# Five brothers ripping off contractors-lawsuit



## AZRAP

Last Friday, I learned about the Complaint filed in US District Court for New Jersey ex.rel., Kelly Brown vs. Five Brothers Case NO. 14-cv-03036. The complaint details not only how Five Brothers fraudulently bilked the American tax payers out of Millions, BUT also how Five Brothers cheated money from its own contractors. There are too many allegations to list here but I am considering a Class action suit against Five Brothers. Anyone interested in a copy of the documents I have and who is interested in a Class Action against Five Brothers, please let me know. Thanks.


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## Craigslist Hack

AZRAP said:


> Last Friday, I learned about the Complaint filed in US District Court for New Jersey ex.rel., Kelly Brown vs. Five Brothers Case NO. 14-cv-03036. The complaint details not only how Five Brothers fraudulently bilked the American tax payers out of Millions, BUT also how Five Brothers cheated money from its own contractors. There are too many allegations to list here but I am considering a Class action suit against Five Brothers. Anyone interested in a copy of the documents I have and who is interested in a Class Action against Five Brothers, please let me know. Thanks.


Why stop at Five Brothers? Might as well get them all. It's the same with every single company out there.


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## PPArt

I'd like to see the details on this. Is there a link you can post to the documents?


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## brm1109

*put this into google and it comes up.*

US District Court for New Jersey ex.rel., Kelly Brown vs. Five Brothers Case NO. 14-cv-03036


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## AZRAP

*Five brothers ripping off contractors*

Here is a link to read the now unsealed complaint.

http://foreclosurepedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Sealed-Complaint.pdf


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## PPArt

Is anyone here a grass vendor for them? If so do they give you the work through another co? I've found this to be extremely suspicious but maybe this is another way to raise prices to the bank and pay less to the contractor.


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## AZRAP

No, they have their "preservation contractors" perform the initial and grass recuts and they are issued via work order by Five Brothers.


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## PPArt

I find this interesting because this is not the case for everyone. Prior to grass season, counties are awarded but all orders are issued to a third party co that then issues them to the contractor. All emails are sent to this third party and then forwarded to the contractor and vice versa despite this contractor being a direct vendor.


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## JDRM

AZRAP said:


> Last Friday, I learned about the Complaint filed in US District Court for New Jersey ex.rel., Kelly Brown vs. Five Brothers Case NO. 14-cv-03036. The complaint details not only how Five Brothers fraudulently bilked the American tax payers out of Millions, BUT also how Five Brothers cheated money from its own contractors. There are too many allegations to list here but I am considering a Class action suit against Five Brothers. Anyone interested in a copy of the documents I have and who is interested in a Class Action against Five Brothers, please let me know. Thanks.


Thats old news


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## AZRAP

Old news? Not to me and many others out there. This case hasn't been resolved yet so it is still relevant. It is relevant to the Five Brothers 'contractors' who are still being screwed and don't know it.


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## GreenOrchid11

AZRAP said:


> Old news? Not to me and many others out there. This case hasn't been resolved yet so it is still relevant. It is relevant to the Five Brothers 'contractors' who are still being screwed and don't know it.



Thank u. I sent u an email


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## JDRM

AZRAP said:


> Old news? Not to me and many others out there. This case hasn't been resolved yet so it is still relevant. It is relevant to the Five Brothers 'contractors' who are still being screwed and don't know it.


It has already been resolved.


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## mcpepper

*Yet...*



JDRM said:


> It has already been resolved.


JDRM, you say it's been resolved, as if to brush it off, however I'm sure others are as interested in this as I am. I would like more information... I have worked for Five Brothers for 6 years, with great success (and skepticism) about these EXACT issues raised in the lawsuit. They're are HUGE changes coming with Five Brothers, and I would like to know more of the outcome of this lawsuit.


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## PropPresPro

mcpepper said:


> . . .They're are HUGE changes coming with Five Brothers. . .


Like what?


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## Craigslist Hack

mcpepper said:


> JDRM, you say it's been resolved, as if to brush it off, however I'm sure others are as interested in this as I am. I would like more information... I have worked for Five Brothers for 6 years, with great success (and skepticism) about these EXACT issues raised in the lawsuit. They're are HUGE changes coming with Five Brothers, and I would like to know more of the outcome of this lawsuit.



He's not brushing it off it's been settled. As for the changes or issues you have with 5 brothers that's all on you. Accept responsibility for your actions. If they ask you to do something you don't want to do and you do it. That's not 5 brothers fault that's your fault. Learn to say no.


