# HUD Work



## SwiftRes

Hey guys,
We have not done HPIRs and other HUD work in the past. I'm sure it's something we could do, but providing pricing on something we haven't done before is difficult. I am aware of the issues of backfeeding, and that's not something we'd do. What is a fair price and/or estimate of time an HPIR takes? I am sure the $115 being offered is too low, but not sure what is appropriate. It notes that the HPIR inspection/minor securing needs done, but the other potential costly item is the safety hazards.


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## BRADSConst

Swift,

My best advice is to look over the HPIR. I think they are like 4 pages long if memory serves. Take the time to examine your own home and complete the form as if you had to do it on your home. Now look at the time involved, the labor required (either your own or your crews) and come up with a number. Than add on a PITA factor as well as an "Oh Chit, I forgot to include that" factor and go from there.

I'm curious who this is for. If you don't mind sharing, PM me the company name.

IMHO, anything less than $200 is too low, especially factoring in liability.


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## GTX63

HPIR inspections used to pay in the $125-$135 range, but they seemed to have been dropping in price. Lots of upfront liability regarding roofs, mold, mechanicals, etc. Usually wasn't a lot of debris, but quite of bit of time spent capping lines, outlet covers, handrails, and documentation.


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## SwiftRes

GTX63 said:


> HPIR inspections used to pay in the $125-$135 range, but they seemed to have been dropping in price. Lots of upfront liability regarding roofs, mold, mechanicals, etc. Usually wasn't a lot of debris, but quite of bit of time spent capping lines, outlet covers, handrails, and documentation.


I am unsure how it would be profitable at $125-$135 with the safety hazards though. Assuming <30 min drive time, is 3 per day feasible?


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## GTX63

I knew people doing $7 inspections that jumped all over them. We used to do them for a few nationals. They certainly are not 45 minute jobs. Yes, you can knock out three per day; you can cap some lines and outlets, doing a porch rail or two and walk away with $200. But you had better be on with your bids, your diagnosis, your documentation and your photos. The forms are like filling out tax addendums.I'd much rather make the same money to rekey a couple houses.


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## SwiftRes

GTX63 said:


> I knew people doing $7 inspections that jumped all over them. We used to do them for a few nationals. They certainly are not 45 minute jobs. Yes, you can knock out three per day; you can cap some lines and outlets, doing a porch rail or two and walk away with $200. But you had better be on with your bids, your diagnosis, your documentation and your photos. The forms are like filling out tax addendums.I'd much rather make the same money to rekey a couple houses.


Yeah I think we may pass. The way this is written, I don't believe you can charge extra to cap/handrail/etc? If you could charge extra for these items, it may make a little more sense. I think though they are trying to say this is included in HPIR price?


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## BPWY

To cover all of those safety hazards and make a profit you are either going to have to have a fully stocked work truck or operate very close to a HD or Lowes.

In rural areas you are easily driving an hour one way to buy supplies.


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## GTX63

Last time I checked handrails from the nationals paid around $10 per linear ft...before discount. Caps and cover plates...ah, not so much.


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## yanksjade

Let me guess you are doing work for Sentinal Field Services and good luck they might be the worst Ive ever seen.


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## GTX63

I believe the last pricing memo regarding handrails we got was from Safeguard, with a few other companies following right behind at the same rates. Sentinal wasn't one of them.


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## yanksjade

Well Sentinal just took over a bunch of states on Jan. 1 and they dont even address the issue of handrails with us. There pay is so broke and system no one is doing them and wait till HUD goes and inspects they wont be naughty or nice.


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## BRADSConst

GTX63 said:


> I believe the last pricing memo regarding handrails we got was from Safeguard, with a few other companies following right behind at the same rates. Sentinal wasn't one of them.


I bid my handrails to be code compliant at $10 LF and guard rails at $20 LF, unless its an REO with fancy ballustrades. They never get approved. Matter of fact, I used to get asked why I didn't bid to "slap up a 2x4". Sure that's all I need as a licensed contractor, who should know better, to get sued for knowingly violating building codes. I can picture little Johnny or Suzy falling while mommy and daddy are looking to get a great deal on their first home.

Now I'm being asked to do flat rate pricing to complete an HPIR and address the hazards. At least that's how Swift and I understand it. Forget that noise........


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## BPWY

SG pays $11 a foot for two rail 2x4. 


