# Middleman paying field workers NOTHING!!! Doing Crappy work



## Guest

We have been contacted by a number of companies trying to sub work to us at ridiculous prices. I don't mind working for other companies but I am not doing a wint for $20.00 or cutting the lawn for $15.00.

I don't understand why a national would give work in Illinois to a guy in Atlanta, or Florida? All they do is run adds on Craigslist and hire some Jackleg that can't even board a window properly. 

Does any one have any insight into how to make the Nationals aware of what these middlemen are doing so honest companies can at least work for the national?


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## mtmtnman

Doberman Prop said:


> We have been contacted by a number of companies trying to sub work to us at ridiculous prices. I don't mind working for other companies but I am not doing a wint for $20.00 or cutting the lawn for $15.00.
> 
> I don't understand why a national would give work in Illinois to a guy in Atlanta, or Florida? All they do is run adds on Craigslist and hire some Jackleg that can't even board a window properly.
> 
> Does any one have any insight into how to make the Nationals aware of what these middlemen are doing so honest companies can at least work for the national?




Three words for you. THEY DON'T CARE! There are WAY to many broke people that will work for nothing and SOME, not ALL of the regionals have figured this out. They pocket more $$$ than the contractor. I have a friend in the Tampa area who owns a lawncare business. He routinely gets calls wanting him to do REPO lawncuts for $10 to $15. The Nationals bill at least $80 so if they take 25% there is $60 left on the table so the regional is pocketing $45 and giving the contractor $15 but as long as there is people that are willing (broke) to do these cuts for $15 it will not change.


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## Guest

I guess they need gardeners down in Georgia and Bama. :thumbup:


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## Guest

It still amazes me, the whole p and p thing is ridiculous.


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## mtmtnman

ohiohomedoctor said:


> It still amazes me, the whole p and p thing is ridiculous.


It's construction wide nowdays. Contractors here are bidding jobs just to cover their notes. No margin at all. Why bother if you can't turn a profit? All your doing is wearing out your equipment and prolonging the pain. Liquidate and cut your losses........


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> It still amazes me, the whole p and p thing is ridiculous.


I agree. I don't understand it.

The P&P thread is nothing more than some 2000+ posts all complaining and others agreeing about the whole industry.


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## Guest

BamBamm5144 said:


> I agree. I don't understand it.
> 
> The P&P thread is nothing more than some 2000+ posts all complaining and others agreeing about the whole industry.


:crying: :sad:


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## mtmtnman

BamBam, Ohiodoc, Consider yourself lucky if you have work. As i posted above, the whole construction industry has went to hell. I was a foreman for a small excavating company in 2008 when everything started to fall apart. P&P was my only option as there was absolutely no work unless i wanted to go to the oilfields in Alaska or Eastern Montana. I had enough time away from my family the year i worked in Mississippi and Louisiana after Katrina and i WON'T do that ever again. i missed a year of my kids growing up and i'll NEVER get that back. 

I have done alright in this business and have fed my family for the last 3.5 years and have even been able to buy a bunch of equipment from broke people at rock bottom prices. The problem for me isn't that i am not making money because i am, The problem is i see how much is left on the table and the disgusting greed of the nationals in this business. By far my best margins are with local brokers and banks but i have a few subs that work for me and i feel responsible to keep them afloat, thus i take on work from the greedy nationals. 

If i was a jackass i could just tell my subs "tough luck" and just work for the locals on my own but having dependable subs is great when i get a very large local job which i need extra help on. I would suspect my case is similar to MANY of the regulars who frequent the P&P forum. We also try and educate the newbies so they don't take it in the shorts because if they agree to work cheap, it lowers the price for the rest of us who are depending on this business until the economy turns around which is going to be a LONG way down the road IMHO!!!


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> BamBam, Ohiodoc, Consider yourself lucky if you have work. As i posted above, the whole construction industry has went to hell. I was a foreman for a small excavating company in 2008 when everything started to fall apart. P&P was my only option as there was absolutely no work unless i wanted to go to the oilfields in Alaska or Eastern Montana. I had enough time away from my family the year i worked in Mississippi and Louisiana after Katrina and i WON'T do that ever again. i missed a year of my kids growing up and i'll NEVER get that back.
> 
> I have done alright in this business and have fed my family for the last 3.5 years and have even been able to buy a bunch of equipment from broke people at rock bottom prices. The problem for me isn't that i am not making money because i am, The problem is i see how much is left on the table and the disgusting greed of the nationals in this business. By far my best margins are with local brokers and banks but i have a few subs that work for me and i feel responsible to keep them afloat, thus i take on work from the greedy nationals.
> 
> If i was a jackass i could just tell my subs "tough luck" and just work for the locals on my own but having dependable subs is great when i get a very large local job which i need extra help on. I would suspect my case is similar to MANY of the regulars who frequent the P&P forum. We also try and educate the newbies so they don't take it in the shorts because if they agree to work cheap, it lowers the price for the rest of us who are depending on this business until the economy turns around which is going to be a LONG way down the road IMHO!!!


