# Legality question - chargebacks



## FearlessTeapot (Oct 12, 2012)

Is there some sort of law that limits the time frame you can be charged back on a job? We just got an $1100 chargeback from 8 months ago. We regularly get them from a year or more. Of course, the National states that there is no limit to how far back they can go, but has anyone else ever found a law stating otherwise?


----------



## Blue Granite PPs (Dec 20, 2012)

In my opinion the whole Chargeback issue MAY NOT legal. For example, if provide a services for A, B and C but fail to do D does that MEAN you should forfiet the ENTIRE AMOUNT of services completed for failing to provide service for D? Additionally, if you fail to do a PP on HOUSE A-meaning you don't begin services, should you be charged back $X for NOT starting the Job? Probably need an attorney to weigh in on this matter.


----------



## FearlessTeapot (Oct 12, 2012)

Something I don't really understand--

Job A is completed. Job A is paid.

8 months later, they say something is wrong with job A. Since it has already been paid, we will take money from your invoices for Jobs B, C, and D.

That doesn't seem legal. Also, the original question: Do they really have 8 months - 2 years to come after the money? We have literally been charged back grasscut fees from nearly 2 years ago becasue they say an inspector went back way back then and found a spot that wasn't mowed. Isn't there some sort of time limitation? I can't recoup the money from the crew who did it, he doesn't work for us anymore.


----------



## 68W30 (Sep 8, 2012)

FearlessTeapot said:


> Something I don't really understand--
> 
> Job A is completed. Job A is paid.
> 
> ...



NOT that its not hard Enough to get paid For Job A to begin with 

we have 48 to 72 hours to turn the job in and invoice and they have years to get the money back HMMMMMM no that seems fine And if you guys have a problem your being crybabies :whistling2:

lets see when those AGGGGGGGGED jobs get charged back :confused1:

Well Gosh and Golly GEE between Thanksgiving and the End of January when is our business the slowest ? same time! 

Could it be a bonus plan here for the RVMs get us 200 we will give you 20


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Things like this is why rather than try to ramp up P&P during the winter to supplement my lawn care business I have chosen to take a part time day job. 


I'm more likely to get paid for work completed.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Chargebacks are illegal and falls under YOUR State Statues. You will need to consult an attorney. 

Chargebacks? The Nationals now say "up to 7 years" after the work completed. 

There is also a "co-mingling" of funds issue with Federal Funds if they are government insured loans...ie...robbing peter to pay paul issue. Legally they (Service Company) need to invoice YOU for the chargeback from Property A instead of "automatically" deducting from Property Z. According to legal representation we were told that technically a contractor should have a signed contract on Each and Every property you work on....not just a work order sent out on the email.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Wannabe said:


> According to legal representation we were told that technically a contractor should have a signed contract on Each and Every property you work on....not just a work order sent out on the email.





Yeah, that'll never happen.


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

FearlessTeapot said:


> Something I don't really understand--
> 
> Job A is completed. Job A is paid.
> 
> ...


You need to take them to court


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

BPWY said:


> Yeah, that'll never happen.


 
Bet if it does a lot of this BS would stop


----------



## 68W30 (Sep 8, 2012)

Cleanupman said:


> You need to take them to court



Enter the NPPG 

Adding some bite to the old dogs bark 

Now as long as we dont infight and we stand TOUGH AND HARD this will work 

gotta run someone needs to make the fries and get on the drive up window


----------



## FearlessTeapot (Oct 12, 2012)

Just got two more chargebacks. One for a grasscut from 08/2011, another a debris removal from 10/2011. 

The problem I have is that we have several people employed off the work from this company. All we can do is save them in case we ever stop working for this company and bring them all to a lawyer at once. I just wish I could find a law or something that says this is wrong, so that i could 'anonymously' tip someone to get the process changed.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Read your contract. Many of them contain clauses referring to contractor liability; they usually avoid the term "Chargeback". Many of them will also tell you that it is their company policy not to reveal specifics, such as the information of the contractor that "redid" your work. The 2 year delay on the grass cut chargeback is the liability of whatever company failed to process their qc in a timely manner. I know this. Picture the faces in the courtroom when they hear Company A garnished $27.50 from your invoice for a poorly done grass cut completed in spring of 2011.