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## JDRM

I know the man who filed suit, it has been settled. I do not know details, and he dont want to talk about them. The Bros are one of the biggest scammers in the game....


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## Wannabe

Another classic example of a "settled" suit with a presumed gag order so results can't be found?


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## JDRM

mcpepper said:


> JDRM, you say it's been resolved, as if to brush it off, however I'm sure others are as interested in this as I am. I would like more information... I have worked for Five Brothers for 6 years, with great success (and skepticism) about these EXACT issues raised in the lawsuit. They're are HUGE changes coming with Five Brothers, and I would like to know more of the outcome of this lawsuit.


It is nowhere near resolved for those of you working for them. He called them out on it, many others let them get away with it. They are crooks!


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## mcpepper

JDRM said:


> I know the man who filed suit, it has been settled. I do not know details, and he dont want to talk about them. The Bros are one of the biggest scammers in the game....


To my knowledge, this is the first lawsuit filed by a contractor with the EXACT allegations I would make...It's literally a "copy and paste" deal if I were ever to file suit... I'm sure there is some kind of gag order or something, but it would be incredibly helpful to others, me included, to know if the suit was successful. I can't be the only one out there that would allege these same complaints if we knew we could be successful in pursuing them. Ideological as it may be, this industry is a mess with fraud and corruption, and I would do my small part to make it better.



Craigslist Hack said:


> He's not brushing it off it's been settled. As for the changes or issues you have with 5 brothers that's all on you. Accept responsibility for your actions. If they ask you to do something you don't want to do and you do it. That's not 5 brothers fault that's your fault. Learn to say no.


I'm not sure why you assume I need a pep talk about taking responsibility...I came here looking for information on this lawsuit...As I mentioned above, it's the first I've seen that outlines things as I would. It's a matter of right and wrong, and defrauding HUD/contractors/whoever will only ruin this industry. Property preservation has been good to me for almost 10 years, and I would like to see it continue to be profitable for many more years to come. I have been very successful working for Five Brothers, and continue to be as I write this. Once you know the scam and that the game is rigged, it actually makes it easier to be successful with them.



PropPresPro said:


> Like what?


I'll say this...and maybe only for my area, maybe not...When houses sit for 2, 3, 4 years or more, not being conveyed, with 5 pages of sign in sheets, bid after bid after bid, approval after approval, for b.s. items holding up conveyance, people take notice. So far as I know, not on the federal level, but state agencies have been stepping in with their own contractors to move these homes through the system. To my knowledge, this pertains to FHA homes only, but I'm not sure 100%.


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## Craigslist Hack

mcpepper said:


> I'm not sure why you assume I need a pep talk about taking responsibility...I came here looking for information on this lawsuit...As I mentioned above, it's the first I've seen that outlines things as I would. It's a matter of right and wrong, and defrauding HUD/contractors/whoever will only ruin this industry. Property preservation has been good to me for almost 10 years, and I would like to see it continue to be profitable for many more years to come. I have been very successful working for Five Brothers, and continue to be as I write this. Once you know the scam and that the game is rigged, it actually makes it easier to be successful with them..


MY point is if any contractor believes what 5 brothers or any other company is doing or asking them to do is illegal, immoral, or against local code that contractor has the choice to say no. More contractors need to tell these companies no. It doesn't take a lawsuit it takes a backbone and many don't have that. You may I don't know you, it's clear everyday that many of the guys in this industry just do whatever the client asks regardless of right or wrong. They are scared they will lose that volume.


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## GTX63

mcpepper said:


> To my knowledge, this is the first lawsuit filed by a contractor with the EXACT allegations I would make...It's literally a "copy and paste" deal if I were ever to file suit... I'm sure there is some kind of gag order or something, but it would be incredibly helpful to others, me included, to know if the suit was successful.


I don't think it is a stretch to say the plaintiff settled for the amount of his suit plus costs, signed a confidentiality agreement and the defendant admitted no wrong doing or culpability. So yes, it was successful, as far as that one contractor was concerned.


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## Craigslist Hack

GTX63 said:


> I don't think it is a stretch to say the plaintiff settled for the amount of his suit plus costs, signed a confidentiality agreement and the defendant admitted no wrong doing or culpability. So yes, it was successful, as far as that one contractor was concerned.


I took them to court and won. I never had to sign a confidentiality agreement. I would not have either.


