# Sticky  An open Letter to the Newbie's



## Craigslist Hack

Maybe we should start a stickie on this subject?

Each year many of us veterans get hit with PM's from new guys asking the same questions we have responded to a million times in the open forum. The answers given are not what the poster wants to hear so he just keeps asking.

Here is some logic for you guys that should answer every question about every company because it all boils down to math.

Hud, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, VA, FHA, Whoever sets their standard pricing.

The national or servicer should take 20-25% of that.

The regional will then usually split what is left with the BOTG contractor somewhere in the 60/40 range give or take 10-15% depending on the regional.

So for example a 100.00 grass cut
-25% for National

 This Leaves $75.00 For the Regional to work with

The regional then takes 40% and gives the contractor 60%

Leaving BOTG making $45.00 on a grass cut.

If you are making only $15.00 or some other absurdly low amount most likely you are the sub of a sub of a sub. 

Are there bad companies out there? YES absolutely! 

Are there good companies out there? That's debatable because they are all subject to the same pricing and the same QC rules. Each and every company out there will send you back for a missing meter pic or some other such nonsense because these are the rules. Each one of them will call you one day out of the blue and say we now need these additional 5 pics on every property. The Cost Estimator will become more and more standard as time goes by. Until someone takes them to court and wins the cost estimators will be the norm. Regionals will get tired of doing the CE's and soon will pass that cost on to the $15.00 a yard guy. 

So many of you guys think we are trying to keep you out of the industry to line our own pockets with all this work. THe truth is we only tell what is going to happen to protect you.

Since the start of this forum and even back in the contractor talk days we have been asked about this company or that only to see a new thread a month or two down the road screaming "they suck they don't pay!" etc. etc. I often wonder to myself is the company or did the contractor not complete the work properly? The rules of this are such that if you don't do EVERYTHING the way the national wants it NOBODY gets paid. So why would a regional pay a guy who half way did a wint or missed pics on a property condition? 

If you are new you are going to make mistakes it's just that simple. You were not born with the knowledge of what makes a property in Conveyance Condition.

If you are having trouble finding work the only work you are going to stumble across is work no one else wants. LEARN from that! Ask yourself why they are calling YOU! Every market in the US has experienced contractors. Why would they be offering such a SWEET deal to a new guy with ZERO experience?

If you were going to hire a plumber would you call a school teacher? or a guy with ZERO experience? 

In closing USE commons sense people. If you can make that companies price sheet work then give it a go but be careful. The vets around here got in back when things were better they became established and most are diversifying and trying to get out.


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## NickT

Craigslist Hack said:


> Maybe we should start a stickie on this subject?
> 
> Each year many of us veterans get hit with PM's from new guys asking the same questions we have responded to a million times in the open forum. The answers given are not what the poster wants to hear so he just keeps asking.
> 
> Here is some logic for you guys that should answer every question about every company because it all boils down to math.
> 
> Hud, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, VA, FHA, Whoever sets their standard pricing.
> 
> The national or servicer should take 20-25% of that.
> 
> The regional will then usually split what is left with the BOTG contractor somewhere in the 60/40 range give or take 10-15% depending on the regional.
> 
> So for example a 100.00 grass cut
> -25% for National
> 
> This Leaves $75.00 For the Regional to work with
> 
> The regional then takes 40% and gives the contractor 60%
> 
> Leaving BOTG making $45.00 on a grass cut.
> 
> If you are making only $15.00 or some other absurdly low amount most likely you are the sub of a sub of a sub.
> 
> Are there bad companies out there? YES absolutely!
> 
> Are there good companies out there? That's debatable because they are all subject to the same pricing and the same QC rules. Each and every company out there will send you back for a missing meter pic or some other such nonsense because these are the rules. Each one of them will call you one day out of the blue and say we now need these additional 5 pics on every property. The Cost Estimator will become more and more standard as time goes by. Until someone takes them to court and wins the cost estimators will be the norm. Regionals will get tired of doing the CE's and soon will pass that cost on to the $15.00 a yard guy.
> 
> So many of you guys think we are trying to keep you out of the industry to line our own pockets with all this work. THe truth is we only tell what is going to happen to protect you.
> 
> Since the start of this forum and even back in the contractor talk days we have been asked about this company or that only to see a new thread a month or two down the road screaming "they suck they don't pay!" etc. etc. I often wonder to myself is the company or did the contractor not complete the work properly? The rules of this are such that if you don't do EVERYTHING the way the national wants it NOBODY gets paid. So why would a regional pay a guy who half way did a wint or missed pics on a property condition?
> 
> If you are new you are going to make mistakes it's just that simple. You were not born with the knowledge of what makes a property in Conveyance Condition.
> 
> If you are having trouble finding work the only work you are going to stumble across is work no one else wants. LEARN from that! Ask yourself why they are calling YOU! Every market in the US has experienced contractors. Why would they be offering such a SWEET deal to a new guy with ZERO experience?
> 
> If you were going to hire a plumber would you call a school teacher? or a guy with ZERO experience?
> 
> In closing USE commons sense people. If you can make that companies price sheet work then give it a go but be careful. The vets around here got in back when things were better they became established and most are diversifying and trying to get out.


I agree with 99% of what you are saying here, being on the other side of the coin. The only thing that I somewhat dispute is that most of the nationals/regionals do not even acknowledge the fact that there are professionals in this industry, TBH. I have worked for three different companies in this industry, and the largest one I worked for had that mentality. This is one of the biggest things to look out for when considering a regional/national, respect. Even if a national shows that respect, you need to make sure that it is not only from the rep you are speaking with. Ask any of the people on here that have worked with me previously! I (hope) that I have/had a great relationship with these contractors, I consider a lot of them friends I have never met, but that does not stop the higher ups at a company from screwing anyone over, whether purposefully, or not. This may not be the easiest thing to assess, but if you receive respect from your point of contact, and you are not getting what you really want/need, I would not consider that a good business relationship. I am definitely not saying that all of the nationals and regionals are not going to respect anyone, but I think that is one of the biggest problems that is overlooked in this industry. Hope I didn't repeat myself too much there, and hope everyone has a happy and healthy holiday!


