# Not bidding



## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Is it mandatory to bid on every issue u see in a home??


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

If you want to maximize your profits absolutely


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Ok thanks. My follow up to that would be say for example a house needs a roof repaired, a new sump pump, cleanout, yard service, lock change etc.. but I don’t do roofs. Would it be economical to bid on the roof as well and sub it out to ensure I get the bid?? Or would the price that they want to pay for the roof be far less than what a roofer would normally charge?


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Ok thanks. My follow up to that would be say for example a house needs a roof repaired, a new sump pump, cleanout, yard service, lock change etc.. but I don’t do roofs. Would it be economical to bid on the roof as well and sub it out to ensure I get the bid?? Or would the price that they want to pay for the roof be far less than what a roofer would normally charge?



Let's back the truck up a little bit here....

NOTHING is mandatory. Everything you do in this biz is a choice. That said....

If you don't bid a roof in bad shape, and you don't report it in any way, you could be on the hook for that new roof at your cost...or a sump, or mold, or whatever is in need of repair. Many companies however, have built into there upload program that if a damage is reported, it won't let you close the work order without a bid. 

I also am not too fond of roofing. I have on several occasions put several thousand in my pocket by overseeing a 3rd party roofer. Bid whatever makes YOU happy to get the job done. Yes, many times your bid will be too high...but then other times they just might go for it for whatever unexplained reason. I once bid $3,000 to drive 3 hours one way to tarp a roof. I was really busy and didn't feel like doing it...yeah, it got approved and some other stuff got put off for the easy money. I was REALLY happy.

Again, bid all for whatever makes YOU happy.

Oh, and when they tell you your bid doesn't match their cost estimator, politely tell them to go ahead and get a second opinion and that you are not offended by that.


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

I bid things I dont want to do extremely high I mean stupid high and I'll be honest I've had a few approved and we got them done because if it's a 2500$ job in all actuality bid it 6000$ if its approved you will find a way to get it done if not you really didn't want it anyway so no hard feelings correct?


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

But by no means ever leave a property without addressing these issues because more now than ever there putting alot of these 3rd party charge backs on us if we fail to address an issue they have the ability to keep your $ whenever they want to keep that in mind if you want your $ and they want to be jerks they can force your hand if you get yourself into a situation for them to do so bottom line dont give them a reason


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

So take it or leave it pretty much. I like that. Thanks for the clarification safegaurd dropout and mountaineer.. I’m still in the intitial research phase of this whole thing and have so many questions. I do a lot of research but nothing beats talking to the people actually doing it.


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

As far as starting up..Any recommendations on insurance companies?? Can I go monthly or do you have to pay a year up front?


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Also when they talk about using a cost estimator for certain things.. any suggestions on which to use and where to find it??


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

5-600$ for 6 months of general liability 1 million $ policy not to bad


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

5-600$ for 6 months of general liability 1 million $ policy not to bad


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

No problem anytime and best of luck to you you will be fine just dont let anyone take advantage theres so much work out there for everyone its crazy God bless


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

And by the way they have a cost estimator in place already that you'll rarely ever go by you will always end up supplying your own bid there cost estimator is a joke depending on the co. I only have c.e. pricing for typical grass recuts that you can go by, everything else usually requires your adjustment


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Any suggestions on networking? I would like to talk to some people to have contacts in place once I invest in a truck , equipment, insurance, etc but don’t want to be laughed off or have them think I’m not serious or too inexperienced.


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## A1LM (Mar 26, 2017)

I typically bid to get a "professional insured bid". Electricians and plumbers are typically $200. Roofers are $300. Structural engineers are $1200.
In our area, it is easy to wear out your ability to get a free bid ... some will only provide a bid when compensated.


I am not fond of roofing jobs either unless they are pretty flat...


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Ok so bid for what it’ll cost you to have them come do an estimate. That makes sense..


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Question.. on tea hours if the dump near me charges by weight, but we are charging by cubic yard, do you end up losing out ever? I called this landfill and they said for regular debit it would be $85/ton. Is that a good price? They also don’t take hazardous materials or chemicals so idk where to take that and how expensive that would be. The one company I worked for dumped everything at one place. Is there any keywords I should search for to find a dump that dosent regulate the contents of the debri so I could just make one trip??