I don't know how much I believe that the whole construction industry went to hell. When I look around my area, I see a lot of legitimate companies still working, some are said to be having record years. My supplier told me they are having a pretty good year.

We all deal with the same price issues you do, I just think the difference is that the PP business has a low level of entry capital needed (no offense).

For example with pricing, I bid on two of the exact same roofs. Same price for both, one signed and one read me the riot act.

Oh yeah, YOU AREN'T responsible for your subs. That might make it easier for you.


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## Guest

I remember when things started going flat back in '89. It stayed that way for about 10 years. 
9.11.01 happened and Americans everywhere started helping each other again. All was good, new construction and remodels were strong. 
Then greedy corporate ceos and bankers raided the public funds and retirement accounts until 2008 when the money was all gone. 
Geo W. tucked tail to hide out with his neuvo riche buddies. Leaving John Q. and his family to fend for themselves. 
BO came to the rescue of his campaign supporters and emptied the federal coffers in the form of banker bailouts. 
Not surprising that some people are looking for ways to extort the overflowing labor pool.


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## thanohano44

skyhook said:


> I remember when things started going flat back in '89. It stayed that way for about 10 years.
> 9.11.01 happened and Americans everywhere started helping each other again. All was good, new construction and remodels were strong.
> Then greedy corporate ceos and bankers raided the public funds and retirement accounts until 2008 when the money was all gone.
> Geo W. tucked tail to hide out with his neuvo riche buddies. Leaving John Q. and his family to fend for themselves.
> BO came to the rescue of his campaign supporters and emptied the federal coffers in the form of banker bailouts.
> Not surprising that some people are looking for ways to extort the overflowing labor pool.


Lol


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## Guest

:whistlingI loose money on every job. But I make up for it in volume. :whistling:whistling


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## Guest

I've said it before in PP threads just like this one. If you don't like what "they" pay, then it's as simple as choosing to not work for them. 

Complaining accomplishes nothing.


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> Three words for you. THEY DON'T CARE! There are WAY to many broke people that will work for nothing and SOME, not ALL of the regionals have figured this out. They pocket more $$$ than the contractor. I have a friend in the Tampa area who owns a lawncare business. He routinely gets calls wanting him to do REPO lawncuts for $10 to $15. The Nationals bill at least $80 so if they take 25% there is $60 left on the table so the regional is pocketing $45 and giving the contractor $15 but as long as there is people that are willing (broke) to do these cuts for $15 it will not change.


These people taking the $15-30 lawn cuts for the nationals that require all the pictures, hassles of getting paid, callbacks, etc. need to realize that there is a huge number of people who would love to pay $30-40-50+ to have their yard cut. No pictures required, no working net/30 or even worse, and no 100 mile round trip to get $30.

Unfortunately this will last for the foreseeable future, until people can find gainful employment that provides them with the health insurance/WC/retirement packages that $15-30 cuts will never provide.


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## Guest

BamBamm5144 said:


> I agree. I don't understand it.
> 
> The P&P thread is nothing more than some 2000+ posts all complaining and others agreeing about the whole industry.


The people crying and complaining are the ones working for the national and regional companies and working for peanuts. If you can't turn a profit then do something else!

Every time I post that I work only for brokers, banks, and asset managers directly I get the same people who chime in and say "Oh, were in a smaller market and the banks ONLY use nationals" Well, that's a load of BULL!! I know of at LEAST 3 major banks who ONLY use brokers for their REO and PP work. 

Even ones like BAC who use their own contractors give me TONS of work! Im talking at least 5-6 jobs per week because their contractor either can't handle it or the bid is too high because everyone is tacking on profit to the original bid.

Bottom line is brokers will give you the most work and most profit, you just need to find the banks that only rely on the brokers and contact them. 

There are some banks like Fannie Mae that use nationals but still make the broker do the rekey. I average 4-5 rekeys a week for fannie mae assets.

The work is out there, you just have to go find it. If it was easy to find a company or the company advertised somewhere then I can guarantee you won't be making any money!!! If it was that easy, well you know the rest.. (think Safeguard, FAS, AMS..etc..)

And im not saying the nationals are bad, in fact if you are new I encourage you to sign up and work for as many nationals as you can. I'm just saying don't make a career out of it. I started out working for Safeguard and worked for them and Cyprexx for 2 years. I gained all the experience I needed and I got to know every REO broker in my area, and they got to know me. That's called building relationships! 

If people are telling you that they are not making money in PP it's either because they are working for regionals or they are lying!

