# FNMA Wints



## IPS (May 24, 2015)

So i have been to several properties over the past month to do rewints. I have been told to walk away from properties if they have wet systems. If they don't go through the whole procedure, even if they have been previously winterized. So i did...and only one passed the pressure test. All other had burst pipes. These properties were previously under the watch of SG. I have noticed wintz stickers dated in April and May. :vs_OMG:Many of the hacks didn't do them right and didn't care or the property was already compromised? So the best part is i show up at a property today to do a GC and i see a notice stating that property had been recently winterized by the broker because it had a wet system. My curiosity got me and i had to inspect their work. First thing i checked, drain valve on boiler. open the valve and water starts gushing out, water heater same. So did the broker actually wint the system? I didn't waste anymore time checking the heating zones. I already saw what i needed to see. Don't know if I am going to call the broker. I have had to many ridiculous requests to return to a property and preform xxxx and too many failed BSOs!:biggrin: J/k i already put the call in and hopefully can pick up some more work!:vs_smile:


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*Assero's FNMA contract does not include wet systems*



IPS said:


> So i have been to several properties over the past month to do rewints. I have been told to walk away from properties if they have wet systems. If they don't go through the whole procedure, even if they have been previously winterized. So i did...and only one passed the pressure test. All other had burst pipes. These properties were previously under the watch of SG. I have noticed wintz stickers dated in April and May. :vs_OMG:Many of the hacks didn't do them right and didn't care or the property was already compromised? So the best part is i show up at a property today to do a GC and i see a notice stating that property had been recently winterized by the broker because it had a wet system. My curiosity got me and i had to inspect their work. First thing i checked, drain valve on boiler. open the valve and water starts gushing out, water heater same. So did the broker actually wint the system? I didn't waste anymore time checking the heating zones. I already saw what i needed to see. Don't know if I am going to call the broker. I have had to many ridiculous requests to return to a property and preform xxxx and too many failed BSOs!:biggrin: J/k i already put the call in and hopefully can pick up some more work!:vs_smile:


This is actually a good thing, the contractor makes more money per unit, with less liability. Walk away. On the P&P side where you must check the integrity of the wint on every order this time of year, I have found one system so far without water. The last one was supposedly winterized on 10/5. The system was full right to the top, and it was actually a rewint. Two companies had previously winterized this system, at least. The worst part of it is, both of those companies pay enough to do it correctly.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

FNMA realtors turn heat on thus the reason for not winterizing wet systems.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I have yet to see a wet system turned on*



Wannabe said:


> FNMA realtors turn heat on thus the reason for not winterizing wet systems.


on a FNMA property unless it was just for an inspection. That's what the policy is, but it almost never happens. The brokers will just let them freeze. Then an inspector will fail the QC for a dirty wall when the radiators explode.


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## disgusted (Sep 18, 2015)

IPS said:


> So i have been to several properties over the past month to do rewints. I have been told to walk away from properties if they have wet systems. If they don't go through the whole procedure, even if they have been previously winterized. So i did...and only one passed the pressure test. All other had burst pipes. These properties were previously under the watch of SG. I have noticed wintz stickers dated in April and May. :vs_OMG:Many of the hacks didn't do them right and didn't care or the property was already compromised? So the best part is i show up at a property today to do a GC and i see a notice stating that property had been recently winterized by the broker because it had a wet system. My curiosity got me and i had to inspect their work. First thing i checked, drain valve on boiler. open the valve and water starts gushing out, water heater same. So did the broker actually wint the system? I didn't waste anymore time checking the heating zones. I already saw what i needed to see. Don't know if I am going to call the broker. I have had to many ridiculous requests to return to a property and preform xxxx and too many failed BSOs!:biggrin: J/k i already put the call in and hopefully can pick up some more work!:vs_smile:


When you pay peanuts all you ever get is monkeys ! Time and time again I have found water present in all systems after property " winterized " by 2 other contractors. Brokers even have a hard time with a simple lock change.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Really? Maybe it's the zone/area or a bad realtor? Here nearly all FNMA homes are rehabbed and must pass occupancy inspection before sale unless it is a complete dump. It's smart to see the properties winterized since we do see a major ice storm once a winter and power goes out--sometimes for multiple days--that is the reason the realtors hire plumbers to add Triethylene to the wet systems so the system doesn't freeze. Then again I work with very smart and savvy realtors.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

disgusted said:


> When you pay peanuts all you ever get is monkeys ! Time and time again I have found water present in all systems after property " winterized " by 2 other contractors. Brokers even have a hard time with a simple lock change.


