# Brothers With Five Property Management Fingers



## Natasha (Aug 15, 2013)

This thread is about the sisters and the way they start you out as a contractor. They start out small by seeing if you want to get into this business. They make sure you answer your phone and can receive email. You will need to have general liability insurance. They also send you some paperwork that you are supposed to read and study. A trainer calls you and sort of quizzes you for 30 or 45 minutes.

(Five times I have had Brothers tell me that.) Eventually, you will have to get a background check. So before you even work for the Sisters, you have to cough up some money for the background check done through some 3rd party website. It seemed very odd to me. I took the plunge, and it has worked out so far.

Eventually, I started getting a few work orders. I was pretty clueless at first. I got an initial secure and I didn't have any knobs or padlocks or lockboxes. So I got them to re-assign and I was told I should probably go to someplace like Bargainlocks.com (I think mfssupply.com is another) and order stuff. So after about $150 in money spent, I could start doing property preservation for the Sister Brothers.

I am still pretty new to it, but I made it through the winter making a decent amount of money. I get a lot of calls to go out of area... So far I haven't done it much. Here is a secret. Since I am in a rural area, I analyzed my local area's zip codes in great detail. All of the extreme rural areas I tried to ensure were not on my list. I tried to select just the ones in my favorite areas, mainly in towns. I think most of the other contractors just chose the county or counties they are near and it is a BIG mistake. You can pick and choose on your setup page where you work. The very first call I had with the Five girls was 100+ miles out of my way and it was an initial secure. I said no way, I don't even know what to bring. I could do it now, but no way Jose until I did some on the job training.

Of course I am describing this work as a part-time ordeal. There is no way I want to do this full time, as I am busy with normal stuff. I don't see how or why I would depend on these Five Guys to be my sole income.

Here is how I think I am making the most money: not on the initial secures per se, but on the add-ons. Like dryer vents, roof repairs, tarping, padlocks of outbuildings, and moving personals. Trashouts aren't the greatest, because you need the most manpower and overhead. But I made good on a reverse mortgage in good condition once that had lots of exterior wood/tree debris. I tend to bid high no matter what it is. I am in this to make extra bucks, not feed a family. I see a lot of advice saying don't feed a family on this job, and I would agree.

I take about 120 to 150 pictures on initial secures. I spend 4 hours on the computer writing and filling in things in Zephyr software after a secure. So a lot of this is driving, computing, emails, printing, and phone calls. You better have a few guys who can learn how to take good pics and do the quick and dirty parts.

So far, I am loving shrubs, tarps, swimming pools, and locks. Debris, roof patches, electrical things are so-so. Winterizing, mowing, snow removal, spraying bleach, and toilets are meh... blah... ewee. It's working out for now, but I am literally not quitting my day job or five. Ah, Brothers.

It's best to keep all of those things in stock you use a lot (locks galore, tarps, winterizing stuff) and only buy supplies from online stores. I will save my comments on dealing with the cubicle people... They are roughly the same as the ones in other threads about another national. But if I might sum it up in a nutshell?!?



Do your job and invoice for it. If you goof up, don't sweat. They may not notice. You may be able to photoshop something on the upload. :thumbup:
When you get the kickback email, push back. Right or wrong, tell them why it's bogus, against what you learned in training, or how you've done it that way a lot/always. They changed the rules. You are Tommy Lasorda.
They will usually tell you to do it anyway or you won't get paid.
Do it (or re-do it) anyway. Ask for a later deadline. (This is key)
Give them a reason to like you once you submit the new results. Like all of a sudden, you learned your lesson and they won. :surrender:
Always push back. They sometimes fold. :tank:
Bid high and bid often. I got an order for a second bid once after I had already bid a huge debris removal. I called and asked them what was up with this idea or was it a mistake, and they said just submit the 2nd bid. In other words, the Bank thought there were multiple bids, but it was just me versus me. Guess who got the bid? Guess who had extra money in time for Christmas!? :innocent:
That's what I do. Take it or leave it.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Hope you continue to have success with them.

We worked with them for about 5 years. Submitting duplicate bids under different or no name is something we stopped doing for them and we told them why.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Refuse a few work orders or cut bids and see how it goes. They immediately threaten to charge you back. 