----------



## 68W30 (Sep 8, 2012)

by " accepting " the work order , arent we in truth signing a contract of sorts when we accept / decline a WO i bet if you drill in deep enough to newer contracts it will be there or some mumbo jumbo that makes it binding


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

FearlessTeapot said:


> Just got two more chargebacks. One for a grasscut from 08/2011, another a debris removal from 10/2011.
> 
> The problem I have is that we have several people employed off the work from this company. All we can do is save them in case we ever stop working for this company and bring them all to a lawyer at once. I just wish I could find a law or something that says this is wrong, so that i could 'anonymously' tip someone to get the process changed.


You need to name the company and maybe someone here can give you a little more specific information. It is hard having guys that depend on one client for their income but taking a boning and being told to like it is pretty hard only to justify keeping guys working.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

68W30 said:


> by " accepting " the work order , arent we in truth signing a contract of sorts when we accept / decline a WO i bet if you drill in deep enough to newer contracts it will be there or some mumbo jumbo that makes it binding


If I called your craigslist ad and told you I would pay you $500 to paint my chicken coop, what are the oral terms? Several of the Nationals have language stating that if any legal disputes should arise, a hearing can only be held in the county/state of the client, ie Safeguard is in Ohio. Been there done that too, and no, I didn't drive to Cleveland.


----------



## FearlessTeapot (Oct 12, 2012)

Corelogic Field Services.


----------



## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

The lawsuits are happening *NOW* and have happened in the *PAST*. The problem is they are normally settled before it actually goes to court and then a *Gag Order *is issued. 

YEP been there and YEP doing that. Not alway my first rodeo. Just a pis*ed off cowboy!


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

FearlessTeapot said:


> Corelogic Field Services.





Oh wow, there will be one or two guys here that will want to know this.


----------



## nurumkin (Sep 28, 2012)

*re*

the problem is that the nationals know that no one is going to really do anything about it. If you do $100k a year in work for company X and they charge you back $3k unfairly are you going to sue them for it. Ya you will probably get your $3k but you can kiss the 100k next year goodbye. So does it suck? yes but what can you do other then just call it a cost of doing business.


----------



## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

nurumkin said:


> the problem is that the nationals know that no one is going to really do anything about it. If you do $100k a year in work for company X and they charge you back $3k unfairly are you going to sue them for it. Ya you will probably get your $3k but you can kiss the 100k next year goodbye. So does it suck? yes but what can you do other then just call it a cost of doing business.


Mark up your bids to cover the projected invoice cuts and charge backs.


----------



## Gypsos (Apr 30, 2012)

thanohano44 said:


> Mark up your bids to cover the projected invoice cuts and charge backs.


This is exactly what I do. Charge me $100 and I will mark up my next 10 bids by $25. I will get my $100 back and then some.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

I hear that buying an alley works well for getting even.


----------



## STARBABY (Apr 12, 2012)

thanohano44 said:


> Mark up your bids to cover the projected invoice cuts and charge backs.


 
how I used to handle it! but with cost estimator, bid reducing theyb are getting around it!


----------



## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

STARBABY said:


> how I used to handle it! but with cost estimator, bid reducing theyb are getting around it!


Lol there goes the neighborhood. Sucks man.


----------



## FearlessTeapot (Oct 12, 2012)

Precisely. CL uses Repairbase, we "bid" things via this website. Basically, we input the dimensions of whatever it is, grass height/lotsize, pool dimensions, etc. We then hit calculate, and it spits our "bid" out to us. We are required to use this website for our bidding, and frequently, "HUD modified" whatever the bid was to something lower anyway. It's becoming tighter and tighter, and the only option we have is to either make noise and lose all of our work, or accept it. We are simply saving up all of the questionable deductions that come through. If we stop working for them, we can then go after the money, I suppose. No other realistic options.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

It is a hard spot to be in, but your clock is ticking. It is a lot more difficult for you to recoup your money after 6 months than it is for them. I also considered the loss in revenue if I chose to make a stand over the shakedowns they gave me, but each time I fired one of these crooked Nationals, the workload dropped a heck of a lot more than my monthly gross. I mean to say it is human nature to be worried about tomorrow; what most of us forget is that we won't just stand still and let things go down the toilet. You learn to adapt and grow and wonder later why you didn't act sooner.


