# Backfeeding Houses with a Generator



## PropertyWerX LTD. (Apr 15, 2013)

We fully understand this is an illegal procedure BUT how would one(such as myself) negotiate with companies who are requiring this? Please elaborate...

This may not be the right section to post this article... If not, please move to the right area.

Thank you so much for your help PreservationTalk!


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## UnitedFieldInspections (Dec 20, 2012)

What companys are requesting this?I wouldnt even try it with some of these homes just say no.I have it setup in my house and it came in handy during hurricane sandy,But it needs to be done by an licensed electrician and done right!


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

We use the Nevada State Contractors Board here...they have determined the service requires an Electrical contractor...

And tell them it is illegal and you're not jeapordizing your company's future....


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## PropertyWerX LTD. (Apr 15, 2013)

*Backfeeding Houses...*

Blmreo


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

PropertyWerX said:


> We fully understand this is an illegal procedure BUT how would one(such as myself) negotiate with companies who are requiring this? Please elaborate...
> 
> This may not be the right section to post this article... If not, please move to the right area.
> 
> Thank you so much for your help PreservationTalk!


Quote/forward a copy of National Electric Code. If that doesn't work ask your insurance agent how quick they will drop you when something goes wrong. You'll find that your agent will convince you that you shouldn't even need to "negotiate with companies who are requiring this".....


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

We have been to houses that the wiring was partially ripped out, jacked up, purposely miswired to cause damage/harm, sub panels for subpanels that were wired by Otis, 60 amp fused panels running the house, garage, and three outbuildings. The average GC has no business risking health and liability for an HPIR and most urban/suburban municipalities, as well as the utility have regulations prohibiting backfeeding. The phrase "You touch it you own it" applies here, and don't count on your insurance to cya.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*Tell them your preliminary continuity check reveals a short circuit in the system.*

Further troubleshooting is needed, minimum charge for this service is $500, pass or fail.


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## PropertyWerX LTD. (Apr 15, 2013)

*Backfeeding houses with Generator*

Thank you OhNoJim, finally an honest answer to a problem without being such a negative vendor. We are looking for more work in this industry and NOT LOOKING TO PASS UP ON WORK OFFERED! But we want to be fairly compensated as well. :thumbsup:


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## GaReops (Aug 7, 2012)

PropertyWerX said:


> We fully understand this is an illegal procedure BUT how would one(such as myself) negotiate with companies who are requiring this? Please elaborate...
> 
> This may not be the right section to post this article... If not, please move to the right area.
> 
> Thank you so much for your help PreservationTalk!


If you try to negotiate you will get the ole "this service is required by our client" line. Illegal in most places? Sure. Safe? Absolutely not. Chance of burning down a house? Right on! Either you do it or they will find someone else who is willing to do it.. So why not you do it? We do it on every initial services w/o, that "appears" to have a working electrical system.


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## Prather Guy (Sep 28, 2013)

It's OK to do a backfeed as long as it DOES NOT backfeed onto the electrical power companies lines. It can be used as a troubleshooting method. Just install a double pole breaker into the main panel that you hook the generator up to. Involves a lot of work & they should be billed a lot


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## hammerhead (Apr 26, 2012)

Prather Guy said:


> It's OK to do a backfeed as long as it DOES NOT backfeed onto the electrical power companies lines. It can be used as a troubleshooting method. Just install a double pole breaker into the main panel that you hook the generator up to. Involves a lot of work & they should be billed a lot




:hang:


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

PropertyWerX said:


> Thank you OhNoJim, finally an honest answer to a problem without being such a negative vendor. We are looking for more work in this industry and NOT LOOKING TO PASS UP ON WORK OFFERED! But we want to be fairly compensated as well. :thumbsup:


Sometimes reality is a negative, but it doesn't change anything.
Every qualified and licensed electrician should be compensated well for their knowledge and experience. If you have the credentials and the insurance, let them know up front what your skill is worth and then their "client" can decide if they want to pony up.


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## Prather Guy (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi,

I do electrical work & yes, you should be licensed,& this method is legal, again as long as your not backfeeding into the main electrical network. It allows you to find what is working & what is not. It is not meant to supply all the power you need, but to determine what has power & what doesn't. It's the same principal has hooking up an emergency standby generator


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*There is nothing you can learn with a generator.*



Prather Guy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do electrical work & yes, you should be licensed,& this method is legal, again as long as your not backfeeding into the main electrical network. It allows you to find what is working & what is not. It is not meant to supply all the power you need, but to determine what has power & what doesn't. It's the same principal has hooking up an emergency standby generator[/Q
> 
> That someone qualified could not learn with a VOM, or multimeter.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

Prather Guy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I do electrical work & yes, you should be licensed,& this method is legal, again as long as your not backfeeding into the main electrical network. It allows you to find what is working & what is not. It is not meant to supply all the power you need, but to determine what has power & what doesn't. It's the same principal has hooking up an emergency standby generator


The only way this can be done legally is with a permanently installed transfer switch. This is also required to be done by a licensed electrician, at least around here anyway. I highly doubt that anyone is installing anything permanently to HUD house electrical system for the chitty prices being paid to do an HPIR.

