# Using bleach and painting over mold......



## SkilledS2000

Does not get rid of the harmful mold, it just hides it. If you are a maintenance vendor and follow these dumb nationals protocols, I hope you have good insurance. 

When the new homeowners start getting sick and start finding that hidden mold, who's going to get in trouble? 

I have one word for my fellow contractors, RUN!

If you see mold, bid to totally remove. Do not bid to bleach and paint. That's some serious negligence. If they don't approve the bid, don't continue to do it. Not worth the anxiety.


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## Click1764

Most guys don't believe u and the ones that know better cant stop the ones that don't.. It's a mess and someday when someone's kid gets sick or a major lawsuit happens it'll be blown out of the water


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## GTX63

And then covering it up with tile....


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## Valley

We never cleanup mold.That is a no no. If you are not licensed to do mold remediation stay away from it. The ramifications can be very costly.Both in dollars and legal action.You as a contractor need to make your first responsibility to your self and you company.


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## bcollins

did a w/o about a month ago basement flooded first time at property mold in basement starting upstairs I bid to remove the mold from al walls affected and the drop ceiling tile gave good measurments to each room and dollar amount got w/o back bank wanted me to treat and kiltzed knowing this would not cure the problem I expressed to my field advicer (what a joke) he said to go and do the work the bank just wanted to see an effort so did and after bleaching walls and painting them there was hardly any drywall left as soon as the roller touched the walls the drywall fell apart. I am by no means a expert just flunkie but common sense should tell you any big job that has lotsof mold that a regular contractor shouldn't touch I made good money doing it but it will be my last my lungs mean to much to me the risk not worth it reassign


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## Valley

bcollins said:


> did a w/o about a month ago basement flooded first time at property mold in basement starting upstairs I bid to remove the mold from al walls affected and the drop ceiling tile gave good measurments to each room and dollar amount got w/o back bank wanted me to treat and kiltzed knowing this would not cure the problem I expressed to my field advicer (what a joke) he said to go and do the work the bank just wanted to see an effort so did and after bleaching walls and painting them there was hardly any drywall left as soon as the roller touched the walls the drywall fell apart. I am by no means a expert just flunkie but common sense should tell you any big job that has lotsof mold that a regular contractor shouldn't touch I made good money doing it but it will be my last my lungs mean to much to me the risk not worth it reassign



I think i would have told him to have a nice day. And then sent him some info from the EPA


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## Cleanupman

bcollins said:


> did a w/o about a month ago basement flooded first time at property mold in basement starting upstairs I bid to remove the mold from al walls affected and the drop ceiling tile gave good measurments to each room and dollar amount got w/o back bank wanted me to treat and kiltzed knowing this would not cure the problem I expressed to my field advicer (what a joke) he said to go and do the work the bank just wanted to see an effort so did and after bleaching walls and painting them there was hardly any drywall left as soon as the roller touched the walls the drywall fell apart. I am by no means a expert just flunkie but common sense should tell you any big job that has lotsof mold that a regular contractor shouldn't touch I made good money doing it but it will be my last my lungs mean to much to me the risk not worth it reassign


Not trying to be a dick...not something you want to place in a public forum....
Our company has ALWAYS refuced to perform the bleach and kilz crap....if we see mold we report MOLD not discoloration..period...

Here is what will happen...
#1 You're not licensed in mold remediation therefore you are not qualified to IDENTIFY mold...
#2 You are not insured to perform the service being reported as mold/discoloration remediation.
#3 Doesn't matter if you do not know and understand the law you put an X o a contract you are smart enough to read and the court will not accept I was doing what I was told.
#4 There is something in the legal world called "personal Capacity" you're about to find out just how that works in a lawsuit.....

People you have to start telling these companies no...period...


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## bcollins

you are absolutely right everyone needs to say no these companies make you think that u need them to survive we need to remember that these are our own business not theres and they need us worst than we need them. You can only chase a dollar for so long and once they con you in they think they got you gotta stick up for yourself and if they take work away then so be it


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## brm1109

Hi argue everyweek about this. We are certified to remove mold and tell them on all work orders that we will not bleach clean and paint over mold on drywall, just to much liability.
I love when I get well our company just wants it done that way. My standard reply is always ok have somebody do it.
Not to long ago I went round and round that there was a job where I wouldn't do the bleach and said find another contractor. Guess what, I went to the property for something else and sure enough, they bleach cleaned it and painted it. Good luck in court on that one.
Sorry but I have worked too hard to build my company just to do a crap job because that is what your client wants.
The best was there was one company that said to us, well if you will not do it their way then we will find somebody who will. Good go ahead and have a nice life.