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## Craigslist Hack

NickT said:


> I agree with 99% of what you are saying here, being on the other side of the coin. The only thing that I somewhat dispute is that most of the nationals/regionals do not even acknowledge the fact that there are professionals in this industry, TBH. I have worked for three different companies in this industry, and the largest one I worked for had that mentality. This is one of the biggest things to look out for when considering a regional/national, respect. Even if a national shows that respect, you need to make sure that it is not only from the rep you are speaking with. Ask any of the people on here that have worked with me previously! I (hope) that I have/had a great relationship with these contractors, I consider a lot of them friends I have never met, but that does not stop the higher ups at a company from screwing anyone over, whether purposefully, or not. This may not be the easiest thing to assess, but if you receive respect from your point of contact, and you are not getting what you really want/need, I would not consider that a good business relationship. I am definitely not saying that all of the nationals and regionals are not going to respect anyone, but I think that is one of the biggest problems that is overlooked in this industry. Hope I didn't repeat myself too much there, and hope everyone has a happy and healthy holiday!


I'm not sure if I ever worked with you at your previous company or not. I have a great relationship with a few people there and that has helped. They know when they call me what they are going to get. That doesn't change the fact that they are in business for themselves and I am replaceable. Look at the thread on here from the recruiter. Guys are all over him wanting work. It's sickening how thirsty some of these guys are. That thirst works against them in the end. They get themselves in trouble by doing work they shouldn't just to be working.

Working direct with the banks or even the asset manager is so so much easier than any national. No cost estimators, not nearly as many pictures, you just tell them what is going on at the property and send them a bid. They always do something maybe not your entire scope or every line item but they always do some of it. We lose the occasional bid to our competition and that's ok they have bills to pay just like we do.

I'm just not a fan of any National and Regionals don't even make sense to me. As you know there is only so much money that will be paid for a service. When that money is split 2, 3, sometimes even 4 times there isn't anything left for the guy in the field. This is what causes all the poor quality work in the field.


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## NickT

Craigslist Hack said:


> ...That doesn't change the fact that they are in business for themselves and I am replaceable. Look at the thread on here from the recruiter. Guys are all over him wanting work. It's sickening how thirsty some of these guys are. That thirst works against them in the end. They get themselves in trouble by doing work they shouldn't just to be working.
> 
> Working direct with the banks or even the asset manager is so so much easier than any national. No cost estimators, not nearly as many pictures, you just tell them what is going on at the property and send them a bid. They always do something maybe not your entire scope or every line item but they always do some of it. We lose the occasional bid to our competition and that's ok they have bills to pay just like we do.
> 
> I'm just not a fan of any National and Regionals don't even make sense to me. As you know there is only so much money that will be paid for a service. When that money is split 2, 3, sometimes even 4 times there isn't anything left for the guy in the field. This is what causes all the poor quality work in the field.


I absolutely agree. I am sure that most, if not everyone, on here knows I am a recruiter for a national company, but I completely understand where you are coming from. Even for me, I have areas where I need coverage, where I do not know the big players, and have nothing to go on other than what I read on here and other social media. Even if I were to know these great contractors, many of them are scared to work with a company with very little information out there (such as the one I work for), so it is extremely hard not to rely on social media and the evil forms of recruiting (CL and such). I do not blame a single one of them though, because they have every reason to doubt, there has been so much shadiness and despicable behavior in this industry it is, frankly, alarming. To sum it up, I completely agree that people need to do their research, and only take the opportunities that are right for them, but not all of the nationals are evil lol.


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## Craigslist Hack

NickT said:


> I absolutely agree. I am sure that most, if not everyone, on here knows I am a recruiter for a national company, but I completely understand where you are coming from. Even for me, I have areas where I need coverage, where I do not know the big players, and have nothing to go on other than what I read on here and other social media. Even if I were to know these great contractors, many of them are scared to work with a company with very little information out there (such as the one I work for), so it is extremely hard not to rely on social media and the evil forms of recruiting (CL and such). I do not blame a single one of them though, because they have every reason to doubt, there has been so much shadiness and despicable behavior in this industry it is, frankly, alarming. To sum it up, I completely agree that people need to do their research, and only take the opportunities that are right for them, but not all of the nationals are evil lol.


Based on what I know of your program it's unique and nothing like a Safeguard, MCS, Cyprexx, or VRM type of program.


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## GGC

I just signed on with MCS and from what they pay it is not adding up to them taking 25%. So Craigslist Hack let me ask you this. In your opinion Regionals should be taking 40%? I always thought they would take another 20-25% like the nationals.


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## Craigslist Hack

GGC said:


> I just signed on with MCS and from what they pay it is not adding up to them taking 25%. So Craigslist Hack let me ask you this. In your opinion Regionals should be taking 40%? I always thought they would take another 20-25% like the nationals.


Let me clarify that was not my opinion of what they "SHOULD" be taking it was more of a breakout of what the pricing typically reflects. If you look at what they usually pay for a service rate you find it's generally around 60% of what's left after the national takes their cut. It varies some but let's be honest 5-10% on a 30.00 service is not going to make or break a contractor. 

MCS's pricing doesn't make much sense at all does it?

Their QC is equally as confusing and inconsistent. If you signed with them you are a brave soul! 

I hope it goes better for you than it does for most.


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## GGC

Yeah, I am slowly starting to regret. They told me 25% off National and they even list the national pricing and then once you spend hours signing up you see they are not really clear on what they are paying. The line items they make themselves clear on are pretty low. 

If I ever have to sub out work I just take my 20-25%. For me my company does not deserve more then that. All we are doing essentially is pushing paper work. With pricing that MCS is giving it is impossible to sub out and feel right about what you are paying out.


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## bigdaddy

GGC said:


> If I ever have to sub out work I just take my 20-25%. For me my company does not deserve more then that. All we are doing essentially is pushing paper work. With pricing that MCS is giving it is impossible to sub out and feel right about what you are paying out.


See, that right there would make you just another part of the problem. You want to sub out work so you would take the ALREADY low pay and take ANOTHER 20-25% and pass on the PRE DETERMINED pay to someone else.