I was in construction for years and I make more money doing PP then I ever did in construction! But then again I get $275 for wints, not $40
I bid every trashout at $50 per cy, I get $75 to cut lawns in row homes in Philly which average about 15' x 30' plus all the repair work and no one EVER takes a cut from my invoices!

So, you will NEVER hear me crying or complaining!!

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


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## mtmtnman

BamBamm5144 said:


> I don't know how much I believe that the whole construction industry went to hell. When I look around my area, I see a lot of legitimate companies still working, some are said to be having record years. My supplier told me they are having a pretty good year.
> 
> We all deal with the same price issues you do, I just think the difference is that the PP business has a low level of entry capital needed (no offense).
> 
> For example with pricing, I bid on two of the exact same roofs. Same price for both, one signed and one read me the riot act.
> 
> Oh yeah, YOU AREN'T responsible for your subs. That might make it easier for you.




Things must be a whole lot different behind the Cheddar Curtain. I left Hayward in Feb 2005 due to lack of decent work. I'll tell you how bad it is here. There where 50 openings for a construction project up here this past spring. There where over 700 applicants in a weeks time. The county only has 90,000 residents so do the math.


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## mtmtnman

BigDaddyPin said:


> Even ones like BAC who use their own contractors give me TONS of work! Im talking at least 5-6 jobs per week because their contractor either can't handle it or the bid is too high because everyone is tacking on profit to the original bid.



You been getting any BAC direct since the changeover 11/1????? It was like shutting off a lightswitch here. The brokers have properties that are weeks late and FAS who has the gig here can't get anyone to work for them so the properties just sit. The brokers are all hounding their asset managers but are told nothing can be done and they CANNOT hire local contractors period. When i was doing BAC direct for the brokers it was an average of 2-3 days from when they called me till they where ready to market and YES the money was VERY good....................


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## Craigslist Hack

We don't work for these middle men but we do follow them. The crap they pull is unbelievable.


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## Gypsos

I was a drywall contrator for over 10 years and now do PP work almost exclusively. I got tired of having all the proper insurance and other paperwork and then getting my throat cut by the companies who use crews of illegals that they pay $60 per day cash to work a 14 hour day.

And it is not just the small fly by night companies that do this. It wasn't too long ago that a very large GC in the area got caught hiding their crew of illegals in a conex box on the job site.

So now I do PP work either by myself or with temp help for larger projects. I will not get rich, but my bills are being paid and my kids are being fed and right now that is a lot more than a lot of people can claim.


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## Guest

Gypsos said:


> I was a drywall contrator for over 10 years and now do PP work almost exclusively. I got tired of having all the proper insurance and other paperwork and then getting my throat cut by the companies who use crews of illegals that they pay $60 per day cash to work a 14 hour day.
> 
> And it is not just the small fly by night companies that do this. It wasn't too long ago that a very large GC in the area got caught hiding their crew of illegals in a conex box on the job site.
> 
> So now I do PP work either by myself or with temp help for larger projects. I will not get rich, but my bills are being paid and my kids are being fed and right now that is a lot more than a lot of people can claim.


Got tired of doing work the right way? So you chose PP? Please..... market your services to people who can afford them and stop waiting weeeeeeekkks for your $30.


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> You been getting any BAC direct since the changeover 11/1????? It was like shutting off a lightswitch here. The brokers have properties that are weeks late and FAS who has the gig here can't get anyone to work for them so the properties just sit. The brokers are all hounding their asset managers but are told nothing can be done and they CANNOT hire local contractors period. When i was doing BAC direct for the brokers it was an average of 2-3 days from when they called me till they where ready to market and YES the money was VERY good....................


To be honest, it has actually picked up in the last few weeks. Tomorrow I have 2 BAC jobs. First is a basement pump out (about 16" of water $650), replace sump ($300), remove wet debris from basement because their contractor can't do the trashout because of the water (8 cy $480), and the other is repairing a block paver patio (strictly cosmetic but its a million dollar listing) $1,200 to remove 10' x 10' section that is sinking and add some crushed stone, compact it, and re-install the pavers!

I don't do any rekeys, wints, trashouts for BAC as they always go to their contractors but it seems like we get almost all of the repair work which is better work anyway.


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## Gypsos

Please excuse my ignorance, but who is BAC?


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## mtmtnman

BigDaddyPin said:


> To be honest, it has actually picked up in the last few weeks. Tomorrow I have 2 BAC jobs. First is a basement pump out (about 16" of water $650), replace sump ($300), remove wet debris from basement because their contractor can't do the trashout because of the water (8 cy $480), and the other is repairing a block paver patio (strictly cosmetic but its a million dollar listing) $1,200 to remove 10' x 10' section that is sinking and add some crushed stone, compact it, and re-install the pavers!
> 
> I don't do any rekeys, wints, trashouts for BAC as they always go to their contractors but it seems like we get almost all of the repair work which is better work anyway.



