# $18,000 Backcharge from 2013



## Craigslist Hack

Received an email stating we were being charged back for a winterization performed in October 2013. We had not been to the property since August 2014 and that was for a grass cut. We didn't enter the property. 

We had a contractor who performed a wint and reported the boiler was compromised. He did the "best Possible" wint that the client asked for. The office person did not supply a bid for a new boiler. 

Since we did not provide the bid to replace the boiler (we are not licensed plumbers) the client decided to hang the entire $18,000.00 charge back on us. We contacted our insurance and they made it pretty clear they were going to deny the claim. 

I hopped in a car and drove the 2hrs to the property and the house had sold. The boiler was clearly still in place and there was no power on even though there is a new owner. I left my number and the new owner called me. He was very helpful and told me he had no idea a claim had been filed nor was he replacing the boiler. He is going with forced air. 

In the end we learned that the mortgagor who had walked away from the property in 2010 was the one filing the claim. It was his contention that he would have been able to sell the property for more if the boiler had been intact. 

I had this squashed quickly by calling the power company and verifying that the power was disconnected in 2010 and had not been reconnected to date. Therefore the property had gone through 2 winters before we ever did the initial secure. Case closed.

The client denied the claim and all is back to normal.

Here is the thing. What would have happened had I not been proactive and gotten involved? Why would the client have even entertained this in the first place? How does a guy walk away from a property in 2010 and sell it in June, 2016 after a national has been servicing it for 2 years?

We are done working for nationals this was it for me. We are quietly headed for the door. I've been saying it for years but after this near miss we are done. That was my get out of jail free card and I know it.


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## newreo

Craigslist Hack said:


> Received an email stating we were being charged back for a winterization performed in October 2013. We had not been to the property since August 2014 and that was for a grass cut. We didn't enter the property.
> 
> We had a contractor who performed a wint and reported the boiler was compromised. He did the "best Possible" wint that the client asked for. The office person did not supply a bid for a new boiler.
> 
> Since we did not provide the bid to replace the boiler (we are not licensed plumbers) the client decided to hang the entire $18,000.00 charge back on us. We contacted our insurance and they made it pretty clear they were going to deny the claim.
> 
> I hopped in a car and drove the 2hrs to the property and the house had sold. The boiler was clearly still in place and there was no power on even though there is a new owner. I left my number and the new owner called me. He was very helpful and told me he had no idea a claim had been filed nor was he replacing the boiler. He is going with forced air.
> 
> In the end we learned that the mortgagor who had walked away from the property in 2010 was the one filing the claim. It was his contention that he would have been able to sell the property for more if the boiler had been intact.
> 
> I had this squashed quickly by calling the power company and verifying that the power was disconnected in 2010 and had not been reconnected to date. Therefore the property had gone through 2 winters before we ever did the initial secure. Case closed.
> 
> The client denied the claim and all is back to normal.
> 
> Here is the thing. What would have happened had I not been proactive and gotten involved? Why would the client have even entertained this in the first place? How does a guy walk away from a property in 2010 and sell it in June, 2016 after a national has been servicing it for 2 years?
> 
> We are done working for nationals this was it for me. We are quietly headed for the door. I've been saying it for years but after this near miss we are done. That was my get out of jail free card and I know it.


I hear you. We had too many close calls and we called it quits. Nationals don't do their home work and they try to dump it on the contractors. 
Anyone who is thinking about getting into P&P now, should read this post and think 10 times and then decide nah, not worth the risks. We sent FAS and SG jump to the lake while back. My only suggestion, don't tell them you quit. Tell them you got family situation and want to cap yourself for few weeks, then extend it and say buy-buy once your AR at 0.


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## Preservation Dude

Wow. Incredible post. Thank you for the information. I am currently working for a national and I don't ever recall being informed about the possibility of "backcharging" and I don't think its specified in the contract. Breach of contract? Deliberate withholding of information?
btw what is AR? Is that work order queue or paid out invoices?
thanls agin for the vital info!!!


