# Hmmm, Some case law, Employee VS Sub........



## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

VERY VERY INTERESTING!!!! Here is one case that DIRECTLY affects Property Preservation. Specifically REO work. Lets hear some arguments. Case law is established. Nobody can deny that......... 

"The investigation determined maids were paid a flat rate per house cleaned, regardless of the amount of time it took, and were not compensated for all hours worked, including travel time between cleaning assignments. These practices resulted in maids earning less than the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Employees did not receive additional compensation for overtime hours, and the company failed to maintain accurate payroll records."

http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/whd/WHD20141338.htm

:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

The only thing i can see different than P&P is the company supplied vehicles. Still the part of them paying flat rate is what i am looking at.....


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## newreo (May 30, 2014)

mtmtnman said:


> The only thing i can see different than P&P is the company supplied vehicles. Still the part of them paying flat rate is what i am looking at.....


Unfortunately, these are just middle men that got slapped. I can't wait for SG get that same fine, this is why we left P&P. We were running at 0.1 per hour after we paid our people


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## MKT (May 7, 2014)

With further training in employment law you would understand why your post is irrelevant.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*Well, there is a subsantive difference.*



mtmtnman said:


> The only thing i can see different than P&P is the company supplied vehicles. Still the part of them paying flat rate is what i am looking at.....


At $38-45 and the average maid taking between 15-30 minutes, and if it takes 30, there are extras. After expenses, you are making more like $30-35 and hour. That's a real substantive difference. I think you want to find a parallel so badly, you are seeing one that is not there. There are several other material differences and you are just not seeing them. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are bad actors, and shady dealers, and even some grey areas, but they occur predominantly at the lower tiers. And the smaller shops where people under direct supervision, are paid as 1099, when they should be W-2's. I would bet the farm that a lot of the posters here complaining about national pricing and national mis-classification have employees that they give 1099's and you damn well know it's true. I have been tempted to do it myself.


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

MKT said:


> With further training in employment law you would understand why your post is irrelevant.


falls under under same policy as waiters. Legally speaking. So yes you are correct. so i guess you do realize why SG gets away with what they do in the end it falls under performance issues.


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## newreo (May 30, 2014)

Ohnojim said:


> At $38-45 and the average maid taking between 15-30 minutes, and if it takes 30, there are extras. After expenses, you are making more like $30-35 and hour. That's a real substantive difference. I think you want to find a parallel so badly, you are seeing one that is not there. There are several other material differences and you are just not seeing them. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are bad actors, and shady dealers, and even some grey areas, but they occur predominantly at the lower tiers. And the smaller shops where people under direct supervision, are paid as 1099, when they should be W-2's. I would bet the farm that a lot of the posters here complaining about national pricing and national mis-classification have employees that they give 1099's and you damn well know it's true. I have been tempted to do it myself.


Low doesn't prohibit paying on 1099, but there is a difference between sub and employee. Otherwise this case would not be relevant. IRS defines clearly these differences. I use subs all the time, but I don't dictate them what and how they do. I do require quality work and warranty


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

MKT said:


> With further training in employment law you would understand why your post is irrelevant.



Unfortunately your wrong. I have been working with our states dept. of labor and industry and they are VERY interested in how these nationals are running the game. In fact 22 states are working with the US Dept. of Labor investigating these violations. Among many points they are looking at is the point of a national pulling work from you if you refuse an assignment...........

Here is the map of states looking into these issues..... http://www.dol.gov/whd/workers/misclassification/#stateDetails


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I am quire aware of the law, ans also quite aware of it's abuses.*



newreo said:


> Low doesn't prohibit paying on 1099, but there is a difference between sub and employee. Otherwise this case would not be relevant. IRS defines clearly these differences. I use subs all the time, but I don't dictate them what and how they do. I do require quality work and warranty


