# Cyprexx extorting money if you don't have work comp......



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

For those of you who might not know, Cyprexx STEALS 9% from your proceeds if you do not supply them with a Work Comp certificate. In my state as a sole proprietor you are allowed to exempt yourself from work comp. if you have no employees. This is my situation. This is fine for even the biggies like Screwguard and AMS but not for Cyprexx!!! My question is how are they getting away with this? They do not pay for a work comp policy with the 9%, they just pocket it. I cannot see how this is legal when i provided them with a legal document from the state of Montana showing i am exempt.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Not paying for work completed is illegal too. 


And yet............ they all do it.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

You might be a "work comp exempt" State for sole proprietors but you can purchase the "non-employee or non-owners" work comp policy. Different names in different States but the same policy.

Remember that Cyprexx (and a lot of other companies-not only P&P) require this not for YOU but for any subs that you may hire who may not have the exemption filed or a work comp policy. 

Buy the policy..its very good protection. Its fairly affordable since it is based of the gross receipts that you pay out to any subs. Also, some of the exempt States will let you file yearly on audits the subs exemption certificates (if they want to be exempted) which can make the policy a minimum premium. Here the cost is $300+/- a year so.....if you do over $3500 a year in gross receipts than it is saving you money over the 9% withdrawl.

Oh yeah...you can ask Cypricks for a copy of their work comp blanket policy and they used to provide this.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

And it states on their website that exemptions are not accepted. Look under insurance requirements.

https://www.cyprexx.com/vendors/vendors.aspx


But seriously, what are you doing for yourself without workmens comp. Are you putting some money in a fund for yourself and a lot of it. 

How much money would you have to had put away to support yourself and family for the rest of your life if you got hurt bad today?

For the person without a lot of assets or savings this is false savings and could cost you a lot down the road. Remember to take care of yourself.

In Washington state as a corporate officer I can be exempt if I want to. We have workmens comp for the employees and currently I am exempt. For many years when I was younger I was covered with workmens comp because I didn't have the assets then to self insure myself. I also had a disibility policy on top of that. Now I don't have to work anymore if I choose to, and can put the money saved from the workmens comp into savings.

But I do put myself on workmens comp every once in awhile when we are a sub for another contractor as I work in the field right along our employees. 

When I use subs no exemptions are accepted also as this is the way it is with most companies. And for good reason, there are too many people that will sue just because they couldn't take care of themselves. An the other reason is most insurance carriers require that all subs have their own workmens comp besides liability and no exemptions.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

The quote i got form the State Fund which is the cheapest out there was the 10K minimum coverage policy for $3250 per year. MT has the HIGHEST work comp rates in the nation. My disability policy runs $42 a month. I can buy a lot of damn insurance in many different lines for $3250 per yr!


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Here's an article....


"“I’ve talked to a hundred businesses, and there are jobs available, but they can’t afford to hire anyone, because the work-comp rates are so high,” "

http://helenair.com/news/article_4f11f4e8-3bb9-11df-9814-001cc4c002e0.html


This is the biggest reason i have subs and no employees. Between Work Comp, SS, Medicare and Obamacare in the next few years it's near impossible to afford an employee and pay them a fair wage on top of all the BS you have to pay out. Now your also paying either mileage or buying another truck, insurance, equipment for the employee to use. It is a HUGE vicious circle.


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## APlusPPGroup (Apr 14, 2012)

SCIF rates are high because they are just about the only high-risk carrier throughout the US.

They cover business that have had too many claims, when other carriers drop them, and nearly all new businesses. Most w/c companies will shy away from new and unrated businesses because they don't want to take the risk. They are comfortable with their low-risk clients.

SCIF will generally cover any business, regardless of the risk. But the premiums are high for this reason.

It takes about 3 years of continuous coverage before you can get your loss/experience rating. If you have minimal losses for that 3 years, your premiums are discounted by your experience modication, at which time you can shop for new insurance carriers to bring rates down even further. For the 1st 3 years, you pay 100% of the premium.

Linda


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

*W/c*

Actually I found the most reasonable was The Hartford. It runs me about $1900. per year with monthly payments.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

brm1109 said:


> Actually I found the most reasonable was The Hartford. It runs me about $1900. per year with monthly payments.


me as well


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## HollandPPC (Sep 22, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> For those of you who might not know, Cyprexx STEALS 9% from your proceeds if you do not supply them with a Work Comp certificate. In my state as a sole proprietor you are allowed to exempt yourself from work comp. if you have no employees. This is my situation. This is fine for even the biggies like Screwguard and AMS but not for Cyprexx!!! My question is how are they getting away with this? They do not pay for a work comp policy with the 9%, they just pocket it. I cannot see how this is legal when i provided them with a legal document from the state of Montana showing i am exempt.


When I first started with them ages ago I got a dummy Workmans comp policy until I went LLC.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

Boy Oh Boy.

You complain and don't even realize how good you have it.

In Washington state Workmens Comp is paid to the state based on a hourly rate and the rate is variable depending on the job classification and experience rating.

For example our rates.

0510 00 Wood Frame Bldg Construction - $3.2958 a hour

0107 01 Pipelaying NOC - $2.3281 a hour

So for a framer working 2,000 hours a year the employers part of the WC rate is $8,958 a year per employee


Now a friend of ours owns a logging company and they are paying up to $19.10 a hour per employee and that is $38,200 a year per employee and he has a crew of about 10 people.

