# Thaw Pricing



## garylaps

I'm sure from this point foreward this winter most houses I'll see with initial secure and winterize will be froze-up. What formula do most of you guys use to bid a controled thaw and how long does a say 2000sf, house take?


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## thanohano44

garylaps said:


> I'm sure from this point foreward this winter most houses I'll see with initial secure and winterize will be froze-up. What formula do most of you guys use to bid a controled thaw and how long does a say 2000sf, house take?


Name your price. I had a guy in Utah who charged bank owned homes $750 for a thaw. Because he felt they weren't working with people. And due to where we serviced and we were the only ones there, we got it every time. He had the only equipment in the area for 3 hrs of driving each way. Unless you knew someone there. I was new to Utah at the time and would just rent what I needed when I needed it. He would charge home owners $150.


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## REO2Rentals

2000 sf -2500 sf = $1890.00
2501 sf - 3500 sf = $2700.00


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## GTX63

Per man, per hour, by distance, equipment and size of the house. Figure what you need to make it work and make a profit.


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## Wannabe

Gary, 

We learned the "hard way" that in Mn a LOT of the Cities require you to pull a Temporary Heating Permit. They don't cost much but the fines are BIG! Also, most of those Cities will not allow Propane Heaters and they must be indirect heaters placed outside home and hooked up to Utility Company Gas at the meter ($250 hookup with Xcel or Connexus). Be sure to include 24 hr monitoring on your bid since that was another requirement. We averaged probably $3500 per thaw and turned EVERY home that we did not get approval on into the City Building Insp office. Within weeks EVERYONE was completing thaws with permits and indirect heaters were hard to find...it didnt help that a new pipeline was being installed across Northern Mn so they were in short supply. I purchased 2 indirect 300,000 btu ducted heaters for only Mn.... that has its own fuel supply (gas/diesel or kerosene) Since we no longer work Mn those heaters are for sale cheap


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## garylaps

WOW... I really had no idea this was such a great big deal. I figured a couple chimney propane heaters for 24-48 hours and monitored three four times a day... I'm in a semi rural area but I'll call the local building officer and see what they have to say. I may be interested in your heaters!!
I may find that I LOVE A MN WINTER :thumbsup:


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## Wannabe

Gary,

WE LOVED MN WINTERS!!!!

If you need to rent then we always got ours from onsiteheat.com great people and they will deliver and set up with all the temp hoses. NO Liability this way and no pipefitters license. We did have 1 stolen though when the guy in the house went to sleep on his cot and discovered (when it got cold) that the dang heater disappeared---in inner city Minneapolis where everything disappears  Good thing we purchased the rental insurance.


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## 68W30

i mean its soup to nuts for this work for instance has it been below zero for a week ? is it a newer home that will hold heat ? or an old drafty farm house etc I had :whistling2:Friend:whistling2: who noted the boiler system was cryo tekked as it was predominantly summer homes in this area 4200 sq feet so he went out got 20 gals of diesel fired the boiler up took his indirect heat pics etc etc went to lunch and made a grand then the break fix repairs ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## BRADSConst

garylaps said:


> I'm sure from this point foreward this winter most houses I'll see with initial secure and winterize will be froze-up. What formula do most of you guys use to bid a controled thaw and how long does a say 2000sf, house take?


I figure 2 guys at least a day (8 to 10 hours) minimum. It takes a long time to thaw a frozen water heater and all manual labor with heat guns under the cabinets to warm up the traps, etc. Don't forget when you blow out the lines and the "snot" comes out of the water heater, you need to bid to replace it. 

This is of course for a decent house on a relatively mild day. Take a run down shack in the ghetto where all the windows are boarded and all bets are off.

Just make sure you bid it figuring the worst. You know damn well the bid will get approved the day of a 3' snow storm in 20 below temps and a wind chill of minu 45. Then I'll be a 24 hour rush job. :icon_rolleyes:


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## wmhlc

You need to look at the protemp heater, they run on kerosone and can thaw a frozoen toilet and water heater in about 2hrs. We use 3 of them and that house is about 80degrees in 1hr. Best heater in the world, I love thawing. Our record is 4 houses at 1000 a pop in 1 day


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## wmhlc

They have them on sale at northern tool for 229.

70000btu forced air best heater in the world, super quiet and they last forever


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## Wannabe

Hell I've seen guys hook up a power cable to the copper lines and energize the piping and melt the ice in 30 minutes BUT would I do this? Heck NO!

A solid freeze to a solid thaw is going to take 2 days minimum.


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## mtmtnman

I WILL NOT use kerosene. They STINK!! A 250,000 btu chimney heater and lots of fans. Heat the house up to about 90* early in the morning. Come back at 5 and it would still be 60*. Heat again to 90*, pull the equipment, lock up for the night and the house was thawed the next day and still around 50* inside.Used to get $1,000 per level but the nationals have gotten cheap......