A full water heater is one thing, but a little water left behind can be very common. Most P&P contractors, and I use that term loosely, don't use a compressor with high enough CFM to remove all the water. I would bet a case of beer that fewer than 5 people on this forum own/rent a large enough compressor for wet systems. Water gets pushed around (vapor lock) and then over time settles back to lowest point.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> Really? Maybe it's the zone/area or a bad realtor? Here nearly all FNMA homes are rehabbed and must pass occupancy inspection before sale unless it is a complete dump. It's smart to see the properties winterized since we do see a major ice storm once a winter and power goes out--sometimes for multiple days--that is the reason the realtors hire plumbers to add Triethylene to the wet systems so the system doesn't freeze. Then again I work with very smart and savvy realtors.


A lot of our homes are dumpy and don't get rehabbed. However, unless its a damaged wet system, the heat is turned on and set to 55.

I think the problem is lazy realtors that don't want to wait or submit the paperwork to get reimbursed for utility expenses.


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Almost all homes in our area are sold as is. Very very rarely do they ever rehab one.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

I think it is the realtor being unknowledgable? Houses sell faster and for more when fixed. Higher sale price = higher commissions.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*During wint season I had generally expanded my territory*



Wannabe said:


> Really? Maybe it's the zone/area or a bad realtor? Here nearly all FNMA homes are rehabbed and must pass occupancy inspection before sale unless it is a complete dump. It's smart to see the properties winterized since we do see a major ice storm once a winter and power goes out--sometimes for multiple days--that is the reason the realtors hire plumbers to add Triethylene to the wet systems so the system doesn't freeze. Then again I work with very smart and savvy realtors.


for FNMA to include many brokers and have yet to see a FNMA REO property with an operational wet heating system, aside from a pre-sale inspection. In fact we had generally de-winterized, inspected and re-winterized. So I find it a reasonable assumption that is is a pretty broad issue and not confined to any small area or group of brokers. 

In fact it has been my experience that most FNMA homes are sold with damaged systems and as is. 

It is also a safe bet that the brokers will likely blow it under the new contract. There is however the possibility that they will step up their game, now that they are solely responsible for the systems, but I wouldn't bet on it.


Luckily, the vast majority of higher end homes in my area are dry or refrigerant charged systems.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*For wints I use an 11 CFM gas compressor*



BRADSConst said:


> A full water heater is one thing, but a little water left behind can be very common. Most P&P contractors, and I use that term loosely, don't use a compressor with high enough CFM to remove all the water. I would bet a case of beer that fewer than 5 people on this forum own/rent a large enough compressor for wet systems. Water gets pushed around (vapor lock) and then over time settles back to lowest point.


I do the domestic side first, while the heating system is gravity draining. Then allow the large compressor to run on the heating loop and boiler the entire time I am adding anti-freeze, placing stickers,cleaning toilets etc, usually at least 20 minutes. I always add a little anti-freeze to the boiler just to keep any small amount of water from causing damage.

I honestly believe a lot of guys just have a compressor for the camera and don't even plug it in.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Odd. FNMA gives preferential treatment to owner occupants and the vast majority of those loans go through home inspections that need working systems. When sold as-is it's primarily cash sales thus predominately investors. Realtors that are knowledgable understand fix the house, if not a shack and get a 50-60% higher sale price. 

The lazy realtor lets the property go to investor since it is less hassle in the sale process BUT FNMA penalizes the realtor if to many homes are sold to non-owner/occupants. I saw a list of FNMA top brokers a couple years ago and 3 of the top 10 were ones we work with. Like I said "smart and savvy" and they are recouping our tax dollars.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I'm sure your area is the exception*



Wannabe said:


> Odd. FNMA gives preferential treatment to owner occupants and the vast majority of those loans go through home inspections that need working systems. When sold as-is it's primarily cash sales thus predominately investors. Realtors that are knowledgable understand fix the house, if not a shack and get a 50-60% higher sale price.
> 
> The lazy realtor lets the property go to investor since it is less hassle in the sale process BUT FNMA penalizes the realtor if to many homes are sold to non-owner/occupants. I saw a list of FNMA top brokers a couple years ago and 3 of the top 10 were ones we work with. Like I said "smart and savvy" and they are recouping our tax dollars.


that proves the rule.


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

BRADSConst said:


> A full water heater is one thing, but a little water left behind can be very common. Most P&P contractors, and I use that term loosely, don't use a compressor with high enough CFM to remove all the water. I would bet a case of beer that fewer than 5 people on this forum own/rent a large enough compressor for wet systems. Water gets pushed around (vapor lock) and then over time settles back to lowest point.