and it isn't just P&P, not by a long shot. Just take a quick look down any employment or classifieds, and you will see "contractors" blatantly advertising for 1099 employees, and even outlining the job, clearly defining a position that fits the employee definition. Of course there is some tangential connection with some P&P company somewhere,in this case. The ruling in this case was based on overtime and minimum wage. This appears to be one of those private maid companies, that takes the van around and drops people off, and comes back for them at specific times, clearly that is a regular direction of work hours, and use of company equipment, and supplies. Hell there's a good chance there is a uniform. Here is their website http://www.supermaid.com/index.php?Page=Services Not typically anything like you would find in the P&P world. I also use subs, but they are established private businesses, I also sub work from other contractor doing work from nationals, if they are willing to pay the rate and terms. We all know where the lines are, I did not specifically point my finger at anyone. My statement however is true, and you know it is true. The national companies for the most part are not the main abusers of this law, no way shape or form. It is the guy getting work from the nationals, and subbing it to some other Tom, Dick or Harry, and often Tom, Dick or Harry does not even have insurance or a license.. I see it all the time, and I'm sure you do too.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*You are going to see enforcement increase as the*



mtmtnman said:


> Unfortunately your wrong. I have been working with our states dept. of labor and industry and they are VERY interested in how these nationals are running the game. In fact 22 states are working with the US Dept. of Labor investigating these violations. Among many points they are looking at is the point of a national pulling work from you if you refuse an assignment...........
> 
> Here is the map of states looking into these issues..... http://www.dol.gov/whd/workers/misclassification/#stateDetails



employer mandate of ACA, Obamacare kicks in. What did you think they were going to do with the tens of thousands of new IRS agents the law creates?


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Ohnojim said:


> What did you think they were going to do with the tens of thousands of new IRS agents the law creates?


Apparently not answer the phones or helplines.


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## Trey9007 (Nov 20, 2013)

Ohnojim said:


> employer mandate of ACA, Obamacare kicks in. What did you think they were going to do with the tens of thousands of new IRS agents the law creates?


 Just a side note...They only asked for about 1,200. Many of them are being used to ensure people are maximizing the tax credits they are eligible for. 


http://www.factcheck.org/2011/02/irs-and-the-health-care-law-part-ii/

As we have seen before, the increased staffing needed at the IRS to administer the many tax changes in the health care law has generated a lot of misinformation. In March 2010, wedebunked Rep. Ron Paul’s false claim that the IRS would hire "16,500 armed bureaucrats" to enforce the law. We called his statement "wildly inaccurate." Now we know exactly how wild and inaccurate it is.


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## Craigslist Hack (Jun 14, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> Unfortunately your wrong. I have been working with our states dept. of labor and industry and they are VERY interested in how these nationals are running the game. In fact 22 states are working with the US Dept. of Labor investigating these violations. Among many points they are looking at is the point of a national pulling work from you if you refuse an assignment...........
> 
> Here is the map of states looking into these issues..... http://www.dol.gov/whd/workers/misclassification/#stateDetails


In my city it's the unions and the licensed contractors who are raising the fuss. This industry needs regulation like no other.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*A four year old link from factsmuck*

don't mean S#$t to me. Do you seriously think the number of agent will go down? Did you see the update to the site,just weeks after the original* another 1600 the number has likely expanded in the 4 years since that update. Debunked my a$$. Factcheck, contrary to their ominous sounding name, is not a credible source, in fact they have an obvious big government slant. I will try to find some real numbers for you. 

*_Update, Feb. 23: In an earlier version, we said that we would update this post if we got more information regarding the IRS request to hire an additional 1,653 FTEs to carry out the president’s fiscal year 2011 policies. We did get a response from Treasury spokeswoman Sandra Salstrom and we updated this post to reflect her comments. 

That brings the number to 20% of Ron Paul's prediction, years before one person got ACA insurance. Hardly insignificant and clearly not debunked. 
_


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## Trey9007 (Nov 20, 2013)

Craigslist Hack said:


> In my city it's the unions and the licensed contractors who are raising the fuss. This industry needs regulation like no other.



I don't blame them! The funny thing about unions, is that people are always calling them lazy. But every time there's something negatively effecting American workers, the unions are usually the ONLY ones actually WORKING to stop it.

I often use the term "the legal, illegals" to describe workers who are misclassified as contractors. Legal citizens, with an illegal working classification The legal, illegals, do much more damage to wages in an industry than those we commonly call 'illegals'. That's sad thing illegals have very little choice on their working conditions, where as the the legal illegals have all the rights this country has to offer.

Legal illegals hurt wages and industry. Good to see the licensed contractors are getting involved on this one as well.


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## MKT (May 7, 2014)

Zuse said:


> falls under under same policy as waiters. Legally speaking. So yes you are correct. so i guess you do realize why SG gets away with what they do in the end it falls under performance issues.