Where not getting ANY of that. The brokers are being told FAS has to do everything. No clue what is going on but it's very frustrating for the brokers. It's a nice little break for me around the holidays though.....


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## Guest

Oh, and I have 2 capital repair bids to do by Monday.

One of my brokers told me it took almost a month to get a property rekeyed!! And when I went to the property yesterday to do a repair bid the contractor left the wrong keys in the lockbox So it will probably be another month before they can get access.


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## mtmtnman

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Got tired of doing work the right way? So you chose PP? Please..... market your services to people who can afford them and stop waiting weeeeeeekkks for your $30.



Ohio, Re-read his post S-L-O-W-L-Y. He is not tired of doing things the right way, he is tired of having all the proper licensing, insurance, and experience but getting his throat cut by companies hiring illegals for next to nothing. My father lives in Florida and see's this all the time. A legitimate company CAN NOT compete with a company that has a bunch of illegals working for them. Most people could give a crap about quality, they just want the cheapest bid. Nothing here is built to last anymore. All people want is cheap. cheap, cheap! Why do you think Wallyworld does so well??


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> Ohio, Re-read his post S-L-O-W-L-Y. He is not tired of doing things the right way, he is tired of having all the proper licensing, insurance, and experience but getting his throat cut by companies hiring illegals for next to nothing. My father lives in Florida and see's this all the time. A legitimate company CAN NOT compete with a company that has a bunch of illegals working for them. Most people could give a crap about quality, they just want the cheapest bid. Nothing here is built to last anymore. All people want is cheap. cheap, cheap! Why do you think Wallyworld does so well??


Exactly! I was going to respond but you beat me too it.


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## mtmtnman

Gypsos said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, but who is BAC?



Google Is Your Friend.......


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## Guest

Gypsos said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, but who is BAC?


BAC = Bank of America Corp.


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> Ohio, Re-read his post S-L-O-W-L-Y. He is not tired of doing things the right way, he is tired of having all the proper licensing, insurance, and experience but getting his throat cut by companies hiring illegals for next to nothing. My father lives in Florida and see's this all the time. A legitimate company CAN NOT compete with a company that has a bunch of illegals working for them. Most people could give a crap about quality, they just want the cheapest bid. Nothing here is built to last anymore. All people want is cheap. cheap, cheap! Why do you think Wallyworld does so well??


Re read my post twice so you understand it. You couldnt be more wrong. I do not compete with companies who hire illegals and cut corners as they are not my competition. We sell quality to people who appreciate it. You cut grass for people who dont. Dont get me wrong, if it works for you great, but dont use hacks as an excuse to sell out.


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## mtmtnman

BigDaddyPin said:


> Oh, and I have 2 capital repair bids to do by Monday.
> 
> One of my brokers told me it took almost a month to get a property rekeyed!! And when I went to the property yesterday to do a repair bid the contractor left the wrong keys in the lockbox So it will probably be another month before they can get access.



Most of our repo's are in pretty good shape here. Every once in a while we get a dump but the trash outs pay great and with direct work all i do is take a couple dozen after pics to save the broker a trip back to do it themselves. Nice not taken dozens upon dozens of photos!!!


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Re read my post twice so you understand it. You couldnt be more wrong. I do not compete with companies who hire illegals and cut corners as they are not my competition. We sell quality to people who appreciate it. You cut grass for people who dont. Dont get me wrong, if it works for you great, but dont use hacks as an excuse to sell out.


Just because they were not YOUR competition, doesn't mean they were not not HIS competition!! Big difference, you do homeowner work, he said drywall work which I assumed by his post was big jobs that were bid out, not harry homeowner who went to your fancy website.


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> Most of our repo's are in pretty good shape here. Every once in a while we get a dump but the trash outs pay great and with direct work all i do is take a couple dozen after pics to save the broker a trip back to do it themselves. Nice not taken dozens upon dozens of photos!!!


I take allot of photos, but that's just to cover my a..

Aint that funny how we don't need 40 different photos for each and every angle of the job?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I LOVE trashouts and make big money on them but repair work pays even more!

Don't you ever get capital repair bids (carpet, paint, appliances) on the nicer homes?


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## Gypsos

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Re read my post twice so you understand it. You couldnt be more wrong. I do not compete with companies who hire illegals and cut corners as they are not my competition. We sell quality to people who appreciate it. You cut grass for people who dont. Dont get me wrong, if it works for you great, but dont use hacks as an excuse to sell out.


If you bid work in Florida you do. All, and I mean all, of the GCs talk a good game until bid time. Then they simply look at the bottom line. Five years ago I would bid 5 jobs and get 4 of them even though I was rarely the low bid. 

One GC I did alot of work for told me he would gladly pay me 10% more than my competion becasue he could sleep sound knowing the job was going to be done right and he could cut his supervision staff by half on my jobs because my crews did top notch work and he did not have to baby sit me. Right now the same GC looks at price only because that is what his customer is doing.