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## P3+

My take:
Think of it as if YOU and YOUR family are moving into that home. Would you allow your wife or kids live in that house knowing what lies beneath/behind those walls? HELL NO you wouldn't. I don't give a rats ass how much $$$ a company is willing to pay to bleach/kilz...simply put the only ethical and responsible thing to do is to to do it RIGHT. 

So you clowns (and yes I mean exactly that...I could be harsher) that are doing this, SHAME ON YOU.


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## thanohano44

P3+ said:


> My take:
> Think of it as if YOU and YOUR family are moving into that home. Would you allow your wife or kids live in that house knowing what lies beneath/behind those walls? HELL NO you wouldn't. I don't give a rats ass how much $$$ a company is willing to pay to bleach/kilz...simply put the only ethical and responsible thing to do is to to do it RIGHT.
> 
> So you clowns (and yes I mean exactly that...I could be harsher) that are doing this, SHAME ON YOU.


Absolutely. It basically comes down to doing the right thing.


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## Splinterpicker

SkilledS2000 said:


> Does not get rid of the harmful mold, it just hides it. If you are a maintenance vendor and follow these dumb nationals protocols, I hope you have good insurance.
> 
> When the new homeowners start getting sick and start finding that hidden mold, who's going to get in trouble?
> 
> I have one word for my fellow contractors, RUN!
> 
> If you see mold, bid to totally remove. Do not bid to bleach and paint. That's some serious negligence. If they don't approve the bid, don't continue to do it. Not worth the anxiety.


Cant speak for your insurance co but mine dioes NOT allow me to treat ANY mold !1 Not even hire serve pro or another service co that doese !! Check it out with your insurance co because YOU and ONLY YOU will be left holding the bag when you find out the HARD way. Secondly if you are going to do mold remediation be SURE to put in a HIDDEN DAMAGES CLAUSE and word it to state basically "If there is mold found inside the wall it will be delt with ona an additional bid basis and is not included in this bid, This covers removal disposal of old materials and insatallation of new materials . We will bid additional damages (hidden damages) on an additional bid basis. When approved the priimary and additional bid work shall be completed"


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## Cleanupman

I'm looking for a company that specializes in mold remediation to interview for part of my continuing education series for the NPPG....
if any is a mold remediation specialist and would like to get some shameless self promotion for your company please contact me at
[email protected]
Please place MOLD INTERVIEW in the subject line.

Sure would appreciate it...

Thanks...


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## Expat

*Mold Remediation*

Check out Season 1 episode 6 of Holmes Inspections. Titled "holding it in" It was on tv again today about a couple that purchased a house loaded with mold. Interesting and enlightening. I'm sure there were some names mentioned


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## Wannabe

90% of my restoration is mold. Drop me a pm or BPWY or Mtnman or Bradsco or.... can give u my #.


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## Ohnojim

*I do not have a problem, nor do I*

foresee any legal issues with under 100 sq, ft, or so surface cleaning of mold, as long as it is not a general condition of the building, and is done in conjunction with steps to remedy the cause, such as dehumidifiers. clean-up of standing water, roof drainage, etc. However once it is a general condition, or is clearly grown into porous materials, leave it to the pros, or remove affected materials completely. The key is to not imply or express any warranty of effectiveness, and don't use the M word. Anytime I can get $800 for a half a can of kilz, I'm most likely gonna do it. If you think that makes me a hack, oh well!


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## hammerhead

Ohnojim said:


> foresee any legal issues with under 100 sq, ft, or so surface cleaning of mold, as long as it is not a general condition of the building, and is done in conjunction with steps to remedy the cause, such as dehumidifiers. clean-up of standing water, roof drainage, etc. However once it is a general condition, or is clearly grown into porous materials, leave it to the pros, or remove affected materials completely. The key is to not imply or express any warranty of effectiveness, and don't use the M word. Anytime I can get $800 for a half a can of kilz, I'm most likely gonna do it. If you think that makes me a hack, oh well!


Save that $800 your gonna need it.


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## GTX63

We have pretty much made our wagon of hay and have moved away from remediation. There are too many clowns involved now to be a broad based contractor in that field.


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## SkilledS2000

Ohnojim said:


> foresee any legal issues with under 100 sq, ft, or so surface cleaning of mold, as long as it is not a general condition of the building, and is done in conjunction with steps to remedy the cause, such as dehumidifiers. clean-up of standing water, roof drainage, etc. However once it is a general condition, or is clearly grown into porous materials, leave it to the pros, or remove affected materials completely. The key is to not imply or express any warranty of effectiveness, and don't use the M word. Anytime I can get $800 for a half a can of kilz, I'm most likely gonna do it. If you think that makes me a hack, oh well!



I guess you are a licensed mold remediation contractor. When money talks, people get sick in this shoddy trade. 