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## PPArt

I'd like to stay posted on if there will be a class action suit. I'm sure I can come up with plenty of evidence. They obviously didn't learn anything from that last suit and they won't learn anything by telling them no. We all know there's a long line of wanna be contractors that they will treat fairly for a short time.


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## GTX63

I have taken clients to court as well; I was thinking there more to the case than
the typical civil suit over a nonpayment.


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## Craigslist Hack

GTX63 said:


> I have taken clients to court as well; I was thinking there more to the case than
> the typical civil suit over a nonpayment.


My brother is my attorney and he basically told me that if I'm going to stay in this industry I should probably seek new counsel. In short he believes anyone who signs up with a national deserves everything they get. The agreements they send are one sided and basically screw the contractor. We have won every time we have gone after a client. We have lost each time we tried to enforce a non compete. 

:vs_cool:


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## mcpepper

GTX63 said:


> I have taken clients to court as well; I was thinking there more to the case than
> the typical civil suit over a nonpayment.


+1...This is why my interest was peaked. The level of fraud to the fed is the problem I see with Five Brothers. It's what drives my fear that enough fraud will lead to changes in the industry which would greatly impact all of our businesses...It has gotten bad enough to bring me to seek out this forum...I don't think there will be a preservation industry in the years to come if things don't change, but like was said earlier, if we just say no to their b.s., they just go down the line to the next guy who doesn't care or doesn't get it yet. Does nothing for my business, my family, my subs who all rely on me.

Throwing my hat in the ring in regards to a class action suit...I would be on board as well if anything were to get traction moving forward.

Also, what is everyone's experience with the lawsuits you have filed and won? I may be lucky, but the worst I've ever been hit with nonpay/backcharges is a couple hundred bucks here and there...not worth the hassle. The times it's been more than that, simply threatening mediation/litigation got me an immediate payment for the items under dispute.  My thought has always been why sue over $5k in a relationship that produces $200-300k a year? Do you still work for the same clients after the lawsuit? Is my thinking flawed?


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## GTX63

Why put a dog down that only bites a couple people per year?
So what if my wife slept with every guy in Beantown? Beantown isn't very big.
My boss constantly berates me, but only when I'm at work.
Everyone has their own size pot to hold bs. They are all different sizes.

Short answer about lawsuits.
I've never lost a collection. Never collected on a lot of them either. Just got the judgement, leined the property, got an order to show assets, etc.

Nationals will backcharge you until your shorts won't stay up anymore, and they will still send you work orders. My experience on instigating disputes with them however is the opposite; It is the last dollar from them you will ever get.


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## PPArt

There is a lot of bullying by five brothers also. "If you don't complete this ridiculous no charge, we'll send out another contractor and back charge you" and "if you don't complete at the reduced rate, we'll send another contractor out and you can pay the difference". 
They are the greediest and nastiest company I have ever worked with, or should I say worked for.


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## GTX63

When they send notice to you of a backcharge, ask to see proof that another contractor was paid the amount you lost.

True story repeated to me first hand.

National-"That information is private."
Sub-"Oh really. You can take money from my invoices without anything other than your word?
"Who is the contractor?"
National-"We don't release that information."
Sub-"So I was charged $1500 for a damp basement I supposedly missed two years ago, that another contractor had to repair, yet I just l left the mentioned property and no work has been done. Can you explain that?"

2 hours later the department head calls-
"Mr. X, we are held responsible for the property by the client if it isn't maintained to their clearly outlined standards. If it doesn't convey, we have to cover those costs."
Sub-"Has anyone been to the house since we were two years ago? Have any reps from your company reviewed any photos or documents from anyone else...ever?"
National-"The condition of the basement clearly did not develop overnight. This could have been prevented."
Sub-"You get a flat tire on the way home tonight. Will you be billing sears for the tires you bought two years ago?"
National-"Surely you understand our position."
Sub-"If the money you took from me hasn't paid for repairs, where did the money go? Was the client billed for the work I did? Has he been refunded for the work I did?"
National-(repeats)"Surely you understand our position."
Sub-"I'm sorry it has come to this as well. Expect a letter from our attorney and a notice of intent to lien the house and a date before the judge."

Third call 30 minutes later-
National-"We have decided to offer you the opportunity to continue working for us Mr. X. If you are willing to accept responsibility for the damage to the house we can put this matter behind us and avoid interrupting your flow of new orders. If you choose to pursue this legally, we will agree to reimburse your funds, however you will no longer be a member of our team, effectively immediately. What is your decision."
Sub-"Transfer me to accounting so I can make sure they send the check certified."


