# Can someone help me with the laws, please?



## AMDPreservation

Ok, so long story shortest form possible :icon_wink:.


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## Ohnojim

*Discretion is the better part of valor.*

You should have used your head, and thought that through a little better, before you used them as a reference. That being said, if AMS needs contractors in your area, I don't think any two bit no compete clause would stop them from sending you work.


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## Racerx

Ohnojim said:


> You should have used your head, and thought that through a little better, before you used them as a reference. That being said, if AMS needs contractors in your area, I don't think any two bit no compete clause would stop them from sending you work.


I agree the only thing I wolud add is "Persistence" ditch the email, you don't want to be "that person" right now, the one that threatens them with your lawyer and knowing your rights etc. :sleep1:, your goal is to get work from them and with four mouths to feed you're not gonna let a cubicle jockey stop you , are you??...call them again...


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## AMDPreservation

Racerx said:


> I agree the only thing I wolud add is "Persistence" ditch the email, you don't want to be "that person" right now, the one that threatens them with your lawyer and knowing your rights etc. :sleep1:, your goal is to get work from them and with four mouths to feed you're not gonna let a cubicle jockey stop you , are you??...call them again...


Lol, no. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my post.


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## Gypsos

What state are you in? If it is right to work state a non-compete is nearly impossible to enforce. 

I would ask the neighbor for clarification about the "non-compete law." Play humble and stupid and see if they explain. Did you ever sign any kind of a contract with them? If so you should have a copy of it you can read to see if they snuck one in. 

Keep calling AMS and talk to someone different and ask them why you being a sub is taboo. I am willing to bet your neighbor has talked crap about you to prevent you from being competition. 

Also, keep looking for other companies to work for. There are lots of them out there, but the nationals tend to pay the best.


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## AMDPreservation

Yes, I do think that is what happened.


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## AMDPreservation

Oh btw, to answer your question, I'm in Michigan


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## JenkinsHB

You start your own business in direct competition with your former employer and then you ask for a reference from him? You're surprised he acts weird about it? Some people.


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## Cleanupman

If you did not sign a contract...there is no "no compete clause" that they can enforce...
I must say I have to agree with some of the comments here...that was a ballsy move...had you discussed thing prior to your actions you probably would not be here asking this question....

One if the big issues in the industry is people doing just what you have done thus creating an overload of contractors in an area....I have had 7 former employees do that....they are all out of business...

One last thing...if all you have is a w-9 you're an employee....I would bet on it....I posted something about contracts and what our local UEID said about a contract I got from a national company....


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## Wannabe

I normally hate AMS! This time I have to commend them for not hiring you..... I would like to think that if AMS was happy with the service your "old employer" was providing to them then they should be loyal and not hire any subs of that "old employer". 

Instead of 1 unhappy contractor (you) then AMS would have 2 unhappy contractors (you and ex employer) if you were hired PLUS..... instead of 1 "busy" contractor (ex employer) then if you are hired then there would be 2 "semi-busy" contractors (basically 2 broke contractors instead of 1) .

JMO... Sorry


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## ontimepres

I call BS on the non-compete but if you've gone right from working for him, to trying to take his work then I agree that's not fair. I'm curious what the time frame is, how long has it been since you stopped working as his sub? 

In any case, AMS isn't that wonderful so chin up buttercup ... you can find better work out there.


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## Dnmceo17

*Run from ams*

If you thought your EX employer was bad Try working for AMS I did when I first started and it took them 97 days to pay me becasue I was not a tier 1 company and you have to jump through hoops to get paid and once u complete the work they ding you for the smallest things "like the neighbor put trash in the wrong can they failed us on inspection :yes:and sent us back out to remove the garbage and delayed our payment from 15days to 45 days:furious: we worked for them for 4months and dumped them like a Hot box of Rocks!!!!! YES run as far as u can? there are plenty of Prop Pres companys just do your homework and find the right 1 for you also try the city they have abandon property contracts for cleanout & board ups around this time of the year to do grass cuts and boad ups?
Good Luck 
DNMCEO


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## GTX63

AMD, it sounds like, from what you posted, that your old neighbor is still working for AMS. I also sounds like, by the rep asking you if you were subbing for him, that the neighbor made a phone call.
I have no problems with my subs striking out on their own; God bless them. But I have issues when someone tries to solicit my clients. Your old boss may be a fly dumping bonehead, that is pretty common. Best advice is stay on the other 22 contacts on your list and wait your old boss out, and when he drops off the radar, jump on the wagon.


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## AMDPreservation

JenkinsHB said:


> You start your own business in direct competition with your former employer and then you ask for a reference from him? You're surprised he acts weird about it? Some people.


Yeah, that'd be a great assumption. Except, I told them right from the start that was my intent and everything was fine with them. I could use them as a reference, they had more work than they could handle and they weren't concerned with me entering the business, yada yada yada. I think they never expected me to actually do what I said and once I did they were ticked. Well, tough. My husband quite his job of 16 years to start this and they knew that and still told us they would help us in if they could.


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## AMDPreservation

Dnmceo17 said:


> If you thought your EX employer was bad Try working for AMS I did when I first started and it took them 97 days to pay me becasue I was not a tier 1 company and you have to jump through hoops to get paid and once u complete the work they ding you for the smallest things "like the neighbor put trash in the wrong can they failed us on inspection :yes:and sent us back out to remove the garbage and delayed our payment from 15days to 45 days:furious: we worked for them for 4months and dumped them like a Hot box of Rocks!!!!! YES run as far as u can? there are plenty of Prop Pres companys just do your homework and find the right 1 for you also try the city they have abandon property contracts for cleanout & board ups around this time of the year to do grass cuts and boad ups?
> Good Luck
> DNMCEO


I wondered about that myself. I sub for another gentleman who is very easy to work with, I do the job he asks for, he's happy I get paid.
With the neighbors, it was quite crazy. I'd have to get out the toothbrush and scrub corners, spend all day getting rust off, clean under appliances and still get called back because a back corner behind and under the refrigerator had been missed. It seems a bit excessive.