I'm fine with shoddy repairs in this hackers paradise because of the low pay, but this mold fiasco is going to bring down these nationals hard. 1/2 the properties I walk past stink to high heaven from mold. 

I should start screen printing all of the estimates I see that say "bleach and paint with kilz". It's alarming.


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## Ohnojim

SkilledS2000 said:


> I guess you are a licensed mold remediation contractor. When money talks, people get sick in this shoddy trade.
> 
> I'm fine with shoddy repairs in this hackers paradise because of the low pay, but this mold fiasco is going to bring down these nationals hard. 1/2 the properties I walk past stink to high heaven from mold.
> 
> I should start screen printing all of the estimates I see that say "bleach and paint with kilz". It's alarming.



If I see a little mold starting at the top of the basement steps, and a bit here and there I'm not going to run like a little girl, I can clean it with an EPA approved product and repair the damaged paint. I may also control water and moisture issues at the property,I do not have allow it to spread, or call it mold remediation.


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## Cleanupman

Wannabe said:


> 90% of my restoration is mold. Drop me a pm or BPWY or Mtnman or Bradsco or.... can give u my #.


I will contact you during the week I'm getting ready for the NPPG meeting tonight....Should have some news for everyone this week....


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## Wannabe

Just some perspective on mold... Hope a National reads this and actually care:

There are 3 main areas of hazmat remediation and they are: Lead, asbestos and mold. What is the main difference that seperates the remediation effort? All 3 have "generally speaking" the same protocols but remember this:

Mold is A LIVING ORGANISM. It will do nearly anything to live or a self-preservation memory. The hardest thing to accomplish during a mold restoration is to "capture" the spores when you disturb during the removal effort. Recent studies has found that there are apprx 52,000 spores are released per square INCH when disturbed/treated. 

The skill is understanding HOW to capture those released spores. Anyone can spray a mold killing agent but can you capture the spores released when the mold realizes you are trying to kill it?

Mold remediation is a truly facinating field. I would encourage everyone to explore mold restoration as part of your business model. The cost of education and Pollution liability are the biggest cost of startup. 

I have helped many get started in this field and am willing to help explain the "how" to start. 

We have "affiliates" in 4 States that work "with" us in a strategic partnership... Coming to Florida very SOON once the licensing bureau gets processing paperwork.

Motto: "No remediation is better than a bad remediation"


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## hammerhead

We were looking into it but the start up Insurance is holding us back for now $5000 is a good chunk of change. Wen are hoping maybe by this winter we can do it.


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## BPWY

Ohnojim said:


> If I see a little mold starting at the top of the basement steps, and a bit here and there I'm not going to run like a little girl, I can clean it with an EPA approved product and repair the damaged paint. I may also control water and moisture issues at the property,I do not have allow it to spread, or call it mold remediation.






We've been thru this before and I'm tired of arguing with those that aren't willing to learn. 

But you are really placing yourself, your company and your family in danger.


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## Ohnojim

BPWY said:


> We've been thru this before and I'm tired of arguing with those that aren't willing to learn.
> 
> But you are really placing yourself, your company and your family in danger.


It really is a matter of degrees. If I have a loaf of bread with some mold on it, I'm not going to evacuate. I follow all IICRC and EPA recommendations. Can you point to any specific statute that would put me at any risk, I'm always willing to learn. You must have missed my original post in this thread. My state PA has no requirements for mold removal or remediation, only disclosure requirements on the seller. I have both my EPA Lead Safe and IICRC mold certifications, but do not do full scale remediation, because of insurance costs and sketchy ongoing liability issues. I have no disclosure requirements as an agent of a contractor. Mold is everywhere, one of the first things you will learn when you get some education on the subject.


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## BPWY

You undoubtedly have ALL the answers, carry on as you have.


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## Valley

I told my Doctor the other day, If i get cancer just clean it up with some peroxide. He said ok but i still have to charge the full price.And i am not giving you any guarantees either. That is your choice. dont cry to me it it shows up again a week later.


Doesnt that sound stupid ?



Almost as stupid as doing a crap job cleanup on mold just to make a buck. And making the National or regional a lot more than what you are getting paid. As well as putting your company on the hot seat to take the legal action that will come down the road when something happens. We all know crap rolls down hill.


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## Ohnojim

BPWY said:


> You undoubtedly have ALL the answers, carry on as you have.


 So, nothing specific then, go figure. Janitors,maintenance men and maids wipe mold from the walls,floors and ceilings of schools, hospitals, public and private institutional residential facilities and private homes everyday all the time, some direct employees, some under contract. To repeat this fallacy that this somehow automatically creates a liability is silly, and frankly irresponsible. <p>Obviously a contractor can create a liability for himself by being an idiot,expressing or implying some warranty, not exercising reasonable diligence,or acting in a deceptive manner, but that's another story.