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

* on trash outs * not tea hours lol


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## A1LM (Mar 26, 2017)

*Debris*

Metal and computer stuff goes to recycling. I have an "understanding" with a local tire shop manager for tires and oil. We have two places to dump limb and leaves for free - they mulch it all. TVs are the biggest pain, but we have a local township that will take. Most everything else goes to the dump for around $75 cyd. I never got big money per cyd like some of these guys, but made it on $16-$30 cyd. Yes, $16 is tough but possible. Assero pays $20 a cyd, but with their 20% discount comes out to $16. However, I factor in the money makers like mulching for $220 and miscellaneous repairs. Just got to watch your bottom line.


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

So on debri removal.. no money in that? If your charging 16 or 20 but they’re charging you $75 that’s a loss. But I guess some things you can sell or take somewhere else like you said. And on the background check, only I have to pass that or anyone I employ as well?


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Typically hazardous materials are bid separate as everything else that is not considered reg debri and if you have to get any 3rd party estimates you negotiate that bid prior to doing it you will be reimbursed plus a trip charge, believe me i hate 3rd party bids more than anything but success comes at a price


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

If your getting 20-26 a cyd for debri removal and thats pretty much industry standard bid the stuff high and heres a secret for some odd reason you can take 5 timea the amount of photos of the debri amd to them through pics it works everytime they'll approve it and if your not working for a shady co. They will get your $ i've been doing this 15 years 7 with my own co. And average almost 200,000 a year for 7 straight years through a sub of a sub co. Not even a national


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

I do trashouts for 20 cyd and 100 cyds is a norm for us 2,000 $ 4 guys 4 loads 25cyd a load no dumpsters use your own dump trailers or dump trucks you will make $ i still profit 1,000 after each clean out not including the sales clean, lock change, and other bids


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

mountaineer said:


> I do trashouts for 20 cyd and 100 cyds is a norm for us 2,000 $ 4 guys 4 loads 25cyd a load no dumpsters use your own dump trailers or dump trucks you will make $ i still profit 1,000 after each clean out not including the sales clean, lock change, and other bids


Ive got a 16'x 6" trailer with 4 ft sidewalls. Comes out to about 15 cyds. I'd like to see what you are trailing that holds 25!!


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

20x8x8 gooseneck dump trailer with a 2001 f450 16 ft flatbed gets the job done relatively easy listen i cam tell you been doing this a while but you still could learn things everyday as i am take the advice and run with it ive used an 87 chevy 3500 14 ft dump truck and actually still use it and do the same, i could do it with your trailer size also 3 more loads costing you only 150. More in landfill fees but still can be done IF YOUR WILLING


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## A1LM (Mar 26, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> So on debri removal.. no money in that? If your charging 16 or 20 but they’re charging you $75 that’s a loss. But I guess some things you can sell or take somewhere else like you said. And on the background check, only I have to pass that or anyone I employ as well?


$16 to $20 cyd. The $75 is per ton. It does make money, but not like in the early days. I do have a client that pays $30 cyd, so those are pretty worthwhile. You can usually expect 15-20 cyds per ton (depending on what is being removed), so $300-$400 a load less the dump fee, labor, and materials (those bags ain't cheap!). A team of two guys under supervision (voice of experience) can usually load a 15-20 cyd trailer in about 3-4 hours. Establish early what the measurements of your trailer is and stick to them. I use a 7x12 trailer, but measures out to 7x12' 6". Obviously, I use the larger measurement. I hear some banks still pay up to $50 cyd, but I only got on one of those once or twice over the years. Gotta have those connections.

By the way, I do not usually move bricks that are whole. If they are a few broken, I will throw them on the trailer. Stacks of bricks and wet wood get a separate bid with an excess weight fee. I broke one trailer with bricks. Won't do it again. Usually load in the back of the truck.

Taking stuff to other places - donating clothes to Salvation Army (I need at least half dozen bags to make it worthwhile), recycling, and such are all part of the hustle for the small guy. Maybe it is all just one giant hustle.

You need to pass the background check at least. The rest is open to interpretation ....


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Yea I was thinking about renting a box truck even if I didn’t profit that much in the beginning, just to build my clientele. Then once I had a steady flow of work I’d buy a box truck.. I think the biggest ones are 26’ ??? My thought is that would lessen the amount of trips I had to take and maximize space for hauling.


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## PropPresPro (Apr 12, 2012)

safeguard dropout said:


> . . . I'd like to see what you are trailing that holds 25!!





mountaineer said:


> 20x8x8 gooseneck dump trailer


20x8x8 actually equals 47.40CY :nerd!! Got any pics of that thing? I'd like to see it too.