For those of you reading this thread, proceed with caution and know what services you are licensed and insured to perform........For what its worth, my state licensed master electrician told me that backfeeding was the most asinine thing he's heard of. He would however meet the POCO and perform a complete electrical inspection with them while they restored power.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

1st day on the job, eh?


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

PropertyWerX said:


> We fully understand this is an illegal procedure BUT how would one(such as myself) negotiate with companies who are requiring this? Please elaborate...
> 
> This may not be the right section to post this article... If not, please move to the right area.
> 
> Thank you so much for your help PreservationTalk!





Its real simple. 




N O.


Two letters. And then stick to it, don't give in no matter how much crying and begging they do.


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## Prather Guy (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi,

This seems to be a sensitive topic with different opinions on it. I guess I'd ask - what are the property companies trying to achieve with the request for the backfeed? I guess living in the "sticks" is different than the cities based on the reactions I've seem posted on this subject


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Prather Guy said:


> Hi,
> 
> This seems to be a sensitive topic with different opinions on it. I guess I'd ask - what are the property companies trying to achieve with the request for the backfeed? I guess living in the "sticks" is different than the cities based on the reactions I've seem posted on this subject


They want a $500 top to bottom inside and out professional property inspection for which they will pay you $85 and have you assume all liability and risk.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Prather Guy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I guess living in the "sticks" is different than the cities based on the reactions I've seem posted on this subject


I live in the sticks. I installed a transfer switch to run my house and shop and the chicken coop. No permits or licenses are required out here. I knew what I had and what needed to be done. But if I came across this house and upon walking inside, starting seeing wires capped, missing fixtures, soot around the outlets, etc, I don't care if they are "offering" the work or not. It boils down to Qualifications, Liability/Risk and Compensation. You had better resolve all three because with a National you are playing the house, and the house never loses.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

I've always been baffled that a government entity...HUD can not have the power turned on for 8 friggin hours to have everything professionally done...
makes no sense...


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## Field Audit Services LLC (Mar 24, 2013)

Because HUD isn't who owns the PRIVATELY owned and operated power companies. 

And screw burning the house down, beats the hell out of killing the unsuspecting lineman outside up on a pole. Because it IS ILLEGAL to remove a utility meter (running or otherwise) yourself without the express consent of the utility themselves (that ain't happening). 

Yes, you can KILL YOURSELF also.

Yes, you can BURN THE HOUSE DOWN.

Yes, you can HARM THOSE YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

You need work that desperitely? :glare:

http://www.preservationtalk.com/showpost.php?p=25597&postcount=8


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*If for some stupid reason, I were going to backfeed a house*



Field Audit Services LLC said:


> Because HUD isn't who owns the PRIVATELY owned and operated power companies.
> 
> And screw burning the house down, beats the hell out of killing the unsuspecting lineman outside up on a pole. Because it IS ILLEGAL to remove a utility meter (running or otherwise) yourself without the express consent of the utility themselves (that ain't happening).
> 
> ...


not that I ever would, because there are far better, safer, and cheaper ways to troubleshoot an electrical system. Our local power company will do disconnect, reconnect service, free and reliably on time every time. We nearly always have them do it for siding jobs, to side behind the meter base. I'm sure they would do it for testing. This would make it both legal and safer. I still think it's a stupid way to test, even without the danger. It's a lot like testing a plumbing system with water, what's the point of testing, if your testing is going to cause the damage you're trying to avoid with your testing. Duh!


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## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

I have some knowledge of electrical systems. Prior to being in the PPI I was in sales of electrical equipment.

Backfeeding a domestic electrical system can be done safely (not going to get into legality) only if there is a disconnect means between the breaker box and the meter. Either a transfer switch or a main breaker in the breaker box. If the main breaker box does not have a main breaker, you should not backfeed - period. If you backfeed without a disconnect, you are putting power into the grid. This is dangerous and puts you at risk of causing damage or harm.

And, if there are any signs of an incomplete electrical system inside the dwelling -missing fixtures or damages to any electrical apparatus, then you should not backfeed without a professional inspection. You have no way of knowing what the homeowner did when removing the parts of the electrical system. Just because there are wire caps on the wires doesn't mean they didn't cross wire a circuit.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

BamaPPC said:


> Backfeeding a domestic electrical system can be done safely (not going to get into legality) only if there is a disconnect means between the breaker box and the meter. Either a transfer switch or a main breaker in the breaker box. If the main breaker box does not have a main breaker, you should not backfeed - period. If you backfeed without a disconnect, you are putting power into the grid.


Bama, 

Giving this advice is a little on the dangerous side. A main breaker doesn't always guarantee the power to be off. I have personally witnessed cases where the breakers are doubled tapped or bypassed completely. I have also personally seen a case where the panel in the house "appeared" to be the main panel, but was not.