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## mtmtnman

Ohnojim said:


> So, nothing specific then, go figure. Janitors,maintenance men and maids wipe mold from the walls,floors and ceilings of schools, hospitals, public and private institutional residential facilities and private homes everyday all the time, some direct employees, some under contract. To repeat this fallacy that this somehow automatically creates a liability is silly, and frankly irresponsible. <p>Obviously a contractor can create a liability for himself by being an idiot,expressing or implying some warranty, not exercising reasonable diligence,or acting in a deceptive manner, but that's another story.




Tell your insurance company your messing with mold and i GUARANTEE YOU that you'll be cancelled............


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## Ohnojim

Valley said:


> I told my Doctor the other day, If i get cancer just clean it up with some peroxide. He said ok but i still have to charge the full price.And i am not giving you any guarantees either. That is your choice. dont cry to me it it shows up again a week later.
> 
> 
> Doesnt that sound stupid ?
> 
> 
> 
> Almost as stupid as doing a crap job cleanup on mold just to make a buck. And making the National or regional a lot more than what you are getting paid. As well as putting your company on the hot seat to take the legal action that will come down the road when something happens. We all know crap rolls down hill.


What it sounds like is a false equivalent.


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## BRADSConst

Ohnojim said:


> So, nothing specific then, go figure. Janitors,maintenance men and maids wipe mold from the walls,floors and ceilings of schools, hospitals, public and private institutional residential facilities and private homes everyday all the time, some direct employees, some under contract. To repeat this fallacy that this somehow automatically creates a liability is silly, and frankly irresponsible. <p>Obviously a contractor can create a liability for himself by being an idiot,expressing or implying some warranty, not exercising reasonable diligence,or acting in a deceptive manner, but that's another story.


I don't know why I let myself get dragged into this thread but here goes. Something specific. The chlorine molecule contained in the bleach is supposedly going to kill the mold right? So how does that happen on a porous surface like wood or drywall when the mold can grow into the pores that are smaller than what the chlorine molecule is? Furthermore, mold, as mentioned previously, is a living organism with the desire to protect itself. When it is attacked by the chlorine, what about all the hundreds of thousands of spores that it releases?

Here is some food for thought. Why do all these "clients" request bleach and Kilz? Why not request a biocide and encapsulant? There are products with a much better permeabilty factor than Kilz. Once upon a time, before I knew better, I actually bid to clean with an antimicrobial biocide. It was kicked back and I was told to bid with bleach at the clients request. I no longer deal with mold on that scale anymore, please reassign the work order. I will however clean a little grout/caulk on a tub during a sales clean. But that work order (paper trail) doesn't say anything about bleaching and kilzing anything.


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## Valley

Ohnojim said:


> What it sounds like is a false equivalent.



Call it what you will. You get the point or you wouldnt have responded.


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## Ohnojim

mtmtnman said:


> Tell your insurance company your messing with mold and i GUARANTEE YOU that you'll be cancelled............



What mold? One day with me and my insurance agent would have a heart attack, and mold would be the least of it. You guys have mold fever here, I'm talking about wiping down a little surface mold in an accepted manner, controlling humidity, and possibly some priming. Preventative Maintenance, Not, the type of jobs I have seen where primer is applied over obviously deep rooted mold growth,decomposed drywall, and wet bleach solution. Like I said it's a matter of degrees. Do you tell your insurance company about everything you do?


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## PropPresPro

Ohnojim said:


> Do you tell your insurance company about everything you do?



Only if I actually want to be covered for what I do.

If I don't tell them, how can they insure me? Or better yet, how can I expect them to insure me?


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## Ohnojim

BRADSConst said:


> I don't know why I let myself get dragged into this thread but here goes. Something specific. The chlorine molecule contained in the bleach is supposedly going to kill the mold right? So how does that happen on a porous surface like wood or drywall when the mold can grow into the pores that are smaller than what the chlorine molecule is? Furthermore, mold, as mentioned previously, is a living organism with the desire to protect itself. When it is attacked by the chlorine, what about all the hundreds of thousands of spores that it releases?
> 
> Here is some food for thought. Why do all these "clients" request bleach and Kilz? Why not request a biocide and encapsulant? There are products with a much better permeabilty factor than Kilz. Once upon a time, before I knew better, I actually bid to clean with an antimicrobial biocide. It was kicked back and I was told to bid with bleach at the clients request. I no longer deal with mold on that scale anymore, please reassign the work order. I will however clean a little grout/caulk on a tub during a sales clean. But that work order (paper trail) doesn't say anything about bleaching and kilzing anything.