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Between the 16ft stakebody and that it holds more than 47 cyds but thats what im using and i only bring it for jobs that are 100 cyds or more you really only need a 14 or 16 ft dump truck with at least 6ft sides you can measure and do the numbers all you want but if you know what your doing you'll be able to show 25cyds even on your 16 ft trailer, my advice to you is raise your sides a couple feet easy fabrication very little expense involved i know for a fact you can do it with that trailer and if not than maybe your doing something wrong maybe its your pics or just the company's uour dealing with


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Unloading that thing is triple the work load no one will want to work for you if you do that, get a dump trailer or dump truck with landscape body you will not regret it


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Listen man if it takes 2-3 of your guys 3-4 hours to load that size trailer then thats your problem period


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Add 4ft to your sides giving you 8ft sides and do it using metal grate for less weight then do your math


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## PropPresPro (Apr 12, 2012)

mountaineer said:


> Between the 16ft stakebody and that it holds more than 47 cyds . . .


With all the pics we take in this business you gotta have 1 or 2 of this trailer sitting around. Post 'em up, I'd like to see it.


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

> i only bring it for jobs that are 100 cyds or more


In another post you said 100 cyds was the "norm". Let's see a pic of this beast! Biggest dump trailer I could find on line was a 20x8x4 and was $15,000. Remember you were giving "advice" to someone starting out with nothing. You recommend going out and getting something like that??



> but if you know what your doing you'll be able to show 25cyds even on your 16 ft trailer,


Sounds like YOU might be the shady company. No wonder they're only paying 16-20. 40-50 per CYD used to be the norm.


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## JohnnyCubes (Mar 22, 2019)

Maybe he is loading a tractor trailer on the job. Seems reasonable 😂


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

No thats what i use on bigger clean outs, but i said you can do it with a 14 or 16 ft dump truck or trailer obviously you guys dont know a whole lot about fabrication or how to build anything no wonder you are on here trying to get all the advice you can on how to make it in this industry smh dont yoi know anyone who knows anything


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

That would be 48 to 54 foot trailers not 20 big difference


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

And if thats the biggest one you could find better keep looking


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Just remember 1 thing you guys are the ones still trying to figure out who pays


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Singlesource is just 1 of the company's who actually have a 100cyd preapproved allowable meaning no call from site is even required to proceed with the cleanout have you ever heard of them judging from your words probably not and probably not going to they stray from co. Like your self remember DROP OUT is in your name not mine


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Im just a contractor but I'll tell you what i didnt make nothing with safegaurd either but theres a company in NJ who pulled 20 million with them im 2018 lmao you guys are something else go back to the factory's


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## D.R.S. (Oct 5, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Is it mandatory to bid on every issue u see in a home??



bid EVERYTHING or YOU may wind up paying the other contractor!!!! if im interested in said scope of work i bid competitively......... if i dont want the work i bid HIGH and tell them to get another bid.... usually don't hear back after that cause there's always someone out there willing to low ball the bid but the issues have been reported and bid on so worries on back charges due to damages........ been working for me for quite some time


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Ok thanks for the advice.. is there any bounds as to what they can back charge u on.. what if someone vandalized the home after u fix everything but u did everything u were supposed to to secure it? What if there’s water damage inside the wall or something where it’s not visible but then before you get payed it starts to show?? I’m guessing the pictures would cover u on that?


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

mountaineer said:


> Im just a contractor


...a bit of a shady one


> but I'll tell you what i didnt make nothing with safegaurd either


I actually did make money from Safeguard...they stole a small portion of it


> but theres a company in NJ


Who? Name?


> who pulled 20 million with them in 2018


So? Gross? Net? You know the difference?


> lmao


Me too!!! :grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin:grin


> you guys are something else


Nope. We're just guys doing honest work for good money. We're not bottom feeders of Safeguard and the like. We have learned how to say no and get what we need for the job or we don't do it. We don't do trash outs for $16 a cyd. and we don't cut grass for $35.

You, on the other hand, have come here and told us some real whoppers. 

First you said you've been in this business 15 years, yet you didn't know Safeguard was bad until a few days ago. First they were great, then in 11 days you dumped them. Then you claim to be a man of God, and proceed to tell us we should charge 25 cyds when we really only have 15. Then you told us about your 25 cyd dump trailer, which we still can't get a picture of, that you haul around because 100 cyds are the norm for you. But then you said you only bring it for the jobs that have 100 cyds. Which is it dude? Then you tell us you are "making" 200K a year working for a sub of a sub of a sub. Net? I doubt it and so does anyone else who's done this for a while. There's more but don't have time to go back and dig up each whopper.