The last one I did a couple years ago I got the lumber from the job site. My cost was pennies for screws.


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## SwiftRes

BRADSConst said:


> I bid my handrails to be code compliant at $10 LF and guard rails at $20 LF, unless its an REO with fancy ballustrades. They never get approved. Matter of fact, I used to get asked why I didn't bid to "slap up a 2x4". Sure that's all I need as a licensed contractor, who should know better, to get sued for knowingly violating building codes. I can picture little Johnny or Suzy falling while mommy and daddy are looking to get a great deal on their first home.
> 
> Now I'm being asked to do flat rate pricing to complete an HPIR and address the hazards. At least that's how Swift and I understand it. Forget that noise........


 
I verified with Sentinel. In their $115 HPIR, included are handrails, hazards, etc. No extra for those items. At $11/LF, even with 20% discount or $8.80/lf. One 12' handrail would pay almost the same as the whole HPIR. But we would be expected to eat this cost. 

This is a situation in which I could be one of those contractors that says, "OK" and takes the jobs, cuts corners, skips hazards, and then when people ask why I cut corners, I can say that they don't pay enough and I can't afford to do a good job. I've seen a few references to this in other posts(ex., Safeguard doesn't pay enough for wints so I can't afford the anti-freeze so I'm "forced" to do a sub-par job).

OR, I can know there is no way to profitably do these the correct way and not agree to do them to begin with.

I'm going with the ladder.


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## GTX63

Last Safeguard/Fannie matrix lists $50 winterizations as well. Go thru a decent neighborhood in an area heavy in foreclosures, and look at all of the middle and upper class SFH with untreated rough sawn 2x4 posts and rails decorating the front porches. Lovely.


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## BRADSConst

SwiftRes said:


> I verified with Sentinel. In their $115 HPIR, included are handrails, hazards, etc. No extra for those items. At $11/LF, even with 20% discount or $8.80/lf. One 12' handrail would pay almost the same as the whole HPIR. But we would be expected to eat this cost.
> 
> This is a situation in which I could be one of those contractors that says, "OK" and takes the jobs, cuts corners, skips hazards, and then when people ask why I cut corners, I can say that they don't pay enough and I can't afford to do a good job. I've seen a few references to this in other posts(ex., Safeguard doesn't pay enough for wints so I can't afford the anti-freeze so I'm "forced" to do a sub-par job).
> 
> OR, I can know there is no way to profitably do these the correct way and not agree to do them to begin with.
> 
> I'm going with the ladder.


I'm in the same boat as you Swift. $115 is too low just to do a HPIR correctly. The liability is too high. Throw in the hazards as well and its "Thanks but no thanks for me" as I said in my PM, to many PPO's in my area that never got a bid approval for a hand rail or guardrail. Not to mention uncapped gas lines, missing switch plates covers, etc.

Then there is the biggest fib of all. "Don't worry, all that stuff was covered before the property conveyed"..... Just like all the debris and personals were removed


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## BPWY

GTX63 said:


> Last Safeguard/Fannie matrix lists $50 winterizations as well. Go thru a decent neighborhood in an area heavy in foreclosures, and look at all of the middle and upper class SFH with untreated rough sawn 2x4 posts and rails decorating the front porches. Lovely.



$50?????????? just WOW, guess I aint missing any thing once again.
In my defense the 2x4 I was referencing was interior on a house that was so bad that after 16 man hours of P&P janitorial ...... 
it *MIGHT*, emphasis on *MIGHT*, have been clean enough for merry maids to start cleaning on it.
Even after that it wasn't habitable without a remodel.




BRADSConst said:


> Then there is the biggest fib of all. "Don't worry, all that stuff was covered before the property conveyed"..... Just like all the debris and personals were removed



Oh yeah, I've often wondered how such houses ever convey when they are full of convey issues.


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## GTX63

Need to clarify: the $50 is for a rewint. We used to get that for just a pressure test.I'm not knocking contractors for putting up studs for rails and handholds; my point is some of the ridiculous items that have been done to properties, regardless of how much it makes it look worse. Also regardless of how much the realtor protests that has to put the place on the market and show it.


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## BRADSConst

GTX63 said:


> Need to clarify: the $50 is for a rewint. We used to get that for just a pressure test.I'm not knocking contractors for putting up studs for rails and handholds; my point is some of the ridiculous items that have been done to properties, regardless of how much it makes it look worse. Also regardless of how much the realtor protests that has to put the place on the market and show it.