I don't use bleach on porous surfaces, and my work orders are not worded that way. They generally state "Broad spectrum fungicide" and a few other things I don't care to disclose. I've done my homework too.


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## Ohnojim

PropPresPro said:


> Only if I actually want to be covered for what I do.
> 
> If I don't tell them, how can they insure me?


Is that a yes or a no? Because if you tell me that is a yes, I will call you a liar.


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## Valley

Ohnojim said:


> What mold? One day with me and my insurance agent would have a heart attack, and mold would be the least of it. You guys have mold fever here, I'm talking about wiping down a little surface mold in an accepted manner, controlling humidity, and possibly some priming. Preventative Maintenance, Not, the type of jobs I have seen where primer is applied over obviously deep rooted mold growth,decomposed drywall, and wet bleach solution. Like I said it's a matter of degrees. Do you tell your insurance company about everything you do?



I dropped my roofing coverage ryder about a year ago. We dont even get on them. Those kind of games are why Insurance premiums are through the roof.Sooner or later it will get you. When your insurance says "sorry,your not covered for that ". Let me know so i can say i told you so. Those kind of actions are why some things in this business are so screwed up.


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## Ohnojim

Valley said:


> I dropped my roofing coverage ryder about a year ago. We dont even get on them. Those kind of games are why Insurance premiums are through the roof.Sooner or later it will get you. When your insurance says "sorry,your not covered for that ". Let me know so i can say i told you so. Those kind of actions are why some things in this business are so screwed up.


It is easy to draw the line between roofing and not roofing, re-roofing and new construction. Cleaning and full blow mold remediation are a little different.


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## PropPresPro

Ohnojim said:


> Is that a yes or a no? Because if you tell me that is a yes, I will call you a liar.


That is a yes! My ins. agent is a very close friend of mine. 

Do I tell him I sometimes drive 80 in a 65? No
Do I tell him I never tie off my ladder or wear a safety harness on a roof? No


But when it comes to wanting to be insured for the services I perform in the course of my job, i tell them or i do not expect them to have my back. 

BTW, don't call me a liar, i'll most likely take it personally. I'm sensitive.


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## Valley

Ohnojim said:


> It is easy to draw the line between roofing and not roofing, re-roofing and new construction. Cleaning and full blow mold remediation are a little different.



No its not, it either is or it isnt.There are no two ways about it.


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## BPWY

Ohnojim said:


> So, nothing specific then, go figure. Janitors,maintenance men and maids wipe mold from the walls,floors and ceilings of schools, hospitals, public and private institutional residential facilities and private homes everyday all the time, some direct employees, some under contract. To repeat this fallacy that this somehow automatically creates a liability is silly, and frankly irresponsible. <p>Obviously a contractor can create a liability for himself by being an idiot,expressing or implying some warranty, not exercising reasonable diligence,or acting in a deceptive manner, but that's another story.






I've gotten my info from Wannabe, I trust him and what he says. 
He says so and so aint the RIGHT way, then it aint the RIGHT way. 
I've known him for a while and he does not BS, he tells it straight up the way it is.
I don't think hes able to BS.


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## PropPresPro

BPWY said:


> I've gotten my info from Wannabe, I trust him and what he says.
> He says so and so aint the RIGHT way, then it aint the RIGHT way.
> I've known him for a while and he does not BS, he tells it straight up the way it is.
> I don't think hes able to BS.


And another thing about Wannabe:

No matter who you are or where you're from, he's willing to take some of the valuable time out of his day to talk to you, personally if need be, and pass on some of the knowledge he's acquired whether it be in the insurance industry, P&P or remediation/restoration field.


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## Gypsos

PropPresPro said:


> And another thing about Wannabe:
> 
> No matter who you are or where you're from, he's willing to take some of the valuable time out of his day to talk to you, personally if need be, and pass on some of the knowledge he's acquired whether it be in the insurance industry, P&P or remediation/restoration field.


Yep.


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## Ohnojim

*Thanks for all the warnings*

Ultimately, I guess we all have to determine acceptable risk for ourselves. In reality I do turn down all real mold jobs, and advise the broker to remove the lockbox, and have visitors sign a waiver, just like I'm supposed to. However, I also believe there are times when you kill it before it grows.


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## thanohano44

Ohnojim said:


> I don't use bleach on porous surfaces, and my work orders are not worded that way. They generally state "Broad spectrum fungicide" and a few other things I don't care to disclose. I've done my homework too.


Do you sand down and spread the porous mold before you apply Kilz or your fancy algicide to it? I mean that is what the instructions say.


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## Ohnojim

thanohano44 said:


> Do you sand down and spread the porous mold before you apply Kilz or your fancy algicide to it? I mean that is what the instructions say.