Some of the worst offenders are the larger GCs becasue they are really taking advantage of the desperation in the industry. 

I refuse to compromise my ethics or quality just to remain competitive. I did not sell out, I diversified. I still do drywall work, but on my terms. 

Besides, specialization is for insects.


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## mtmtnman

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Re read my post twice so you understand it. You couldnt be more wrong. I do not compete with companies who hire illegals and cut corners as they are not my competition. We sell quality to people who appreciate it. You cut grass for people who dont. Dont get me wrong, if it works for you great, but dont use hacks as an excuse to sell out.




Again, Your lucky. There really is no work around. We had a total of 154 building permits issued in this county of 90,000 residents in 2010, 1/3 of those where municiple projects and only 2000 in the entire state. Who are we supposed to sell ourselves to? Every contractor i know is struggling cept for plumbers and they are doing a TON of re-plumbs on repos. 

Here is some data here. See the downward trend? All the folks that where building are now out of a job. New starts are down 500% since 2004.


Single-family new house construction building permits:

* 2004: 389 buildings, average cost: $164,200
* 2007: 278 buildings, average cost: $182,000
* 2008: 189 buildings, average cost: $216,800
* 2009: 78 buildings, average cost: $212,800


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## Gypsos

BigDaddyPin said:


> Just because they were not YOUR competition, doesn't mean they were not not HIS competition!! Big difference, you do homeowner work, he said drywall work which I assumed by his post was big jobs that were bid out, not harry homeowner who went to your fancy website.


My work was primarily commercial metal studs, drywall hanging and finishing, isulation, door frames, suspended ceilings, selective demolition, etc. Average jobs were from $30K - $100K and up.

Never did get into residential work too much since it pays almost exactly half of what commercial does here in Central Florida.


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Re read my post twice so you understand it. You couldnt be more wrong. I do not compete with companies who hire illegals and cut corners as they are not my competition. We sell quality to people who appreciate it. You cut grass for people who dont. Dont get me wrong, if it works for you great, but dont use hacks as an excuse to sell out.


You sell quality alright!!!

What about all of those nice fancy photos on your website?? 

They are all stock photos available on the internet and you are leading people to believe that is YOUR work!!

If your not in the PP industry, why bother reading and responding to our post?

Run along now.


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## Craigslist Hack

back on point I want to get rid of these guys that are using their relationships with the nationals to go on Craigslist and hire Jacklegs. These companies don't require these guys to have insurance and run them ragged then don't pay squat. The nationals don't care. I get under cut on pump outs, grass cuts that are over the allowable. We go to a property and find all the work we just bid has been done. We never knew there was an approval?

How do I find better work? How do I get in with BAC and not through a Berghorst or someone that cuts the pay?

How do I contact realtors?

I like P&P work and in our area I can make it work for the nationals pricing.

The problem is a company pays $75.00 for a standard grass cut but we only see 75% of that. Some do it for even less.


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## Gypsos

Doberman Prop said:


> back on point I want to get rid of these guys that are using their relationships with the nationals to go on Craigslist and hire Jacklegs. These companies don't require these guys to have insurance and run them ragged then don't pay squat. The nationals don't care. I get under cut on pump outs, grass cuts that are over the allowable. We go to a property and find all the work we just bid has been done. We never knew there was an approval?
> 
> How do I find better work? How do I get in with BAC and not through a Berghorst or someone that cuts the pay?
> 
> How do I contact realtors?
> 
> I like P&P work and in our area I can make it work for the nationals pricing.
> 
> The problem is a company pays $75.00 for a standard grass cut but we only see 75% of that. Some do it for even less.


My experience exactly. I just turned down some outfit called Coast to Coast Lawn Care. They wanted to pay $20 for an initial grass cut and $15 for a recut. I have the equipment and know how to do the job right. I just have had no luck with brokers or banks.


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## Guest

BigDaddyPin said:


> You sell quality alright!!!
> 
> What about all of those nice fancy photos on your website??
> 
> They are all stock photos available on the internet and you are leading people to believe that is YOUR work!!
> 
> If your not in the PP industry, why bother reading and responding to our post?
> 
> Run along now.


Your full of chit. 


If there is no work around you move. Im just tired of PPs crying all the time about work not paying enough.


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## Guest

You bitch about mowing for $30, then dont do it.


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## Craigslist Hack

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Your full of chit.
> 
> 
> If there is no work around you move. Im just tired of PPs crying all the time about work not paying enough.


The point of a forum is to discuss things. These guys are going through some tough times and are looking for answers. They want better work and they know it is out there. 

Why would you fault anyone for that?