Before you start jumping all over me, let me just say that I am NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU! I said it "would" make you (or anyone else) part of the problem. You seem to agree that it would be impossible to do and not feel right about it, but you did bring up a good point and sooooo many other contractors and middlemen companies do this. 

That's the number one problem in this industry and as long as people continue to accept work at a price that is determined by someone else and that work gets chopped 2,3,4 times or more then the regionals and subs of regoinals will always be around. People need to just say no!

A little background on me and my company.

I have been around for a long time and started with preservation and maintenance work with the sole intention of working up to where I am at now which is a repair/rehab contractor and I ONLY do bank work. And I ONLY work direct. 

I started out many moons ago with Safeguard and MCS and that was when you could work direct with them, I think now a days you need to cover an entire state to get work? Back then there were zones and I only covered 1 and had all the work I could ever want. Once I got my feet wet I made sure EVERY broker/agent in my coverage area knew who I was and what I did. I walked away from Safeguard and MCS within 6 months.

OMG, I JUST REVEALED THE COVETED SECRET HOLY GRAIL FORMULA EVERY NEWBIE COMES TO THIS SITE FOR!!! 

SORRY EVERYONE ELSE, THE NEWBIES NOW KNOW THE SECRET AND ARE GOING TO TAKE ALL OF OUT WORK AWAY!!

PLEASE DON'T BE MAD AT ME!!

Of course that was sarcasm! But I am so sick and tired of hearing all the newbies cry that we won't give them the secret because we are soooo afraid of new competition. The fact is there is no secret! It takes hard work but what I posted above is all you need to know. Just like CL said, if they are contacting YOU, instead of ME, there's a problem. I just recently posted my story about a company called AIM to shed some light to the newbies, I suggest you read that if you are new to the game and some random company calls you to offer you work.

Earlier I said I contacted EVERY, AND I MEAN EVERY local agent. Why? 
If your work is professional and you are in an area that has some decent populated areas, you will get direct work! You also can't just talk to one person and come back and say" Nope, there is no direct work in my area"
It's there, you just haven't found it! Or, they already have one of us veterans who they are very loyal to! If that's the case just seek out NEW agents, they pop up every day and it's a perfect chance to work with a new agent who doesn't have a go to guy! 

Also, I work for many different brokers and they all have very different clients, some are large, some are small. I also work directly for Wells Fargo who is my main client and we have a 50 work order capacity. These aren't lawn cuts, these are average $25,000+ jobs. 

Back to the first paragraph and what got me started 
(sorry for the rant but since this is a newbie thread and sticky I wanted to get some good info in here)

I am a general contractor, I can't possibly do 50 jobs at a time by myself. I sub out 95% of the work and do the other 5% myself, no employees all 1099 contractors.

I don't get my prices from some client and just take my 20-25% cut and call it a day. I get BIDS from my contractors, then I charge the bank WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT! Sometimes I make 10% sometimes I make 200%!! And I fell just fine about it, do you know why?? Because that contractor GAVE ME HIS PRICE! That's what he needed to do the job and make a profit! I don't blow thru contractors, most have been with me for 6+ years and I have never have one turn down work or not answer my calls, why? Because they make damn good money and I treat them fair.

So please get that thinking out of you head that everyone must take 20% of the set price and pass it along. It's unfortunate that is how this industry works but real contractors set their own prices!

If everyone would turn down the middlemen the agents would get even more control and more work for everyone. But, that will NEVER happen. So your only real option is to go find direct work or DO SOMETHING ELSE! 

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, stop working for middlemen and then coming back to cry about being ripped off!!

RANT OVER


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## Craigslist Hack

bigdaddy said:


> See, that right there would make you just another part of the problem. You want to sub out work so you would take the ALREADY low pay and take ANOTHER 20-25% and pass on the PRE DETERMINED pay to someone else.
> 
> Before you start jumping all over me, let me just say that I am NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU! I said it "would" make you (or anyone else) part of the problem. You seem to agree that it would be impossible to do and not feel right about it, but you did bring up a good point and sooooo many other contractors and middlemen companies do this.
> 
> That's the number one problem in this industry and as long as people continue to accept work at a price that is determined by someone else and that work gets chopped 2,3,4 times or more then the regionals and subs of regoinals will always be around. People need to just say no!
> 
> A little background on me and my company.
> 
> I have been around for a long time and started with preservation and maintenance work with the sole intention of working up to where I am at now which is a repair/rehab contractor and I ONLY do bank work. And I ONLY work direct.
> 
> I started out many moons ago with Safeguard and MCS and that was when you could work direct with them, I think now a days you need to cover an entire state to get work? Back then there were zones and I only covered 1 and had all the work I could ever want. Once I got my feet wet I made sure EVERY broker/agent in my coverage area knew who I was and what I did. I walked away from Safeguard and MCS within 6 months.
> 
> OMG, I JUST REVEALED THE COVETED SECRET HOLY GRAIL FORMULA EVERY NEWBIE COMES TO THIS SITE FOR!!!
> 
> SORRY EVERYONE ELSE, THE NEWBIES NOW KNOW THE SECRET AND ARE GOING TO TAKE ALL OF OUT WORK AWAY!!
> 
> PLEASE DON'T BE MAD AT ME!!
> 
> Of course that was sarcasm! But I am so sick and tired of hearing all the newbies cry that we won't give them the secret because we are soooo afraid of new competition. The fact is there is no secret! It takes hard work but what I posted above is all you need to know. Just like CL said, if they are contacting YOU, instead of ME, there's a problem. I just recently posted my story about a company called AIM to shed some light to the newbies, I suggest you read that if you are new to the game and some random company calls you to offer you work.
> 
> Earlier I said I contacted EVERY, AND I MEAN EVERY local agent. Why?
> If your work is professional and you are in an area that has some decent populated areas, you will get direct work! You also can't just talk to one person and come back and say" Nope, there is no direct work in my area"
> It's there, you just haven't found it! Or, they already have one of us veterans who they are very loyal to! If that's the case just seek out NEW agents, they pop up every day and it's a perfect chance to work with a new agent who doesn't have a go to guy!
> 
> Also, I work for many different brokers and they all have very different clients, some are large, some are small. I also work directly for Wells Fargo who is my main client and we have a 50 work order capacity. These aren't lawn cuts, these are average $25,000+ jobs.
> 
> Back to the first paragraph and what got me started
> (sorry for the rant but since this is a newbie thread and sticky I wanted to get some good info in here)
> 
> I am a general contractor, I can't possibly do 50 jobs at a time by myself. I sub out 95% of the work and do the other 5% myself, no employees all 1099 contractors.
> 
> I don't get my prices from some client and just take my 20-25% cut and call it a day. I get BIDS from my contractors, then I charge the bank WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT! Sometimes I make 10% sometimes I make 200%!! And I fell just fine about it, do you know why?? Because that contractor GAVE ME HIS PRICE! That's what he needed to do the job and make a profit! I don't blow thru contractors, most have been with me for 6+ years and I have never have one turn down work or not answer my calls, why? Because they make damn good money and I treat them fair.
> 
> So please get that thinking out of you head that everyone must take 20% of the set price and pass it along. It's unfortunate that is how this industry works but real contractors set their own prices!
> 
> If everyone would turn down the middlemen the agents would get even more control and more work for everyone. But, that will NEVER happen. So your only real option is to go find direct work or DO SOMETHING ELSE!
> 
> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, stop working for middlemen and then coming back to cry about being ripped off!!
> 
> RANT OVER