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## BamaPPC

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I have all my employees sign this agreement at the same time they fill out the application, W9, and other employment forms:

For good consideration and as an inducement for employment with xxxxxx., _________________________(Employee/Sub-Contractor), the undersigned Employee/Sub-Contractor hereby agrees not to directly or indirectly compete, within the State of Alabama, with the business ofxxxxxxxxxxx. and its successors and assigns during the period of employment and for a period of one year following termination of employment and notwithstanding the cause or reason for termination.

The term "not compete" as used herein shall mean that the Employee/Sub-Contractor shall not own, manage, operate, consult or to be employee in a business substantially similar to or competitive with the present business of xxxxxxxxxxxx. or such other business activity in which xxxxxxxxxxxx. may substantially engage during the term of employment.

The Employee/Sub-Contractor acknowledges that xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, shall or may in reliance of this agreement provide Employee/Sub-Contractor access to trade secrets, customers, clients, and other confidential data and good will. Employee/Sub-Contractor agrees to retain said information as confidential and not to use said information on his or her own behalf or disclose same to any third party.

This agreement shall be binding upon and inure to the benefit of the parties, their successors, assigns, and personal representatives.


It's just a precaution, so that I don't spend 6 months training my competition. I have not had any sub-contractors sign this. I don't feel that is appropriate. I have no control over what another established contractor does. But, I also don't train my sub-contractors. I hire them to do specific jobs (roofing) for which they are already qualified.


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## SwiftRes

AMDPreservation said:


> I wondered about that myself. I sub for another gentleman who is very easy to work with, I do the job he asks for, he's happy I get paid.
> With the neighbors, it was quite crazy. I'd have to get out the toothbrush and scrub corners, spend all day getting rust off, clean under appliances and still get called back because a back corner behind and under the refrigerator had been missed. It seems a bit excessive.


You will find this difference between companies. It's a tangled web of what properties have to be done to what standards. I haven't worked directly for AMS, but I did have an ex-AMS employee working for me, and they had to clean like you said. But other homes aren't so strict. I would say this is a difference between types of properties, not that your neighbor was too excessive.


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## AMDPreservation

BamaPPC said:


> I don't know if I'm the only one, but I have all my employees sign this agreement at the same time they fill out the application, W9, and other employment forms:
> 
> For good consideration and as an inducement for employment with xxxxxx., _________________________(Employee/Sub-Contractor), the undersigned Employee/Sub-Contractor hereby agrees not to directly or indirectly compete, within the State of Alabama, with the business ofxxxxxxxxxxx. and its successors and assigns during the period of employment and for a period of one year following termination of employment and notwithstanding the cause or reason for termination.
> 
> The term "not compete" as used herein shall mean that the Employee/Sub-Contractor shall not own, manage, operate, consult or to be employee in a business substantially similar to or competitive with the present business of xxxxxxxxxxxx. or such other business activity in which xxxxxxxxxxxx. may substantially engage during the term of employment.
> 
> The Employee/Sub-Contractor acknowledges that xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, shall or may in reliance of this agreement provide Employee/Sub-Contractor access to trade secrets, customers, clients, and other confidential data and good will. Employee/Sub-Contractor agrees to retain said information as confidential and not to use said information on his or her own behalf or disclose same to any third party.
> 
> This agreement shall be binding upon and inure to the benefit of the parties, their successors, assigns, and personal representatives.
> 
> 
> It's just a precaution, so that I don't spend 6 months training my competition. I have not had any sub-contractors sign this. I don't feel that is appropriate. I have no control over what another established contractor does. But, I also don't train my sub-contractors. I hire them to do specific jobs (roofing) for which they are already qualified.


I completely agree, I have been very careful with what I have signed as far as other companies because every job builds my skills and I have had applications into nationals for months so I knew that I was going to go through regionals until one or a couple of the nationals called me. As a subcontractor, I feel I have to work with more than one so as not to put my eggs in one basket but also I thought I was careful not to step on toes. 
I agree the training is what makes it so touchy, we knew each other and from what I got from our conversations before I had even started to try and branch out it was supposed to be more of a mentoring to a friend scenario.
Oh well, live and learn. I'm ready to move on.


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## ontimepres

IMHO the expectations for a maid service are sky high and they pay is too low! Compare your pay to what it would cost if you were to hire merry maids or even a local independent maid service. My best advice to you would be try to branch out into Preservation or Maintenance where we don't do maid services. 

Sounds like you are/were doing work from the HUD FSM contract? That usually goes to multiple companies (not just AMS) and the list is published. (I know, I know, this contradicts the advice I give above)

http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpo/contract/mnm/current/contract.cfm

Check out this link for the specific companies in your area: 
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?id=DOC_4451.pdf


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## AMDPreservation

ontimepres said:


> IMHO the expectations for a maid service are sky high and they pay is too low! Compare your pay to what it would cost if you were to hire merry maids or even a local independent maid service. My best advice to you would be try to branch out into Preservation or Maintenance where we don't do maid services.
> 
> Sounds like you are/were doing work from the HUD FSM contract? That usually goes to multiple companies (not just AMS) and the list is published. (I know, I know, this contradicts the advice I give above)
> 
> http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpo/contract/mnm/current/contract.cfm
> 
> Check out this link for the specific companies in your area:
> http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?id=DOC_4451.pdf


Thank you so much! Applied to a lot but apparently not the right ones, still have a lot to learn. :thumbsup:


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## thanohano44

AMDPreservation said:


> Thank you so much! Applied to a lot but apparently not the right ones, still have a lot to learn. :thumbsup:


The most alarming thing is that you want to work for AMS and their dirt cheap pay.