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## madxtreme01

As much as I agree that the nationals/regionals are not the people to be getting work from, but in this business is there enough work to get from the brokers? Enough to keep your crews busy full time? Enough to replace the income lost by leaving the nationals? I've been considering this for years mainly because I can't stand that they expect us to work 365 days a year with 48hr turn around times. I need time with my family and I refuse to compromise my home life for this company. If I screw up that's 1 thing and I will go out for a few hours on a Saturday for my bad time management, but to work willingly every weekend because they think we should is ridiculous. Aside from that, the cost estimator and BATF bids getting cut makes some jobs a loss. I know not every job can be a home run, but you should be in the black on every order unless you screw up and need to fix it. We are all in business for ourselves, we should be able to dictate at what rate we can complete work in, and deny work that can't be completed for that amount.


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## mtmtnman

madxtreme01 said:


> As much as I agree that the nationals/regionals are not the people to be getting work from, but in this business is there enough work to get from the brokers? Enough to keep your crews busy full time? Enough to replace the income lost by leaving the nationals? I've been considering this for years mainly because I can't stand that they expect us to work 365 days a year with 48hr turn around times. I need time with my family and I refuse to compromise my home life for this company. If I screw up that's 1 thing and I will go out for a few hours on a Saturday for my bad time management, but to work willingly every weekend because they think we should is ridiculous. Aside from that, the cost estimator and BATF bids getting cut makes some jobs a loss. I know not every job can be a home run, but you should be in the black on every order unless you screw up and need to fix it. We are all in business for ourselves, we should be able to dictate at what rate we can complete work in, and deny work that can't be completed for that amount.



Expand OUTSIDE of P&P. P&P is just a minor part of my business. I do small building projects, Additions, Remodels, Garages, Install garage doors, Build yard sheds, Do field mowing, Mow for private clients, Roto-till gardens, Haul debris for private clients, Rekey for new owners, Do vacation home maintenance, Build/repair docks Ect. P&P is about 10-15% of my model today compared to 90% in 2009......


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## madxtreme01

mtmtnman said:


> Expand OUTSIDE of P&P. P&P is just a minor part of my business. I do small building projects, Additions, Remodels, Garages, Install garage doors, Build yard sheds, Do field mowing, Mow for private clients, Roto-till gardens, Haul debris for private clients, Rekey for new owners, Do vacation home maintenance, Build/repair docks Ect. P&P is about 10-15% of my model today compared to 90% in 2009......



I really don't like working with customers as they can be a pita, so I've tryed to stayed towards the P&P and REO side of things so I don't have to deal with people on a daily basis, just the RVM's of whatever company is sending me the work


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## safeguard dropout

Craigslist Hack said:


> Why would the client have even entertained this in the first place?


These nationals have people that will work with the person filing the complaint. They will beat them down in settlement price and then make claim on your insurance for the full amount. 

In this case they would tell the homeowner they don't have a solid neglect case against the contractor, "we can offer you $5000 towards a new boiler". Where do ya suppose the remaining $13,000 would go?:vs_whistle: *#@!!**!## crooks.

I haven't done a wint since 2014 and was starting to breathe easy till I read this. Apparently I'm not out of the woods yet.


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## ItGetsBetter

I hope you work it out. Best wishes.


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## Wannabe

Good post Craigslist. We had a similar situation except a realtor had water turned on without having the heating system and broken plumbing fixed. Entire house flooded (3 stories). $170,000 claim. 

Thankfully we did "utility turn ons" in 9 States and made a lot of Late Night friends (best time to call for utility restores was 11pm to 4am) and we got the information who requested what utility was restored and by whom. Saved our bacon!!


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## Ohnojim

*Be sure to bill them for your time defending and*

researching the issue. Make it a crazy high price and demand your money in 10 days, on the 11th day inform the new owner, the old company and their client, of your intent to lien. Also remember to void any discount you may have been extending on the original job, along with late charges. Make them think twice before they try to up their bottom line that way again. I'm through playing with these companies. they will act in good faith or they will suffer costs, even if they don't end up paying me, it will cost them.


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## cover2

Wait until all the "bleach and kilz" fallout comes. YOWZA!!!


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## idaho

Several year ago, I got a order to remove food items (pp order), cap water bibs, clean toliets etc... Owner of the home had passed away. then a few years later I got serve for small claims the max in Idaho 5000.00... children stated there parents were well known for hiding money in food boxes, I thought whatever ...I couldn't hire a lawyer for small claims so I went and lost, Judge told me I could appeal but if it goes to court (where I could have a lawyer) they could be awarded a lot more.