Yeah, right after I am done with the hair dryer and the leaf blower.


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## STARBABY

thanohano44 said:


> Do you sand down and spread the porous mold before you apply Kilz or your fancy algicide to it? I mean that is what the instructions say.


:thumbup:


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## PropPresPro

thanohano44 said:


> Do you sand down and spread the porous mold before you apply Kilz or your fancy algicide to it? I mean that is what the instructions say.


Of course!
If the book says bend over, you look for the nearest stump and assume the position!:icon_rolleyes:


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## BamaPPC

If you are going to treat mold the way the nationals and regionals want you too (wipe with bleach, paint with Kilz), then I suggest you use some verbiage in your bids and or invoices such as this;

**Bidding to treat area of mold with bleach and/or a mold control product. This method of treatment does not guarantee there will be no regrowth of mold. This method of treatment should in no way be considered
mold abatement, removal, or prevention. Should _whomever _and/or the client choose this method of mold treatment, _whomever_ and the client assume all responsibility for any claims, of any kind, due to the presence of mold and also agree _My Company_. will not be held liable for any claims that may arise due to the presence of mold.**

And something like this in your notepad - 

**Bidding to remove moldy sheetrock. Bid is for removal of affected sheetrock only. No replacement included. This should in no way be considered mold abatement, removal, or prevention. Should _whomever_ and/or the client choose this method of mold treatment, _whomever_ and the client assume all responsibility for any claims, of any kind, because of the presence of mold and also agree _My Company_. will not be held 
liable for any claims that may arise due to the presence of mold.**

And lastly;

No bid to treat mold. Mold has progressed to a level that is beyond our scope to address. The usual practice of treat with bleach and paint over will not suffice. Mold has grown from behind wall/ceiling onto the surface. This type of mold treatment is beyond our scope.

Know when to say, No. If your are not trained and/or certified as a mold abatement contractor. Be very careful. If it's just the mold that is from humidity on the surfaces of the kitchen cabinets, you might be OK. If its mold from a roof leak, flood, burst water pipes...I walk away. There is more mold than you can see. Refuse to put yourself at risk.


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## Ohnojim

BamaPPC said:


> If you are going to treat mold the way the nationals and regionals want you too (wipe with bleach, paint with Kilz), then I suggest you use some verbiage in your bids and or invoices such as this;
> 
> **Bidding to treat area of mold with bleach and/or a mold control product. This method of treatment does not guarantee there will be no regrowth of mold. This method of treatment should in no way be considered
> mold abatement, removal, or prevention. Should _whomever _and/or the client choose this method of mold treatment, _whomever_ and the client assume all responsibility for any claims, of any kind, due to the presence of mold and also agree _My Company_. will not be held liable for any claims that may arise due to the presence of mold.**
> 
> And something like this in your notepad -
> 
> **Bidding to remove moldy sheetrock. Bid is for removal of affected sheetrock only. No replacement included. This should in no way be considered mold abatement, removal, or prevention. Should _whomever_ and/or the client choose this method of mold treatment, _whomever_ and the client assume all responsibility for any claims, of any kind, because of the presence of mold and also agree _My Company_. will not be held
> liable for any claims that may arise due to the presence of mold.**
> 
> And lastly;
> 
> No bid to treat mold. Mold has progressed to a level that is beyond our scope to address. The usual practice of treat with bleach and paint over will not suffice. Mold has grown from behind wall/ceiling onto the surface. This type of mold treatment is beyond our scope.
> 
> Know when to say, No. If your are not trained and/or certified as a mold abatement contractor. Be very careful. If it's just the mold that is from humidity on the surfaces of the kitchen cabinets, you might be OK. If its mold from a roof leak, flood, burst water pipes...I walk away. There is more mold than you can see. Refuse to put yourself at risk.



I don't do anything that is that bad, or a general condition throughout the building. the point I'm trying to make, obviously with no success here, with this beaten down, jaded, negative group is, there is a point where cleaning and priming is effective, or just cleaning for that matter. Today I just returned to a property that I did some cleaning of minor mold,fogged, primed, replaced missing downspouts, and installed a dehumidifier. In about 25 days the humidity in the space is down to 60% from 90%, moisture levels in the drywall and wood are also down considerably, no new growth is evident, and the smell has greatly improved. If this were left unchecked, there is little doubt this would not be the case. I can't find a single case in my state where a contractor has been held liable for mold. I have found cases where realtors have had judgments entered against them for not disclosing the issue.


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## SkilledS2000

I just copied and pasted what a "vendor" wanted to do to fix the mold. It really blows me away that this vendor has the B**** to actually write up a mold remediation bid this way. It goes to show you how pathetic the industry is. I have tons of the same verbage all over the place. 