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## Freddie

JenkinsHB said:


> You start your own business in direct competition with your former employer and then you ask for a reference from him? You're surprised he acts weird about it? Some people.


I was thinking the same thing!


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## AMDPreservation

Freddie said:


> I was thinking the same thing!


I told them that I already applied to ams before I even started subbing with them and they had no problem with it at the time. I've hung out with these people before on weekends. It's not like I just met them off the street, they were supposed to be so called "friends". This was no problem until they actually got wind that I did get contacted.


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## AMDPreservation

thanohano44 said:


> The most alarming thing is that you want to work for AMS and their dirt cheap pay.


Yeah, I guess I'm not making what most of you are. I've been lucky so far to break even for the week, I figured it was just par for just starting and working my way up. Ams looks like big money for me right now, when I subbed for them I was feeling a little burned because I sucked up all the cost dump fees and trying to bust out a immaculately cleaned house all within 24 hours with myself and partner and only got paid 200. Then I would get complained at because I was too slow by the husband and that I needed to pull out the fridges by the wife.


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## Zoly

I'm not trying to be rude at all but if you have noticed on this forum how people are reluctant to talk about who they work with, it's because competition is fierce. I think applying direct to his only client was a little messed up. Survival of the fittest though. Depends how you look at it.


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## Freddie

Zoly said:


> I'm not trying to be rude at all but if you have noticed on this forum how people are reluctant to talk about who they work with, it's because competition is fierce. I think applying direct to his only client was a little messed up. Survival of the fittest though. Depends how you look at it.


I'll tell you who I work for.... That one company, that other company and a butt load of brokers. You know the usual


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## BRADSConst

Zoly said:


> I'm not trying to be rude at all but if you have noticed on this forum how people are reluctant to talk about who they work with, it's because competition is fierce.


I'll tell you who I work for. I work indirectly for FNMA and FMAC doing rehabs. In P&P I only work for MSI. The rest of them don't have the prices I need to work profitably or I can't stand or deal with their bullchit! Simple as that. For my business, the place to be is residential customers. Yes, they are more picky and have a higher PITA factor. However, they also pay better and faster.

This business when run with a business mentality, NOT an employee mentality is filler work or sideline for most people. A very select few can profitably make this the prime source of revenue. Keep in mind when I say profitable, I mean covering all labor, materials, overheads, PITA factors and still have money left over for the business.


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## Zoly

Am I the only one who doesn't have much overhead? With our bills at their highest we will never pay more than $1500 a month in bills. More likely 1200. Never more than $400 in gas. Everything is paid for, no leases on trucks, mowers, trailers, etc. I could literally do one allowable trash out per month and be completely fine. Our only bills are mortgage, internet, phone, power.


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## Freddie

Zoly said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't have much overhead? With our bills at their highest we will never pay more than $1500 a month in bills. More likely 1200. Never more than $400 in gas. Everything is paid for, no leases on trucks, mowers, trailers, etc. I could literally do one allowable trash out per month and be completely fine. Our only bills are mortgage, internet, phone, power.


I'm with you, i have very little overhead. I'm the one always out in the field not sitting in the office commanding the troops. Works better for my business to be the face that meets the agents and clients because I care about how well the job is done because its my business. An hourly employee will never treat the customer the way a owner will and I also don't mind getting dirty to boot


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## AMDPreservation

Zoly said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't have much overhead? With our bills at their highest we will never pay more than $1500 a month in bills. More likely 1200. Never more than $400 in gas. Everything is paid for, no leases on trucks, mowers, trailers, etc. I could literally do one allowable trash out per month and be completely fine. Our only bills are mortgage, internet, phone, power.


One trash out a month and be fine? See I obviously just haven't gotten in with the right prices yet. I have very little overhead too, I usually spend $60 for the day when I go out for gas. The cheapest dump to dump my 20 yrd. trailer I have found is $50, the most expensive I have paid was $161 which I thought was ridiculous. That's all I have, it's just me and hubby. But.. I only get paid $300 for a 20 yard trashout.

The other day it took us all day to chop up an 18 foot fiberglass boat with wood underneath the fiberglass. It wouldn't fit in my trailer, it killed my chainsaw and in the end (after I about broke my toe and can hardly walk now) I ran that darn thing over with the truck to break it the rest of the way. That job was not even 20 yards in the end so I will be getting paid probably $225 for that.


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## Zoly

Freddie said:


> I'm with you, i have very little overhead. I'm the one always out in the field not sitting in the office commanding the troops. Works better for my business to be the face that meets the agents and clients because I care about how well the job is done because its my business. An hourly employee will never treat the customer the way a owner will and I also don't mind getting dirty to boot


Exactly, I have also never had a chargeback. My girlfriend and I do all of the work ourselves Make sure it's never going to have a problem. I do the work as if it were my own house.


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## BRADSConst

AMDPreservation said:


> I only get paid $300 for a 20 yard trashout.
> 
> 
> 
> You are better off getting a job at Walmart or McDonalds than doing a trashout @ $15/CYD. :yes:
Click to expand...


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## BRADSConst

Zoly said:


> Exactly, I have also never had a chargeback. My girlfriend and I do all of the work ourselves Make sure it's never going to have a problem. I do the work as if it were my own house.


How long have you been in the business? Give it time you will. Last year from the preservation side of the business, I had 1.7% of invoices never paid or charged back. I count myself to be VERY lucky to have such a low rate. Almost all of that came from having yardage cut or grass cut issues.