----------



## thinkingimgettingscrewed (Oct 7, 2015)

Ok, started a mowing buiness last yr and this year we started doing mowing jobs for property preservation, it's not a big company basically they get the trash out mows preservation but we only do the mow part. When we first started with this company things was good, she told us that base pay started out at 25 per cut anyrhing after that was to be bid, and we've done some total spring yard cleanups and yard trash removal. And she stated that she paid weekely. We do not have a contract with this lady she sends us the addresses threw text or email we go and mow take the pictures etc send them in as we go, first 30 days we was getting paid on time weekly, now she goes every 2 weeks or sometimes 3 weeks, she only pays us 25 bucks a pop for each yard and some of these places are real **** holes or imaculant yards, still 25 bucks. Every cleanup we have done so far not once have we seen a invoice, she tells us it should pay good and then we never see what we've been paid, always an excuse, then she talks about getting these yards done we aren't talking 10 a day we r talking 34, like last week her list was sent out in 28th of Sept we didn't receive it until that following Friday, it rained all week and weekend we don't do weekends but she makes it impossible for us not have to do it. Then she talks if she doesn't get the mows done by today she is afraid they will charge us back! I'm not sure if that is legal technically there's no contract, we figured that most bigger company's are paying 45 for 100x100 we get 25 we figured she has robbed us of about 7500 dollars not including these cleanup and tree removal foe these properties which hubby use to do with another lawn company so he knows what it is for a normal charge, I thought we was suppose to bid on yard cleanups not her. Help.


----------



## madxtreme01 (Mar 5, 2015)

thinkingimgettingscrewed said:


> Ok, started a mowing buiness last yr and this year we started doing mowing jobs for property preservation, it's not a big company basically they get the trash out mows preservation but we only do the mow part. When we first started with this company things was good, she told us that base pay started out at 25 per cut anyrhing after that was to be bid, and we've done some total spring yard cleanups and yard trash removal. And she stated that she paid weekely. We do not have a contract with this lady she sends us the addresses threw text or email we go and mow take the pictures etc send them in as we go, first 30 days we was getting paid on time weekly, now she goes every 2 weeks or sometimes 3 weeks, she only pays us 25 bucks a pop for each yard and some of these places are real **** holes or imaculant yards, still 25 bucks. Every cleanup we have done so far not once have we seen a invoice, she tells us it should pay good and then we never see what we've been paid, always an excuse, then she talks about getting these yards done we aren't talking 10 a day we r talking 34, like last week her list was sent out in 28th of Sept we didn't receive it until that following Friday, it rained all week and weekend we don't do weekends but she makes it impossible for us not have to do it. Then she talks if she doesn't get the mows done by today she is afraid they will charge us back! I'm not sure if that is legal technically there's no contract, we figured that most bigger company's are paying 45 for 100x100 we get 25 we figured she has robbed us of about 7500 dollars not including these cleanup and tree removal foe these properties which hubby use to do with another lawn company so he knows what it is for a normal charge, I thought we was suppose to bid on yard cleanups not her. Help.



I would stop working for this company immediately. A contractor of mine was doing something similar with another person to pick up some additional volume that I couldn't provide and ended up getting screwed royally. The problem is without getting a work order, you don't know what else is on the work order that they are requesting and you better believe that when it's not done you're the one they are going to try and chargeback even though all you knew was to cut the grass. There is no national out there that wants a full cleanup on every property and wants it BATF (Bid after the fact). In this industry it is very common to bid anything after 1 acre or over 1ft tall, but to say your getting a $25 flat fee across the board could be possible, but no national will approve $100/acre because that's your fee. They all have a fee schedule and unless you are in a remote area or the properties you are maintaining are out of the scope of their price list, then it must be bid for an approval to be completed at a later date. As far as I know only Wells Fargo allows BATF work and not on all properties. On a different note, if your getting a list and being told ok, do these today, and tomorrow getting a different list for that day, you are more on the borderline of being an employee. See all orders have a due date and she should be giving you the work orders daily as they come in so you can create efficient routes on your own so your not going to the same areas daily. Most grass cuts from most nationals have a 5-7 window. Some clients are 72 hours, but this isn't the norm unless there is a pending or existing violation. I would let them know that you will not be completing anymore work for them until you receive an itemized invoice and pay up remaining monies owed or you will be contacting a lawyer as you have saved every email and text message. Worst case scenario you get nothing, but don't loose anything else, or best case she starts treating you the way you deserve. My contractor was working for a sub of a regional that didn't have the equipment to cut lawns other than a little push mower, so he figured he would do everything but the grass cuts and my contractor could do the rest, at the end of the day every job was cut for whatever reason, and the company they were working for (the sub, not my contractor) was charging an invoicing fee every cycle and another fee of $5 for each picture that was missing, and then the sub told my contractor to cut all HOA lawns and they never got paid either because they shouldn't be maintained by us. In the end they settled on a final amount just to let it all go away without lawyers, but it ended up in waiting 4 months and probably about half of what was owed.


