# Please revise bid



## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

So I get a request to revise a bid because it is "above the industry norm". It is a bid for mold removal. The best part is the bid was from March and it is now July. Sure I will revise it, raised it by 25%, then they ask why so high. Guess what, read my original bid, any bid involving mold is only valid for 15 days, after that the bid is void.
So now they say I need to reduce it, HELL NO. get another hack to do it.


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## JDRM (Apr 16, 2012)

brm1109 said:


> So I get a request to revise a bid because it is "above the industry norm". It is a bid for mold removal. The best part is the bid was from March and it is now July. Sure I will revise it, raised it by 25%, then they ask why so high. Guess what, read my original bid, any bid involving mold is only valid for 15 days, after that the bid is void.
> So now they say I need to reduce it, HELL NO. get another hack to do it.


Im sure the mold has spread 25% by now since your initial bid..:yes:

Screw them! :thumbsup:

I had a "HUD" adjusted bid come in the other day, told them to have HUD" do it then, they suddenly had a change of heart and upped it to my initial bid


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## UnitedFieldInspections (Dec 20, 2012)

I get called for "Discoloration" I tell them all the time Stop calling it that its MOLD.I will not touch it because i am not certified yet and its in the back of my head when they sell the house there will be issues.Not to mention they don't fix or solve the issues before you slap some kills on it.Its a joke and ILLEGAL.


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## npm (Nov 14, 2012)

UnitedFieldInspections said:


> I get called for "Discoloration" I tell them all the time Stop calling it that its MOLD.I will not touch it because i am not certified yet and its in the back of my head when they sell the house there will be issues.Not to mention they don't fix or solve the issues before you slap some kills on it.Its a joke and ILLEGAL.


Nope I learned one simple line a after being involved with a lawsuit. When you and your client(s) send a form or letter stated who/when/how and why it was changed or responsibility for my actions to follow guidelines they provide I'll accept. 

Every one here knows the answer to that.....


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Sorry fellas/ladies but I LOVE IT when the non-certified "contractors" do the mold! Had a P&P guy stop yesterday morning to complain about his $24,000 chargeback for OUR services to fix his attempt to do mold removal. The hygienist was there testing our work while the fella was hollering lol. 

What a scene till the hygienist told him how much of a joke he was and the Pre-test shows! 

Another one bites the dust! Remember SOMEONE is inspecting most of these home before a buyer purchases and if there is a hint of mold damage there are repercussions. Normally a financial one.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

That is right. Looks like easy money doesn't it? Big $$ National says bleach and KILZ this basement for 2K and contractors can't get into their trucks fast enough to speed down to Home Depot for $60 worth of bleach and paint.
Then 6 months later the house is sold and the buyers and their kids move in. 3 months after that they are sick and decide to have air quality testing done and boom! Mold spores thru the roof. Their attorney contacts the previous lender, who goes after the National, who goes after the regional, who sends you a wonderful email and a packet of paperwork in the mail. You say you were just doing what the company told you to do? Lol.


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## UnitedFieldInspections (Dec 20, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> That is right. Looks like easy money doesn't it? Big $$ National says bleach and KILZ this basement for 2K and contractors can't get into their trucks fast enough to speed down to Home Depot for $60 worth of bleach and paint.
> Then 6 months later the house is sold and the buyers and their kids move in. 3 months after that they are sick and decide to have air quality testing done and boom! Mold spores thru the roof. Their attorney contacts the previous lender, who goes after the National, who goes after the regional, who sends you a wonderful email and a packet of paperwork in the mail. You say you were just doing what the company told you to do? Lol.


My father tells me all the time about in a few months after is sold the new owners kids are sick etc and who do you think there going after? Some people can slap lipstick on a pig I can't and I would rather go broke then have that liability hanging over my head.Just Curious has anyone here been sued or anything from mold?


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

I know of several contractors who were held liable for costs ranging from a few thousand to over 40k. The largest.claim happened almost two years from the date of move in. It was thru FAS and the contractor continued to work for them after the settlement.


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## Prather Guy (Sep 28, 2013)

Don't the banks / property companies have a responsibility /obligation to note that mold has been detected to the buyer? I believe some states have that requirement. 

It seems like the bank or national should be accountable if they only want you to use KILZ


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Disclosure notices have to be filled out regarding anything about the property that the seller is aware of.