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## AMDPreservation

BRADSConst said:


> AMDPreservation said:
> 
> 
> 
> I only get paid $300 for a 20 yard trashout.
> 
> 
> 
> You are better off getting a job at Walmart or McDonalds than doing a trashout @ $15/CYD. :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> Um yeah,
> Now that bills have come around with not enough money to pay them, I'm quickly starting to realize that!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## BRADSConst

AMDPreservation said:


> I only get paid $300 for a 20 yard trashout.
> Um yeah,
> Now that bills have come around with not enough money to pay them, I'm quickly starting to realize that!


The best thing to do is sit down and do a break even analysis. PUT IT IN WRITING, do not just do this in your head. Figure up all materials, labor, overheads, PITA factor and PROFIT (you want to get a dump trailer, don't you?). Then you know what you need to be charging or move on. There are people who are happy "making" a couple thousand a month or week or what ever. The problem isn't how much you "make" but how much you "keep". If I "make" $10k in the next 2 weeks but it cost me $10.5k to "make it", not such a good deal.....

The hardest thing in business is running the business itself. Doing the work is the easy part. I've seen the most skilled craftsman and carpenters go belly up because they aren't business men. I've got a guy mark painting with me on a FNMA rehab. The guy is fast and I've only seen one other person in the last 5 years cut a line like him. I asked him why he isn't out on his own. His honest answer, "I tried it, but I couldn't run the business".


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## Zoly

BRADSConst said:


> The best thing to do is sit down and do a break even analysis. PUT IT IN WRITING, do not just do this in your head. Figure up all materials, labor, overheads, PITA factor and PROFIT (you want to get a dump trailer, don't you?). Then you know what you need to be charging or move on. There are people who are happy "making" a couple thousand a month or week or what ever. The problem isn't how much you "make" but how much you "keep". If I "make" $10k in the next 2 weeks but it cost me $10.5k to "make it", not such a good deal.....
> 
> The hardest thing in business is running the business itself. Doing the work is the easy part. I've seen the most skilled craftsman and carpenters go belly up because they aren't business men. I've got a guy mark painting with me on a FNMA rehab. The guy is fast and I've only seen one other person in the last 5 years cut a line like him. I asked him why he isn't out on his own. His honest answer, "I tried it, but I couldn't run the business".


I am a bit curious as what your ultimate business plan in? Constant expansion or are you content with a certain profit per month / year?


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## dryBgerG

I like how people say "my trucks paid for or my mowers paid for" like they last forever and I don't need to worry about replacement or maintenance.


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## Zoly

dryBgerG said:


> I like how people say "my trucks paid for or my mowers paid for" like they last forever and I don't need to worry about replacement or maintenance.


Save up for a new mower, I buy used. I'm sure with higher volume it makes sense to buy brand new top of the line but I haven't had a single issue with my equipment yet. We are relatively low volume though.
I don't think putting myself in perpetual debt by having constant loans on everything is a good business plan. We have the option of doing one 30CY initial secure a month and have everything paid and live comfortably.


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## Freddie

AMDPreservation said:


> One trash out a month and be fine? See I obviously just haven't gotten in with the right prices yet. I have very little overhead too, I usually spend $60 for the day when I go out for gas. The cheapest dump to dump my 20 yrd. trailer I have found is $50, the most expensive I have paid was $161 which I thought was ridiculous. That's all I have, it's just me and hubby. But.. I only get paid $300 for a 20 yard trashout.
> 
> The other day it took us all day to chop up an 18 foot fiberglass boat with wood underneath the fiberglass. It wouldn't fit in my trailer, it killed my chainsaw and in the end (after I about broke my toe and can hardly walk now) I ran that darn thing over with the truck to break it the rest of the way. That job was not even 20 yards in the end so I will be getting paid probably $225 for that.


This will save you some time. NEVER use a chainsaw on anything but wood. It'll dull the bride immediately. That's not what a chainsaw is meant for.... Buy a reciprocating saw and a pack of blade for different jobs. You can cut up a fiberglass and wood spa in 15 minutes or less. A boat like that shouldn't have take. More than a fee hours


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## BRADSConst

Zoly said:


> I am a bit curious as what your ultimate business plan in? Constant expansion or are you content with a certain profit per month / year?


My ultimate (long term) business does NOT include P&P. My passion lies in rehab and repair. I like to take nothing and make it something. I also throughly enjoy the game Monopoly, except I'm playing with real property and real money.

As far as your question regarding constant expansion goes, here is my take. It is not so much of an expansion thing for me. It is more of a growth thing. I look at it this way. First and foremost, I don't think any person or small business should be "content" unless you are very near retirement. Inflation, taxes, regulations, etc. etc. will end up eating a person/business alive. One must grow to avoid that. Secondly, I value growth in more than just a monetary way. For example, if I can cut out working Fridays or Saturdays and my revenues stay the same or have a marginal increase, that is also growth for me. Trust me, it is way easier to collect rent checks than it is to haul 200 CYD crap out of a basement.


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## dryBgerG

Zoly said:


> Save up for a new mower, I buy used. I'm sure with higher volume it makes sense to buy brand new top of the line but I haven't had a single issue with my equipment yet. We are relatively low volume though.
> I don't think putting myself in perpetual debt by having constant loans on everything is a good business plan. We have the option of doing one 30CY initial secure a month and have everything paid and live comfortably.


In red is what I'm talking about. Save up sure no problem that money has to come somewhere and should be accounted for before it's time to replace equipment. I didn't say to put yourself in perpetual debt.

My mower I run everyday is a 1995 Exmark Lazer so I know about used equipment. The other main mower in our business is a new Dixie Chopper classic, my partner uses it. 

