# Contractors vs Not



## MNanny (May 23, 2013)

It seems like many of the posts lately about bid approval, cost and work required/performed have to do with the status of the vendor. A licensed, insured and experienced contractor with taxes to pay needs a certain dollar amount to complete a job. A craigslist hack will need a lot less. A reputable company that carries insurance but is not licensed or is a one man show comes in the middle. So, my question is this: how do you become a vendor without meeting basic general contractor requirements? Nationals claim all of their vendors are fully compliant contractors, but we all know they aren't. We are being underbid because other vendors have less expenses and less overhead. Why and how do they become vendors that bid against us? By national and government rules these low ballers shouldn't even be vendors, let alone be bidding on jobs. Do they start out approved as grass only then move on to everything else? I know I am rambling on, but this question has been bugging me for months if not years.


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

this is the system that the powers to be set up...


----------



## Gypsos (Apr 30, 2012)

You do not have to be a GC in my state to do this type of work. I am not a GC and I do it legally. 

The trick is that I only do work I can legally perform without a license. And there is a lot that I can do without a specialty license or a contractors license. 

The issue is when a company tries to convince or bully you into doing what is not legal for you to do. If you do it then you are working without the proper credentials and insurance and in Florida that can earn you a free orange jumpsuit and a free place to stay for a few years. 

My background before this is commercial construction management so I know how to bid a job to make sure all the expenses are covered and I make a profit. 

As of late it has become more and more difficult to get profitable bids approved. I had a guy low ball me about a week ago. I wonder if he knows he left over $5,000 on the table. I wish I could set him down and explain how he is hurting all of us. 

There is a contractor a couple of towns over who has stated he does not care how much $$ he leaves on the table because he is going to make it up on volume when he drives all of us out of business. He has five crews running hard and fast and will take any work tossed his way.

These guys are not businessmen. They simply have a job and are happy to be able to pay the bills. While the work ethic can be applauded they are still in way over their heads and will most likely loose more when the low balling catches up with them than if they had never started doing this type of work.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

MNanny said:


> Why and how do they become vendors that bid against us? By national and government rules these low ballers shouldn't even be vendors, let alone be bidding on jobs. Do they start out approved as grass only then move on to everything else?


Notice how many threads are about new regional inquires? "Hey, has anyone heard of Cornhole Preservation and what do they pay?" There is a new one popping up all the time. Same with contractors. Yes, some are just grass cutters but they all start up with big ideas and they don't last. The guy cutting the legs out from your bid won't be around in 60 days, but there will be five more just like him. Some companies start them out on probationary periods so they skirt all the insurance and cert requirements.


----------



## foreverlawn (Jul 29, 2012)

Gypsos said:


> You do not have to be a GC in my state to do this type of work. I am not a GC and I do it legally.
> 
> The trick is that I only do work I can legally perform without a license. And there is a lot that I can do without a specialty license or a contractors license.
> 
> ...


What are of Florida do you cover?


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Notice how many threads are about new regional inquires? "Hey, has anyone heard of Cornhole Preservation and what do they pay?" There is a new one popping up all the time. Same with contractors. Yes, some are just grass cutters but they all start up with big ideas and they don't last. The guy cutting the legs out from your bid won't be around in 60 days, but there will be five more just like him. Some companies start them out on probationary periods so they skirt all the insurance and cert requirements.


Industry MO....every time contracts change hands.....


----------



## JFMURFY (Sep 16, 2012)

The FS industry uses the word "Contractor" ...but it it is not used traditional sense of what one would normally consider a "construction contractor". I've never seen in the public or private construction market where clients name their own price for a contractors performance or cut an independant bid because HUD/FHA says so. Ya realy need a contracts professional to deal with these outfits be it Regioal or National.


----------



## Gypsos (Apr 30, 2012)

foreverlawn said:


> What are of Florida do you cover?


West Volusia County for the most part. We do venture into Seminole and Orange counties for certain clients because they pay drive time.


----------



## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

Had a client tell me that they did not consider this a holiday weekend with the exception of Monday. So they expected all our work orders complete even if it meant working Sunday.
Sorry we are independent contractors which means we make our own hours. If that is the case then I will have to bill for health insurance and over time since you will now be dictating my hours which classifies me as an employee.


----------



## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

JFMURFY said:


> The FS industry uses the word "Contractor" ...but it it is not used traditional sense of what one would normally consider a "construction contractor". I've never seen in the public or private construction market where clients name their own price for a contractors performance or cut an independant bid because HUD/FHA says so. Ya realy need a contracts professional to deal with these outfits be it Regioal or National.


HUD/FHA do not cut the bids....
that is strictly with the go between....SGP is under indictment for RICO violations right now...50 page complaint t the court....


----------



## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

I am licensed, insured, and qualified to legally work in my area. local laws state any job under $10K can be done by any licensed contractor without the need for a GC license. So, you could say I'm one of those "middle" type contractors. I have 8 employees. I pay my taxes and WC insurance and do everything legally. I am not qualified to replace an entire roof, house full of carpet, large amounts of sheetrock, or any type of mold remediation.

I draw the line when it comes to major roof repairs (roof structure damage) and other rehab. We turn down anything other than surface mold. (Humidity related mold on wood surfaces). If the mold is coming from behind the sheetrock, we don't touch it. This has caused us some problems with SG. They want to try and bully me into taking the work that we either can't handle because of skill level or can't handle because of legal reasons. But, so far I've stood my ground. 