I do knock "contractors" for putting up 2x4's. In Wisconsin, a 2x4 doesn't meet UDC for a handrail. All "contractors" know this. It burns me when regionals or nationals tell someone to "slap up a 2x4", especially after I tell them it is not code compliant.


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## BPWY

BRADSConst said:


> I do knock "contractors" for putting up 2x4's. In Wisconsin, a 2x4 doesn't meet UDC for a handrail. All "contractors" know this. It burns me when regionals or nationals tell someone to "slap up a 2x4", especially after I tell them it is not code compliant.





The condition of the house I was referring to was similar to rough construction where a two rail 2x4 railing is acceptable.


I never have put 2x4 up in a finished house where folks could legitimately be expected to move in and set up living quarters.
In those cases I always bought honest to god handrail and attached it to handrail hardware to studs.


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## GTX63

The 2x4 scenario has been clarified (to me) by several nationals to mean that it is a temporary safety measure only, to be ammended or upgraded by the new homeowner at their discretion. In other words, it might look like krap on a quarter million dollar front porch, but the buyer can do with it however they want. And I know I am beating a dead horse, but the $10/$11 per lf is before they get their 20-25%. So I'm not on anyone for throwing these up at basically cost. If you took the HPIR, then you are tied to it or you put up the good stuff on your dime.


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## BPWY

Similar to pulling carpet and not reinstalling it so that the new HO can install what they want.

Or to painting the entire house off white so the new HO has a fresh slate to start customizing it.


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## BRADSConst

Sorry guys, I'm just not buying it. If little Johnny reaches for a non-code compliant handrail and goes tumbling down the steps, you can damn well bet that his parents attorney isn't going to give 2 chits that a national told you it was only to be a temporary measure.

I'm not talking about installing a stained oak handrail. I'm talking about a cheap piece of unfinished pine that happens to comply with the correct size, height off the tread and lateral strength (won't pull out of the wall). Way to many 2x4 rails around here that I would argue are more dangerous than nothing at all.

Im not an attorney, but when the work orders state "bid to cure hazards" or "bid approval to install a handrail" the contractor is going to get killed in court and that is before the national or regional throws them under the bus, and then drives over the top of them repeatedly.

This is no different than cutting corners when it comes to the EPA and Lead Paint RRP. Ignorance is not an acceptable defense. The fines are high and you can bet that the guys/gals at the bottom are going to be the ones that suffer.


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## BRADSConst

BPWY said:


> Similar to pulling carpet and not reinstalling it so that the new HO can install what they want.
> 
> Or to painting the entire house off white so the new HO has a fresh slate to start customizing it.


I don't think it is similar to removing carpet. When carpet is removed, you can't leave a trip hazard behind when done. That is why I alsway bid to remove the tackless as well. I'm not leaving anything sharp that little Johnny gets hurt on while his parents are talking with the broker. The liability isn't worth the risk.


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## SwiftRes

I offered to cover a large portion of the state at $250. I was told no thanks, that many other contractors are accepting the $115 price. I declined.


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## GTX63

BRADSConst said:


> Sorry guys, I'm just not buying it. If little Johnny reaches for a non-code compliant handrail and goes tumbling down the steps, you can damn well bet that his parents attorney isn't going to give 2 chits that a national told you it was only to be a temporary measure.
> This is no different than cutting corners when it comes to the EPA and Lead Paint RRP. Ignorance is not an acceptable defense. The fines are high and you can bet that the guys/gals at the bottom are going to be the ones that suffer.


I didn't read anyone selling it. I'm saying they are cheap, ugly, dangerous; someone at HUD made this a minimum standard and the Nationals are going for a money grab. We have QC'd properties that Bubba and Larry the cable guy jr just pounded the studs into the dirt next to the porch and screwed another stud on as the handrail. They push over and are worthless. Nationals we worked for paid approx $1 per square yard to pull up carpet, including the pad and the tack strip. We no longer waste time with that baloney and yes, the last one to touch the job is "It".