See article below about how bad our rates are here.

http://www.washingtonstatewire.com/home/12290-business_has_its_own_%E2%80%98trail_of_tears%E2%80%99_%E2%80%93_howls_of_pain_at_hearings_on_workers%E2%80%99_comp_tax_increase.htm




So as you can see your rates are actually really low and those of us with the high rates somehow make it.



Here is a link to the Washington state web page with my rates, so you can see I am not bull******

https://fortress.wa.gov/lni/crpsi/R...C&BusinessLegalName=ZENITRAM+INC&SelfInsured=


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

Holy cow! 

$4.78/$100 of payroll is bad enough! We are State Pool since any occupation that is physical labor goes to the pool. Clerical payroll is $.35/$100.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Kgmz said:


> Boy Oh Boy.
> 
> You complain and don't even realize how good you have it.
> 
> ...


Montana is based off classifications as well. The article states the "AVERAGE" rates but like you said, logging and construction are very high. I also wonder how i would file a work comp claim against myself?? If i was to do work comp for myself i would actually have to pay myself and this opens another can of worms!!


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2011)

Our rate is actually higher because there is a employee paid portion of .54875 per hour so a total of $3.84455 per hour. 

And this rate is the same if it is a laborer helping the framers or a lead framer. So it is a higher percentage of a lower paid workers payroll, $3.84455 per hour whether they make $12 or $30 a hour.

So for the $12 per hour guy his rate would be about $31 per $100. And for the $30 per hour guy about $12.80 per $100.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2011)

mtmtnman said:


> Montana is based off classifications as well. The article states the "AVERAGE" rates but like you said, logging and construction are very high. I also wonder how i would file a work comp claim against myself?? If i was to do work comp for myself i would actually have to pay myself and this opens another can of worms!!



The people pushing this are the insurance companies and insures a level playing field and that all players are insured.

Do you require your subs to have liability and WC and do you verify it? 

Do you get a certificate of insurance from your subs? 

What does your insurance company and policy say about this?


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2011)

I require all subs to carry it. Here it's a high percentage of payroll. Carpenters are in at about 28%. 

If subs don't carry it, I'll tell them up front that I add the comp percentage on to their total bid. That means they will pay comp on labor, material, overhead, and profit. Of course my comp audit does the same to me, they charge on the total payment to the uninsured sub. 

That makes uninsureds uncompetitive. 

Our comp laws state that the only ones who don't require comp are the ones who work alone, all the time. No employees, no subs. Of course any contractor who hires them must then cover them.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2011)

That's crazy, I was only paying like $100/mo for comp based on a salary estimate of $25k payout (didn't cover me as owner only my part time employee)


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

The more i read the more confusing it gets. Here is the code. Does my cleaning lady have to be covered? Wonder how "casual Employment" is defined??

39-71-401. Employments covered and exemptions -- elections -- notice. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), the Workers' Compensation Act applies to all employers and to all employees. An employer who has any employee in service under any appointment or contract of hire, expressed or implied, oral or written, shall elect to be bound by the provisions of compensation plan No. 1, 2, or 3. Each employee whose employer is bound by the Workers' Compensation Act is subject to and bound by the compensation plan that has been elected by the employer.
(2) Unless the employer elects coverage for these employments under this chapter and an insurer allows an election, the Workers' Compensation Act does not apply to any of the following:
_*(a) household or domestic employment;*_
*(b) casual employment;*
(c) employment of a dependent member of an employer's family for whom an exemption may be claimed by the employer under the federal Internal Revenue Code;
(d) employment of sole proprietors, working members of a partnership, working members of a limited liability partnership, or working members of a member-managed limited liability company, except as provided in subsection (3);
(e) employment of a real estate, securities, or insurance salesperson paid solely by commission and without a guarantee of minimum earnings;
(f) employment as a direct seller as defined by 26 U.S.C. 3508;
(g) employment for which a rule of liability for injury, occupational disease, or death is provided under the laws of the United States;
(h) employment of a person performing services in return for aid or sustenance only, except employment of a volunteer under 67-2-105;
(i) employment with a railroad engaged in interstate commerce, except that railroad construction work is included in and subject to the provisions of this chapter;
(j) employment as an official, including a timer, referee, umpire, or judge, at an amateur athletic event; ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca/39/71/39-71-401.htm


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2011)

mtmtnman said:


> The more i read the more confusing it gets. Here is the code. Does my cleaning lady have to be covered? Wonder how "casual Employment" is defined??
> 
> 39-71-401. Employments covered and exemptions -- elections -- notice. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), the Workers' Compensation Act applies to all employers and to all employees. An employer who has any employee in service under any appointment or contract of hire, expressed or implied, oral or written, shall elect to be bound by the provisions of compensation plan No. 1, 2, or 3. Each employee whose employer is bound by the Workers' Compensation Act is subject to and bound by the compensation plan that has been elected by the employer.
> (2) Unless the employer elects coverage for these employments under this chapter and an insurer allows an election, the Workers' Compensation Act does not apply to any of the following:
> ...


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-casual-employee.htm

You would have to notify your subs or whoever that they are considered a casual employee. Probably would have to have some papers signed too.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Did some digging and found the letter from the state. I have deleted my business info due to the number of service companies trolling this board..........


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