It's like we were separated at birth! Great Post!


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## GGC

bigdaddy I highly appreciate the post. 

I have been doing work for 4 years now for regional companies and they just keep lowering the pricing and I actually get sent quite often to properties I can not even work on and most of them are trip charges. I decided to apply to some Nationals because I figure the pay would be better and I signed up with MCS recently and found their pricing is not to much better. They still have small zones in the state. I do most work myself and have several other crews, but figure I would contract out if I get to busy instead of buying more equipment and trucks. I am probably going to drop MCS and take your advice on contacting Agents directly.

Thank you for your input and I always appreciate others advice on how to be successful.


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## NCnewbie

GGC said:


> I just signed on with MCS and from what they pay it is not adding up to them taking 25%. So Craigslist Hack let me ask you this. In your opinion Regionals should be taking 40%? I always thought they would take another 20-25% like the nationals.


I've worked for one company that took 40% after the national and another that only takes 20%. Obviously I'm happier with the 20% but the trade off was the higher percentage meant I only had to upload pics and make a few notes. Didn't have to flag them or process much. My office time was very low. I dropped them when things they missed in my notes started coming back on me and trying to hold me liable. 

You have to learn the allowable pricing and what their discount is giving you, or in other words what is your work paying them to do for you. The company that is taking 20% does a much better qc job on my work and is far more accessible than the previous company, even though I spend more time processing I'm happier than ever with who I'm with and I'm turning out much better work because of it. It takes getting burned a few times to appreciate a good company when you find it.


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## david

*Hi*

Listen to the veterans, it's not a business i would just want to be starting in,after 7 years im really considering leaving.when works slows down these companies dont care if you have a family to feed or bills to pay,they are merely looking out for theirselves to stay in business, and only need you when available.
If you can find other work believe me you will be 100% better off


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## Zuse

bigdaddy said:


> See, that right there would make you just another part of the problem. You want to sub out work so you would take the ALREADY low pay and take ANOTHER 20-25% and pass on the PRE DETERMINED pay to someone else.
> 
> Before you start jumping all over me, let me just say that I am NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU! I said it "would" make you (or anyone else) part of the problem. You seem to agree that it would be impossible to do and not feel right about it, but you did bring up a good point and sooooo many other contractors and middlemen companies do this.
> 
> That's the number one problem in this industry and as long as people continue to accept work at a price that is determined by someone else and that work gets chopped 2,3,4 times or more then the regionals and subs of regoinals will always be around. People need to just say no!
> 
> A little background on me and my company.
> 
> I have been around for a long time and started with preservation and maintenance work with the sole intention of working up to where I am at now which is a repair/rehab contractor and I ONLY do bank work. And I ONLY work direct.
> 
> I started out many moons ago with Safeguard and MCS and that was when you could work direct with them, I think now a days you need to cover an entire state to get work? Back then there were zones and I only covered 1 and had all the work I could ever want. Once I got my feet wet I made sure EVERY broker/agent in my coverage area knew who I was and what I did. I walked away from Safeguard and MCS within 6 months.
> 
> OMG, I JUST REVEALED THE COVETED SECRET HOLY GRAIL FORMULA EVERY NEWBIE COMES TO THIS SITE FOR!!!
> 
> SORRY EVERYONE ELSE, THE NEWBIES NOW KNOW THE SECRET AND ARE GOING TO TAKE ALL OF OUT WORK AWAY!!
> 
> PLEASE DON'T BE MAD AT ME!!
> 
> Of course that was sarcasm! But I am so sick and tired of hearing all the newbies cry that we won't give them the secret because we are soooo afraid of new competition. The fact is there is no secret! It takes hard work but what I posted above is all you need to know. Just like CL said, if they are contacting YOU, instead of ME, there's a problem. I just recently posted my story about a company called AIM to shed some light to the newbies, I suggest you read that if you are new to the game and some random company calls you to offer you work.
> 
> Earlier I said I contacted EVERY, AND I MEAN EVERY local agent. Why?
> If your work is professional and you are in an area that has some decent populated areas, you will get direct work! You also can't just talk to one person and come back and say" Nope, there is no direct work in my area"
> It's there, you just haven't found it! Or, they already have one of us veterans who they are very loyal to! If that's the case just seek out NEW agents, they pop up every day and it's a perfect chance to work with a new agent who doesn't have a go to guy!
> 
> Also, I work for many different brokers and they all have very different clients, some are large, some are small. I also work directly for Wells Fargo who is my main client and we have a 50 work order capacity. These aren't lawn cuts, these are average $25,000+ jobs.
> 
> Back to the first paragraph and what got me started
> (sorry for the rant but since this is a newbie thread and sticky I wanted to get some good info in here)
> 
> I am a general contractor, I can't possibly do 50 jobs at a time by myself. I sub out 95% of the work and do the other 5% myself, no employees all 1099 contractors.
> 
> I don't get my prices from some client and just take my 20-25% cut and call it a day. I get BIDS from my contractors, then I charge the bank WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT! Sometimes I make 10% sometimes I make 200%!! And I fell just fine about it, do you know why?? Because that contractor GAVE ME HIS PRICE! That's what he needed to do the job and make a profit! I don't blow thru contractors, most have been with me for 6+ years and I have never have one turn down work or not answer my calls, why? Because they make damn good money and I treat them fair.
> 
> So please get that thinking out of you head that everyone must take 20% of the set price and pass it along. It's unfortunate that is how this industry works but real contractors set their own prices!
> 
> If everyone would turn down the middlemen the agents would get even more control and more work for everyone. But, that will NEVER happen. So your only real option is to go find direct work or DO SOMETHING ELSE!
> 
> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, stop working for middlemen and then coming back to cry about being ripped off!!
> 
> RANT OVER