IF there is a pressure regulator bypass....Gravity drain and the close off the water heater hot side...with a small compressor (takes a while-10-15 min) charge the enter cold side, including the water heater to 130 PSI. The water heater tank is like an auxillary tank. This is safe because the water heater blowoff is 150 PSI. Now you've got 40-60 gallons of compressed air to blow your lines. Works great.


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## disgusted (Sep 18, 2015)

I honestly believe a lot of guys just have a compressor for the camera and don't even plug it in.[/QUOTE]


I hope "plug it in" refers to the hose connections not the electrical outlets. I do have an electric compressor but use it at home only. I 
do suppose some guys do use elect. but not me. Gas powered ( Honda) compressor with 130 PSI setting hooked to each boiler drain valve while venting each heat register. Wet systems always take me at least 2 hrs. to complete.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*One would hope.*



disgusted said:


> I honestly believe a lot of guys just have a compressor for the camera and don't even plug it in.


 
I hope "plug it in" refers to the hose connections not the electrical outlets. I do have an electric compressor but use it at home only. I 
do suppose some guys do use elect. but not me. Gas powered ( Honda) compressor with 130 PSI setting hooked to each boiler drain valve while venting each heat register. Wet systems always take me at least 2 hrs. to complete.[/QUOTE]

It is however completely unnecessary to pressurize from different points in the system in nearly all cases. Basic hydraulic theory states (The pressures are equal at all points in a closed hydraulic system). Venting each radiator while the system is pressurized just makes a mess and allows for fluid flow in the wrong direction, forcing fluid into the radiator, not out of it. But if you need the exercise, go for it.


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## disgusted (Sep 18, 2015)

Ohnojim said:


> I hope "plug it in" refers to the hose connections not the electrical outlets. I do have an electric compressor but use it at home only. I
> do suppose some guys do use elect. but not me. Gas powered ( Honda) compressor with 130 PSI setting hooked to each boiler drain valve while venting each heat register. Wet systems always take me at least 2 hrs. to complete.


It is however completely unnecessary to pressurize from different points in the system in nearly all cases. Basic hydraulic theory states (The pressures are equal at all points in a closed hydraulic system). Venting each radiator while the system is pressurized just makes a mess and allows for fluid flow in the wrong direction, forcing fluid into the radiator, not out of it. But if you need the exercise, go for it.[/QUOTE]

Yep, up and down the stairs is great exercise but having the ridiculous amount of photos sure keeps the reviewer from being a pain. I do disagree with fluid flow in the wrong direction. Of course draining the system before pressurizing does help:angel:


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*In most cases it is not even necessary to connect to the boiler at all*



disgusted said:


> It is however completely unnecessary to pressurize from different points in the system in nearly all cases. Basic hydraulic theory states (The pressures are equal at all points in a closed hydraulic system). Venting each radiator while the system is pressurized just makes a mess and allows for fluid flow in the wrong direction, forcing fluid into the radiator, not out of it. But if you need the exercise, go for it.


Yep, up and down the stairs is great exercise but having the ridiculous amount of photos sure keeps the reviewer from being a pain. I do disagree with fluid flow in the wrong direction. Of course draining the system before pressurizing does help:angel:[/QUOTE]

When you close all the valves in the domestic system and move the pressure regulator to the fast fill position you will pressurize the heating system, without ever moving your compressor connection. As the heavier fluid (water) is trying to settle in the lighter fluid (air), you are opening a bleeder higher in the system and working against the natural tendency of the heavier fluid (water) to settle out and you are forcing it up in the system. You should be working with gravity when the system is open, not against it, by opening the lowest valve in the system, generally the boiler drain valve. 

You can disagree all you want, I'm just trying to save you some running up and down. I will also close the boiler valve and open the purge valves on the return side of the individual zones reversing the fluid flow, but all that is really doing is blowing that short piece of pipe and the valve right at that point.


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> I think it is the realtor being unknowledgable? Houses sell faster and for more when fixed. Higher sale price = higher commissions.


Oh we bid Rehabs all the time as a matter of fact I have done so many I charge for them. The problem is in our market if you put 30k into a house you usually get 25-30k back so it's often a break even proposition or worse.