There is no way you can be doing VOLUME if you are spending 4 hours on a computer uoading. 

I literally don't have 4hrs a week of free time let alone in a day. 

It's working for you because you are new and think it's easy. Just like the guy who started dating my ex just wait. They will wear you down like being water boarded.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

You have to be a YES man/woman to work for the children. 


Yes i'll improperly remove moldy sheetrock from a basement and contaminate the rest of the house along the way.

Yes i'll roll on KILZ over that discoloration (MOLD)

Yes i'll do the initial secure even though the broker says the house is closing Friday.

Yes i'll do an initial secure on a house that has already sold and closed.

Yes i'll submit a second bid on the property i submitted the 1st bid on last week. (fraud/ Not a competitive bid per HUD regs)

Yes i'll remove personals as debris PRE-Sale.

Say no to ANY of these request and they will put you on a "level 2 hold" (whatever that is) and then they will cut you off when you refuse to comply and they will look for reasons to charge you back.......


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Here is a sample of a couple e-mails i got from them on 2nd bids.

_"Here is the work order we discussed over the phone to complete a True Second Bid no later than 9/2/12 under a different letterhead then the original bid with the details listed in the work order for exterior debris removal at a higher price then your original bid. You will receive a $25.00 trip charge for completing this order, if no work can be completed vendor is still to be paid $25 trip fee. If you have any questions or concerns about this order please contact your state representative *** ******* (****@fiveonline.com), 586-354-****; Results must include completed paperwork and labeled photo's uploaded to Zephyr."_


_"I have a second bid in ****,MT I need done. You did the first bid on it so what I need is what we call a true second bid. Basically you bid against yourself and you put it on a different company letter head than the first. You word it just like the first (wording is on the work order). No photos required. And it would pay a $25 trip charge.

Can you help me with that?

***** ***

Five Brothers Mortgage Company Services and Securing, Inc.
Vendor Maintenance
Recruiter"_


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Excerpt from HUD guidelines.....
_
"the Mortgagee should obtain two independent competitive bids. If the Mortgagee utilizes a field service company that firm, may provide one of the bids. T*he Mortgagee should obtain a second independent and competitive bid* and submit the bids to the appropriate M&M contractor with an over-allowable request. Field service companies or contractors may not submit second bids directly to the M&M contractor. This violates the integrity of HUD’s requirement for an independent and competitive bid process."_


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

You went ahead and stated what I didn't. 

There is no legal maneuvering to get out of something like that. I had dozens of emails just like that, and I was always amazed that they were willing to put that into print. A "True" second bid may be some legal jargon they were advised to use, but a pig is still a pig, red bow or not.
Of course everyone's experience will be different with a company, but if a National is willing to present double bids to a government entity, how much do you really think you are worth to them?


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> You went ahead and stated what I didn't.
> 
> There is no legal maneuvering to get out of something like that. I had dozens of emails just like that, and I was always amazed that they were willing to put that into print. A "True" second bid may be some legal jargon they were advised to use, but a pig is still a pig, red bow or not.
> Of course everyone's experience will be different with a company, but if a National is willing to present double bids to a government entity, how much do you really think you are worth to them?




GTX63, There are MANY people out there that think this is a non-issue because the 1st bid goes in under 5 childrens name and the 2nd bid goes under your name but it does NOT negate the fact that it IS NOT a competitive bid! What's to stop Joe Hack Contractor from putting in a $20K bid on a $10K job and a week later put in a 2nd bid for $21K on the same $10K job? Hud has made the rules for a reason and many of these companies skirt the rules all the time!!!


----------



## Natasha (Aug 15, 2013)

Yeah, I realized the implications of what may be happening. But on my second bid, I was literally bidding a second time. Just higher.  I wasn't sure what all the ins and outs of their bidding process was at the time. But I assumed that they may find it difficult in certain areas to get other contractors to bid some things. I am rural. So I can imagine they have a tough time getting bids submitted if their hirelings are tied up.