It may seem like the client should be accountable, but the contractor is the one who is agreeing to do the work as described.


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## Framer1901 (Nov 2, 2013)

Incorporate - dis associate - Incorporate - dis associate.

Like a revolving door.

I have seen through mold cleaning jobs over the years but only Fannie Mae homes - I've seen thousands of bleach/kiltz.

When you bid to remove the drywall and provide the steps needed to properly remediate the problem - and the vendor kicks it back and says they only want this or that done - how can I be liable? and if I am, dis associate, re incorporate.

Legal saber rattling - didn't the home get inspected before the purchase? Wasn't there a disclosure sheet?


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Framer1901 said:


> When you bid to remove the drywall and provide the steps needed to properly remediate the problem - and the vendor kicks it back and says they only want this or that done - how can I be liable?


You won't be unless you do the work.


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

You can be held liable if you fail to properly do it. It doesn't matter what the client says they want, it is up to you as a licensed professional to know what is the proper way of doing it. 
I tell my clients we will not bleach and kilz especially when it is growing on the other side of the drywall. There have been a lot of jobs that we turn down and if they get pissed so be it. Rather lose a customer than lose everything I have built up over the years.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Have I seen contractors get sued? Yep- I was sued once on a HUD home mold remediation job. I won The suit because I paid $1,040.00 a hygienist to provide post-remediation clearance testing immediately after the job was done. When these houses are sold the are "as is condition" and any lawyer KNOWS it nearly impossible to sue a Government Entity so they go after the contractor. This suit cost $14,000 in legal fees and expert witness fees AND NO your General Liability Policy will not pay for your legal defense costs since it's excluded. Yes we have Pollution Liability Policy that did pickup $4000 of the costs since we have a $10k deductible. 

These P&P Companies don't tell these Bleach & Kilz Contractors what the reprocussions can be. If they did nobody would do the work. 

I highly suggest that ANYONE considering touching mold work Google the IICRC's monthly trade magazine "the Journal" and read about proper mold protocols. The June edition has some shocking findings about antimicrobials and how ineffective they are.


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## cover2 (Apr 3, 2013)

Core logic is notorious for this ask for a letter and see the evasive answer they give it's comical. They truly want contractors that are clueless.


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## Framer1901 (Nov 2, 2013)

If your liability policy covers you for some sort of work and you are sued, they are in a sense suing your insurance company.

I have a builders license. I install a roof incorrectly, my policy doesn't cover me. Someone falls on my job site, insurance handles it all. 

I plow snow also and have been written letters from attornys numerous times regarding slip and falls. I forward them to the insurance company and they handle it - we have never been held liable because the customer had dictated what we were allowed to do at the job site - full service we're in charge of everything sites, never had a problem. The only sites we've had issues are the sites that limit deicing products. Should I stop servicing sites that don't give me an open check book?

Same thing with mold, I do not remeadiate, I clean what I'm told to clean, paint what I'm told to paint and cover my ass with statements to that effect on the bid and invoice.

And no, I've never been sued over mold, so no I don't know for a fact this or that. I just know that you can't hide in a padded closet, it's pretty hard to eat that way.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

If your work order is to remove the snow, which is on your work order, and you comply with the work order BUT under that snow is a layer of ice that you leave untreated, since it's not on your work order, I would be retired if I was the atty suing you for a Slip & Fall. Friend you are living a charmed life but I wouldn't be banking on it for long. 

As the contractor we are the professional and are held to a higher standard which is to prevent injury. It's called negligence since we should know better. There is no solid defense for this, unfortunately, unless we take all measures to prevent the injury. A work order or a work authorization/contract won't protect us.

I think all contractors do work for free on most projects because we know "it's the right thing to do" or it's a safety measure since we don't want anyone to get hurt/sick from our work.. It's a part of being in business


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## TheGreanTeamInc (Feb 16, 2014)

JDRM said:


> Im sure the mold has spread 25% by now since your initial bid..:yes:
> 
> Screw them! :thumbsup:
> 
> I had a "HUD" adjusted bid come in the other day, told them to have HUD" do it then, they suddenly had a change of heart and upped it to my initial bid


If everyone is so pissed off at the way the industry has gone, why do you still allow it to continue? You have the internet and technology. There are so many better ways to make sure you never get screwed --- and that if you do you got the ability to at least place a rating on a trusted network for others to stay far away from the company.