What is relatively low volume?


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## BRADSConst

dryBgerG said:


> I like how people say "my trucks paid for or my mowers paid for" like they last forever and I don't need to worry about replacement or maintenance.


Agree 100%. Last week was a new $182 dump trailer tire. 2 second one in 6 months.  puncture in the sidewall.


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## BPWY

AMDPreservation said:


> Any information as to laws governing this or advise would be very greatly appreciated. I have started an email to the local rep explaining that I have never signed a no compete waiver, but it is currently on hold until I am sure it is the right thing to do.






You will soon learn that the P&P field has few if any laws that protect the contractors. 

Make sure you branch out into other lines of work and DO NOT focus solely on P&P to provide a living. 
Other folks have woke up one day to find themselves out of work, or given a couple week notice that they will be out of work. 
They are left with no source of revenue........ folks have posted about this on this forum..... just this year.


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## BPWY

AMDPreservation said:


> My husband quite his job of 16 years to start this and they knew that and still told us they would help us in if they could.






OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Probably not a good move, if you have mouths to feed I'd recommend he try and get it back, even part time. 
P&P has cycles and some times they last for months. Boom to bust over night.
So while you are working far too many hours then come months where you can't buy a W/O. 
And the bills still need paid during those slow times.


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## BPWY

AMDPreservation said:


> I told them that I already applied to ams before I even started subbing with them and they had no problem with it at the time. I've hung out with these people before on weekends. It's not like I just met them off the street, they were supposed to be so called "friends". This was no problem until they actually got wind that I did get contacted.






"FRIENDS" will F you first and the most. 

Because of a "FRIEND" F-ing me out of $1000 on a handshake job now every one signs a simple contract that I can take to court, heaven forbid the need arrises.
Even the church I attend and plow snow for, they signed one too. 
The reason for this EVERY ONE signs policy is so that I don't have to pick and choose who I trust. Only current customers with a track record are exempt. 
If they were to quit and then come back........... they'd sign too.
Its like this, in God we trust, all others pay cash.


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## BPWY

BRADSConst said:


> Agree 100%. Last week was a new $182 dump trailer tire. 2 second one in 6 months.  puncture in the sidewall.






Exactly, maintenance can really add up.

Fuel, insurances, vehicle repairs, and the list goes on and on.




Zoly you mention one trash out a month being all you need. 

I'm just curious when the last time was you grossed some thing like $4500 in two days time.


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## AMDPreservation

BPWY said:


> OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not a good move, if you have mouths to feed I'd recommend he try and get it back, even part time.
> P&P has cycles and some times they last for months. Boom to bust over night.
> So while you are working far too many hours then come months where you can't buy a W/O.
> And the bills still need paid during those slow times.


Big Ouch! I have thought about it a few times now, he was only up to $16/hr after 16 years though. He had earned 3 weeks vacation for being there so long, then was laid off for 1 year and when they called him back he had to start like a new hire again. He would have had to be there 10 years to get his vacation back. Then the health insurance was $230 a month and copays were $60 and the insurance would usually pay up to $60 of the bill, we always ended up responsible for the rest.

I know we shouldn't complain, we were lucky he even had a job but we are getting to the age now that we can't keep being stuck in a dead end job our whole lives. 

I think I'm going to take the days we don't have jobs and go back to college. Of course the realty down the road is looking for people who want to become agents now, but I'm just not sure. My head spins in so many directions.


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## BPWY

AMDPreservation said:


> Big Ouch! I have thought about it a few times now, he was only up to $16/hr after 16 years though. He had earned 3 weeks vacation for being there so long, then was laid off for 1 year and when they called him back he had to start like a new hire again. He would have had to be there 10 years to get his vacation back. Then the health insurance was $230 a month and copays were $60 and the insurance would usually pay up to $60 of the bill, we always ended up responsible for the rest.
> 
> I know we shouldn't complain, we were lucky he even had a job but we are getting to the age now that we can't keep being stuck in a dead end job our whole lives.
> 
> I think I'm going to take the days we don't have jobs and go back to college. Of course the realty down the road is looking for people who want to become agents now, but I'm just not sure. My head spins in so many directions.





$16 after 16 years, wow. I can see why you would want to quit that. 



And the part about being fortunate to have work and insurance. I hear ya. 


Far too many of our fellow Americans are in bad shape. And being in a dying economy like MI does not help either. 
From what the media tells us places like Detroit, etc are becoming ghost towns from the people that are moving out.
A lot of folks are moving to places like TX and working the oil booms and other industry.


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## Zoly

BPWY said:


> Exactly, maintenance can really add up.
> 
> Fuel, insurances, vehicle repairs, and the list goes on and on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zoly you mention one trash out a month being all you need.
> 
> I'm just curious when the last time was you grossed some thing like $4500 in two days time.


Earlier this month on two properties we did a little over that. It's not consistently large jobs like that so I don't consider it per week, I consider it per month. Some months we might not make anything. Work is slower than I'd like right now. We're making a good amount but only working 2-3 days a week.

Just expanded our counties to 150mi and tried to get in with a few more nationals to keep our work consistent. I think maybe I was misunderstood. We can make more and would like to obviously but if worse came to worse we would be able to live without any worries with that amount. An amount I can make working at Mcdonalds. I just think it's smart planning to keep your expenses as low as you can and keep a lot in the bank. I grew up extremely poor so I think that gives me great insight into how far a little bit of cash can take you and what you can do when you live within your means and not to the point where one small mishap can bankrupt you.


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## BPWY

Zoly said:


> I grew up extremely poor so I think that gives me great insight into how far a little bit of cash can take you and what you can do when you live within your means and not to the point where one small mishap can bankrupt you.






Things like that or going bankrupt will certainly change how you operate!