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## Cleanupman

When we first got into HUD work we agreed to do HIPR's...I won't do them anymore for the money being forced on everyone....
They consume 4-5 man hours when done to specs and that is if nothing goes wrong...In addition we were expected to PROVIDE all sorts of extras on our dime....To me this is a $300 service minimum...I'm hearing that the electrical systems check portion of this service is actually ilagel in some places and that electricians are billing up to $500 for just that part of the HIPR...
Myself I just think the way you have to go about it is a littl dangerous and to us not worth the liability for the money...sorta like doing a $40 wint...just not worth it...


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## BRADSConst

Cleanupman said:


> When we first got into HUD work we agreed to do HIPR's...I won't do them anymore for the money being forced on everyone....
> They consume 4-5 man hours when done to specs and that is if nothing goes wrong...In addition we were expected to PROVIDE all sorts of extras on our dime....To me this is a $300 service minimum...I'm hearing that the electrical systems check portion of this service is actually ilagel in some places and that electricians are billing up to $500 for just that part of the HIPR...
> Myself I just think the way you have to go about it is a littl dangerous and to us not worth the liability for the money...sorta like doing a $40 wint...just not worth it...


Correct. As I posted on the FB page, in any state that follows the NEC code it is illegal to backfeed an electrical system. And if there is one that doesn't follow NEC, still DO NOT BACKFEED.

_NEC_ 702.6 specifies that the transfer equipment shall be installed to prevent paralleling of the normal (Utility) and alternate (Generator) sources

I have a good friend of mine who interned at a South Dakota power plant. He told me a story when a turbine was brought back online out of phase with the electrical grid. He said a couple million dollar turbine jumped 8' off the floor and destroyed it. The guy who did it got fired on the spot.

In a previous life, I earned a bachelors degree in electrical engineering. So I'm a tad more intelligent than the cubicle jockey telling me to backfeed. The US grid runs a 60 Hz AC signal. The voltages at the power pole are much higher than the 240V dryer plug. I am not taking the liability for destroying a pole mounted transformer or worse yet hurting a utility worker.

Backup generators are installed frequently and are done safely using permanent methods. Those methods do NOT include your 5kW portable generator plugged into the dryer plug :no::no:


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## BRADSConst

P.S. when I asked my electrician about this, he said "why would anyone be so stupid. I'lll be more than happy to meet the POCO there and inspect everything before/while/after they energize the meter socket." His price was a tiny bit (sarcasm) higher than than what they want to pay for the whole HPIR


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## Gypsos

I have a question. For clarification purposes. I am not recommending anyone do this. If you do you, assume the risk and consequenses that result. 

When you refer to backfeeding you mean through an outlet in the house to energize a house, correct. 

I understand the hazards of this because the circuit may not be able to handle the current load and could damage the circuit or even cause a fire. 

Is it also considered backfeeding if the circuit is directly wired into the main power panel? Power is then provided just like the power company but just from my generator. 

I understand you have to isolate the house from the grid (i.e. turn off the service main breaker or yank the meter).

I have done this at my home during emergencies (hurricane and power was out for a week or longer).


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## GTX63

Feeding power from a generator into the properties electrical system thru a 110/220 outlet, a breaker panel, etc. You cannot be certain there isn't a sub panel, a hidden kill switch, a chicken wired setup that only the previous homeowner knew about, or in one case with us, an electrical system that was sabatoged in order to cause property damage and/or physical harm.


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## 68W30

BRADSConst said:


> Correct. As I posted on the FB page, in any state that follows the NEC code it is illegal to backfeed an electrical system. And if there is one that doesn't follow NEC, still DO NOT BACKFEED.
> 
> _NEC_ 702.6 specifies that the transfer equipment shall be installed to prevent paralleling of the normal (Utility) and alternate (Generator) sources
> 
> I have a good friend of mine who interned at a South Dakota power plant. He told me a story when a turbine was brought back online out of phase with the electrical grid. He said a couple million dollar turbine jumped 8' off the floor and destroyed it. The guy who did it got fired on the spot.
> 
> In a previous life, I earned a bachelors degree in electrical engineering. So I'm a tad more intelligent than the cubicle jockey telling me to backfeed. The US grid runs a 60 Hz AC signal. The voltages at the power pole are much higher than the 240V dryer plug. I am not taking the liability for destroying a pole mounted transformer or worse yet hurting a utility worker.
> 
> Backup generators are installed frequently and are done safely using permanent methods. Those methods do NOT include your 5kW portable generator plugged into the dryer plug :no::no:



_NEC_ 702.6 specifies that the transfer equipment shall be installed to prevent paralleling of the normal (Utility) and alternate (Generator) sources 


copy and paste above into a TXT file for future use when doing battle for the why you didnt do it


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## BRADSConst

GTX63 said:


> Feeding power from a generator into the properties electrical system thru a 110/220 outlet, a breaker panel, etc. You cannot be certain there isn't a sub panel, a hidden kill switch, a chicken wired setup that only the previous homeowner knew about, or in one case with us, an electrical system that was sabatoged in order to cause property damage and/or physical harm.