Not every contractor can give them a bid on some of these larger debris removals. I am assuming a lot of people in the industry are 1 or 2 person crews with limited resources for heavy machinery. I am able to run a big crew given enough notice and enough $$$. In fact, this job was done with some help from my family, then my 3-man grounds crew for a few hours, and then 3 hours of heavy machinery work at $200 per hour and we did the last part in the pouring rain. Logistically, somewhat difficult with a lot of trips, but that's why I bid it high and made it my Christmas bonus.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

If they don't have the contractors to cover the rural areas then they shouldn't tell their client they can cover it plain and simple..............


----------



## Natasha (Aug 15, 2013)

The lady who calls me for out-of-territory work is nice and not pushy. It's aggravating to tell her NO, but I usually do. They had a pretty pushy guy I heard from a few times... He doesn't want to hear NO. I am just too busy.

AND when it takes me 4 hours to upload pics and do paper(less) work, it is because there was 2 or 3 days worth of work for the initial and I am billing and/or bidding a lot. I always like to go to a property one day and scope out the types of things I need to bring later. This helps when you are not expecting roof repair stuff or when you need a massive trailer for food/debris or pre-approved shrub removal.

At least this company is all paperless except for notices and the work order itself.


----------



## Coos-NH (Oct 17, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> Say no to ANY of these request and they will put you on a "level 2 hold" (whatever that is) and then they will cut you off when you refuse to comply and they will look for reasons to charge you back.......



Is that like "double secret probation"? :sad:


----------



## UnitedFieldInspections (Dec 20, 2012)

Here is an example-2 weeks ago i get an email with a wo and they told me they have a approved bid from another vendor who is no longer with them for 1800 TO change an electrical panel and bring it up to code.I meet several electricians on my own time.All electricians want to bring the place up to code and change the panel right all bids are over 6000.I sent the bid in there like why is it so much?WHY i ASK?#1 i am not a licensed electrician #2 permits are needed#you need 40 brks that cost 40 each.#3 hanging wire etc the list goes on.Obviously the last guy wasn't licensed and wouldn't bring it up to code.You get what you pay for.I told them if they can get someone cheaper please by all means do it.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> GTX63, There are MANY people out there that think this is a non-issue because the 1st bid goes in under 5 childrens name and the 2nd bid goes under your name but it does NOT negate the fact that it IS NOT a competitive bid!


That thing right there


----------



## thanohano44 (Aug 5, 2012)

UnitedFieldInspections said:


> Here is an example-2 weeks ago i get an email with a wo and they told me they have a approved bid from another vendor who is no longer with them for 1800 TO change an electrical panel and bring it up to code.I meet several electricians on my own time.All electricians want to bring the place up to code and change the panel right all bids are over 6000.I sent the bid in there like why is it so much?WHY i ASK?#1 i am not a licensed electrician #2 permits are needed#you need 40 brks that cost 40 each.#3 hanging wire etc the list goes on.Obviously the last guy wasn't licensed and wouldn't bring it up to code.You get what you pay for.I told them if they can get someone cheaper please by all means do it.



Had a similar situation. The previous vendor paid an electrician out of his own pocket to get the bid. This realtor was a contractor in any sense of the word. He got a "visible" bid from the electrician (who wasn't licensed). I get there and my brother in law does the bid for me to get it up to code. 

He finds that the property was backfed by a generator. It caused a fire. The entire system was ruined. So it all had to be removed and replaced. I was the 2nd or 3rd bid. Maybe both for all I know. So I submit my brother in laws bid and I am told I need to use the same verbiage as the original bid. The same original bid that's missing very important information for code compliance. 

Also the roof had a leak and now the ceiling is covered with mold. They wanted us to remove mention of that.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

thanohano44 said:


> Had a similar situation. The previous vendor paid an electrician out of his own pocket to get the bid. This realtor was a contractor in any sense of the word. He got a "visible" bid from the electrician (who wasn't licensed). I get there and my brother in law does the bid for me to get it up to code.
> 
> He finds that the property was backfed by a generator. It caused a fire. The entire system was ruined. So it all had to be removed and replaced. I was the 2nd or 3rd bid. Maybe both for all I know. So I submit my brother in laws bid and I am told I need to use the same verbiage as the original bid. The same original bid that's missing very important information for code compliance.
> 
> Also the roof had a leak and now the ceiling is covered with mold. They wanted us to remove mention of that.



Troy, Crap like that is why i couldn't stomach working for those jackwagons anymore.......