Leak Size/Description: The condition is causing further damage to the property Water Damage Description: damage to ceilings and walls from roof leak Area size of leak: XXXXX Method of Treatment: Clean affected area with bleach solution and prime with kilz Type of damage being caused: damage to wood work and ceilings Source/Cause: Roof Leak


Come on MAN! 

Ohio, is this ok with you? Just wondering. 

BTW, the square footage is over 200 and less than 1000. I kept it out just in case some how, some way it gets traced back.


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## Ohnojim

SkilledS2000 said:


> I just copied and pasted what a "vendor" wanted to do to fix the mold. It really blows me away that this vendor has the B**** to actually write up a mold remediation bid this way. It goes to show you how pathetic the industry is. I have tons of the same verbage all over the place.
> 
> Leak Size/Description: The condition is causing further damage to the property Water Damage Description: damage to ceilings and walls from roof leak Area size of leak: XXXXX Method of Treatment: Clean affected area with bleach solution and prime with kilz Type of damage being caused: damage to wood work and ceilings Source/Cause: Roof Leak
> 
> 
> Come on MAN!
> 
> Ohio, is this ok with you? Just wondering.
> 
> BTW, the square footage is over 200 and less than 1000. I kept it out just in case some how, some way it gets traced back.


You See, this is where your thinking is flawed, using the extreme wost example, as an example is always going to lead to erroneous conclusions. As a matter of course, people will push techniques to the point where they are no longer effective, see "Peter Principle", it's not just for people. This does not mean the technique is flawed, just it's chosen application.


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## PropertyWerX LTD.

*Bleach and Kilz*

Doesn't matter what company you work for, this is the FIRST method of treatment! Not abatement!!! Bleach and Kilz somewhat prevents the growth, it does NOT kill mold, nor is it a remedy but any sort. 

We work for Altisource, MCS, and Safeguard(yea, i know) all these companies require this first step to prevent growth while they hire a professional remediation contractor. 

Just my 2 cents, not to mention decent money for very little work.


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## mtmtnman

PropertyWerX said:


> Doesn't matter what company you work for, this is the FIRST method of treatment! Not abatement!!! Bleach and Kilz somewhat prevents the growth, it does NOT kill mold, nor is it a remedy but any sort.
> 
> We work for Altisource, MCS, and Safeguard(yea, i know) all these companies require this first step to prevent growth while they hire a professional remediation contractor.
> 
> Just my 2 cents, not to mention decent money for very little work.



And when it has to be properly remediated due to failed air quality test it cost's 2-3X as much as it's a BITCH to get Kilz off of stuff to get to the problem. Your wrong in your statement "it's the 1st method of treatment" You should in fact state it's the servicing companies half assed way of covering things up and collecting money. Of all the DIRECT work i have done for banks never ONCE have i been requested to bleach and kilz. This is a process made up by MFS companies and sold to some idiot in a cubicle at a bank as a cure all......


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## PropertyWerX LTD.

mtmtnman said:


> And when it has to be properly remediated due to failed air quality test it cost's 2-3X as much as it's a BITCH to get Kilz off of stuff to get to the problem. Your wrong in your statement "it's the 1st method of treatment" You should in fact state it's the servicing companies half assed way of covering things up and collecting money. Of all the DIRECT work i have done for banks never ONCE have i been requested to bleach and kilz. This is a process made up by MFS companies and sold to some idiot in a cubicle at a bank as a cure all......


That is their problem then. I am not a Mold Remediation contractor and they know this. Like I said this is a treatment, not a remedy! Perfectly legal in the State of Ohio. Is it right, NO! But unfortunately, it's either complete the work order or lose my rights as primary vendor. That's what I am faced with. 

Not going to sit here an argue with other vendors on the morals of the subject. Just stating what's required of my clients.


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## hammerhead

PropertyWerX said:


> That is their problem then. I am not a Mold Remediation contractor and they know this. Like I said this is a treatment, not a remedy! Perfectly legal in the State of Ohio. Is it right, NO! But unfortunately, it's either complete the work order or lose my rights as primary vendor. That's what I am faced with.
> 
> Not going to sit here an argue with other vendors on the morals of the subject. Just stating what's required of my clients.


Go ahead and ask your insurance agent then if you are covered for mold work. Then watch his facial expression. For me it was an additional $4800 ryder to my policy.


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## GTX63

You do understand that if Mary and John Newlywed and their baby move into the house and get sick 90 days later, and an AQT confirms high levels of mold, it won't matter what you told them. They will file a claim on your policy, or you personally if you didn't get their house insurance. Pimply Pete at the company that hired you has long quit and is now selling timeshares. If the Client never had anymore work done since the "First" treatment, liability runs right back and lays down at your feet.