Ask any older person that lived thru the depression and they'll tell you what that was like. 
Most folks today can't imagine how that was.


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## Racerx

BRADSConst said:


> Agree 100%. Last week was a new $182 dump trailer tire. 2 second one in 6 months.  puncture in the sidewall.


Same here, new trailer tire also...


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## Racerx

Freddie said:


> This will save you some time.* NEVER use a chainsaw on anything but wood.* It'll dull the bride immediately. That's not what a chainsaw is meant for.... Buy a reciprocating saw and a pack of blade for different jobs. You can cut up a fiberglass and wood spa in 15 minutes or less. A boat like that shouldn't have take. More than a fee hours


I also noticed that and was gonna respond earlier, I carry at least two sawzalls in each of my trucks one battery operated and one corded with an assortment of blades (wood,metal,carbon) long, short, etc. I probably own at least six of them they're lifesavers ..


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## STARBABY

BPWY said:


> Exactly, maintenance can really add up.
> 
> Fuel, insurances, vehicle repairs, and the list goes on and on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zoly you mention one trash out a month being all you need.
> 
> I'm just curious when the last time was you grossed some thing like $4500 in two days time.


I went to replace two trailer tires today and two others patched! ended up replacing all four , the two couldn`t be repaired had been run on low air pressure! ended up spending $700 of tires this trailer! run 225/75/15 (10 ply)! anybody that has done this for awhile know your wasting your time with used tires!


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## STARBABY

AMDPreservation said:


> One trash out a month and be fine? See I obviously just haven't gotten in with the right prices yet. I have very little overhead too, I usually spend $60 for the day when I go out for gas. The cheapest dump to dump my 20 yrd. trailer I have found is $50, the most expensive I have paid was $161 which I thought was ridiculous. That's all I have, it's just me and hubby. But.. I only get paid $300 for a 20 yard trashout.
> 
> The other day it took us all day to chop up an 18 foot fiberglass boat with wood underneath the fiberglass. It wouldn't fit in my trailer, it killed my chainsaw and in the end (after I about broke my toe and can hardly walk now) I ran that darn thing over with the truck to break it the rest of the way. That job was not even 20 yards in the end so I will be getting paid probably $225 for that.


Why are you removing a boat as debris! I would bid the same as removing a car or truck! I never wast my time cutting up winch up on my trailer!


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## Zoly

STARBABY said:


> I went to replace two trailer tires today and two others patched! ended up replacing all four , the two couldn`t be repaired had been run on low air pressure! ended up spending $700 of tires this trailer! run 225/75/15 (10 ply)! anybody that has done this for awhile know your wasting your time with used tires!


I love used tires for a lot of things. The junk yards get the tires from cars they buy to part out and you can get a whole set for $20 of 80% tires. Also a lot of cars now adays use full size tires on rims for their spares in the trunk and the junk yard sells those extremely cheap as well with the rim. Get 4 identicals and you're good to go. Never used.


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## STARBABY

Zoly said:


> I love used tires for a lot of things. The junk yards get the tires from cars they buy to part out and you can get a whole set for $20 of 80% tires. Also a lot of cars now adays use full size tires on rims for their spares in the trunk and the junk yard sells those extremely cheap as well with the rim. Get 4 identicals and you're good to go. Never used.


been there done that not worth it! your rolling the dices with used tires! i`m doing 3 to 4 trash outs a week and there`s nothing that will pi** you faster is having blow out on your way to a job! but your talking about getting tires off cars!! and kind of says it all!


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## Racerx

STARBABY said:


> Why are you removing a boat as debris! I would bid the same as removing a car or truck! I never wast my time cutting up winch up on my trailer!


for the win...:yes:


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## npm

Freddie said:


> This will save you some time. NEVER use a chainsaw on anything but wood. It'll dull the bride immediately. That's not what a chainsaw is meant for.... Buy a reciprocating saw and a pack of blade for different jobs. You can cut up a fiberglass and wood spa in 15 minutes or less. A boat like that shouldn't have take. More than a fee hours


I carry/use a demo chain for my chainsaw. works great for general demo work. My favorite is my 14" gas powered demo saw with a "fire rescue blade" cut through anything. Both blades aren't cheap but last long and don't need to worry about batteries or a generator.


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## BRADSConst

STARBABY said:


> been there done that not worth it! your rolling the dices with used tires! i`m doing 3 to 4 trash outs a week and there`s nothing that will pi** you faster is having blow out on your way to a job! but your talking about getting tires off cars!! and kind of says it all!


Oh I beg to differ :icon_wink:. When you puncture a side wall on top of the landfill and there's no place to put a jack, I'm much more pissed than when a tire goes down on the way to a job.


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## AMDPreservation

STARBABY said:


> Why are you removing a boat as debris! I would bid the same as removing a car or truck! I never wast my time cutting up winch up on my trailer!


I'm a little desperate. I just haven't been able to find decent prices in my area for anything yet. Instead of sitting home worrying about it, I've just been taking the junky prices while I look for better.


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## BPWY

I took my garden tractor w/snow plow and pushed a homemade POS trailer onto my flatbed trailer. 

I was planning on taking it straight to the landfill but ran across a hoarder on the way. He gave me $75 to unload it at his house. 
What can I say? I like money.


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## Zoly

BPWY said:


> I took my garden tractor w/snow plow and pushed a homemade POS trailer onto my flatbed trailer.
> 
> I was planning on taking it straight to the landfill but ran across a hoarder on the way. He gave me $75 to unload it at his house.
> What can I say? I like money.


Did he just run in front of your truck and stop you and ask where you were taking it? lol how do you find these people?