Ah, Could i get that rant NOTARIZED? please. LoL, I like it. Lets go get a cup of java sometime, im buying.:vs_coffee:

Quote: 
I JUST REVEALED THE COVETED SECRET HOLY GRAIL..Funny stuff there buddy.


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## JoeInPI

This is a great thread. When someone registers on PT, this should show up as the landing page, and be unable to click off of for 4-6 days... lol!


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## allure9121

So what companies are good to work for 



only joking

happy holidays to all


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## Preservation For A Cause

I appreciate your opinion . I am a local contractor here in Cleveland Ohio I have been in this business for three years now and really enjoy the work and the opportunity to put people to work . I have a few questions to ask ; 

1) Have you or anybody you known ever factored an invoice 

2) Have you heard of any company that provides training in the property preservation industry(I am thinking about applying for government funding to put one together aimed towards providing work for at risk youth and single moms)


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## Preservation For A Cause

*Free Labor*

Has anybody ever thought about using the work first program from the department of labor ? Its a program designed to help individuals that are receiving government assistance find work. Basically the program gives companies free labor in exchange for providing work experience to individuals on government assistance kinda like a job shadowing type of program. Has anybody heard of or used such a program. I have thought about using these types of recipients on simple labor jobs like trash outs . Any thoughts from the vets on the board?


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## Preservation For A Cause

I agree with what you stated. I feel that we are paying regional s basically to process work orders. I have always had the mentality of working with regional only because of the fact that my office time is minimum and you really cant be in the field and update the work orders and have a life .


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## GTX63

Training for preservation work? If one doesn't have the "trade skills" I'd suggest an apprenticeship. Sounds noble if you can manage it.
Word of mouth is how we hire. When my own guys refer help it tends to lend credibility to the new guy, or gal. They know who they are getting.
I trained my kids and put them on jobs. When my guys have teens ready to work and earn I put them on a job.
Just from personal experience, I have a much higher success rate with this formula that I would hiring from Hope Depot, Labor Ready, or gov assistance programs. I'm in rural areas multi state.


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## JoeInPI

GTX63 said:


> I trained my kids and put them on jobs.


This is true- probably the only way to make money now, since you can pay with a bag of Skittles and a Mountain Dew. Two Dew's if it's a long day, paid in advance to maintain pace of work... They don't even whine about stupid rules like closed toe shoes.


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## GTX63

Lol.

More like cigarettes and beer.
Without giving them specifics, I ask them if they want paid by the hour or by the job. It's a little insight into their potential.

Cue pianos and violins. 
I worked as a teen detasseling corn and walking bean rows. Sunup to sundown.
No different that a chain gang other than I hadn't committed any crime.
Took a month for the first two week paycheck. $186.
I used to be proud of that story; these days I'm just a sucker.


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## Craigslist Hack

GTX63 said:


> Lol.
> 
> More like cigarettes and beer.
> Without giving them specifics, I ask them if they want paid by the hour or by the job. It's a little insight into their potential.
> 
> Cue pianos and violins.
> I worked as a teen detasseling corn and walking bean rows. Sunup to sundown.
> No different that a chain gang other than I hadn't committed any crime.
> Took a month for the first two week paycheck. $186.
> I used to be proud of that story; these days I'm just a sucker.


I detassled corn for 4 years in the Villa Grove, Tuscola, IL area. We walked beans every summer and baled hay twice a year. I got a penny a bale for the square bales and you never saw a kid so happy the year grandpa got a round baler!:biggrin:


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## GTX63

Craigslist Hack said:


> I got a penny a bale for the square bales and you never saw a kid so happy the year grandpa got a round baler!:biggrin:



A penny a bale.....your kids must hate your guts.


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## JoeInPI

What's so hard about that? I mean- it's no different than $10 lawn cuts. If madxtreme & melmatrix can do it, why can't you guys get it done? Get more efficient! Y'all will pass on $10 cuts, but you tassled corn and walked beanrows for such low rates? No wonder you're in preservation. Ha ha! J/K!!!! :biggrin:


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## Craigslist Hack

JoeInPI said:


> What's so hard about that? I mean- it's no different than $10 lawn cuts. If madxtreme & melmatrix can do it, why can't you guys get it done? Get more efficient! Y'all will pass on $10 cuts, but you tassled corn and walked beanrows for such low rates? No wonder you're in preservation. Ha ha! J/K!!!! :biggrin:


The tassel is on the other end!.......... You city folks crack me up!

You may have a point we could be conditioned to low wages and poor working conditions. When I detassled there were plenty of cute girls. That is what kept me coming back. No cute girls on my preservation routes.


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## safeguard dropout

Detasseling....2-3 weeks of work for about $600 bucks. I was 15 and thought that check was going to last forever. Drank my first beer on a detasseling job...Good experience. I don't recall the girls being all that pretty though. The ones on my crew were all pretty well corn fed.


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## JoeInPI

Wait- do you mean that the country girls do NOT all look like the girls on those farmersonly.com TV ads?












One thing though- why did they put the hottest girls in the back?!