 Very complex subject which I prefer not to get into. My opinion is that the direction of these opinions is not in the best interest of the majority.


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## cover2 (Apr 3, 2013)

Biggest violator of employee/contractor debate.. FED EX Ground and Home delivery. They have been fighting drivers and lawyers and the government for years. So I would not expect anything to come out of the preservation industry for a long while. Fed Ex contractors are 99% closer to being classified as employees than a contractor in the preservation industry.


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## hammerhead (Apr 26, 2012)

It has started. 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/waldlev...r-firms-working-with-independent-contractors/


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## cover2 (Apr 3, 2013)

I'm waiting on my payday from that well known package delivery company for 10 yrs of "contracting" when they controlled every aspect of my "business" Money was decent but the control was overwhelming. Your hands were tied and you were micromanaged beyond belief.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I had no idea those guys were even contracors*



cover2 said:


> I'm waiting on my payday from that well known package delivery company for 10 yrs of "contracting" when they controlled every aspect of my "business" Money was decent but the control was overwhelming. Your hands were tied and you were micromanaged beyond belief.


It's hard to believe you can drive a company truck, have minute by minute supervision, wear a uniform, etc. and still be a contractor. That blows my mind.


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

hammerhead said:


> It has started.
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/waldlev...r-firms-working-with-independent-contractors/



Unfortunately of that $10M almost half will go to lawyers and their fees...which leaves crumbs for the BOTG. I won't be holding my breath.


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## cover2 (Apr 3, 2013)

Ohnojim said:


> It's hard to believe you can drive a company truck, have minute by minute supervision, wear a uniform, etc. and still be a contractor. That blows my mind.


 Every FedEx ground and home delivery truck, van, semi, step van is owned by a contractor. It used to be RPS but fedex bought them in 98 and rebranded the whole fleet. It is by far the most profitable branch of FedEx and they will fight tooth and nail to protect the "contractor" model because of the profitability. Taxes, DOT regulations, insurances, workman's compensation and unemployment insurance are all the responsibility of the "contractor". Most guys driving those trucks are working for a contractor and making about 1/3 of what UPS drivers make with a large percentage not getting any benefits. It a win win for fedex and a lose lose for the drivers. As a contractor you could not hire a driver unless they were "approved" by FedEx. They have literally bankrupted many contractors nationwide with their ruse. The only guys making somewhat serious cash are the line haul guys that own semis, delivery contractors and their drivers are the "rented mules" and treated as such.


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

MKT said:


> Very complex subject which I prefer not to get into. My opinion is that the direction of these opinions is not in the best interest of the majority.


Agreed, But does the EOC and IRS have the resources and staff to interpret law they themselves wrote compared to corporate staffed lawyers trained in interpretation of ever changing law.

Example: Government contracting out work to 3rd parties with zero over site, a quite common practice.

To "Quote" you : My opinion is that the direction of these opinions is not in the best interest of the majority.

That was Hilarious...


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## MKT (May 7, 2014)

Zuse said:


> Agreed, But does the EOC and IRS have the resources and staff to interpret law they themselves wrote compared to corporate staffed lawyers trained in interpretation of ever changing law.
> 
> Example: Government contracting out work to 3rd parties with zero over site, a quite common practice.
> 
> ...





The EEOC & IRS only have to do so much. Same situation as any other form of law, as soon as enough evidence is put together it will be forwarded onto the proper team of attorneys based on how much $ is involved. 

My quote was based on my opinion that contractors who subcontract would be investing a lot more into legal counsel.


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## hammerhead (Apr 26, 2012)

P3+ said:


> Unfortunately of that $10M almost half will go to lawyers and their fees...which leaves crumbs for the BOTG. I won't be holding my breath.


true but maybe its a start for the future contractors


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

MKT said:


> The EEOC & IRS only have to do so much. Same situation as any other form of law, as soon as enough evidence is put together it will be forwarded onto the proper team of attorneys based on how much $ is involved.
> 
> My quote was based on my opinion that contractors who subcontract would be investing a lot more into legal counsel.


Thats why thought your comment was humorous, because for most of us contracting out work cant find an informed lawyer that has any knowledge of the type of work we do or doesn't have the funds the afford such expenses.

The way you worded that statement most exultant. 