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## RichR

What is a chimney heater?


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## mtmtnman

RichR said:


> What is a chimney heater?












Just be extremely careful with Propane in houses. Like mentioned earlier, some places do not allow you to thaw this way. We have VERY few regulations of any sort here.....


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## RichR

Thanks
So, are these better than the Torpeedo heaters?






mtmtnman said:


> Just be extremely careful with Propane in houses. Like mentioned earlier, some places do not allow you to thaw this way. We have VERY few regulations of any sort here.....


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## PropPresPro

RichR said:


> Thanks
> So, are these better than the Torpeedo heaters?


Torpedo type heaters will move heat around a house faster as they have fans, but they require power & fuel to operate. Chimney heaters only require fuel.


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## mtmtnman

PropPresPro said:


> Torpedo type heaters will move heat around a house faster as they have fans, but they require power & fuel to operate. Chimney heaters only require fuel.



Ditto that but these put off a LOT of heat and i would not recommend using them without at least 1 fan blowing over top of it as they WILL blister ceiling paint and melt mini blinds..........


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## garylaps

mtmtnman said:


> Ditto that but these put off a LOT of heat and i would not recommend using them without at least 1 fan blowing over top of it as they WILL blister ceiling paint and melt mini blinds..........


Yes these put out alot of heat. I just used two on a job this weekend on a three story 4500sf. they don't like the little {20#) propane bottles as they seem to pitter out and you have to shake the bottle...

As for fans, does anyone have a good 12 volt fan to eliminate the generator aspect here?


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## garylaps

OK, I'm an idiot. Now that I've gotten that out of the way... I gave out a bid back in early Dec. to pump out a hot tub (it was still in the form of "soft" water) thinking that someone would note that things will change quickly here in MN. on something like this. But reality has set in and I now find that the people on the other side of the paperwork have only now seen the wisdom of having this item drained. :furious:........OK, so now what? This thing is now a large ice chunk and there is no way to drain it and I never put in the bid a time frame as to how long my bid was good for.. Lesson learned there, but still have to get thru this order.....SO, what do you think? I'm planning on bringing an ice auger and putting a hole in the middle and dropping down a sump pump, taking all the neccasary pics and submiting a new bid to thaw...? How much?, how long? my $125.00 pumping just turned into how much $$$? to thaw?


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## BPWY

1. never assume these clowns understand any thing, even when you spell it out for them in writing and color pics


2. If its an outdoor hot tub I would tell them that the only thing you can do until spring is to board it.
if its indoor you'll probably want to go $500 for thaw and pump. Maybe more. A block of ice that big is going to take some time to completely thaw!


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## 68W30

garylaps said:


> OK, I'm an idiot. Now that I've gotten that out of the way... I gave out a bid back in early Dec. to pump out a hot tub (it was still in the form of "soft" water) thinking that someone would note that things will change quickly here in MN. on something like this. But reality has set in and I now find that the people on the other side of the paperwork have only now seen the wisdom of having this item drained. :furious:........OK, so now what? This thing is now a large ice chunk and there is no way to drain it and I never put in the bid a time frame as to how long my bid was good for.. Lesson learned there, but still have to get thru this order.....SO, what do you think? I'm planning on bringing an ice auger and putting a hole in the middle and dropping down a sump pump, taking all the neccasary pics and submiting a new bid to thaw...? How much?, how long? my $125.00 pumping just turned into how much $$$? to thaw?



okay generally speaking in case like( cold is coming) this we photo full get it draining take those pics photo empty hold back sets 2 and 3 of the pics write the bid and cross our fingers


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## thanohano44

michael.biasi said:


> okay generally speaking in case like( cold is coming) this we photo full get it draining take those pics photo empty hold back sets 2 and 3 of the pics write the bid and cross our fingers


Yikes. That's like fraud. I wouldn't do it.


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## REO2Rentals

The company will send qc person out to the property between that.

I've seen one of notorious regional vendor - installed digital lock take all required photos and uninstall it


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## SwiftRes

thanohano44 said:


> Yikes. That's like fraud. I wouldn't do it.


I wouldn't really call it fraud. Fraud would be charging for something never performed, such as submitting fake hot tub draining photos for a property that already had an empty hot tub.

We will occasionally do something like this as well. We will install a handrail or something ahead of time, knowing that our bid will get approved in the next week or two. With the distances we cover, it doesn't make sense to drive an hour to install a handrail. Worst case we're out $15 in materials and 15 minutes of labor, best case we get paid for it and don't have to make a second trip back. 