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## AceVentura (Sep 6, 2015)

Ohnojim said:


> Yep, up and down the stairs is great exercise but having the ridiculous amount of photos sure keeps the reviewer from being a pain. I do disagree with fluid flow in the wrong direction. Of course draining the system before pressurizing does help:angel:


When you close all the valves in the domestic system and move the pressure regulator to the fast fill position you will pressurize the heating system, without ever moving your compressor connection. As the heavier fluid (water) is trying to settle in the lighter fluid (air), you are opening a bleeder higher in the system and working against the natural tendency of the heavier fluid (water) to settle out and you are forcing it up in the system. You should be working with gravity when the system is open, not against it, by opening the lowest valve in the system, generally the boiler drain valve. 

You can disagree all you want, I'm just trying to save you some running up and down. I will also close the boiler valve and open the purge valves on the return side of the individual zones reversing the fluid flow, but all that is really doing is blowing that short piece of pipe and the valve right at that point.[/QUOTE]


I have always thought it is best to seperate systems, basically you have your domestic wint with pressure test & heating side with pressure test.

I will actually go as far as disconnecting the two sides at the main feed line to make sure that I get everything drained up to the heating system,

After overflow is gravity drained pressurize through overflow, drain from various drains, close of zones and drain, close off return valve and drain, on and on. 

Takes for ever but not being a plumber I have always felt safer taking for ever on the wet wints.

I like the utility pump to the boiler, I have always used a funnel to get antifreeze into the boiler and it is always a pain in as*.


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## AceVentura (Sep 6, 2015)

BRADSConst said:


> A full water heater is one thing, but a little water left behind can be very common. Most P&P contractors, and I use that term loosely, don't use a compressor with high enough CFM to remove all the water. I would bet a case of beer that fewer than 5 people on this forum own/rent a large enough compressor for wet systems. Water gets pushed around (vapor lock) and then over time settles back to lowest point.



I know that few have a compressor with the ability to do an outdoor sprinkler system.

I further assume that you are talking about radiant / in floor heat? I would never touch one, a good reason it shouldn't be done additionally is because they are usually filled with glycol.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*If you have a leak it you will need to isolate*



AceVentura said:


> When you close all the valves in the domestic system and move the pressure regulator to the fast fill position you will pressurize the heating system, without ever moving your compressor connection. As the heavier fluid (water) is trying to settle in the lighter fluid (air), you are opening a bleeder higher in the system and working against the natural tendency of the heavier fluid (water) to settle out and you are forcing it up in the system. You should be working with gravity when the system is open, not against it, by opening the lowest valve in the system, generally the boiler drain valve.
> 
> You can disagree all you want, I'm just trying to save you some running up and down. I will also close the boiler valve and open the purge valves on the return side of the individual zones reversing the fluid flow, but all that is really doing is blowing that short piece of pipe and the valve right at that point.


If you have both systems pumped up and they both hold pressure together, there is no point. But even then there is generally a valve before the pressure reducer for that purpose.

Of course there are always special cases, but I'm talking about general practices for winterization.
Troubleshooting and getting a repair bid together can certainly get more involved.

For my first couple hundred, I went through all those extra steps too.


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## bigdaddy (Mar 3, 2013)

Ohnojim said:


> I do the domestic side first, while the heating system is gravity draining. Then allow the large compressor to run on the heating loop and boiler the entire time I am adding anti-freeze, placing stickers,cleaning toilets etc, usually at least 20 minutes. I always add a little anti-freeze to the boiler just to keep any small amount of water from causing damage.
> 
> I honestly believe a lot of guys just have a compressor for the camera and don't even plug it in.


You do realize how silly you look standing on your soap box preaching while posting pictures of you adding RV antifreeze to a boiler. That stuff may help with freeze protection but is not meant to endure the heat and will ruin a system in a few years.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I'm only adding a little bit to the bottom of the boiler*



bigdaddy said:


> You do realize how silly you look standing on your soap box preaching while posting pictures of you adding RV antifreeze to a boiler. That stuff may help with freeze protection but is not meant to endure the heat and will ruin a system in a few years.


for temporary freeze protection. once the system is filled it will be diluted. It is no more or less corrosive than water, and far less corrosive than air. I'll take my chances looking silly, as opposed to the freeze damage when the bottom of the boiler gets cracked from the residual water coalescing in the lower tubes. 

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 

Preaching!.........Can I get a ThankYa Jesus.


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

Have to agree with Jim, and any competent plumber will give it a thorough flush when restarting the system.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> I think it is the realtor being unknowledgable? Houses sell faster and for more when fixed. Higher sale price = higher commissions.



Also easier to sell a warm house when it's -20 outside............


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