Back then I was cutting a lot of yards that were paying 325.00 (same yards people willing to do for 50 bucks now), getting paid 525.00 to verify house just had two working smoke alarms, lol the good days so I just paid it I should of settled I was so stubborn about it I got a judgement on my credit report. But hey at the time I didn't even know that a judgement could go there.

I really limited the amount of pp work I do to almost none today, because there is no way to protect yourself at least in Idaho if your the one changing the door knobs compared to being provided a lockbox code to gain entry. go figure


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## Zuse

Ok so here is my charge back story's just one of many, and have yet to lose 1 case against me.

One of my crews did an eviction.. The home owner worked out a plan with the bank that all the his stuff that he stored in his shed and was to stay and not be moved. He was out of town at the time of the eviction, the national that Craigslist Hack is talking about that made the claim is the same company.

Well the national never put it on the work order or informed us about the agreement. So if you know anything about evictions you know that you have to do what the cop tells you to because he is under a judges order to remove all personals to the street. And we did just as the Cops ordered us to do and put everything on the street. After the eviction was over the crew and the cops left at the same time, so after about 1 month we get a claim made against us stating that our crew came back to the job and took the guys stuff and we wasn't suppose to remove the personals from the shed.

So i took some action, first i told the national they cant tell the cops where to put the personals or give the cops any orders what to do because they are under a court order to remove all personals to the street.

I contacted the cops and got a written statement stating that we left the same time they left and from the neighbors stating that we never came back and remove anything. But of course the neighbors looted everything after we left.

The claim was 30k, but because we keep detailed records and submitted them to the EO company they refused to pay. Now here is where it get funny after the claim was made i put all my work on hold and had it resigned at the point the claim was made. It took the EO company over 10 weeks to do their investigation, so by the time the denial was made by the EO carrier the National had paid me in full all that they owed me because of the 30 pay scale. So when they received the denial of payment they couldn't back charge me because i was already paid off all money owed to me.

How it gets even funnier, the same company begged me to come back to work for them.

And yes i went back and still work for them today. The guy that got evicted took the bank to court and won a 30k settlement from them. The case was closed and the National signed off on an agreement that they wouldn't come after me at a later date.. So i went back to work for them.

But on a side note im personal friends with the president of my EO carrier. 

Which i must say does come in handy. But my keeping of detailed records has saved my butt more than once.


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## Craigslist Hack

idaho said:


> Several year ago, I got a order to remove food items (pp order), cap water bibs, clean toliets etc... Owner of the home had passed away. then a few years later I got serve for small claims the max in Idaho 5000.00... children stated there parents were well known for hiding money in food boxes, I thought whatever ...I couldn't hire a lawyer for small claims so I went and lost, Judge told me I could appeal but if it goes to court (where I could have a lawyer) they could be awarded a lot more.
> 
> Back then I was cutting a lot of yards that were paying 325.00 (same yards people willing to do for 50 bucks now), getting paid 525.00 to verify house just had two working smoke alarms, lol the good days so I just paid it I should of settled I was so stubborn about it I got a judgement on my credit report. But hey at the time I didn't even know that a judgement could go there.
> 
> I really limited the amount of pp work I do to almost none today, because there is no way to protect yourself at least in Idaho if your the one changing the door knobs compared to being provided a lockbox code to gain entry. go figure


So there was no proof other than my parents sometimes hid money?

I would be living in Costa Rica before I EVER paid a dime to those people. I'm stubborn that way.


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## GTX63

Eviction at a vacant house somewhere along middle earth. Deputy does his thing and leaves. Woman and her kids from a shack down the road come up and asks if she could borrow my crew's trailer. No, my guy says, but if she has a few things to get rid of he'll come down in a few hours and she can toss them on the pile...no charge. They go down and she has mattresses, old furniture, toys and crap. Her house also looks to be a vacant trap. Instead of being charitable, should have burned everything in her yard. Husband/boyfriend comes by while they finish and watch as they leave. Not a word. He calls the national a few days later and said we arrived at the wrong property and took all of his dead aunt's personals out of her house. Crackhead girlfriend was too afraid of a beating to say anything. I contacted the County Sheriff and got a statement from the officer present at the eviction. $13000 got chiseled down to $600 and I told the national they can pay it but we won't. 
"Sir, the woman wasn't authorized to allow you to take those items."
"Mam, I am not your employee. We were not on your job site. What happens with my people is my business.
My guys also admit to losing a Stihl F90 weedeater at the landfill this week. Are you prepared to backcharge me for that? You could have just told the woman to contact me and I would have saved you the trouble of listening to me."
Oh, the stories. 
You know what they say about no good deed....