Hey, anyone is welcome here, regardless of experience, but when you start talking in circles you're going to get called on it.


> go back to the factory's


Never worked in one. What's it like?


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## D.R.S. (Oct 5, 2018)

........well that didnt take to long to unfold...,hahahaha


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## A1LM (Mar 26, 2017)

*Debris removal hours*



mountaineer said:


> Listen man if it takes 2-3 of your guys 3-4 hours to load that size trailer then thats your problem period


Trailer size is the first consideration. I hear many of you with large dump trailers and such. I started with a 5x8 Lowes special because that was what I could pay for with cash within 30 days. I then moved to a 6x12 covered and now have a 7x12.5 trailer with 2 foot solid sides. I put 4x8 sheets of plywood around the sides but they lay flat in the trailer when empty or using for other projects. I can load up the trailer easily 6-7 feet high. This puts me in the 20-25 cyds per load range. I suppose the next step would be a dump trailer, as it is now we can usually get two loads a day to the dump.

After the trailer, it really depends on how much you have to bag and generally clean up. Lots of small debris, even in a horder houses take time. It also makes a difference if you don't care about damaging walls, hiding open spaces in your trailer or throwing stuff that should be recycled in the trailer. Ethics and doing a quality job takes times. Our business is notoriously noted for a lack of these things. The bottom line is not the almighty dollar. The end of the day all you have is your character and what your name stands for. I will be the first to admit that it is a daily struggle to be consistent with this. I often bring issues to my guys not because I don't know what the right thing to do is, but to invite them into the process of making ethical business decisions. While not perfect, it helps with consistency of implementing company values.

Bottom line: We have chosen to make less by sticking to our principles. The fruit of this is not always the big and glamorous jobs but we have established a brand where when the chips are down or someone needs to fix another contractors work we get called. Then we communicate almost daily about the status of our orders with reps. If we are behind schedule, we tell them. If we screwed up, we tell them and do our best to fix it no matter the cost. We don't make excuses or lie about a truck being broke down when it isn't. While there is a high turner over of reps with these companies, they do have memories when those gravy jobs come up. As it is, we make enough for myself and a couple of other guys, in the 200-250k range (gross). I have and can live with that.


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Star general contractors


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Amen finally someone with some common sense applauds


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

How much you making doing honest work anyway if you think that you're gonna find an honest client yet none of you guys are even close to my level im retiring at 38 and have 4 other businesses dont have to prove anything to you but of course you have to start slow for maybe 2weeks


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

mountaineer said:


> How much you making doing honest work anyway


None of your business?


> if you think that you're gonna find an honest client


There are thousands out there. However, they don't tend to be national/regional/ sub sub sub property preservation companies. There are one or two pres companies I do occasional work for. I did an occupancy inspection for one yesterday. They called and offered $80 for a drive by photo shoot. Zero miles out of my way so I took it. Most of my pres work comes from realtors though.


> yet none of you guys are even close to my level


How do you know? You don't.


> im retiring at 38


Why? I surely wouldn't want to.


> and have 4 other businesses


Then why are you dabbling in a cut throat bottom feeding business like preservation?


> dont have to prove anything to you


Nope. But if you post questionable things here, and give advice to newbies, then some answers are in order.


> but of course you have to start slow for maybe 2weeks


What the hell are you talking about?? Pulling that 25 cyd dump trailer with your Ford? :eek


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## Saige (Apr 13, 2019)

Calling our business bottom feeding stung a little, but I can't say you're wrong. haha


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

Saige said:


> Calling our business bottom feeding stung a little, but I can't say you're wrong. haha


Didn't mean to offend anyone but when the money in the hands of the contractor is too often 20% of what the bank pays for the service, it's a bottom feeder business. Too many guys going broke thinking they can make up the low prices on "volume". Volume is code word for bottom $. 

Welcome to Pres Talk! :smile


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

I didnt start with that i started with an income tax check a generator and a mountaineer doing winterizations and with my 1st check i purchased a 5x8 trailer from tractor supply and i used a 52 inch wright stander and then i kept climbing it took me about 3 years to get to that level and yhe preservation business has been very good to me speak for yourself om that one buddy


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

If you guys dont think your being paid enough or at all why are you still on here talking aboit it if its a bottom feeder business walk away from it


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

mountaineer said:


> If you guys dont think your being paid enough or at all why are you still on here talking aboit it if its a bottom feeder business walk away from it


That's a great question actually.