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## mcpepper

Similar story in regards to backcharges:

Happened to me 4 weeks ago:

Received check by mail. Detail showed ($5,300.00) for WO1234567. Searched for work order number, no records in my history or accounting details. Called and asked for explanation. Keeping to same format as above...

FB: This is a backcharge for removal and installation of carpet and vinyl at 123 Main St. for failure to report feces and urine stained carpet.
Me: I have no record of this at all. No No Charge order, no emails, no phone calls, pertaining to this issue.
FB: I understand and see that you were never notified. This happens from time to time on "Aged Loans" as we are trying to quickly move them along, sometimes skipping the No Charge process in order to expedite the completion. You were not notified and another contractor was sent to complete the work at your cost.
Me: Obviously I dispute this, what are the steps you would advise me to take?
FB: You will need to fill out the "Contractor Dispute Form" and send to appropriate inbox.
Me: OK. 

In filling out this form, I stated my objections. In short: No notice given at all. No way for me to now dispute the claim, as the carpet and vinyl has been replaced. Carpet was not stained with feces/urine. Spots included markers, crayons, dirt, etc, none of which are affecting conveyance and do not require bidding. And here's what I think helped me...In the dispute, I asked for a copy of the work order issued to the other contractor and proof of payment to the other contractor. Since I paid for the work, I now "own" that work order. Proof of feces/urine stained carpet. To please advise where in my signed contract it states that this is the procedure for backcharges. What, other than litigation/arbitration as outlined in out contract, are the next steps to take to resolve this to my acceptance?

In one week, I received an email stating that a check request has been initiated for a refund of the full amount of the backcharge. I never received the order, photos, or payment detail requested.

I don't know if this is a one-time success or a successful formula for dealing with these, but it worked. It was not a valid backcharge, and as of today, I have not received the money back yet, but I'm sure it will come. I have never had a "check request initiated" email without a payment coming in the next few billing cycles.


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## PPArt

I've noticed they have stopped notifying contractors when they make deductions. They used to send an email.


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## safeguard dropout

mcpepper said:


> Similar story in regards to backcharges:
> 
> Happened to me 4 weeks ago:
> 
> Received check by mail. Detail showed ($5,300.00) for WO1234567. Searched for work order number, no records in my history or accounting details. Called and asked for explanation. Keeping to same format as above...
> 
> FB: This is a backcharge for removal and installation of carpet and vinyl at 123 Main St. for failure to report feces and urine stained carpet.
> Me: I have no record of this at all. No No Charge order, no emails, no phone calls, pertaining to this issue.
> FB: I understand and see that you were never notified. This happens from time to time on "Aged Loans" as we are trying to quickly move them along, sometimes skipping the No Charge process in order to expedite the completion. You were not notified and another contractor was sent to complete the work at your cost.
> Me: Obviously I dispute this, what are the steps you would advise me to take?
> FB: You will need to fill out the "Contractor Dispute Form" and send to appropriate inbox.
> Me: OK.
> 
> In filling out this form, I stated my objections. In short: No notice given at all. No way for me to now dispute the claim, as the carpet and vinyl has been replaced. Carpet was not stained with feces/urine. Spots included markers, crayons, dirt, etc, none of which are affecting conveyance and do not require bidding. And here's what I think helped me...In the dispute, I asked for a copy of the work order issued to the other contractor and proof of payment to the other contractor. Since I paid for the work, I now "own" that work order. Proof of feces/urine stained carpet. To please advise where in my signed contract it states that this is the procedure for backcharges. What, other than litigation/arbitration as outlined in out contract, are the next steps to take to resolve this to my acceptance?
> 
> In one week, I received an email stating that a check request has been initiated for a refund of the full amount of the backcharge. I never received the order, photos, or payment detail requested.
> 
> I don't know if this is a one-time success or a successful formula for dealing with these, but it worked. It was not a valid backcharge, and as of today, I have not received the money back yet, but I'm sure it will come. I have never had a "check request initiated" email without a payment coming in the next few billing cycles.


Sounds like you handled them well and it's good you'll be getting your money. But...

It is clear they tried to steal $5,300 from you and they should be convicted of conspiracy to commit robbery. Now that you know EXACTLY what these people are, why would you continue to work for and put money in the pockets of Five Felons?


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