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## newreo

Preservation Dude said:


> Wow. Incredible post. Thank you for the information. I am currently working for a national and I don't ever recall being informed about the possibility of "backcharging" and I don't think its specified in the contract. Breach of contract? Deliberate withholding of information?
> btw what is AR? Is that work order queue or paid out invoices?
> thanls agin for the vital info!!!



To Preservation dude. 
Before you go to any type of business, you need to learn what AR is. It's your account receivable, ei what someone owes you. 
Backcharging isn't necessary in any contract, however, if you have AR with someone they feel free not to pay you and come up with the reasons. You have two choices: suck it up or sue them/fight over 
The industry became low end low ethic dump where even mature contractors can't deal with it any more.


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## madxtreme01

newreo said:


> To Preservation dude.
> Before you go to any type of business, you need to learn what AR is. It's your account receivable, ei what someone owes you.
> Backcharging isn't necessary in any contract, however, if you have AR with someone they feel free not to pay you and come up with the reasons. You have two choices: suck it up or sue them/fight over
> The industry became low end low ethic dump where even mature contractors can't deal with it any more.



I agree with backcharges when a job isn't done correctly ONLY if you have been paid. So many companies threaten to backcharge you for have work in late. I understand that jobs have due dates and they are important, but if you haven't paid me to do the job, don't expect me to pay someone else to do it just because it is late. They are getting paid no matter what. On the flip side, we don't deserve to be backcharged because of a missing picture or a posting was forgotten. If the job was done correctly that is all that should matter. Pictures justify the work was done, a missing picture doesn't justify the work was done incorrectly


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## ctquietcorner

At the beginning of this year my husband got a "complete at your own expense" work order. While looking it over I noticed it was for a property that he hadn't been to since December 2013. 
The work order was for debris removal first floor, new heating system, remove and replace carpets first floor and a bunch of other stuff that would have been thousand of dollars. 
I was already pissed at seeing it, then I noticed at the very bottom in the special work order notes that it stated. Contractor is to complete all work at their expense due to not properly winterizing the property.

I keep every single work order, photos, everything that has to do with a property on a separate external hard drive. 
I pulled up all the information for the original work order including all our bids, the PCR with all the winterization information on it which stated the copper had been removed from the property, the boiler was removed, and that there was an issue with the city water line below the shut off valve in the house. I also had all the dates and times I contacted the city regarding the water and who I spoke with. 

Long story short MCS had a vendor back in 2012 service the property, but did not report any issues. Of course that hack was no longer with MCS so they went after the next person in line who had been to the property. Now my husband worked through a regional and did not work directly with MCS. So they must have thought it would be easy to screw someone else. 

Well it blew up big time in their face. They got nothing done and the city even had records of speaking with two people at MCS to let them know that there was an issue back in 2012, but they never sent anyone out to meet the city workers at the property to fix the line from the street to the house. 

As of now my husband only does exterior work. He has made more money this year than he has in the last few years.


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## Preservation Dude

Yes I know what Accounts Receivable are. AR can mean anything to anyone, depending on the prism of your glasses. It could mean Automatic Rifle to one dude, and Ass Runt to another.
I was in a conversation the other day with a woman and she spit out some acronym of some legislation involving paid leave if your family member dies. It was like FGHTSFGQ or something. When I asked her what she was referring to, she look at me like I was a martian or something.
Nawn sayin B4N BCNU TTYL TYVM VBG :wink:


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## Preservation Dude

madxtreme01 said:


> I agree with backcharges when a job isn't done correctly ONLY if you have been paid. So many companies threaten to backcharge you for have work in late. I understand that jobs have due dates and they are important, but if you haven't paid me to do the job, don't expect me to pay someone else to do it just because it is late. They are getting paid no matter what. On the flip side, we don't deserve to be backcharged because of a missing picture or a posting was forgotten. If the job was done correctly that is all that should matter. Pictures justify the work was done, a missing picture doesn't justify the work was done incorrectly