Clearly, mold is a major issue and you are all right about having to be certified to remove mold. There is a lot of fines in dumping oil, tires, and molded wood in public dumps around the country, just depends on state and country. But it is happening because there is no regulation or oversight on the industry. The contractors keep crying there's a problem, the clients keep saying no there is no problem just take more photos and fill out more PCRs.

Does anyone have any solutions to the problems presented in this thread?


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## LaCaSa (Apr 13, 2014)

Go direct. Do not be another step in the pyramid. Easier said than done though.


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## Framer1901 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wannabe - you misunderstood me:

I no longer do preservation work - you all can have it.

I own and operate an above average landscaping company in an area that see's 80" of snow a year. I plow snow commercially among other things. I have multiple customers, some of which we have contracts with that stipulate when to remove the snow (ie every 2") and where to salt (ie road intersections and grades). If you slip and fall, break your leg, in an area that is not covered under my contract to maintain ice free - then I am not liable - proven a few times over the years.

I also maintain places that I call open check book, take care of it all - we are 100% liable for slip and falls there and we maintain the property in that way - we've never had a claim.

Back to this mold stuff. More than likely, different states have different requirements for dealing with mold. Just like your liability insurance, it probably also has different requirements if you are going to REMEDIATE mold. 

For those of you that REMEDIATE mold, you probably should check with your general liability carrier to see if you are even covered, my carrier won't cover it, another carrier quoted me almost double my current premium. I suspect, the guy earlier in this thread that was sued, won but still payed the 14g in legal costs, his insurance company didn't know about him doing REMEADIATION work, therefore he wasn't covered.

I have cleaned and painted many square feet of mold, the word "remediate" will never be on any of our wo's or bids - we would clean and paint for visual effects but not to remove mold spores. I am liable for the paint dripping on the floor or the bleach staining your carpet, that's it. We never in any way say we are curing or getting rid of the mold problem.

The process of real remediation is daunting. The effort, equipment and safety involved is overwhelming and best left to the companies that specialize in that field. When I looked at entering that field years ago, we would have had to complete one five digit job per month at least to cover costs of equipment, training and coverage - it is not worth it. Unlike LBP (which we are licensed and insured for), mold is a living organism and will come right back if not completely eradicated.

I am a professional, I know what I can and cannot do correctly. I work with my customer in what the job expectations are and I complete the job within that scope.

The bottom line is that every business owner needs to understand what he/she is being asked to do on a wo or contract. Every business owner needs to speak with their liability coverage company and see what they are covered for and what they are not covered for - insurance companies have legal departments - talk to them. Then when you have all the information, you and only you can make the decision if the risk is worth the reward - because no one is operating 100% within a padded room - How many of you use fall protection when working on a roof or off a ladder 6' in the air?


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## Framer1901 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wannabe - I just read back and it was you that was sued.

I'm not sure what state you are in but here in MI, and with my insurance carrier - legal fees are covered by my policy if and only if you are insured to complete the work you are being sued for.

Poor workmanship is not covered.

Mold remediation is not covered.

I drop a tree limb thru a garage roof or on a car - I'm on my own, no coverage for that. My employees are not covered under comp to be on roofs or in trees either. We still do tree work though - when I deem it safe and my butt has to get in the tree.

A mower throws a rock and hits someone - we are 100% covered.

I plant trees and they die, they are covered if I show that they were installed and cared for correctly.

I'd advise anyone doing the jack of all trades work such that preservation work is, consult with your insurance company, see what your liability policy truly covers. I think your eyes will be opened when you find out how little you get for that $750 basic general liability policy.


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## Splinterpicker (Apr 18, 2012)

UnitedFieldInspections said:


> I get called for "Discoloration" I tell them all the time Stop calling it that its MOLD.I will not touch it because i am not certified yet and its in the back of my head when they sell the house there will be issues.Not to mention they don't fix or solve the issues before you slap some kills on it.Its a joke and ILLEGAL.


Right O and does your GL cover you is the MILLION dollar question ?? In my case its NO and when they were told That I had no coverage and they has to sign a disclaimer to that fact they went elsewhere QUICKLY. NOTHING BUT LIABILITY and now it is a part of a sales agreement with ALL properties to disclose ANY mold issues and YES I tell the realtors about it via Email to have a paper trail.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Framer,

I know you know what you are doing. All good. 

