# SG and debris removal



## Guest (May 30, 2012)

I was wondering if anyone else has issue with SG cutting invoices for debris removal or it's just us


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## HollandPPC (Sep 22, 2012)

NEWREO said:


> I was wondering if anyone else has issue with SG cutting invoices for debris removal or it's just us


Nope. SG always pays me on time and always the correct amount. They never do invoice adjustments. Solid company with a bunch of cool headed well rounded individuals. 
On a serious note spend 5 minutes and read through the forum. It's funny how people are quick to post a question because they are to lazy to do research.


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

I actually read and post here occasionally. I am posting under different name not to be recognizable. I wasn't saying that they are not paying or paying incorrectly. I specifically asked if someone sees adjustments on debris removals after the FACT after invoicing. We didn't see it before. Fewer with dumpsters, more with trailers. In the forum many mention that there are issues, wanted to know if there is a trend and if it's getting worse. Since there are not many CVs we see recently, I can't comment on those, when last year debris removals bids on those were cut a lot, but since we don't remove debris from them, we didn't care. Now with FHA that becomes concerning as this wasn't happening before. 
I had two trailers loaded and I was told that there are 5 QY total. That is insane, not to mention that they wanted to cut 60 QY to 20 with the two dumpsters on site. I am wondering how others are handling this


mad:


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## HollandPPC (Sep 22, 2012)

NEWREO said:


> I actually read and post here occasionally. I am posting under different name not to be recognizable. I wasn't saying that they are not paying or paying incorrectly. I specifically asked if someone see adjustments on debris removals after the FACT after invoicing. We didn't see it before. In the last year there are issues with the debris. Fewer with dumpsters, more with trailers. In the forum many mention that there are issues, wanted to know if there is a trend and if it's getting worse. Since there are not many CVs we see recently, I can't comment on those, when last year debris removals bids on those were cut a lot, but since we don't remove debris from them, we didn't care. Now with FHA that becomes concerning since this wasn't happening before.
> I had two trailers loaded and I was told that there are 5 QY total. That is insane, not to mention that they wanted to cut 60 QY to 20 with the two dumpsters on site. I am wondering how others are handling this
> 
> mad:


If you don't like the crap they put you through dont work for them. Simple enough right?


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

Fair enough, but I could think about it on my own. That wasn't issue before, but resurfaced recently. It's probably obvious that if I wanted to quit, I would give my notice. What I was looking for - for suggestions from others who recently had same issues. I can give many advises on my own and advising to quit, probably will not be the one, since it's old and I would definitely consider doing so once I can pick up someplace else. If I was looking for suggestion to quit or not, I would specifically ask that question up front.


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

NEWREO said:


> Fair enough, but I could think about it on my own. That wasn't issue before, but resurfaced recently. It's probably obvious that if I wanted to quit, I would give my notice. What I was looking for - for suggestions from others who recently had same issues. I can give many advises on my own and advising to quit, probably will not be the one, since it's old and I would definitely consider doing so once I can pick up someplace else. If I was looking for suggestion to quit or not, I would specifically ask that question up front.


I understand where you are going with that statement.But why be shady with a different name.You should know by know Safeguard is the worst to work for.You say you have other name and made posts but the safeguard bashing has never vanished.

If i did a job of 60 cy at 30 per yard just throwing numbers out and they cut my bid to 20 cubic yard at 30 per yard I would quit.If you don't quit you should quit after losing roughly $1200.00 a job you are just as bad a safeguard as you are letting them get away with it.


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

MKM Landscaping said:


> I understand where you are going with that statement.But why be shady with a different name.You should know by know Safeguard is the worst to work for.You say you have other name and made posts but the safeguard bashing has never vanished.
> 
> If i did a job of 60 cy at 30 per yard just throwing numbers out and they cut my bid to 20 cubic yard at 30 per yard I would quit.If you don't quit you should quit after losing roughly $1200.00 a job you are just as bad a safeguard as you are letting them get away with it.


They paid for 60 QY eventually. But cut the last invoice.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

_If you wanted to quit you would give your notice?_
Your a contractor. If your finally tired of the beat down you just tell them so, or more politely, that your no longer accepting trashout orders from them.
I only see an increase of their kickbacks due to the increase in hacks doing their work. They have always had a percentage of orders that they decided to cut. That hasn't changed. Snakes are snakes, tigers are tigers, lambs are lambs.