I agree with this statement 100%. In fact, I am doing research on this well abused practice in contracting. 
First off, the whole picture taking abuse is a massive lawsuit waiting to happen or a millions of small lawsuits.
Who owns the data?
Just because a hastily written TOS on some website says you don't own the data, think again.
Are you getting paid to upload photos? At what point did you relinquish rights to those photos?
Opinion: An INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR owns all of his own tools, phone, camera, data, as well as liability insured thereon.
Just because you uploaded photos from your phone through an app to a server, does not necessarily mean you have lost all rights to your work.
Theses NAMFS scammers would have you think so and they are abusing this practice of rights to your own work, that is in violation of UCC Code, Labor Laws, Contract Laws, and more.
For instance, PPW says that it will not provide data to contractor "customers" that ask for it.
Do you even understand how bankrupt PPW will be as soon as some bright contractor figures out how to read basic contract case law?
The practice of backcharging is another minefield waiting to blow up in the NAMFS members faces. The fraud, malfeasance, bad faith contracting, deceit, bullying and flagrant violations of UCC code, basic contract law, professional codes and basic human decency and common sense is utterly astounding.


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## newreo

Preservation Dude said:


> I agree with this statement 100%. In fact, I am doing research on this well abused practice in contracting.
> First off, the whole picture taking abuse is a massive lawsuit waiting to happen or a millions of small lawsuits.
> Who owns the data?
> Just because a hastily written TOS on some website says you don't own the data, think again.
> Are you getting paid to upload photos? At what point did you relinquish rights to those photos?
> Opinion: An INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR owns all of his own tools, phone, camera, data, as well as liability insured thereon.
> Just because you uploaded photos from your phone through an app to a server, does not necessarily mean you have lost all rights to your work.
> Theses NAMFS scammers would have you think so and they are abusing this practice of rights to your own work, that is in violation of UCC Code, Labor Laws, Contract Laws, and more.
> For instance, PPW says that it will not provide data to contractor "customers" that ask for it.
> Do you even understand how bankrupt PPW will be as soon as some bright contractor figures out how to read basic contract case law?
> The practice of backcharging is another minefield waiting to blow up in the NAMFS members faces. The fraud, malfeasance, bad faith contracting, deceit, bullying and flagrant violations of UCC code, basic contract law, professional codes and basic human decency and common sense is utterly astounding.


Well, I am actively looking for an attorney to take our case. Once I find one, I will be happy to share details. FAS got sued already, not by us though, we didn't work for them in P&P field


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## Yeah

So which wonderful national was it that tried to pop C.H. with this $18k and Zuse $30k chargebacks?


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## madxtreme01

newreo said:


> Well, I am actively looking for an attorney to take our case. Once I find one, I will be happy to share details. FAS got sued already, not by us though, we didn't work for them in P&P field



FAS is now Assurant.... should I stay as far away from them as possible? What problems have you had?


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## Craigslist Hack

Yeah said:


> So which wonderful national was it that tried to pop C.H. with this $18k and Zuse $30k chargebacks?


Same Exact national actually.

What you guys need to realize here is this is not an issue with a national. It's an issue with a business model.


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## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> FAS is now Assurant.... should I stay as far away from them as possible? What problems have you had?


ASSURANT? Really? Man if you don't know better than this you should QUIT right now. No offense man just run and run fast.


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## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> ASSURANT? Really? Man if you don't know better than this you should QUIT right now. No offense man just run and run fast.



I've been doing loss draft inspections from them for the better part of a year and we are starting to see inspections finally, I would like to get into their P&P end, I have done work for FAS and never had a problem, they just could never give me enough volume.


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## GTX63

A couple things contractors should know about nationals.

The photo requirements are 90% theirs, not the lender. I have yet to have a direct client tell me what I need to upload. Some of the winterization forms I get from a lender (when I do get them) are vague, outdated and poorly written. 
The wint forms you fill out for a national are written by them, and then used to penalize you for anything they want, while leading you to believe it is the "clients guidelines" not the national.