I've been to numerous houses, farmettes, mobile homes, etc. that exihibited all of the above. Some of the farms, have multiple meter sockets and breaker panels located in each out building and sometimes on a pole in the middle of the yard. I was at one place in the last 2 weeks that the panel in the house was converted to the sub panel when a newer panel and service was installed in the garage. I can guarantee you alot of people would have missed that and thought the house panel was the main. I can't count the number of times I've seen people remove "their" light fixtures and wire nut the power, ground and neutral together.

When multiple panels are involved, you run the risk you having grounding loops. Too many homeowners think they know what they are doing when they try to save money and DIY the wiring.

Bottom line. Its not worth the risk to me, guys working with me, the lineman from the POCO, the neighbors 100" flat screen LED TV, my ability to retire healthy and financially secure, etc.

As a side question, has anyone here called their insurance carrier and asked if they are covered if they illegally perform an electrical backfeed that violates NEC ?:confused1:


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## BRADSConst

Gypsos said:


> I have a question. For clarification purposes. I am not recommending anyone do this. If you do you, assume the risk and consequenses that result.
> 
> When you refer to backfeeding you mean through an outlet in the house to energize a house, correct.
> 
> I understand the hazards of this because the circuit may not be able to handle the current load and could damage the circuit or even cause a fire.
> 
> Is it also considered backfeeding if the circuit is directly wired into the main power panel? Power is then provided just like the power company but just from my generator.
> 
> I understand you have to isolate the house from the grid (i.e. turn off the service main breaker or yank the meter).
> 
> I have done this at my home during emergencies (hurricane and power was out for a week or longer).


I should be more careful when I type. When I refered previously to backfeeding, I talked about dryer plugs and range plugs. The reason for that was because every national and regional I have talked too suggested this. None of them ever told me personally to "pull the panel apart". I was always told, "make up an extension cord with two male ends on it". Presumably because its faster and we all know that $125 per HPIR, or less, no one has time to waste.

Disclaimer: I am not a master licensed electrician. I do have a BSEE which in Wisconsin would shave 2 years off of journeymans card. With that being said, here is my personal definition of backfeeding: Installing a temporary (portable) generator for the purposes of energizing a home's wiring without having the proper transfer switches and disconnects permanently installed.

I have thankfully never experienced a power outage that lasted longer than 4 to 5 hours. In a situation where the power would be off for an extended period of time, my electrician would be coming over to install the necessary permanant devices and explain to me how I can safely energize my home. Like all of you on here, my home contains the most important things in the world to me. My wife and kids. I won't to anything do jeapordize them because "I think I know what I'm doing". I can easily replace the money it would cost to have my electrician do this. I not easily replace my wife and kids.

As a side note. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not run any generators inside your house, or attached garage. Carbon Monoxide kills. If no one here listens to what I say about backfeeding, do listen to what I'm saying about carbon monoxide.


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## Cleanupman

I sent the specs for this service to our local Energy provider.....
Hello

Here are the steps that we are being asked to compplete.
I sincerely aperciate your assistance with this.
Thank you...