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## mtmtnman

BigDaddyPin said:


> I take allot of photos, but that's just to cover my a..
> 
> Aint that funny how we don't need 40 different photos for each and every angle of the job?
> 
> Oh, don't get me wrong, I LOVE trashouts and make big money on them but repair work pays even more!
> 
> Don't you ever get capital repair bids (carpet, paint, appliances) on the nicer homes?


I own a commercial truck mount extractor. Get some cleaning with that that pays decent. Painting a few rooms in a $500,000 home right now. Never get appliances. The brokers here negotiate an appliance allowance when possible. No way in hell you'll EVER pick out what a potential buyer wants so the allowance is the best way to go. Also do carpet allowances but do install new on a few. Pretty hard to guess if a buyer wants Berber or pile though. Difference here is our homes only sit on the market 30-60 days before selling and the lions share of them are less than 10 years old......


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Your full of chit.


Really?? 
So the photo on this website:http://www.basementremodelingquotes.com/
is not the same exact photo you are using on yours??

what about this one?:
http://www.ips-albania.com/remodeled-basement-to-improve-the-appearance/
Look familiar???

It took me about 10 seconds to google "basement remodel photos" to find these two, if I wanted to spend another 5 min. I could find the rest.


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## Guest

Doberman Prop said:


> The point of a forum is to discuss things. These guys are going through some tough times and are looking for answers. They want better work and they know it is out there.
> 
> Why would you fault anyone for that?


No. With the amount of time spent here b1tching about tough times one could easily comprise a game plane to move forward. Market your business to homeowners. If you set up to haul trash and mow then sell those services to actual people. We hire a few guys who haul trash off our jobs and scrap out large projects. They make $200-350 a day depending on the scope of tasks. Get a list of contractors and send business to business proposals. Hit the streets and pass out flyers. There is an infinite number of things you can do to improve your situation.


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## mtmtnman

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Your full of chit.
> 
> 
> If there is no work around you move. Im just tired of PPs crying all the time about work not paying enough.



Then don't come to a forum you have no industry experience in!!! Plain and simple! Don't you have a bid or something to do??????


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## Gypsos

The real problem is people like ohiohomedoctor who have no clue about the PP industry. They see people having a serius discussion, airing greivances and looking for advice as "crying." 

The fact is he does not belong in this conversation because it is out of his field and over his head. His rants and insults are annoying and entertaining at the same time. I am no longer going to acknowledge his existence in this thread. 

I will catch up later. The Black Friday sales are starting and my wife just asked me if I want to go in that special tone that implies doom for me if I do not joyously answer yes. 

Later.


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> Then don't come to a forum you have no industry experience in!!! Plain and simple! Don't you have a bid or something to do??????


Or find some more photos of OTHER peoples work to put on YOUR website!


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## Guest

BigDaddyPin said:


> Really??
> So the photo on this website:http://www.basementremodelingquotes.com/
> is not the same exact photo you are using on yours??
> 
> what about this one?:
> http://www.ips-albania.com/remodeled-basement-to-improve-the-appearance/
> Look familiar???
> 
> It took me about 10 seconds to google "basement remodel photos" to find these two, if I wanted to spend another 5 min. I could find the rest.


That is my project which the photo has been stolen hundreds of times over the years. I dont need to explain anything I do to you. With the effort you just spent you could of figured out how to climb out of the ditch your in instead of attacking me. If your angry its at yourself not me, grow up.


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> That is my project which the photo has been stolen hundreds of times over the years. I dont need to explain anything I do to you. With the effort you just spent you could of figured out how to climb out of the ditch your in instead of attacking me. If your angry its at yourself not me, grow up.


Great, I was hoping your would say that!

Can you post photos of DIFFERENT angles of that job, or is that the only 1 you took??


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> That is my project which the photo has been stolen hundreds of times over the years. I dont need to explain anything I do to you. With the effort you just spent you could of figured out how to climb out of the ditch your in instead of attacking me. If your angry its at yourself not me, grow up.


I'm not in a ditch and never said I was.


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## Craigslist Hack

ohiohomedoctor said:


> No. With the amount of time spent here b1tching about tough times one could easily comprise a game plane to move forward. Market your business to homeowners. If you set up to haul trash and mow then sell those services to actual people. We hire a few guys who haul trash off our jobs and scrap out large projects. They make $200-350 a day depending on the scope of tasks. Get a list of contractors and send business to business proposals. Hit the streets and pass out flyers. There is an infinite number of things you can do to improve your situation.


I never EVER EVER want to work for homeowners again! PERIOD!!! They are fickle they often don't pay, they got 15 quotes and think you told them XYZ and it was one of the other guys. No Way never again. 

I don't mind taking pictures and I don't really mind working for nationals. I DON'T like middle men from other states taking my work and subing it out to Jacklegs.

We buy and flip properties and do well with that. I also have a background in the Water Tank industry and occasionally consult and project manage. The thing is that doesn't help my contractors that live in other markets. We are trying to get more direct work.