Preservation is very good to me also. However, I happen to live in Iowa where the next foreclosure might be an hour down the road from the last one. Iowa has the second lowest unemployment in the country. (damn republicans!:wink) From what I understand, the east coast still has a large number of distressed mortgages, and work is plentiful. 

Most nationals fail to realize the difference and expect you to drive 1 hour or more for a few bucks. Some nats literally have only 2 or 3 vendors for my entire state. Jobs are few and far between but they expect work completed at the price they are offering. Not happening. Negotiation has been the only way to make a buck.

I learned of the cut throat bottom feeding when I was with Safeguard. I had a signed contract for pricing and territory doing grass and snow. I worked it exactly as we had NEGOTIATED for about a year. It took a while but eventually they found someone willing to do it cheaper. They told me to lower my price or they would reassign all my properties and informed me that they would be using my signed agreement for toilet paper. I told them to get to the reassigning. After reassigning all my properties, they then went back through all my photos for the year and nit picked and back charged what they could.

So, why am I still here? For one, I still do a bit of pres work for realtors. Most importantly though, I like to help people not fall into some of the traps I know lay ahead. So, when you come on here posting up and singing the praises of Safeguard, you're one of 2 things.....an employee of Safeguard, or just plain ignorant.

Since you dumped Safeguard a week after saying they are great, I'll go with ignorant.


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

Lol I don’t want to interrupt, but I still have some questions.. anybody have any recommendations on insurance companies who would cover me and give me a good rate??im in Pennsylvania btw. I appreciate u guys!


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

You usually can inquire with any ins. Co. That offers small business ins. you will need 1 million $ general liability but if you plug in with a national they require you to have errors and omissions coverage a little more difficult to get but my 1st general liability policy was through selective and it was only like 7-800.$ for the year and they dont require much up front at all very easy to get if you want workmans comp its additional fees but where im at your not required to have it


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

mountaineer said:


> You usually can inquire with any ins. Co. That offers small business ins. you will need 1 million $ general liability but if you plug in with a national they require you to have errors and omissions coverage a little more difficult to get but my 1st general liability policy was through selective and it was only like 7-800.$ for the year and they dont require much up front at all very easy to get if you want workmans comp its additional fees but where im at your not required to have it


HOWEVER,

Some nationals have preferred providers, meaning that they will not accept the insurance from your local agent. If you purchase insurance and then decide to work for MCS and it's not from one off their golden list. then you just wasted money. Typically these preferred providers taylor a policy specific to preservation work, and they are expensive policies with crappy coverage...Oh, and they are only good for foreclosure work. They won't cover you on private work. It's a big racket scam. It is possible to negotiate with some nationals to use your non preferred insurance, but it is a tough sell.


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## [email protected] (Mar 26, 2019)

So would you recommend one from the Golden list as a necessary evil?? Or don’t deal with the nationals who won’t except local insurance. From what I hear a lotta nationals screw u over but it seems like I’d have no choice but to link up with a couple of them to keep a steady flow of work right?


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Whoever you receive work from unless your working directly with a realtor/broker is going to be getting work from some national


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

They will not require specific ins. Until you reach a certain amount of yearly income


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## mountaineer (Mar 21, 2019)

Usually when you gross 80,000 anually or more they will require specifics


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## safeguard dropout (Apr 21, 2015)

mountaineer said:


> They will not require specific ins. Until you reach a certain amount of yearly income.....Usually when you gross 80,000 anually or more they will require specifics


HOWEVER,

This has not been my experience at all. You will be required, if doing work for a national servicing company, to have general liability and errors and omissions. If you tell your local agent you need E&O they'll look at you like you're stupid. E&O is typically for doctors and lawyers and such. If you do have a claim, the preferred providers typically suck. They will not investigate or fight for you. They'll roll over and pay. Not sure who's greasing who's pockets or how, but there is surely some shady behavior in that end of the industry.

For a low end policy with Brunswick I think the cheapest premium was 1500 a year, but that premium goes up incrementally with gross income. I had a "handyman" policy with Nationwide through my local agent with TWICE the coverage, NO deductible, covering ANY work ANYWHERE for $800 a year, but it was unacceptable to at least a couple nats.


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