Steps required to do a normal electrical systems and appliance test:
1. If power is already ON at the property, test the systems normally - DO NOT PROCEED WITH THE FOLLOWING STEPS!
2. Complete safety checklist
3. Turn generator ON
4. Plug appropriate extension cord (male-female, NOT male-male) into generator
5. Test each individual component using a suitable extension cord. Each component should be tested individually. For example, first test the refrigerator, then the microwave, then the washer, etc.
6. Turn generator OFF and make sure that all breakers and the main switches are OFF. Lock out or duct tape the main breaker to ensure that it is not turned back on prematurely.
7. Attach back feed cable to an appropriate 240V receptacle using the adapter. Duct tape the plug in place once it is in the receptacle to prevent it coming loose and falling out of receptacle
8. Connect the extension cord to the adapter. Any jumper adapter connected must also be duct-taped in place.
9. At this point the generator should be off with no cables connected to it and there should be a cable running from the receptacle block to the general location of the generator
10. Turn generator ON
11. Insert cable into generator
12. The first switch to be turned on is the switch that is directly connected to the dryer or oven block, depending on which one you are using
13. Starting with sub-panel breaker switches, turn them ON one at a time, but never touch the main breaker switch!
14. Only turn on the minor component breaker switches. For example, do not turn on the HVAC (or any 240V) switches, nor should you turn on the water heater switch.
15. Check components and/or fixture switches, turning them on and off one at a time
16. Turn all breaker switches OFF again
17. If HVAC system has an electrical component continue with the following steps:

Make sure any subpanel switches to the HVAC system are OFF
Make sure the thermostat is OFF
Turn on breaker switches related to the HVAC system, starting from the one closest to the HVAC components and working your way back through any subpanels then to the main breaker panel. AGAIN—DO NOT EVER TURN ON THE MAIN BREAKER WHILE THE GENERATOR IS CONNECTED!
Turn ON the thermostat
Go to HVAC component and see if the fan is on or if you hear the compressor engage
Turn OFF the thermostat
Turn OFF all breaker switches

18. Turn OFF generator
19. Remove all cables
20. Remove all safety measures that were put in place while completing the safety checklist
21. Leave all switches in the OFF position
22. Report results on your PSR

Here is there response....

Hi Aaron,
The important thing about this whole test is that you don't want to turn the generator on while the power from the NV Energy grid is still on, too. The generator has no way to sync its signal to our signal, so it could cause some major problems for you. You want to make sure the main breaker in your electrical panel is turned off before connecting the generator up to anything in the house.

The list of steps below confuses me a little. I don’t know what type of generator or cables these are, but it seems like steps 3, 4, and 5 shouldn’t be completed until after step 6 where you tape the main breaker open. That is what I would recommend. As long as the main is off, you can plug the generator into a 240 Volt receptacle and it will backfeed the circuitry in the house back to your breaker panel. Then you can test all of your sub-breakers and light switches, etc.

Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!

Toni Powell, P.E.
Senior Regional Engineer
NV Energy
P.O. Box 10100
1 Ohm Place
Reno, NV 89520


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## PropPresPro

Cleanupman said:


> I sent the specs for this service to our local Energy provider.....
> Hello
> 
> Here are the steps that we are being asked to compplete.
> I sincerely aperciate your assistance with this.
> Thank you...
> 
> Steps required to do a normal electrical systems and appliance test:
> 1. If power is already ON at the property, test the systems normally - DO NOT PROCEED WITH THE FOLLOWING STEPS!
> 2. Complete safety checklist
> 3. Turn generator ON
> 4. Plug appropriate extension cord (male-female, NOT male-male) into generator
> 5. Test each individual component using a suitable extension cord. Each component should be tested individually. For example, first test the refrigerator, then the microwave, then the washer, etc.
> 6. Turn generator OFF and make sure that all breakers and the main switches are OFF. Lock out or duct tape the main breaker to ensure that it is not turned back on prematurely.
> 7. Attach back feed cable to an appropriate 240V receptacle using the adapter. Duct tape the plug in place once it is in the receptacle to prevent it coming loose and falling out of receptacle
> 8. Connect the extension cord to the adapter. Any jumper adapter connected must also be duct-taped in place.
> 9. At this point the generator should be off with no cables connected to it and there should be a cable running from the receptacle block to the general location of the generator
> 10. Turn generator ON
> 11. Insert cable into generator
> 12. The first switch to be turned on is the switch that is directly connected to the dryer or oven block, depending on which one you are using
> 13. Starting with sub-panel breaker switches, turn them ON one at a time, but never touch the main breaker switch!
> 14. Only turn on the minor component breaker switches. For example, do not turn on the HVAC (or any 240V) switches, nor should you turn on the water heater switch.
> 15. Check components and/or fixture switches, turning them on and off one at a time
> 16. Turn all breaker switches OFF again
> 17. If HVAC system has an electrical component continue with the following steps:
> 
> Make sure any subpanel switches to the HVAC system are OFF
> Make sure the thermostat is OFF
> Turn on breaker switches related to the HVAC system, starting from the one closest to the HVAC components and working your way back through any subpanels then to the main breaker panel. AGAIN—DO NOT EVER TURN ON THE MAIN BREAKER WHILE THE GENERATOR IS CONNECTED!
> Turn ON the thermostat
> Go to HVAC component and see if the fan is on or if you hear the compressor engage
> Turn OFF the thermostat
> Turn OFF all breaker switches
> 
> 18. Turn OFF generator
> 19. Remove all cables
> 20. Remove all safety measures that were put in place while completing the safety checklist
> 21. Leave all switches in the OFF position
> 22. Report results on your PSR
> 
> Here is there response....
> 
> Hi Aaron,
> The important thing about this whole test is that you don't want to turn the generator on while the power from the NV Energy grid is still on, too. The generator has no way to sync its signal to our signal, so it could cause some major problems for you. You want to make sure the main breaker in your electrical panel is turned off before connecting the generator up to anything in the house.
> 
> The list of steps below confuses me a little. I don’t know what type of generator or cables these are, but it seems like steps 3, 4, and 5 shouldn’t be completed until after step 6 where you tape the main breaker open. That is what I would recommend. As long as the main is off, you can plug the generator into a 240 Volt receptacle and it will backfeed the circuitry in the house back to your breaker panel. Then you can test all of your sub-breakers and light switches, etc.
> 
> Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!
> 
> Toni Powell, P.E.
> Senior Regional Engineer
> NV Energy
> P.O. Box 10100
> 1 Ohm Place
> Reno, NV 89520