When they refuse payment on a work order due to "deficiencies", they cannot legally bill the client. Not paying for work they bill their customer for would be fraud, on a federal level. How many of your cut invoices and backcharges do you believe the national is eating? Writing off so many open receivables, one wonders how they make any profit? I mean, if it were me, I'd want the sub to do everything possible to make sure the job was in compliance and get a check. Chewing thru newbie subs like candy with perpetual failure. What is the point of "Oh well, can't bill for that one either....next!"

Five Brothers issued a chargeback to us once because of moisture in a basement we didn't catch 4 years earlier. We asked to see the breakdown of charges and information on the contractor they paid to do the work. "We don't divulge that information". Really? A quick trip to the property showed no work had been done.
You have legal rights people.


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## Craigslist Hack

madxtreme01 said:


> I've been doing loss draft inspections from them for the better part of a year and we are starting to see inspections finally, I would like to get into their P&P end, I have done work for FAS and never had a problem, they just could never give me enough volume.


FAS is/was flat out one of the worst companies out there. I know 2 companies personally that they put out of business with their ridiculous QC and payment requirements. 

The ONLY way I would work for them is if I had a family to support, my local McDonald's was fully staffed and I couldn't stand in front of Home Depot. 

Assurant is yet another Parasitic Regional that works for the same people you can just sign up with yourself. If you love giving away 40% of your money so much I'm sure there are half a dozen guys on this board that would help you get work if you kick them 40%. 

Not being a dick here but you guys need to think this stuff through. Look at the BIG picture not just when your next check is coming. You are hurting yourself long term with short term thinking. Everytime one of these companies uses a contractor such as yourself to get a foothold in a market there is less direct work for the local guys. This means that to get work in your area one will HAVE to go through a regional and make crap money. Then guys get on websites such as this one and complain about what regionals pay as they continue to work for them.


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## safeguard dropout

GTX63 said:


> When they refuse payment on a work order due to "deficiencies", they cannot legally bill the client. Not paying for work they bill their customer for would be fraud, on a federal level.
> You have legal rights people.


If it is a large chunk of money you've been erroneously back charged or denied, you have to chase it. But they love to cut a grass cut here and there and you can't go hire an attorney and waste a bunch of time and money on a $50 recut. We all know the "deficient" invoice goes in the same stack as the rest of them. What does anyone suggest is the best way to battle this? They always make the person handing out the $0.00 invoice unreachable. I've always let it go and figure if they get 1 in 200, I was profitable on 99.5% of my work...something a lot of guys can't say. It just hacks me off a little and it starts the cat and mouse game, and most of us are "finding a way to get it back".


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## G 3

safeguard dropout said:


> I've always let it go and figure if they get 1 in 200, I was profitable on 99.5% of my work...something a lot of guys can't say.


:vs_worry:

Doesn't this mind set just give ammo to the nationals to keep doing this? Their thinking of "If I push this one off, and got away with it, maybe I should push 2 off next time" will just snowball, and and spread to more vendors.

I don't allow a single invoice to go short without a fight, if it was from no fault of my own. Yes, it takes time that we all don't have, but I am not going to be the one that opens the box and allow this demon free reign in our world.


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## safeguard dropout

Yes, I agree, screws me and the rest of us. Not taking this sitting down anymore. So the question I still have is: What is the best way to QUICKLY fight through the corporate layers to reverse an illegal invoice denial. Time with family and the kids is so limited this time of year and worth way more than time and money spent/recovered chasing $50.


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## GTX63

A part of the nutshell goes a little like this-
National asset management companies have forecasts of how many properties will be going into foreclosure, what contracts they will be getting, losing, etc.
They project their revenues. Then they sit in meeting with accountants, bean counters and departmental heads and brain storm ways to make more with less off basically just the contractor.

I witnessed it early on in 04 or 05.
Increasing the discount based on scorecards, volume or on new hires.
Penalties for late work or call backs.
Adding more work to initials or a singular job with no price increase.
Making what was formerly an allowable a freebie.
Fine print clauses like no ability to dispute or claim non payment on an invoice after 60 days, when they pay 45-60 days after submitting an invoice.