There is a huge assumption being made that the house was/is wired correctly and isn't subjected to vandalism or worse yet, sabotage.

I too have a little background knowledge in electricity. In my younger years, I earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering. I am not a licensed electrician and never will claim to be. I am however smart enough to know what I should and should not do when it comes to electricity and the power grid.

I encourage all reading this to think of this like Russian roulette. If you had a six shot revolver with 1 bullet, would you pull the trigger? What if the gun was a 1000 shot? I guarantee all you this: There is a proverbial bullet in the gun. At some point the gun will go off. What you don't know is how many bullets the gun holds.



BamaPPC said:


> you should not backfeed without a professional inspection.


^-----this is the only advice that is needed


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## RServant (Jul 13, 2013)

BRADSConst said:


> Bama,
> 
> Giving this advice is a little on the dangerous side. A main breaker doesn't always guarantee the power to be off. I have personally witnessed cases where the breakers are doubled tapped or bypassed completely. I have also personally seen a case where the panel in the house "appeared" to be the main panel, but was not.


A while back I read something to the effect of being able to shut the power down from the panel in 6 throws. It is probably an old standard, and I don't keep up with it as it isn't something I dabble in. If I read it right, and a house is wired with 6 throws in mind, you very well could have a "main", but you aren't really cutting off connection from the panel to the can. I speculate you could have your main feed coming into the panel, and your 220 breakers could be wired in before the "main" breaker, something like that. So your "main" being one throw, leaving you up to 5 more breakers that aren't affected by the main breaker. Any of this sound right :blink:


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## rrogers66 (Sep 30, 2013)

I am pretty sure that the main cuts all power. Here in the hurricane capital of the world(Florida for those who didn't know), this is a common practice when we go days without power. The Power Companies do not recommend it of course. But during the event they always say "when connecting a generator to a house, make sure the main breaker is off." This is to prevent voltage into the lines being worked on. But the main issue is when the power is restored and the generator is still connected and the main is not off.

NOTICE***** I did not say it was ok to do this. I said it is and has been done to one's own home during a natural disaster. Chances are minimal for law suits under those circumstances. From hearing you guys, I would say the changes are 100% in the PP field.


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## dac1204 (Feb 16, 2013)

Instead of back feeding the house why cant you test all appliances through a generator (fridge, stove, oven, hvac would take time but could be done etc)

Then you could test the outlets with a digital circuit finder. Simply plug it in and you could tell if that outlet would have power. You could atleast eliminate cut or broken lines this way. 

This would take a lot of time but could still be done safely. 

Just a thought. The nationals would never pay enough for me to do it this way though.


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## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

BRADSConst said:


> Bama,
> 
> Giving this advice is a little on the dangerous side. A main breaker doesn't always guarantee the power to be off. I have personally witnessed cases where the breakers are doubled tapped or bypassed completely. I have also personally seen a case where the panel in the house "appeared" to be the main panel, but was not.
> 
> ...


Brad, I am not going to disagree with anything you said. Except that you misread what I said. I said there should be a disconnect means between the dwelling and the power grid before any backfeeding. Either a transfer switch or a main breaker. If you are standing on the outside of the dwelling, where the power feed comes to the mast, and the meter box is right above the only breaker panel and that breaker panel has a main breaker - it's a no brainer. That main is a disconnect from the meter. If you are unsure - don't.

But, there are senarios where someone has bypassed the meter - and if they did, it will be obvious.

I was offering some basic advice to those that feel they must try to backfeed, to at least try and be safe.

Personally, if its not my house and I feel certain there aren't any problems with the electrical circuitry - I wouldn't personally backfeed an electrical system under any circumstances. There would be a licensed electrician handling the backfeed.


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## Field Audit Services LLC (Mar 24, 2013)

A main breaker IS NO GUARANTEE that a home is disconnected from the 'grid'. Power jumps contacts ALL the time. And the fear isn't for when the power comes back on, it is when an unsuspecting lineman, working on what is believed and supposed to be a dead line, finds it energized from self appointed 'know-it-all' shade tree electricians. And by that time, it is usually to late.

Again, short of a transfer switch being PROFESSIONALLY INSTALLED, one SHOULD NOT backfeed a homes electrical system with a generator.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

As Bill Engvall says "Here's your sign".


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## Prather Guy (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi,

Dumb question on this topic
If you need to backfeed I.E. no power there are usually 1 of 3 reasons
1. Service drop / meter panel has been vandalized so there is no power to the electric panel
2. Smart meter has been turned off - not sure if all states have them - CA does
3. Electric company has turned off the transformer / connections

Am I missing something here? In reality, if your going to "repair" the wiring / panel, permits are usually required for that repair PLUS updates to the circuits - GFIC's, ARC breakers, etc. I know this will depend on county as to what you're actually required to do.


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