Now send that to OSHA and see what they have to say about it!


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## Cleanupman

PropPresPro said:


> Now send that to OSHA and see what they have to say about it!


 
GOOD POINT....I'll do that and see what is said...I think the sentiment is correct on this...we just will not do them...


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## BRADSConst

Cleanupman said:


> GOOD POINT....I'll do that and see what is said...I think the sentiment is correct on this...we just will not do them...


Check with your insurance company as well.....


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## Gypsos

BRADSConst said:


> I should be more careful when I type. When I refered previously to backfeeding, I talked about dryer plugs and range plugs. The reason for that was because every national and regional I have talked too suggested this. None of them ever told me personally to "pull the panel apart". I was always told, "make up an extension cord with two male ends on it". Presumably because its faster and we all know that $125 per HPIR, or less, no one has time to waste.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am not a master licensed electrician. I do have a BSEE which in Wisconsin would shave 2 years off of journeymans card. With that being said, here is my personal definition of backfeeding: Installing a temporary (portable) generator for the purposes of energizing a home's wiring without having the proper transfer switches and disconnects permanently installed.
> 
> I have thankfully never experienced a power outage that lasted longer than 4 to 5 hours. In a situation where the power would be off for an extended period of time, my electrician would be coming over to install the necessary permanant devices and explain to me how I can safely energize my home. Like all of you on here, my home contains the most important things in the world to me. My wife and kids. I won't to anything do jeapordize them because "I think I know what I'm doing". I can easily replace the money it would cost to have my electrician do this. I not easily replace my wife and kids.
> 
> As a side note. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not run any generators inside your house, or attached garage. Carbon Monoxide kills. If no one here listens to what I say about backfeeding, do listen to what I'm saying about carbon monoxide.


Cool. I just wanted clarification. I do not do the extension cord trick either. I also have the advantage of having a son who is an electrician and an uncle who maintains and installs emergency power systems for hospitals, banks, etc. 

My uncle was the one who showed me how to do the temp hookup. With his help I have installed permanent connections to my house to allow for easy and safe connections for the next time I need them.

We calculated what to turn off or on and how to utilize proper load management to ensure it operates safely. 

I would not recommend doing this without the help of someone specially trained. And I would never do this to a house I was working on because you have no clue as to the integrity of the electrical system.


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## idaho

I need to ask you cleanupman, I may have missed it but did you local energy guy understand these are steps being ask of guys that maybe qualified as lawn care guys and are not license electrician trying to follow a procedure?


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## STARBABY

idaho said:


> I need to ask you cleanupman, I may have missed it but did you local energy guy understand these are steps being ask of guys that maybe qualified as lawn care guys and are not license electrician trying to follow a procedure?


 
very good point!


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## 1234

pk management is bull....


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