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## Ohnojim

GTX63 said:


> You do understand that if Mary and John Newlywed and their baby move into the house and get sick 90 days later, and an AQT confirms high levels of mold, it won't matter what you told them. They will file a claim on your policy, or you personally if you didn't get their house insurance. Pimply Pete at the company that hired you has long quit and is now selling timeshares. If the Client never had anymore work done since the "First" treatment, liability runs right back and lays down at your feet.


In fact the liability in most cases does not fall to a contractor who cleaned up some mold and painted the effected area and made no claims as to it's effectiveness or acted in a deceptive manner. Where do you guys get this stuff? Obviously you have been sold a bill of goods by someone. The liability would rest with the seller, and his liability in most cases and in most jurisdictions is limited to disclosure. Can you give an example of a contractor that has been found liable for cleaning up some mold, and paining the effected area, without any deception involved, because everything except that is BS. Every time you clean a surface, almost without exception in an unheated, non climate controlled, indoor environment, you are disturbing, cleaning or killing mold. You guys are taking some hypothetical worst case and running with it, get a grip. That being said, you do have to use your head, I have no problem cleaning and treating a little mold, and priming the area to close the pores and prevent further growth. But, when it is a general condition or deep rooted you have to know when to walk away. It really is a matter of degrees.


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## garylaps

MOLD/"DISCOLORATION" is scary as h3ll. You can go for the easy money now but a good business plan would be to disband your business every other year and have no personal traceable assets. Ask "WANNABE" he seems to have a grasp on this line of responsibility. I'd rather cut grass for $25.00 an acre than "bleach and Kilz" ...


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## Wannabe

Ohnojim,

I suggest more research. I would LOVE to post the actual Ins Co adjustment requests to determine liability for the mold and the "proper-improper" treatment. Yes those requests NAME the P&P contractor who did the bleach/cover process. Subrogation is a common term used in our circles--in this the same as a lawsuit? NO..why have a lawsuit when the Service Company can turn the claim for subrogation on Your policy since they are additional insureds? 

Have there been lawsuits by buyers against the banks/Service Companies and the contractors? You betchya. 99% are settled with gag orders...at least the ones where we have been retained for the plaintiffs attorneys. 

The hard truth is: Your statement is wrong and I suggest everyone get professional advice and not from a forum


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## BPWY

Wannabe he still won't listen.
Your comments run counter to already preconceived ideas.


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## Ohnojim

Everything after that is BS.


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## mtmtnman

Wannabe said:


> Ohnojim,
> 
> I suggest more research. I would LOVE to post the actual Ins Co adjustment requests to determine liability for the mold and the "proper-improper" treatment. Yes those requests NAME the P&P contractor who did the bleach/cover process. Subrogation is a common term used in our circles--in this the same as a lawsuit? NO..why have a lawsuit when the Service Company can turn the claim for subrogation on Your policy since they are additional insureds?
> 
> Have there been lawsuits by buyers against the banks/Service Companies and the contractors? You betchya. 99% are settled with gag orders...at least the ones where we have been retained for the plaintiffs attorneys.
> 
> The hard truth is: Your statement is wrong and I suggest everyone get professional advice and not from a forum



110% correct Wannabe. Also here is what the insurance co's use to limit coverage. If your messing with mold and don't have Polution Liability your playing with fire!!!

_ISO has promulgated four endorsements that exclude or severely limit the coverage for injury or damage caused by mold. Two are intended for use with the commercial general liability policy and two are designed for the Owners & Contractors Protective Liability (OCP) policy form._
_Both the CG 21 67 (used with the CGL) and the CG 31 31 (for the OCP) entitled “Fungi or Bacteria Exclusion” completely exclude coverage for bodily injury or property damage as follows “…which would not have occurred, in whole or in part, but for the actual, alleged or threatened inhalation of, ingestion of, contact with, exposure to, existence of, or presence of, any ‘fungi’ or bacteria on or within a building or structure, including its contents, regardless of whether any other cause, event, material or product contributed concurrently or in any sequence to such injury or damage.” The policy goes on to exclude any cost to test for, monitor or clean up such fungi or bacteria._
_Two other endorsements severely limit the amount of coverage available for mold or fungi damage. Both the CG 24 25 (used with the CGL) and the CG 31 32 (attached to the OCP) are titled “Limited Fungi or Bacteria Coverage.” These endorsements specify an annual aggregate limit of coverage available for claims resulting from mold or fungi. Limits are usually minimal ranging between $10,000 and $100,000 in the aggregate._
_Underwriters most often use the total fungi or bacteria exclusions to avoid any exposure from mold claims. If the underwriter cannot be convinced to remove the total mold exclusion, negotiate the limited form; at least the insured will be granted some coverage._


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