...and that's as close to a tassel I can get- I have bad pollen allergies lol


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## GTX63

So this thread can still say it is somewhat on topic, the point is that one shouldn't be learning the lessons at 40 that were being taught when they were 16.


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## Craigslist Hack

GTX63 said:


> So this thread can still say it is somewhat on topic, the point is that one shouldn't be learning the lessons at 40 that were being taught when they were 16.



When I was 15 I wanted a Whitesnake cassette and an older cousin to buy me beer. My needs were pretty simple. 

Even if your needs are simple there is almost no reason to pursue preservation. The money is low and slow. The hours long and filled with more and more procedural BS every single day. Then you have charge backs and liabilities. 

Right now we are having to spell out our payment terms with realtors and asset managers on our non national work. That money is starting to move slower and the pic requirements are going up.


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## JoeInPI

Government, government, government. Regulate regulate regulate. Work at HUD/FNMA/FMAC/VA/USDA? Create more procedures so you fell like you're really helping. More paperwork, more paperwork, more paperwork. Involve more people. Suck up more money. Less for the people that do actual work.

Not a sustainable business model unless you work for the government.





Craigslist Hack said:


> When I was 15 I wanted a Whitesnake cassette and an older cousin to buy me beer. My needs were pretty simple...



I remember those days... Similar, but I taped Whitesnake singles off the radio onto cassette, and taped the Whitesnake video (well, mostly Tawny Kitaen lol) off MTV with the VCR. I was 13/14 when it was popular, so that pretty much explains that. lol!










:biggrin:


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## deputy138

NickT said:


> I absolutely agree. I am sure that most, if not everyone, on here knows I am a recruiter for a national company, but I completely understand where you are coming from. Even for me, I have areas where I need coverage, where I do not know the big players, and have nothing to go on other than what I read on here and other social media. Even if I were to know these great contractors, many of them are scared to work with a company with very little information out there (such as the one I work for), so it is extremely hard not to rely on social media and the evil forms of recruiting (CL and such). I do not blame a single one of them though, because they have every reason to doubt, there has been so much shadiness and despicable behavior in this industry it is, frankly, alarming. To sum it up, I completely agree that people need to do their research, and only take the opportunities that are right for them, but not all of the nationals are evil lol.


If you need any Subs in Eastern Ky or Southwest Va. Please feel free to contact me, Thanks


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## Craigslist Hack

*This thread is a little off track.*

I would like to stay on topic here if we can. I know this thread may seem like a Newbie rant but it's really more of a newbie warning. 

The issues discussed here are not things that may happen. These things WILL happen. If not to you then to someone you know. 

A very wise veteran from this very board shared a great philosophy with me. There is no magic to it simply build in the cost. Expect the no pays and chargebacks and look at it as the cost of doing business. 

Does that mean go work for Cyprexx or SG? No it certainly does not. It means when you look at a price sheet and project you profits, you must also figure in at least a 10-15% loss. We use 12% as a factor for our projections and some years it's low others it's high. Remember your company is parasitic to the National, which is Parasitic to the bank which is parasitic to the FED. When the companies higher on the food chain need profits every company dependent upon them will suffer to at least some degree. Mr. Reagan called this trickle down economics sadly the profits do not seem to trickle down.


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> .....sadly the profits do not seem to trickle down.


Good point. On the flip side, the losses WILL trickle down and eventually come out of your pocket. 

When a company you are doing business with suddenly comes out with new and ridiculous requirements with no extra compensation, it's a good sign they are in financial trouble and looking for easy charge backs to make up their losses.

Don't play that game...you will lose.


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## GeorgeKarash

This makes it very important to ask for a contractor license. In that way, at least, we can be sure that the guy knows.


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## Craigslist Hack

GeorgeKarash said:


> This makes it very important to ask for a contractor license. In that way, at least, we can be sure that the guy knows.


Almost NONE of the people operating in my area have a contractor's license and only 1 county even requires it. 

The clients need to address it by hiring better vendors. Instead they just require more pictures.


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## bigmike

*New In Town*

I want to know who are the best companies to sign-up with for cleanout / preservation. I'd also like to know if the days of calling up a realtor are over. I hear they use to and sometimes still do disburse the cleanout work for REO PROPERTIES.


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## Craigslist Hack

bigmike said:


> I want to know who are the best companies to sign-up with for cleanout / preservation. I'd also like to know if the days of calling up a realtor are over. I hear they use to and sometimes still do disburse the cleanout work for REO PROPERTIES.


Calling them up is probably not going to work. You need an actual marketing plan and strategy.

NONE of the companies are good to work for. That means absolutely zero. Some are just worse than others.


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## Craigslist Hack

getsnowremoval said:


> Thank you for sharing this. I needed this.



Why would you spam your site here? You are wasting your time and our patience.


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## Craigslist Hack

With some of the stories around here lately I think this thread is especially relevant.


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## HappyGrass

Ha:vs_lol:


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## Craigslist Hack

So how much should they pay you? I ask this question because so many people are posting how they work for XYZ regional, or they will work for a regional but they can't for THOSE prices.

Here is the simple math for the average Newbie. 

Let's say the National pays 75.00 for a wint. Low you say? HUD pays 100.00 minus the 25% the National takes and you have 75.00.

Now XYZ regional takes 45% of the 75.00 that leaves BOTG with roughly 41.00 now if the national takes more or the regional takes more the numbers will vary.

Here is the thing many of you seem to want to work for a regional or through someone but you expect to be paid more than would be worth it for them. I agree that working for them doesn't work for you but you still must consider what's in it for them? 

I wouldn't process your work, bid all the issues, and accept the liability for less than 40%. Who would?

What I'm trying to show here is mathematically it doesn't work. You will never be happy and you will never make good money. It's not a bridge to get you by until the next big thing comes along. It's a bridge to nowhere.


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## Newbie

Well, this reply is going to piss some people off, but from my perspective and those who work for Regionals, know it to be 100% true.


Those of us who work for Regionals are your employee's that got tired of watching the You, the Owner, make all that money off of us and now want 1/2 of your cut, and not the measly $10 - $15 you paid us to do all the field work. 

Most of you now are saying "what All?". Well, we see your bills paid and new equipment coming in while we work check to check.