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## SwiftRes

STARBABY said:


> Why are you removing a boat as debris! I would bid the same as removing a car or truck! I never wast my time cutting up winch up on my trailer!


Depends on what you are getting paid. For Hud rates I would much rather remove a boat for 50/cyd rather than 210. We removed a truck bed style camper, measured to be 25 cyd.


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## BPWY

Zoly said:


> Did he just run in front of your truck and stop you and ask where you were taking it? lol how do you find these people?






I forget exactly how we met up. Its been a couple years.
Strong chance I was dropping some stuff off at the local consignment auction house and he saw it on my trailer.


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## Cleanupman

AMDPreservation said:


> I'm a little desperate. I just haven't been able to find decent prices in my area for anything yet. Instead of sitting home worrying about it, I've just been taking the junky prices while I look for better.



This is the major contributing factor to pricing throughout the industry hitting rock bottom...not trying to be rude but you are part of the problem this industry has...


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## AMDPreservation

Cleanupman said:


> This is the major contributing factor to pricing throughout the industry hitting rock bottom...not trying to be rude but you are part of the problem this industry has...


See, to me as long as we work 3 days a week and fill a trailer. We make as much as my husband did at his job for 16 years. To me that's good money for 12 days of work. 
I'm sure it gets frustrating for people who make a killing. If I have a choice to sit home for nothing and have to ride on welfare or take a price that may not be the greatest but still keeps food in my kids mouth, I'm taking the work.

I can't imagine it would hurt the higher ups too badly because I figure the ones taking the bottom pay probably are not too experienced at this and will either work up to the higher prices or fall off all together.

I would rather pay someone more that I know the job will get done right than pay small prices to possibly have to go back to fix or find a new contractor 1 month down the road. I imagine that's how the nationals would feel too. I'm just trying to be able to make it that far, without hurting the industry at the same time. It's a difficult position to be in.

I'm obviously new at this and I'm sorry if I hurt your industry. I think truly the ones who hurt the industry probably don't even realize it, so no don't worry about my thinking your trying to be rude. I don't, I will suck up all information people who have been there will give. I guess that is why I'm on here trying to learn and get better rather than being one of the ones who throws in the towel.


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## Cleanupman

.......I imagine that's how the nationals would feel too......

That is not only a very distorted view but one of the most convoluted trains of thought I've heard in quite sometime...

Look I understand feeding your family we all have to do it...But when People start dropping companies like US Best, MCS, MSI Sentinel, Spectrum, that have been their gravy train for the past 6-7 years...all because they are subbing work and they are contributing to the poor fee structures...Please do not think for one minute you're the first to post the statement...I'm just trying to feed my family"...We have been hearing it for the past 4 years.

The bottom line until people quit trying to justifying their actions when they accept a crap number for a service people and quit accepting work from someone subbing the work out the issues plaguing the industry will continue...

For the record this is not my industry...it is our industry...you're part of it...and as I stated your theory is part of the problem....I'm not sure what numbers are nor whom your clients are , I'm basing my commentary solely on your statements...

I know guys that have gone into foreclosure because they have the guts to stand behind principle...

Members of the National Property Preservation Guild have taken a stand and quit doing and believing because they are feeding their family that it is "OK" to do the work at the crap numbers that are being paid by second, third and fourth tier order mills...
I also have bills and mouths to feed...I feel for you if you are generating more revenue on 3 days a week in this industry..the numbers that are out there if you are not working directly with a lender or for a bank are such a joke...It must have been pretty bad before you guys got into this industry....


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## BPWY

I'm going to address two comments. The first is "we MAKE as much".

I really question this, sure you probably GROSS a lot more than your hubby's old job. But its highly unlikely you MAKE as much if not more.
As you are learning quickly it costs a lot to run a business. Every time you turn around there is a charge for some thing.
There is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference between GROSS and the amount you MAKE.
I think gross is self explanatory, MAKE is considered the amount thats left after expenses, INCLUDING insurances, equipment replacement costs, equip repairs, and the list goes on and on and on.





AMDPreservation said:


> See, to me as long as we work 3 days a week and fill a trailer. We make as much as my husband did at his job for 16 years. To me that's good money for 12 days of work.





AMDPreservation said:


> I'm obviously new at this and I'm sorry if I hurt your industry. I think truly the ones who hurt the industry probably don't even realize it, so no don't worry about my thinking your trying to be rude. I don't, *I will suck up all information people who have been there will give. I guess that is why I'm on here trying to learn and get better* rather than being one of the ones who throws in the towel.




Good for you, keep that attitude and you'll go far. There are some that have crossed the paths of this forum that come with a chip on their shoulder and think they know every thing there is to know. 
They get rather seriously butt hurt when any one dares question their methods.
Keep in mind that there are folks on this forum that have been in the industry for 5 to 20 years.


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## AMDPreservation

I haven't had a years worth of repairs to be able to factor an average expense for that yet. But yes, sad thing is it is pretty darn close to what my husband used to make. Of course there are two of us now working instead of one so now that is two workers and an extra 1600/month for daycare. So yeah, your right.

I am not trying to justify any action by saying I have mouths to feed, as I truly didn't know I was doing anything "wrong" to anyone else by working my butt off for a smaller amount of pay. Although I can tell you my foot sure felt it was wrong the other day, lol.

So let me try and wrap my head around this. You don't condone any use of subcontractors at all? Just companies working for nationals with workers under them? 

But.. to work for a national they want 3 work references, and I've heard people say that they are tired of training workers only for them to go into the field for themselves after they trained them.

So, you must be a company who just starts out and gets in with a national with no previous subcontracting and have experience and references to boot?

I realize this is probably sounding rude. Us newbies must really drive you nuts with our convoluted thoughts. Again, I know you guys know what your talking about. I don't, I just really want to get how this is all supposed to work.