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## Guest

BigDaddyPin said:


> Great, I was hoping your would say that!
> 
> Can you post photos of DIFFERENT angles of that job, or is that the only 1 you took??


 i dont need to explain myself to you. Your in the position you are because of your attitude obviously.


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## Guest

I love it how everyone gets along, just like a nice big happy family at Thanksgiving dinner :whistling


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## Craigslist Hack

Lawn Mower Man said:


> I love it how everyone gets along, just like a nice big happy family at Thanksgiving dinner :whistling


so much for networking......


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## Guest

ohiohomedoctor said:


> BigDaddyPin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great, I was hoping your would say that!
> 
> Can you post photos of DIFFERENT angles of that job, or is that the only 1 you took??[/QUot
> 
> i dont need to explain myself to you. Your in the position you are because of your attitude obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you don't:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> Because you don't have the photos, they are STOCK photos!!
> 
> Like I said, RUN ALONG we don't need you.
Click to expand...


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## Guest

He does make a good point (ohiohomedoctor). There is no reason why illegals should be your competition. If that were the case, I could complain everyday. It also makes no sense to complain about getting paid a number you agree to.

I could sell 10k roofs for 5k ALL day then get mad that I only get 5k a roof because of those darn homeowners.

Wouldn't it be beneficial to most of you financially and mentally to just go work for someone else? Are you guys going to physically work your whole lifes? I read where some guy has 1k worth of work to do tomorrow. I think how in the heck can he pay for materials and an employee for that rate.


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## Guest

Happy thanks giving, best wishes!


Ill leaves you guys alone.


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## Craigslist Hack

BamBamm5144 said:


> He does make a good point (ohiohomedoctor). There is no reason why illegals should be your competition. If that were the case, I could complain everyday. It also makes no sense to complain about getting paid a number you agree to.
> 
> I could sell 10k roofs for 5k ALL day then get mad that I only get 5k a roof because of those darn homeowners.
> 
> Wouldn't it be beneficial to most of you financially and mentally to just go work for someone else? Are you guys going to physically work your whole lifes? I read where some guy has 1k worth of work to do tomorrow. I think how in the heck can he pay for materials and an employee for that rate.


One huge advantage to our industry is the low overhead. I rarely get out in the field these days so I am mostly a desk jockey. I like a mix of both. I don't agree to pricing that doesn't add up period. You can't agree to something then bitch about it. You can however be constantly trying to get better. If your cutting yards for $30.00 a pop you should be trying to find those 100.00 yards. I am simply asking for guidance on how to get there. I am not being whiney or complaining about my deal. We have no illegals here to speak of. Definitely not enough to matter, but we do have laid off factory workers getting exploited daily. This industry is different than construction quality plays a very small role in what we do. the industry saying is as long as it looks good in a picture. The driving factors in this industry are speed, volume, and price.

I want all the volume we can get I will work for a fair price and we currently offer 24 to 48 hour turn arounds. We just want to get more profitable and handle more volume.


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> I own a commercial truck mount extractor. Get some cleaning with that that pays decent. Painting a few rooms in a $500,000 home right now. Never get appliances. The brokers here negotiate an appliance allowance when possible. No way in hell you'll EVER pick out what a potential buyer wants so the allowance is the best way to go. Also do carpet allowances but do install new on a few. Pretty hard to guess if a buyer wants Berber or pile though. Difference here is our homes only sit on the market 30-60 days before selling and the lions share of them are less than 10 years old......


In PA, a house MUST have a oven/stove/range to get FHA loan.
It can't have any peeling paint either. 

Unless the house is a total gut and going to be purchased by an investor with cash, the bank must get the property in FHA condition.

The most common repairs we typically do are repaint, install handrails, fix steps, install range. There are others but that is most common.


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## Guest

BigDaddyPin said:


> Really??
> So the photo on this website:http://www.basementremodelingquotes.com/
> is not the same exact photo you are using on yours??
> 
> what about this one?:
> http://www.ips-albania.com/remodeled-basement-to-improve-the-appearance/
> Look familiar???
> 
> It took me about 10 seconds to google "basement remodel photos" to find these two, if I wanted to spend another 5 min. I could find the rest.


LOL....I was thinking the EXACT same thing. I've seen that photo so many times lately it's almost become a joke. Every new Joe Blow's Remodeling company seems to be using that exact same photo.


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## mtmtnman

BigDaddyPin said:


> In PA, a house MUST have a oven/stove/range to get FHA loan.
> It can't have any peeling paint either.
> 
> Unless the house is a total gut and going to be purchased by an investor with cash, the bank must get the property in FHA condition.
> 
> The most common repairs we typically do are repaint, install handrails, fix steps, install range. There are others but that is most common.




Our HUD's here are sold as is. Many are sold on a rehab loan. I would guess that 80% of the repos that sell here do NOT have appliances. I like sales cleans with no appliances as the kitchen takes the longest to clean........