It is a blood from the turnip method and they get it. They are reinventing it.
Quality, experienced vendors are pushed out in disbelief that anyone will ever work for such rates, yet the rookies are falling over each other to get in line.
New hires have no idea what the going rate used to be for a winterization, and the nationals like it that way. They come on this board and tell you that they pay "Industry standard" and "rates within the law" while at the same time they can make 20% off your labor, then add another 20% as a discount, then average 6%-10% for misc charges and penalties and it is a revenue enhancer. 
The highest standards, the strictest hiring policies, the greatest quality is all touted, but I sort of doubt there are many middle/upper management and CEO types utilizing their own pool of preservation contractors to maintain their personal property. A crew pulling into their driveway with a Yardman and a Black and decker weedeater probably doesn't happen much....
Your ignorance is their bliss.


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## cover2

GTX63 said:


> A part of the nutshell goes a little like this-
> National asset management companies have forecasts of how many properties will be going into foreclosure, what contracts they will be getting, losing, etc.
> They project their revenues. Then they sit in meeting with accountants, bean counters and departmental heads and brain storm ways to make more with less off basically just the contractor.
> 
> I witnessed it early on in 04 or 05.
> Increasing the discount based on scorecards, volume or on new hires.
> Penalties for late work or call backs.
> Adding more work to initials or a singular job with no price increase.
> Making what was formerly an allowable a freebie.
> Fine print clauses like no ability to dispute or claim non payment on an invoice after 60 days, when they pay 45-60 days after submitting an invoice.
> 
> It is a blood from the turnip method and they get it. They are reinventing it.
> Quality, experienced vendors are pushed out in disbelief that anyone will ever work for such rates, yet the rookies are falling over each other to get in line.
> New hires have no idea what the going rate used to be for a winterization, and the nationals like it that way. They come on this board and tell you that they pay "Industry standard" and "rates within the law" while at the same time they can make 20% off your labor, then add another 20% as a discount, then average 6%-10% for misc charges and penalties and it is a revenue enhancer.
> The highest standards, the strictest hiring policies, the greatest quality is all touted, but I sort of doubt there are many middle/upper management and CEO types utilizing their own pool of preservation contractors to maintain their personal property. A crew pulling into their driveway with a Yardman and a Black and decker weedeater probably doesn't happen much....
> Your ignorance is their bliss.


 That's ok cuz me and da boyz is gonna go to work for wellington!! They is buyin us a new yard man and a worx all da equips we needs. We is gonna have a real job! (Don't tell anyone but we is gonna pawn all the equips and tells dem it was jacked in da hood) Dat way we keeps getting new stuff still tryin to figure out how we gets a new truck every week:vs_worry:


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## Craigslist Hack

It's mind blowing that anyone would get into this these days with all the information available on this and other websites. When most of us got in things were different and we had to learn all these lessons the hard way.


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## Preservation Dude

Best way to set precedent to nullify a contract in the future is:
always be asking.
Always be as-king. as a King.
Its in the Bible, its in the UCC Code, its how you win lawsuits.
Always ask the better question.
When in doubt, ask ANY question.
this is where all the power is in contracting.


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## Preservation Dude

safeguard dropout said:


> Yes, I agree, screws me and the rest of us. Not taking this sitting down anymore. So the question I still have is: What is the best way to QUICKLY fight through the corporate layers to reverse an illegal invoice denial. Time with family and the kids is so limited this time of year and worth way more than time and money spent/recovered chasing $50.


1) Keep extremely detailed records. Extreme. Expect to be screwed because the business model comes from Lucifer. Always be keeping a record.
2)Send 3X as many emails and Job Notes as you think you should. Always ask a question in the email. Most of the time they never respond. This is a potential contract nullifier in the future. Silence is acquiescance and if they don't answer your question, they have tacitly agreed with you and you have formed a contract. Contracts are fluid, always changing, and you have more power than you think.
3)Never go silent. Ever. If you don't like the legal language embedded in form emails sent by the processor, you immediately conditionally accept it. Puts it back in their court, if they go silent, you win. And you have a record to prove it.
4) The data is yours. Always download all your pictures to your computer. It must be done within a day or two of job completion. If not, the vultures steal it and claim that you have no rights to even see it, talk about it. Store all work orders, memos, job notes, invoices, scorecards, screenshots, emails everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. Remember, the only way you will win that lawsuit that you are GOING TO FILE, is with a well documented record that you are making on a daily basis.
5) the day will come when you will receive your redemption but it will not come through prayer. It will come through the knowledge that you are at War with a pernicious beast and the only way you will win is through a well crafted strategy. 
:angel:

ed correction: i don't mean to belittle prayer, btw. You may receive redemption through prayer, of course, who am I to judge.
all i am saying is, we are at WAR, and most people just do not get it, they do not understand the scale of it, they have been taught not to see it, or they just can believe it, even when it is crushing their own family and everyone else's families around them. i don't know if its the clinging to the American Dream propaganda or the flouride in the water or the chemtrails or the GMOs or what but no matter what you believe, if you do not realize you are at war, then decimation is just around the corner.


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## safeguard dropout

Preservation Dude said:


> 1) Expect to be screwed because the business model comes from Lucifer.


Ha Ha! Great line!

I just ran through some numbers. I do mainly grass cuts and have chalked up about 22,000 of them in 7 years. In that 7 years, I have had 8 invoice denials.
Comes out to about .00036% in unpaid work. 

So, it hurts me none, except it just pisses me off. Again, doe anyone have a QUICK way to handle these? Is there a legal threat that can be made that will make them roll over? Accounting depts? Who?

I hate spending ANY time on it but it is only setting precedent and feeding Lucifer.


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## Preservation Dude

Mail them an invoice. Send it certified mail return receipt. Cost: $7.
Draft it as a Professional letter including the 7 elements of a commercial contract.
Specify amount of time that they have to respond ie 30 days, 14 days etc.
If they do not respond in time send a REMEDY DEMAND letter and give them 3 days (depending on your state). Again certified mail: $7.
If no payment is procured in 3 days, send 
INTENT TO FILE LAWSUIT LETTER and/or INTENT TO LIEN PROPERTY - get it notarized, and send to the CEO of your company cost $10-15, notary, cert mail $7
If you do not get your money then, file a small claim in your LOCAL court, including treble damages. Cost ~$100
Filing small claims is genius because it will cost them alot of money to send a lawyer to your state to deal w it.
You file for the max allowed because you will get your money, triple damages, legal fees reimbursed, pain and suffering etc.
Usually you starve the beast of 5K or so which then you can feed your family with
Usually you can settle a day or two before court date for around $2500 bucks. Hey, you just saved them $2500, they will love you for it. Not kidding.


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## Craigslist Hack

safeguard dropout said:


> Ha Ha! Great line!
> 
> I just ran through some numbers. I do mainly grass cuts and have chalked up about 22,000 of them in 7 years. In that 7 years, I have had 8 invoice denials.
> Comes out to about .00036% in unpaid work.
> 
> So, it hurts me none, except it just pisses me off. Again, doe anyone have a QUICK way to handle these? Is there a legal threat that can be made that will make them roll over? Accounting depts? Who?
> 
> I hate spending ANY time on it but it is only setting precedent and feeding Lucifer.


In any business there are losses and operating expenses. Sometimes we have to just accept it. I hate this but the guy who owns your local Quick Mart has items just disappear from his store without payment. The best contractor in town has done Freebies for a customer just to keep them happy. Your local School teachers, and coaches have to come in early and stay late without compensation. Some of this is just owning a business.


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## madxtreme01

Craigslist Hack said:


> In any business there are losses and operating expenses. Sometimes we have to just accept it. I hate this but the guy who owns your local Quick Mart has items just disappear from his store without payment. The best contractor in town has done Freebies for a customer just to keep them happy. Your local School teachers, and coaches have to come in early and stay late without compensation. Some of this is just owning a business.



I agree 100% with what you are saying about loosing sometimes, but there is no reason for it. The work was completed on time, correctly and submitted on time and correctly, why should the nationals make more of a profit because it slipped through the cracks. I am willing to take a loss on some jobs where I know it's my mistake, but if the job was done right, why should we all just sit back and take it from these crooks?


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## safeguard dropout

madxtreme01 said:


> why should we all just sit back and take it from these crooks?


Being positive went south in a hurry, huh?


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## madxtreme01

safeguard dropout said:


> Being positive went south in a hurry, huh?



eh that was for a different post, I can still b*tch on this one


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