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

I agree that they had some cuts before, we personally didn't have any cuts on trash-outs until recently, but wonder if there is a wind because FAS had issues and now SG is more concerned about how many QY is billed to the clients. As we noticed when we have dumpsters standing and filled - no questions, nothing, issues only with trailers. The one where we had 60 QY - we had two dumpsters, thanks goodness sec one was different color. Now I am thinking, if we should we start marking dumpsters and trailer such as #1, #2????? Issue we recently had: debris was packed in the construction bags, they told me that they look same and I guess they didn't know how many trailers were there: one or two, they missed pick up truck on the pictures. I don't want to get dumpster on each and every trash-out. They also generally good, but this debris business gives headache. We heard that last year HUD was sending letters in large amounts recouping moneys for debris as not supported by pictures. Not sure if this is still an issue as many sales were on hold and we didn't see too many post-sales.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

My last SG trash out took 3 dumpsters. I took multiple photos with all 3 in each one, I took dumpster number photos too.

Along with 6 or 8 of the load on the truck.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Did you submit tape measurements of your dumpsters/trailers with the job?

IMHO most of the time they aren't lowering the count to be shady, but because it's hard to tell from the photos so they "round down" to make a point that we need better photos showing dimensions. Remember, these are typically the more peon type people that are QCing these orders.

I do feel the pain sometimes when I have a crew do a cleanout that I wasn't at, then try to estimate how many CYD we cleaned out from their photos, it can be difficult. Luckily I know the length/height/width/etc of my trailers or any dumpster I order.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2012)

Good Point. I will submit measurements of the trailer next time. 
Thank you for idea


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

You in Iowa by chance?


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> Did you submit tape measurements of your dumpsters/trailers with the job?
> 
> *IMHO most of the time they aren't lowering the count to be shady,* but because it's hard to tell from the photos so they "round down" to make a point that we need better photos showing dimensions. Remember, these are typically the more peon type people that are QCing these orders.
> 
> I do feel the pain sometimes when I have a crew do a cleanout that I wasn't at, then try to estimate how many CYD we cleaned out from their photos, it can be difficult. Luckily I know the length/height/width/etc of my trailers or any dumpster I order.








I strongly disagree. 


When they or their client, and its not SG that only does this...... cuts your estimate by half........... yeah they are trying to jack the contractor. 

I had one a few months ago. Told them there was 80 there, they thought 50, so did their client. Just goes to show that there is no way they can tell from the before pics how much is there. I was on site and missed it by 35.
Its ignorant and arrogant of these guys to think they can train a low level peon to correctly estimate from pics. Especially when the stuff is all scattered around the house/yard/garage. If the exiting home owners were so nice as to leave it all stacked in the garage in one pile then maybe!

Ended up being 115 measured in a dumpster. Part of my w/o notes included "I told you so".


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

BPWY said:


> Its ignorant and arrogant of these guys to think they can train a low level peon to correctly estimate from pics. Especially when the stuff is all scattered around the house/yard/garage. If the exiting home owners were so nice as to leave it all stacked in the garage in one pile then maybe!
> 
> Ended up being 115 measured in a dumpster. Part of my w/o notes included "I told you so".


That is right. That is why companies like Safeguard now want contractors to pile the crap in the middle of the room and photo, break down the entertainment centers and computer desks and photo. Write your counts on a dry erase board and stand next to each pile for a mug shot. They tell you it is so they can better ensure accurate load counts and avoid chargebacks to you, the kindly vendor. Truth is, your just doing more work for them, for nothing. There is no gain to compacting your debris and taking more photos since they won't pay for it. You just add your time and labor for their benefit.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Exactly!!!!


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> That is right. That is why companies like Safeguard now want contractors to pile the crap in the middle of the room and photo, break down the entertainment centers and computer desks and photo. Write your counts on a dry erase board and stand next to each pile for a mug shot. They tell you it is so they can better ensure accurate load counts and avoid chargebacks to you, the kindly vendor. Truth is, your just doing more work for them, for nothing. There is no gain to compacting your debris and taking more photos since they won't pay for it. You just add your time and labor for their benefit.


WOW! I have heard they pay about the same as FAS and Cyprexx on the CYD. If that is true , Safeguard is out of there mind.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

STARBABY said:


> WOW! I have heard they pay about the same as FAS and Cyprexx on the CYD. If that is true , Safeguard is out of there mind.


No they are not, because there are newbs signing on with them all of the time. This is a reoccurring theme and they are smart enough to see the idiots.
They no longer pay for paint removal as a hazard. Ran into this with them a while back. 30'x40' morton building with almost 600 five gallon buckets of paint. They pay the regular debris rate. If it is lead based, take it to a EPA approved facility and you are allowed to charge 10% above your cost (with a letterhead receipt). LOL...thanks but no thanks.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

That's my point though, even you were off by 35 CYD, and you aren't a "low level peon" you are someone that does this often. It's darn near impossible to get an accurate count from photos, regardless of your experience, which is why they want measurements and such of the debris in trailers/dumpsters. So in this situation, I assume you got paid for the 115 CYD because you took good photos of the debris in the dumpsters. So really the estimate being 50 or 80 CYD doesn't matter, as long as the end photo documentation backs up what was actually removed. 