Working for the Regionals is Exactly like working for most of you except we get 1/2 the cut. We do not need to label photos. We do not need to bid every single item or get screwed for it later. We do not even have to worry about chargebacks later down the line. 99% of all the aggravation you guys need to worry about we don't. The Regional (You) have those issues, not us. 

If you really think about it, YOU are the Regional for your covered areas and those under you are your sub-contractors you are paying to do said jobs. You all complain about the Regionals and YOU ARE THE REGIONALS.


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## safeguard dropout

You know, even when I worked for Safeguard, I didn't care if they were getting 60-600-6,000 dollars for a grass cut, or whatever job. It does not matter. If I want what they are getting then I need to do what they are doing to get it....and I don't want to. What right do I have to their money? It became an issue when they thought they had a right to MY money.

At the end of the day all that matters is if you did work for a profitable number.

What is frustrating is the lack of understanding out there between gross and net.


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## Craigslist Hack

Newbie said:


> Well, this reply is going to piss some people off, but from my perspective and those who work for Regionals, know it to be 100% true.
> 
> 
> Those of us who work for Regionals are your employee's that got tired of watching the You, the Owner, make all that money off of us and now want 1/2 of your cut, and not the measly $10 - $15 you paid us to do all the field work.
> 
> Most of you now are saying "what All?". Well, we see your bills paid and new equipment coming in while we work check to check.
> 
> Working for the Regionals is Exactly like working for most of you except we get 1/2 the cut. We do not need to label photos. We do not need to bid every single item or get screwed for it later. We do not even have to worry about chargebacks later down the line. 99% of all the aggravation you guys need to worry about we don't. The Regional (You) have those issues, not us.
> 
> If you really think about it, YOU are the Regional for your covered areas and those under you are your sub-contractors you are paying to do said jobs. You all complain about the Regionals and YOU ARE THE REGIONALS.


In many cases this is true. Look at the math I posted above. If I work for a company that pays low or even marginally then split it with a guy it becomes a very low wage. This is why I have always said HUD pricing is generally ok before 20 hands get in the pie. 

Now I have to ask how much do you pay the guys that work for you? 

You will notice there is a cycle or an evolution in business. One day you are happy to get the job sweeping the warehouse for minimum wage then one day you are angry you have to answer 20 emails a day for 6 figures. It's all relevant.


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## Newbie

Well, it all works out for me. I'm a guy that doesn't play well with others, as I have "social" issues. I work alone and do what I can do at my own pace. 

I've had 100's of jobs and they all sucked for me till I applied to this one add for a general laborer and learned this business, then after 1 year left him for a regional. Maybe 1 out of every 100 houses I need to actually speak with another human. Most other interactions are texting or emails.


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## Craigslist Hack

Newbie said:


> Well, it all works out for me. I'm a guy that doesn't play well with others, as I have "social" issues. I work alone and do what I can do at my own pace.
> 
> I've had 100's of jobs and they all sucked for me till I applied to this one add for a general laborer and learned this business, then after 1 year left him for a regional. Maybe 1 out of every 100 houses I need to actually speak with another human. Most other interactions are texting or emails.


Good for you man! I can relate. I did preservation work today. There is something nice about not having a client over your shoulder.


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## Craigslist Hack

The best thing you can do for profit is learn the word NO. Politely tell them NO. Price things where you make money and say no to anything less.:vs_no_no_no:


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> The best thing you can do for profit is learn the word NO. Politely tell them NO. Price things where you make money and say no to anything less.:vs_no_no_no:


Got a call last week from a company I hope to get a lot of work from in the future. They just don't have the work load right now. He asked if I could do a couple simple inspections for $15 each. I've never done the inspection thing, how hard can it be? I was driving right by the properties anyway so I said yes. I did the first one but was running behind on my other work. I sent over the pics and forms, he asked when I would have the second inspection done.

I'm not going to do it. Please reassign.
How bout 30 for the inspection?
No, I'm not doing it.
I can go 50 on the inspection but that's it.
No.
50 for trip charge and 50 in the inspection?
NO.
100 trip charge and 50 inspection?
I think we have a deal.:vs_smile:

I said yes and made 15

I said no and made 150

CLH you are correct. NO is a profitable word. 

Mmm...maybe I tell my wife no.:wink:


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## PropPresPro

safeguard dropout said:


> Mmm...maybe I tell my wife no.:wink:


Good luck with that. . .(I'd rather work with SG than try that!)


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## G 3

PropPresPro said:


> Good luck with that. . .(I'd rather work with SG than try that!)


I do have a problem with Safeguard accepting a job, then declining it without a valid reason. If his whole reason was to get their business, then push them into a higher pay grade through "No'genotiation", then that is bad business for everyone involved.

If he accepted the work, found himself overwhelmed, a proper business man would work with the company to get it done in the fastest manner possible.

Newbies take note... this tactic, if done purposely, will backfire faster than an over-fueled dragster, and will cost you business.


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## safeguard dropout

G 3 said:


> I do have a problem with Safeguard accepting a job, then declining it without a valid reason. If his whole reason was to get their business, then push them into a higher pay grade through "No'genotiation", then that is bad business for everyone involved.


Yep I agree. I was trying to avoid all the details and writing a book on here, but I have left out some vital information.

I received the call from X national when I was on the road and about to drive by the properties. He asked if I could do a couple "simple inspections that needed just a few photos and fill out a quick form and it shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes." I said email me the work orders. 

The email arrived about the same time I arrived at the property. These were not simple inspections. They were ICC inspections. They were requesting 150-200 pics and there were 2 forms to fill out, not just one. There was no way it could have been completed correctly in 10-15 min.
The entire conversation was a lie just to get me there. I wanted to keep my word so I did the first inspection, then realized I don't want to work for this company in the future anyway if this is how they do business. I didn't feel like a spittin match, just wanted to be done with them, so when he asked
about the second inspection, I just said no. 

I just found it interesting how the price went from 15 to 150 by saying no. I accepted at 150 trying to recoup losses for the first one. I should have run him up 300! On a side note, the 165 is actually on their "in process for payment" for April. We'll see.....