But to gary, i'd just go back to them and say that things changed, and you need to re-bid due to new conditions. While you didn't put a time-frame on the bid, it is just common sense that your bid is assuming no changing conditions. If I bid a trashout, but someone dumps 20 CYD before I get approval, that's beyond my control and needs rebid.


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## BRADSConst

garylaps said:


> OK, I'm an idiot. Now that I've gotten that out of the way... I gave out a bid back in early Dec. to pump out a hot tub (it was still in the form of "soft" water) thinking that someone would note that things will change quickly here in MN. on something like this. But reality has set in and I now find that the people on the other side of the paperwork have only now seen the wisdom of having this item drained. :furious:........OK, so now what? This thing is now a large ice chunk and there is no way to drain it and I never put in the bid a time frame as to how long my bid was good for.. Lesson learned there, but still have to get thru this order.....SO, what do you think? I'm planning on bringing an ice auger and putting a hole in the middle and dropping down a sump pump, taking all the neccasary pics and submiting a new bid to thaw...? How much?, how long? my $125.00 pumping just turned into how much $$$? to thaw?


I learned this the hardway on a pumping bid for a flooded basement last winter. I rebid the damn thing 3 times figuring it would get approved because the broker kept asking why we wouldn't trash it out. Told him there was still 26" of gray water in the basement and we weren't going down there until it was drained (I'm not stepping on something sharp that is submerged). Well, finally the broker got the asset manager involved and the bid magically got approved. Problem was there was now 4" of ice on top. Had to chisel holes in it to do the pump out. Thank god when the pumps started churning up the water, the ice began melting. After that one, I now bid with disclaimers like "good for 15 days" or bid for every possible bad scenario I can think of.


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## thanohano44

SwiftRes said:


> I wouldn't really call it fraud. Fraud would be charging for something never performed, such as submitting fake hot tub draining photos for a property that already had an empty hot tub.
> 
> We will occasionally do something like this as well. We will install a handrail or something ahead of time, knowing that our bid will get approved in the next week or two. With the distances we cover, it doesn't make sense to drive an hour to install a handrail. Worst case we're out $15 in materials and 15 minutes of labor, best case we get paid for it and don't have to make a second trip back.
> 
> But to gary, i'd just go back to them and say that things changed, and you need to re-bid due to new conditions. While you didn't put a time-frame on the bid, it is just common sense that your bid is assuming no changing conditions. If I bid a trashout, but someone dumps 20 CYD before I get approval, that's beyond my control and needs rebid.


Doing work in advance before approval? What happens if the field inspectors show up and take pix of the pool drained and you show water in there after they've showed it was drained? All water off in the house and no snow around it?


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## garylaps

Well I went out to this gig and found the tub only had 1.5" of ice on the top along with the same all around the tub exterior. OK, popped a hole in the ice and pumped out the "soft water". Looking closer at the job order they added "and winterize" to my initial pump out bid... I will be submitting a new bid to "winterize" said tub after it has been thawed, I will state that these jets have already been frozen solid and the damage may have already taken place. IE, system has more than likely compromised.


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## GTX63

thanohano44 said:


> Doing work in advance before approval? What happens if the field inspectors show up and take pix of the pool drained and you show water in there after they've showed it was drained? All water off in the house and no snow around it?


Then you just made a donation to your least favorite charity.


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## thanohano44

gtx63 said:


> then you just made a donation to your least favorite charity.


lol.


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## SwiftRes

It's a risk vs reward thing. I'd rather lose $15 in materials than drive an hour back to a property for $100 and break even, but waste a couple hours of my or my crews time.

Fraud would be the winterizations that some of my competitors perform. Don't drain HWH, don't even gravity empty the lines, but they still charge for a winterization. :whistling2:

Or one of my competitors consistently kicks in doors at houses. Roughly 50-75% of properties they did an initial secure on have a busted up door frame. We were at a $650k house a week ago for something, this competitor just secured it a few weeks previous. The rear door had deadbolt half drilled out, and then had pry marks all down the side of the door where they tried to pry it open. It apparently didn't work and they rekeyed a different door altogether.

We're not perfect, but we attempt to do the best job we can. 

Tangent over.


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## 68W30

GTX63 said:


> Then you just made a donation to your least favorite charity.




but is it deductible 


yea we have made that donation once or twice


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## 68W30

thanohano44 said:


> Doing work in advance before approval? What happens if the field inspectors show up and take pix of the pool drained and you show water in there after they've showed it was drained? All water off in the house and no snow around it?


any before bid approved work would be the very minimal at best we can drain water for free so to speak WTH we are there and we have action shots of water leaving, the work was done , its not fraud , we did it , we just Billed ATF . if it doesnt come back no harm no foul chances are mother nature will refill it for us to re bid


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