You brought up another good point: OSHA 6' height restriction. Heck all the other requirements that are included on OSHA 1926.501 rules. 

A very good buddy "Tom" had a sub fall off roof while cleaning gutters. Tom was "sued" to cover subs medical expenses. Sub didn't sue him BUT subs Ins Carrier DID. It's called subrogation. Tom got out of paying so subs Ins Co sued the Homeowner since ultimately liability falls back to the Owner of the Home if there is no Work Comp coverage in place for all workplace contractors. Service Companies Ins Carrier paid the medical. Now here is where it gets good:

Service Companies lawyers went after Tom and sued for Breach of Contract. Those contracts that ALL the P&P Companies have everyone sign says you must abide by All Codes and Regulations. OSHA Regulations apply and since the sub was over 6' off the ground and Tom never informed Sub in Writing that he had to use Fall Protection and have a Fall Protection Plan and have written Certification of proper training in fall protection etc etc. Tom knows he is going to lose but trying to minimize the payout. Toms GL policy would not pay the legal fees BUT the E&O policy is paying legal fees under an Ommision but they already have Reserved Their Rights to sue their client (Tom) for Negligence for not complying with Federal Regulations. It's a big mess!

It's all Ridiculous but everyone needs to be knowledgable and consult with your atty and insurance broker. It's not as simple as creating a business name and buying Insurance and going to work. Now we can all admit that none of us can follow or know all the dang regulations that can bite a contractor in the butt but we need to be prepared. 

This is why P&P work IMO is not doable any longer: You can't charge what needs to be charged to complete a job and follow all the regulations BUT be damned if something serious happens the banks/service companies will hang you out to dry.


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## Framer1901 (Nov 2, 2013)

You are right o, the boots are the ground people are at the bottom of the food chain, have the shallowist pockets and will get eatin alive by insurance lawyers.

I don't know if this is industry wide, I've been out for almost a year but my wife still does a very large number of inspections for various companies - it seems there is a huge uptick in charge backs and just plain really weird stuff.

Eight years ago it was a bunch of cowboys and indians, now I see them filing police reports for insurance claims on missing appliances, unheard of charge backs and a lot of payments denied.

I'm glad sunglass sales are up, I couldn't deal with the aggravation anymore.


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## TheGreanTeamInc (Feb 16, 2014)

Wannabe said:


> Framer,
> 
> I know you know what you are doing. All good.
> 
> ...


What about a marketplace that gave you, the Contractor, all of the required data you needed to track in case any of this was to happen to you? Exact verbiage of the work order and all terms, all the photos or evidence of work you provided, all of the exact client deliverable verbiage, all the work order notes &/or communication between field and office, and all data transferred freely for the work assignment.

That marketplace is already living and breathing. You can utilize it to connect yourself in a social network with actual clients in other industries, many of the same types of work you receive in preservation are given in facilities services within our network, i.e. lock changes, landscaping, etc. Break free from the limiting yourself to one industry. You have skill sets ladies and gentlemen that are valuable! There are more companies needing work for all types of construction, real estate, transportation & logistics, etc. on right now. 

Without learning any different skilled labor trades, you can enter our market and begin finding clients in other industries that provide work to the network. You may find yourself installing retail merchandise for Best Buy, Wal-Mart, or Home Depot, or installing pin pad systems for Office Depot. But whatever it is go out there and convert your business to a network that protects you. Users in our system are paid the exact payment term date or earlier based on time of approval of the invoice. That means no invoices only get paid on 15th b.s. that the IRS is cracking down hard on. Essentially the system pays out daily, even on holidays or weekends.

The entire transaction is cashless and funds can be withdrawn through bank account ACH transfer, via PayPal, or a Visa Pay Card for your profile. You'll always have a 24/7/365 account ledger, access to all work orders that flowed through your profile, and all information within those orders that is important for both you and the client to have readily available. Best part about it... the clients are rated on PAYMENT TIMELINESS, APPROVAL, & SATISFACTION. So if any clients are interested in playing the old cat and mouse game, very poor overall reputation will follow the clients within our system. Once again leveling the playing field for the industry.


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