Only time will tell if it costs me other work.

I've been told that I need to get "third party" bids. The thing they don't understand is, I've already worn out every decent contractor in my area. Over the last five years I've had many many contractors go to properties and give me third party bids. The amounts were never approved. After about 50 bids with no work, the third parties quit taking my calls. They have better things to do than to jump through hoops for nothing. Work order time lines are around 48 hours. By the time I get to the property and see what's going on, the contractor I call has about 12 - 24 hours to go to the property and get me a bid. Try calling a working contractor on Thursday at 4PM and tell him you need a bid by 2PM Friday. Yep, he laughs at you. I've heard so many times...Can't help you. Best I could do is look at it Tuesday. Call SG, "It'll be Tuesday before I can get a bid." - "We'll re-assign". So I just quit trying.

Damn, there I go rambling again.


----------



## Gypsos (Apr 30, 2012)

brm1109 said:


> Had a client tell me that they did not consider this a holiday weekend with the exception of Monday. So they expected all our work orders complete even if it meant working Sunday.
> Sorry we are independent contractors which means we make our own hours. If that is the case then I will have to bill for health insurance and over time since you will now be dictating my hours which classifies me as an employee.


I have told them the same thing. I told them if they wanted to force me to work Sunday I would first have to talk to my lawyer to see if that was not some form of religious discrimination because for me and my crew it is a day of rest. That typically changes there mind and they "understand" if we do not work Sundays.


----------



## PropPresPro (Apr 12, 2012)

Gypsos said:


> I have told them the same thing. I told them if they wanted to force me to work Sunday I would first have to talk to my lawyer to see if that was not some form of religious discrimination because for me and my crew it is a day of rest. That typically changes there mind and they "understand" if we do not work Sundays.


 
I like that one. I might have to use it sometime.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

BamaPPC said:


> I've been told that I need to get "third party" bids. The thing they don't understand is, I've already worn out every decent contractor in my area. Over the last five years I've had many many contractors go to properties and give me third party bids. The amounts were never approved. After about 50 bids with no work, the third parties quit taking my calls. They have better things to do than to jump through hoops for nothing. Work order time lines are around 48 hours. By the time I get to the property and see what's going on, the contractor I call has about 12 - 24 hours to go to the property and get me a bid. Try calling a working contractor on Thursday at 4PM and tell him you need a bid by 2PM Friday. Yep, he laughs at you. I've heard so many times...Can't help you. Best I could do is look at it Tuesday. Call SG, "It'll be Tuesday before I can get a bid." - "We'll re-assign". So I just quit trying.
> 
> Damn, there I go rambling again.






I ran into the same thing, only it didn't take 50 free bids. 

Call em up and as soon as they heard the words bank owned or foreclosure they said "sorry we can't help you and would hang up". 

Nationals never could get it thru their thick pea brains that contractors do not give out "free" bids with no expectation of getting work. At least not for very long.
I wouldn't run around and give out free bids if I had no hope of getting approvals either.


----------



## MNanny (May 23, 2013)

I got burned on a wint early on and now I ask for a plumber service call to certify perfect plumbing. Turns out plumbers don't guarantee winterizations because there are too many chances for things to go wrong. Makes you wonder how GC's or professionals like BamaPPC can be required to do it. 
I've burned through all of the plumbers and electricians in my area. I have to pay an hour for a bid. I don't blame them at all. After all, I hate working for free.
Seems like the people on this forum do the hard skilled work, hoping for the gravy trashouts that end up going to the short term hacks.
I'd like to see the guys that cut grass for $12 bucks and do trashouts for $10 a CYD make money if they had to do utility transfers and final conveyance for $25. Not too mention 2nd and 3rd bids on massive damages for the same.
I've had guys spend an 2 hours on the road, another hour at the property measuring and taking pictures, and spent another 2 hours working out bids and uploading 200 pictures all for $25 bucks. 
Try to make that business plan work at bargain basement prices...


----------



## BamaPPC (May 7, 2012)

It's called disclaimers. You need to work up disclaimers for all the work you are required to do that you aren't exactly qualified to do.

Mold remediation. Winterizations. Roofing. Things like this need to have disclaimers. Now, DON'T do anything you cannot perform legally. But, if you can legally perform the service, but you aren't trained or qualified to perform this service, disclaimers need to be added to all bids and invoices.

Example: _Bidding to treat area of mold with bleach and/or a mold control product. This method of treatment does not guarantee there will be no regrowth of mold. This method of treatment should in no way be considered mold abatement, removal, or prevention. Should XXXXXX and/or the client choose this method of mold treatment, XXXXXXX and the client assume all responsibility for any claims, of any kind, due to the presence of mold and also agree (my company). will not be held 
liable for any claims that may arise due to the presence of mold. _

This may not ward off all litigation, but it does put the onus back into the clients court. Since you told them upfront that what THEY asked you to do would not solve the problem.

When you go to the mechanic shop and he tells you the front shocks are going bad and need replacement, and you tell him, "don't have time today, just let it go." If you leave the shop, the mechanic is no longer liable for anything that happens because those shocks fail. If you tell your client there is mold, they tell you to wipe it down with bleach, you tell them that won't fix it, they say do it anyway...who's in trouble if there's a problem later? Disclaimers.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

When it comes to things like mold I prefer to take NO chances and not touch it with bleach, kilz and disclaimers!!!!


----------