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## AMDPreservation

BPWY said:


> I'm going to address two comments. The first is "we MAKE as much".
> 
> I really question this, sure you probably GROSS a lot more than your hubby's old job. But its highly unlikely you MAKE as much if not more.
> As you are learning quickly it costs a lot to run a business. Every time you turn around there is a charge for some thing.
> There is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference between GROSS and the amount you MAKE.
> I think gross is self explanatory, MAKE is considered the amount thats left after expenses, INCLUDING insurances, equipment replacement costs, equip repairs, and the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for you, keep that attitude and you'll go far. There are some that have crossed the paths of this forum that come with a chip on their shoulder and think they know every thing there is to know.
> *They get rather seriously butt hurt when any one dares question their methods. *


 *I know where to go when I need a **:laughing:*


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## Weisspropmaintenance

Honestly for some newbies the best way to "learn" or just "try to see how this all works" as if the industry is an outlet for desperation or a fallback. I think the other issue with the industry is that people see this on Craigslist or knows of someone that does this work and think oh we're mowing lawns and snowplowing can't be that hard. Wrong, property preservation takes patience, dedication, selflessness, long hours, enough capital to be licensed and insured properly the right equipment and a contractor that takes pride in the work they do but I'm sorry but every single contractor will say that they deserve the best pay because their company is the best but if your company was the best and you were sought out by much of you community and well known then you should be so busy or atleast consistent that you wouldn't need to take the $20.00 grass cuts or the rest of the driven down rates because of these constant start up ventures or last resorts or Craigslist special of the month, the ads are always to glamerous aren't they? I'm not saying this to everyone, that's not it I'm venting basically because this is what it has come down to, I've said this in a older post. I'm not telling anyone not go into this field because I've seen this since mid 07 many contractors try it many fail within a year.


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## BRADSConst

AMDPreservation said:


> I haven't had a years worth of repairs to be able to factor an average expense for that yet. But yes, sad thing is it is pretty darn close to what my husband used to make.


If you haven't done this for a year yet, are you prepared for the income/self employment taxes that WILL hit you when the 1099's start rolling in? Are you putting away an estimated quarterly? Speaking from personal experience here, that was the big eye opener for me.

Also, don't wait for a year to factor in repairs. You can do all your overhead figuring month by month until you build a historical average. Something like a license paid yearly, just divide by 12. Monthly internet fees, divide by 1. One time blown tire, divide by 1. Next month, if you have no tire repairs, divide by 2 and go back and adjust the previous month....


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## GTX63

Tax returns are a blast. Your accountant tallys up all of your 1099s and then says "Ok, it looks like you owe the IRS $71,475.00. Do you have any expenses?"


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## Cleanupman

AMDPreservation said:


> I haven't had a years worth of repairs to be able to factor an average expense for that yet.  But yes, sad thing is it is pretty darn close to what my husband used to make. Of course there are two of us now working instead of one so now that is two workers and an extra 1600/month for daycare. So yeah, your right.
> 
> I am not trying to justify any action by saying I have mouths to feed, as I truly didn't know I was doing anything "wrong" to anyone else by working my butt off for a smaller amount of pay. Although I can tell you my foot sure felt it was wrong the other day, lol.
> 
> So let me try and wrap my head around this. You don't condone any use of subcontractors at all? Just companies working for nationals with workers under them?



You said.....I haven't had a years worth of repairs to be able to factor an average expense for that yet.....

Have you thought of this...take a business class...
Do you know how to perform a break even analysis on your services to know just how much they cost you to complete?
Do you understand the difference between break even point and break even analysis?
Do you understand how a cash flow statement works?
Have you written a business plan?
Do you have the proper licensing for the services you are performing?
Or have you just contacted your local county treasure's office and bought yourself a business license and expect to go from rags to riches because companies like Dreamstreet Investment fill your head with grandeur of making millions in the rapidly expanding foreclosure field service industry???

The industry preys on people with your business ignorance...


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## Weisspropmaintenance

One of the biggest misconceptions in this industry is people or "contractors" feel they know exactly what they are doing in their own mind which is great......for that specific contractor because even myself doing this since 2007 ill be the first to admit i do not know everything and i refuse to have the mindset that i do because if any contractor has a mind set they know it all and wont take any advise then that "contractor" will fail. This is a changing industry it is not all glamour and riches it isnt even close. You must plan on going into this planning on working your a$$ off and continuing to do so. *The best advise, input, or knowledge *i have taken from this forum is from *cleanupman, BPY, GTX, MTMTNMAN, and everyone else. *BUT going into this community of guys and girls closed minded and defensive will not work, everyone is willing to HELP to a certain EXTENT but i hate it when people come onto this forum and basically want to know where is the work! Who pays the best! Why this why that. And the thing i see alot of newcomers to this forum do is dont understand the search tool. its amazing. Click search and theres over 50 pages of threads on alot of stuff that has previously been talked about atleast once. In my opinion any newbie needs to do a thourough self evaluation on yourself and your company and be able to do what was stated about from cleanupman and bradsconst.


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## Stateline

Zoly said:


> I'm not trying to be rude at all but if you have noticed on this forum how people are reluctant to talk about who they work with, it's because competition is fierce. I think applying direct to his only client was a little messed up. Survival of the fittest though. Depends how you look at it.


i agree nobody likes to get their work snaked from them specially from a friend,


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## BPWY

Cleanupman said:


> The industry preys on people with your business ignorance...






That is a sad but very harsh reality for those on the receiving end of the screwing.


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## Weisspropmaintenance

Well the biggest thing is the lurkers on here that just keep checking on it for free information for their area where ever it may be and then they try to get in with them. No good deed goes unpunished.


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