----------



## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*It is important that you have your own rating*

system for these companies, based on your time,your costs and the pain in the a$$ factor. Make your own rules before you ever start to lose,and stick to them. You are self employed,if the pay isn't there or there is too much stress to be happy. Just stop it! There are hundreds of companies out there peddling low-ball work, you do not need them. 

Say it with me. YOU DO NOT NEED THEM, YOU DO NOT NEED THEM, YOU DO NOT NEED THEM. 

The very nature of sub contracting is somewhat adversarial to begin with, there will always be some issues, but you can not go to work wondering if you will be payed,what you will be paid or when you will be payed. Just stop it!

They don't know whether to $h!t or go blind when you send THEM their monthly scorecard.


----------



## mike2153 (Dec 11, 2012)

Ohnojim said:


> system for these companies, based on your time,your costs and the pain in the a$$ factor. Make your own rules before you ever start to lose,and stick to them. You are self employed,if the pay isn't there or there is too much stress to be happy. Just stop it! There are hundreds of companies out there peddling low-ball work, you do not need them.
> 
> Say it with me. YOU DO NOT NEED THEM, YOU DO NOT NEED THEM, YOU DO NOT NEED THEM.
> 
> ...


I find this funny as i just sent you know who theres since they deducted 5 bucks from each order for time stamps didn't care was the point my response well ill be fired tomorrow I'm ok with that

"you are sending me orders for 0 dollars please take the $5 dollars off them also so i can send you a check at the end of the month. The only thing i require is 715 photos time stamped of the review process. Please include 17 different photo angles of the keyboard. 10 before pictures for each letter typed 10 during photos while typing, and 10 after photos. Please also include 23 pictures of the front of the building 17 photos of the side of the building, 26 photos of your cleans toilets, 47 dated air fresheners one at each station. Also please include 214 before 214 during 214 after photos of garbage removal. Please also included 64 photos of each truck leaving full. Thanks for your great ethics"

screwem


----------



## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I used my phone one time for photos for an entire routine cycle*

about 50 re-cuts 15 or so maids, and a few oddball orders. For some reason the stamp setting got changed, they(AMS) cut $5 an order, and actually did charge $5 on the no charge orders, that's what really got me. I could have probably got them to let it slide if I went over the coordinators head, but I ate it. As with a lot of phones the file name is actually the network time and date,far more verifiable than a date you set yourself on your camera, so they could have let it go.

One of the few times I actually cheated a company was the next cycle when I took two cameras one with next cycles date and one with the correct date, I then took myself a nice paid vacation the next week. If you just quit, you can say screw'em,but you won't be around to really screw'em.


----------



## mike2153 (Dec 11, 2012)

Ohnojim said:


> about 50 re-cuts 15 or so maids, and a few oddball orders. For some reason the stamp setting got changed, they(AMS) cut $5 an order, and actually did charge $5 on the no charge orders, that's what really got me. I could have probably got them to let it slide if I went over the coordinators head, but I ate it. As with a lot of phones the file name is actually the network time and date,far more verifiable than a date you set yourself on your camera, so they could have let it go.
> 
> One of the few times I actually cheated a company was the next cycle when I took two cameras one with next cycles date and one with the correct date, I then took myself a nice paid vacation the next week. If you just quit, you can say screw'em,but you won't be around to really screw'em.


You know what i mean lol and hell we don't even cheat them, were doing initials but they didn't like to pay the correct amount have about 200 lawns and 100 maids a month no money in it initials yea but not grasses. Someone must have been doing the fake photos cause its all 1 plus foot high some like Reading houses easy who cares in out 5 mins but the acre ones 

And I'm not doing a inspection for zip zero will never happen


----------