The lines are so blurred between the law and what actually goes on in the field for the most keep the smaller company off the radar. But SG is vary close to working their way up the latter to investigation along with a few others.

But the some of the company i do work for are vary mindful of how much they can push and do indeed back off when confronted case law.

But then again Banks make big donations to political party's which intern keep the dogs at bay and their serveries. But i do expect that to change near term. 

But the way you worded that statement had me rolling in the floor. really good stuff. Short, right to the point and a slam dunk.


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## MKT (May 7, 2014)

Zuse said:


> Thats why thought your comment was humorous, because for most of us contracting out work cant find an informed lawyer that has any knowledge of the type of work we do or doesn't have the funds the afford such expenses.
> 
> The way you worded that statement most exultant.
> 
> ...




Glad you liked it. I actually had to put exultant into the dictionary, great word by the way.

For anyone interested I found an EEOC workbook that helps determine Employee vs. Independent Contractor status. Link posted below.

http://www.eeotraining.eeoc.gov/images/content/9E 3rd Party Contractor Workbook - kravetz.pdf


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## mille63 (Mar 20, 2014)

Trey9007 said:


> Just a side note...They only asked for about 1,200. Many of them are being used to ensure people are maximizing the tax credits they are eligible for.
> 
> 
> http://www.factcheck.org/2011/02/irs-and-the-health-care-law-part-ii/
> ...



There is very little factual about factcheck.org (a left-wing propaganda mill, no matter how much they falsely claim to be non-partisan), so I'm more inclined to believe the (wacky) little guy who believes in less government. Besides, we were all there to see the IRS commissioner smirk over the oh-so-conveniently timed computer crash at the IRS when Lois Lerner's emails were subpoenaed. And we all heard him lie under oath that they had exhausted all options to retrieve the crashed hard drive. When he says he has no funds to help old people and the low-income earners to get their tax refunds, you can be quite confident that he's lying about that too.

Don't we all remember that Obamacare "will save the average family $2,500" and "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period."

All lies.


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> VERY VERY INTERESTING!!!! Here is one case that DIRECTLY affects Property Preservation. Specifically REO work. Lets hear some arguments. Case law is established. Nobody can deny that.........
> 
> "The investigation determined maids were paid a flat rate per house cleaned, regardless of the amount of time it took, and were not compensated for all hours worked, including travel time between cleaning assignments. These practices resulted in maids earning less than the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Employees did not receive additional compensation for overtime hours, and the company failed to maintain accurate payroll records."
> 
> ...


Funny how things come home to roost...I have been saying that the industry is full of EMPLACTORS....an Employee incorrectly classified as an Independent Contractor with specificity to the Property Preservation Industry...

EVERYONE needs to file a complaint with the IRS....they will shake it out...also another avenue to pursue is your local EUID....or your unemployment office...they are being cheated out of tax monies and WILL go get it...

Also if a company is not licensed to conduct business in your state.....


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## Cleanupman (Nov 23, 2012)

this is the state of the industry....


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## Trey9007 (Nov 20, 2013)

mille63 said:


> There is very little factual about factcheck.org (a left-wing propaganda mill, no matter how much they falsely claim to be non-partisan), so I'm more inclined to believe the (wacky) little guy who believes in less government. Besides, we were all there to see the IRS commissioner smirk over the oh-so-conveniently timed computer crash at the IRS when Lois Lerner's emails were subpoenaed. And we all heard him lie under oath that they had exhausted all options to retrieve the crashed hard drive. When he says he has no funds to help old people and the low-income earners to get their tax refunds, you can be quite confident that he's lying about that too.
> 
> Don't we all remember that Obamacare "will save the average family $2,500" and "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period."
> 
> All lies.


Please consider meeting me and others here: http://www.preservationtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3887&page=5


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

Trey9007 said:


> Please consider meeting me and others here: http://www.preservationtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3887&page=5


"Others You Say" From the looks of that thread it was just me and you going at it!!

Other than then occasional drive by post, but its good to see you back.. :yes:

I would have made a comment about the political nature this turned too , but one of the MOD's would have slapped my hand again..


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## PropPresPro (Apr 12, 2012)

Zuse said:


> ...I would have made a comment about the political nature this turned too , but one of the MOD's would have slapped my hand again..


Alright, let's stay on topic Zuse :bangin:


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