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

Natasha said:


> The lady who calls me for out-of-territory work is nice and not pushy. It's aggravating to tell her NO, but I usually do. They had a pretty pushy guy I heard from a few times... He doesn't want to hear NO. I am just too busy.
> 
> AND when it takes me 4 hours to upload pics and do paper(less) work, it is because there was 2 or 3 days worth of work for the initial and I am billing and/or bidding a lot. I always like to go to a property one day and scope out the types of things I need to bring later. This helps when you are not expecting roof repair stuff or when you need a massive trailer for food/debris or pre-approved shrub removal.
> 
> At least this company is all paperless except for notices and the work order itself.


Our realities are different. I could never go "look" at a property and decide what we need to take. We take everything everytime. My crews run 8-15 orders a day and sometimes 20-25 during grass cut season and they cover a 90mile radius or they don't work for me.

Basically a guy can figure a minimum of $300.00 a day in fuel, food, materials, etc. So ho needs to be making $1,000.00 to really make the numbers work. It's hard to do any volume when you are arguing, bidding and negotiating with a client all day.

I JUST left a property 5bros winterized yesterday. I re winterized it correctly for 225.00 and rekeyed the last door (one lock one deadbolt) for $125.00. The client is easy to work with. I type up a bid and submit it as a pdf. I only bid the work I want to do. No one forces us to do something we don't want to do.

I just bid a sales clean at $500.00 because we don't do sales cleans, and no one called and said you can't bid that high on a sales clean. If they want us to we can for $500.00. Leaving 5 bros was one of the best decisions I ever made.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Craigslist Hack said:


> Our realities are different.
> I just bid a sales clean at $500.00 because we don't do sales cleans, and no one called and said you can't bid that high on a sales clean.


:yes:

At 75, my MIL still has a weekly list of homes she cleans for her customers. All occupied by normal folks who have busy lives. She gets more for a "refresh" than any national would ever pay. Since 1998, she has cleaned one postsale house for me... one house. 
She called me after the work was done and told me to never ask her to do that again, and if I did, she would have my FIL come get their daughter and our kids, because if a man would commit such inhumanity to an old woman, he must be even worse to his wife.


----------



## ctquietcorner (Jun 29, 2013)

Ah Natasha my dear you are in for a very rude awaking with the five kids. 

It all starts out rainbows and unicorn farts and then it turns into snake venom and hail storms. You will see be patient.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

ctquietcorner said:


> Ah Natasha my dear you are in for a very rude awaking with the five kids.
> 
> It all starts out rainbows and unicorn farts and then it turns into snake venom and hail storms. You will see be patient.





The honeymoon was 9 months for me. 

The next 2 months timeline to the divorce was a nightmare.


----------



## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

BPWY said:


> The next 2 months timeline to the divorce was a nightmare.


I just love pictures.


----------



## ctquietcorner (Jun 29, 2013)

BPWY said:


> The honeymoon was 9 months for me.
> 
> The next 2 months timeline to the divorce was a nightmare.


 
That is funny you say 9 months. That was about the timeline for my husband also. The crazy crap they tried to pull was insane.


----------



## Natasha (Aug 15, 2013)

*Probation Moneymoon period?*

I can tell from anecdotal musings that there is a point at which 5 Brothers takes off the kid gloves with a contractor. Can anyone confirm this? I will have to pay double attention the next little while, because if I understand their internal structure, I think there is a department which handles the newer contractors. And maybe once off probation, there is a different group of people to deal with (I'm guessing) who are trapped in smaller cubicles. :brows:

I am wondering if there is a code which tells them who to mess with and who is making them money or who is expendable. Or who is chronically late with work orders.

Oh, and they give contractors an "Incentive" to keep from having a kickback on an initial secure. I've never gotten paid for one.


----------



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

Natasha said:


> I can tell from anecdotal musings that there is a point at which 5 Brothers takes off the kid gloves with a contractor. Can anyone confirm this? I will have to pay double attention the next little while, because if I understand their internal structure, I think there is a department which handles the newer contractors. And maybe once off probation, there is a different group of people to deal with (I'm guessing) who are trapped in smaller cubicles. :brows:
> 
> I am wondering if there is a code which tells them who to mess with and who is making them money or who is expendable. Or who is chronically late with work orders.
> 
> Oh, and they give contractors an "Incentive" to keep from having a kickback on an initial secure. I've never gotten paid for one.



