to be demoed.
Put in bids for plumber, electrician and a bid to provide a complete inspection. The company could not understand why I wouldn't just do all of the bidding in the first place.
Well let me see my electricians and plumbers will not bid bank work without getting paid. It will take at least a full day of inspecting and putting the bid together. Just to wait for the bank to not approve it.
Sorry but I am no longer doing your work for free.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

I used to bid $350 and up "to obtain professional licensed contractor's bid".



I got exactly 0.0 of them approved.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2012)

I think its where you operate. In Des Moines I get $250 per trade for each bid. Safeg**** pays $275 in DSM to check for repairs completed without permits by P&P crews. $300 for a adjuster insurance damage assessment. I met an adjuster from Omaha doing the same thing and he showed me where he was getting $1600 for his inspection...I'm cheap I guess. LOL


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

You gotta remember Fremont by the time they take their cut and I get .50 for my time the licensed pro is getting $200 to $250.


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