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## Guest

FHA loans normally always require appliances but we never do them since there is no $$ in this since they use the Whirlpool Appliance call-in center and they deliver and setup--they don't hook up the electrical on an electric range (they leave the cord in the stove) due to liability and we would charge $150.00 to do this and they always approved


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> Our HUD's here are sold as is. Many are sold on a rehab loan. I would guess that 80% of the repos that sell here do NOT have appliances. I like sales cleans with no appliances as the kitchen takes the longest to clean........


I guess it's different everywhere.

Most of my work is in Philadelphia where they don't do any cosmetic repairs, only the stuff I listed to get it to FHA standards. Actually the number 1 repair is installing meter couplings and fittings so the water company can install a new meter for settlement. (crackheads steal the copper)

Outside the city it's a different ballgame. Almost all properties are rehabbed, unless they are in very bad shape.


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## mtmtnman

FremontREO said:


> FHA loans normally always require appliances but we never do them since there is no $$ in this since they use the Whirlpool Appliance call-in center and they deliver and setup--they don't hook up the electrical on an electric range (they leave the cord in the stove) due to liability and we would charge $150.00 to do this and they always approved


This must be state specific? We have closed on literally dozens with no appliances. Many of them are 203K rehab loans so maybe that is the difference??


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## Craigslist Hack

mtmtnman said:


> This must be state specific? We have closed on literally dozens with no appliances. Many of them are 203K rehab loans so maybe that is the difference??


These are the kind of things I am noticing. No state to state consistency.

How can that be?


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## Guest

mtmtnman said:


> This must be state specific? We have closed on literally dozens with no appliances. Many of them are 203K rehab loans so maybe that is the difference??


Well with a 203K, the bank already knows that it needs work and that's the reason for that type of loan so obviously they don't require appliances. 

I think it may just be loans backed by FHA that require it. 

When the property is under contract and the loan is in underwriting the lender sends out an appraiser and he usually turns in a list of things that must be corrected before they will issue the loan. 

That's the way its done around here anyway.

There is never an allowance to buyer because they will never do it, the lender makes the seller (bank) do the repairs or they won't process the loan.


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## BPWY

mtmtnman said:


> Again, Your lucky. There really is no work around. We had a total of 154 building permits issued in this county of 90,000 residents in 2010, 1/3 of those where municiple projects and only 2000 in the entire state. Who are we supposed to sell ourselves to? Every contractor i know is struggling cept for plumbers and they are doing a TON of re-plumbs on repos.
> 
> Here is some data here. See the downward trend? All the folks that where building are now out of a job. New starts are down 500% since 2004.
> 
> 
> Single-family new house construction building permits:
> 
> * 2004: 389 buildings, average cost: $164,200
> * 2007: 278 buildings, average cost: $182,000
> * 2008: 189 buildings, average cost: $216,800
> * 2009: 78 buildings, average cost: $212,800







Like I've told you 100 times on the phone.......... your area cannot be as bad as you claim to have the bank owned houses going under contract with in days like you say they are.

If that market is booming there should be some signs of activity in other places as well.
That is how it works.


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## Guest

Looks like things have calmed down but a warning nonetheless. Keep it civil or the thread will be closed/edited. 

Thanks


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## Guest

Funny that the housing market crash created this new market. In my experience it is filled with characters of a special sort. 

That is me being nice btw angus.


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## mtmtnman

BPWY said:


> Like I've told you 100 times on the phone.......... your area cannot be as bad as you claim to have the bank owned houses going under contract with in days like you say they are.
> 
> If that market is booming there should be some signs of activity in other places as well.
> That is how it works.



Not always. This is a resort area. Lots of California money drove up prices above where the average Joe working the average job could afford to buy. People that where renting because of the outrageous home prices brought on by the "rich" folks from California, Texas, Western Oregon, Western Washington Ect. are buying now that the prices have fallen. For the 1st time in a LONG time, the average Joe with a stable job can afford to buy. I have met some of the people buying these homes. They are Nurses, Cops, Small business owners, Teachers Ect. This year per one of my biggest clients, 65-70% of homes sold where foreclosures or short sales. The rest where people who sold flat or at a loss. Unemployment here is still around 10%.................


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## Guest

*Stimulus money's been spent*

Face it, the Obummer stimulus money has all run out . The banks are out of the poeples tax money to spend.


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## Craigslist Hack

JHC said:


> Funny that the housing market crash created this new market. In my experience it is filled with characters of a special sort.
> 
> That is me being nice btw angus.


This is very true. Those that HAVE- in this case the contacts for the work prey on those that HAVE NOT- in this case a job or means of making a living so they are willing to do just about anything to feed their families.

We work very hard to do a good job for our clients and to pay our guys fairly. It's not always easy!


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