Their is indeed different treatment of new contractors VS veterans. They know when it's time to mess with you when they have another newbie in their grasps in training............


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

You're not taking the problems seriously I can tell from the things you are saying about the other posters posts.

Calling what they are saying "musings" is not taking the problems this company dishes out seriously.
And then asking for confirmation. Sure there is nothing they'll give you in writing as to when that happens.
But when you notice a big change in their demeanor and actions its pretty clear when you've been reduced in status.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't know that Five Brothers attacks any contractor with Malice. This is what makes them do dangerous. You can't keep on their good side because the people there are all bound by the same set of rules. These rules were put into place to FORCE contractors to do whatever Five Brothers asks. If you refuse they will enforce their reassignment penalties, or backcharges. This is BULLYING plain and simple. 

If you think Five Brothers is a good company you think the bully is your friend. The bully will turn on you and if they haven't yet you are not saying NO often enough. You are a YES man or Woman. These are facts not an opinion. They will get you to it's only a matter of time. 

I wanted their work. They pay well on grass cuts and wints. That was great bait got me right on the hook. Then they tried to eat me!


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Good reply Craigslist.

Natasha take what he said to heart. The day you start saying no to the bullying will be the day the honeymoon is over.
If you are an easy push over the honeymoon may last a long time.


----------



## Field Audit Services LLC (Mar 24, 2013)

Natasha said:


> Do your job and invoice for it. *If you goof up, don't sweat. They may not notice. You may be able to photoshop something on the upload.* :thumbup:





Maybe time to begin a :ban: initiative on those that advocate the dishonest practices that have this industry in such a hole? 

For those of us who DO feed our families with this work and DO THE JOB RIGHT, the OP's way of thinking is a cancer to the industry.


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

I saw that as well and cringed, but decided to let it stand for what it is.

Its her reputation not mine. And it'll come back to bite hard in the axx one day. 
The nationals do troll these forums looking for any and all useful public information they can use
to stick it to the contractors. Karma has a mean way of leveling the playing field.


----------



## ctquietcorner (Jun 29, 2013)

Speaking of dishonest contractors. I still can't believe the photos my husband brought home yesterday.

He went to a REO property that he has been doing plumbing repairs at (pipes should have never broke, but someone dropped the ball and waited until the oil ran out to have it winterized, but that is a whole other story.) 

Anyways, he gets bid approval to repair the 6 broken pipes he found last time. As he is taking the PCR pictures he notices that someone has "fixed" the counter top. Hack job does not even describe it. A monkey could have done a better job. Now mine you this is a coriander (sp?) countertop that had an 8in x 8 in hole/crack in it. Who ever the contractor was that "fixed" it took formica and attempted to glue it over the current countertop. The edges are all hacked up and nothing matches up. There are seams all over and cracked formica. Just an aweful job. It looks 100 times worse than just the small hole/crack on the original top.

Yes we reported it and the REO person is beyond pissed off. Apparently they paid them good money to fix it. I really hope they get charged back. 
If you can't do the job right then don't do it at all.


----------



## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

My crew called me from a trash out 2 days ago and said a guy was kicking them off the job. I went over and the realtors husband was standing there telling me my guys had to leave. I explained to him that we had the approval from the asset manager and we would proceed. He said ok but what are you going to do with those rims and tires? I was like throw them away.

Next thing I know the guy starts asking to pick through the junk and I told him go ahead. He loaded a truck with crap, but it was crap I didn't have to pay to get rid of. After he left I realized the car was no longer out back. THis guy had the car removed and sold it! I had bid the job a little lower than normal figuring I would sell the car to a guy that buys them here in town. 

Well not only did I give this guy a bunch of stuff he stole the car! I think it's shady that the realtors husband owns a preservation company!:whistling2:


----------



## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Craigslist Hack said:


> I think it's shady that the realtors husband owns a preservation company!:whistling2:








That sort of thing goes on waaaaaaaaay more than you think.


----------



## GreenOrchid11 (May 15, 2012)

did anyone have there bids reduced and or proof there bids were increased after sent to five bros ?


----------