Will I do business with this company in the future? I don't know.....definitely not doing $15 inspections and not doing ANYTHING for that state rep.


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## MPSFIRM

safeguard dropout said:


> Yep I agree. I was trying to avoid all the details and writing a book on here, but I have left out some vital information.
> 
> I received the call from X national when I was on the road and about to drive by the properties. He asked if I could do a couple "simple inspections that needed just a few photos and fill out a quick form and it shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes." I said email me the work orders.
> 
> The email arrived about the same time I arrived at the property. These were not simple inspections. They were ICC inspections. They were requesting 150-200 pics and there were 2 forms to fill out, not just one. There was no way it could have been completed correctly in 10-15 min.
> The entire conversation was a lie just to get me there. I wanted to keep my word so I did the first inspection, then realized I don't want to work for this company in the future anyway if this is how they do business. I didn't feel like a spittin match, just wanted to be done with them, so when he asked
> about the second inspection, I just said no.
> 
> I just found it interesting how the price went from 15 to 150 by saying no. I accepted at 150 trying to recoup losses for the first one. I should have run him up 300! On a side note, the 165 is actually on their "in process for payment" for April. We'll see.....
> 
> Will I do business with this company in the future? I don't know.....definitely not doing $15 inspections and not doing ANYTHING for that state rep.



There are always certain nationals who will call you, say what they want to get you to the property just to find out it was a bunch of BS. When that happens I always call from site and make it known that we will get it done, but not at that price. If they cannot meet me on pricing I just wont do it. I have gotten to a point where we do not NEED the extra headaches and 9 out of 10 times the client needs us more than we need them. If they have to lie to get me out to a property they obviously had no one else to do the stuff.

I also hate how you do a favor for them once and they expect you to keep doing it. Again, I just say no now. These nationals get too comfortable and forget we are out there making THEM money while they push papers. :vs_no_no_no:


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## Craigslist Hack

I took a break from this place because my head was going to explode. I check back in and.......???


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## safeguard dropout

Well it's good to have you back...... but you'd better pop some asprin.


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## ClallamPP

JoeInPI said:


> This is a great thread. When someone registers on PT, this should show up as the landing page, and be unable to click off of for 4-6 days... lol!


it happened... my first day here, first post.
Check back here in a week.


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## RDHS_Kat

Craigslist Hack said:


> I'm just not a fan of any National and Regionals don't even make sense to me. As you know there is only so much money that will be paid for a service. When that money is split 2, 3, sometimes even 4 times there isn't anything left for the guy in the field. This is what causes all the poor quality work in the field.


Haven't introduced myself yet but I will when I figure out where that goes. In the process of reading all the info on here, or searching before I ask to see if any questions I come up with are already answered. 

Wanted to add to this above. We are new but have seen some horrible examples of work done. Example today at a new property, found green Sprite 2 liter bottle caps placed as hot water heater and hot and cold water caps for washer and dryer. Example of what you get when its split up. I'm not perfect but that's ridiculous.


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## Craigslist Hack

Every day I see new posts asking about some new regional or I receive a private message asking about some company. I have read the site and knownthe information is here so why can no one comprehend?


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## C & S Construction

Just wondering, but we are in Kentucky not the big citys of the U.S.. How do you get your foot in the door in smaller counties, who do you contact to go directly? Who in the banks, real estate agents etc? We have been in this a year, we have Asons, United and ZVN we love them, Others have burnt us like NFS, P.K. Management and one who ole lord thought 12 am text was appropriate on what time we are starting the next morning but as you said its a learning process. We are a construction company as well traveled from Kentucky to PA for a Carrington House job so not afraid of the travel or work. We just know clean outs and repairs is where the money is and the rest we figured was the have to do to get the repair jobs. Just dont know who to talk to to go directly at banks etc we can hardly get past the receptionist :/ Wells Fargo I have tried them but they seems confused when I ask them about being a vendor lord I have done several of their houses already just thro a percentage sucking company :/


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## Sheenaf88

*Just a simple question*

How do i get in contact with AMS?


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## Craigslist Hack

Sheenaf88 said:


> How do i get in contact with AMS?


AMS is out of business.


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## Craigslist Hack

C & S Construction said:


> Just wondering, but we are in Kentucky not the big citys of the U.S.. How do you get your foot in the door in smaller counties, who do you contact to go directly? Who in the banks, real estate agents etc? We have been in this a year, we have Asons, United and ZVN we love them, Others have burnt us like NFS, P.K. Management and one who ole lord thought 12 am text was appropriate on what time we are starting the next morning but as you said its a learning process. We are a construction company as well traveled from Kentucky to PA for a Carrington House job so not afraid of the travel or work. We just know clean outs and repairs is where the money is and the rest we figured was the have to do to get the repair jobs. Just dont know who to talk to to go directly at banks etc we can hardly get past the receptionist :/ Wells Fargo I have tried them but they seems confused when I ask them about being a vendor lord I have done several of their houses already just thro a percentage sucking company :/


Every company you named is a regional which means you are working for pennies on the dollar. 

When you went to PA to work did you call your insurance company and add coverage to work in PA? Are you licensed to work in PA? Did you ask yourself why they couldn't find someone local in PA? Why did they have to import some guy from the backwoods of Kentucky? Who pulled the permit so you could work?


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## futaba951

I've been doing this for over 20 years. The money gets worse with every passing year. If you want to make a lot of money; more than just a living; this is not the line of work you want to be in. Fortunately, my house is paid off, I've learned how to shave unnecessary costs and found the best prices on insurance. I don't spend near as much money to do business as I did in the beginning. It's a fickle business. Don't get in over your head starting out. It'll eat you alive. And JFTR, Trump was not the only one cheering on a houseing crash. I'm so ready for another one.


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## Maryjanebehave

excellent rant, and incredibly tasty food for thought...thanks a bunch!


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## Ipaybytheweight

Newbie HERE..!


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## Ipaybytheweight

futaba951 ....I've learned how to shave unnecessary costs and found the best prices on insurance", pls share that...!, my kreepy INS, just keep adding up my premium,,, and no fault here


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