Try bidding Cyprexx 80 CYD, having it approved, then removing 115 CYD and telling them you want paid for the add'l 35. IMHO that's why I like SGs system better. 

Also, I don't believe SG has ever asked me to put things in the middle of the room and break it down, they do want a whiteboard showing counts of each room, though.



BPWY said:


> I strongly disagree.
> 
> 
> When they or their client, and its not SG that only does this...... cuts your estimate by half........... yeah they are trying to jack the contractor.
> ...


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> Also, I don't believe SG has ever asked me to put things in the middle of the room and break it down, they do want a whiteboard showing counts of each room, though.


Management was in Chicago last year for their "Required" training seminar. Safeguard rep giving the class stated it was easier to rake everything into the middle of the room, photo it with a yard stick or the pvc 36"x36" frame for verification, than it was to have to wander from corner to corner bent over and picking everything up. I knew then he had never done a trashout before. Even their best intentioned reps have swallowed the pill or they couldn't do what they do.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> That's my point though, even you were off by 35 CYD, and you aren't a "low level peon" you are someone that does this often. It's darn near impossible to get an accurate count from photos, regardless of your experience, which is why they want measurements and such of the debris in trailers/dumpsters. So in this situation, I assume you got paid for the 115 CYD because you took good photos of the debris in the dumpsters. So really the estimate being 50 or 80 CYD doesn't matter, as long as the end photo documentation backs up what was actually removed.
> 
> Try bidding Cyprexx 80 CYD, having it approved, then removing 115 CYD and telling them you want paid for the add'l 35. IMHO that's why I like SGs system better.
> 
> Also, I don't believe SG has ever asked me to put things in the middle of the room and break it down, they do want a whiteboard showing counts of each room, though.






As a 1x vendor my bid is my bid and the rate is full HUD. $50 per.
So even at 115 when I get paid for 80 I won't be going in the hole.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

GTX63 said:


> Management was in Chicago last year for their "Required" training seminar. Safeguard rep giving the class stated it was easier to rake everything into the middle of the room, photo it with a yard stick or the pvc 36"x36" frame for verification, than it was to have to wander from corner to corner bent over and picking everything up. I knew then he had never done a trashout before. Even their best intentioned reps have swallowed the pill or they couldn't do what they do.








What is dreamed up in the board room by completely non experienced individuals is not easy.

If it was easy this industry would not be in the mess it is in.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2012)

BPWY said:


> As a 1x vendor my bid is my bid and the rate is full HUD. $50 per.
> So even at 115 when I get paid for 80 I won't be going in the hole.


only ones I have found that pay that NFR and 5 brothers. all the others are less than half of that.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Banging this drum starts to hurt my ears so I'll try and post a more positive thread this time. Here is a forumla I have used in every business endeavor I succeeded in. It works over and over again.
The guys I have that do good work, I pay them more money. I do everything I can to keep them busy and working for me. The more and better work they do, the less I have to.
The guys that are slackers or slow, I use them until I know better and I let them go.
If I am such a Nancy that can't do your trashouts and roof tarps the way you want, get rid of me. Don't issue me a billing penalty, or a chargeback, or a hold, etc. That is just a bs way of putting your hand on the back of my neck and bending me over. Companies sincere in doing quality work don't keep sub par contractors on the payroll.
I am a pure capitalist. These Nationals are not capitalists. Greed is not capitalism.
Oops, went negative again...


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

That's if you're doing HUD work, which generally applies to gov't loans. REO work is usually a different animal. On HUD work with SG we aren't required to take any whiteboard photos, etc. I only take before/after and load photos(sometimes w/ measurements of load). 

REO work is a different animal with SG which requires the whiteboard photos and such. It's not paid by HUD guidelines. You must be doing work such as post-sale FHA for them if you're getting the HUD rate.



BPWY said:


> As a 1x vendor my bid is my bid and the rate is full HUD. $50 per.
> So even at 115 when I get paid for 80 I won't be going in the hole.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Sure, but just because it was discussed at a seminar by one rep doesn't make it one of their requirements, so for people to state that SG now wants people to break everything down and pile it in the middle just isn't true. I have never had them even mention that to me.



GTX63 said:


> Management was in Chicago last year for their "Required" training seminar. Safeguard rep giving the class stated it was easier to rake everything into the middle of the room, photo it with a yard stick or the pvc 36"x36" frame for verification, than it was to have to wander from corner to corner bent over and picking everything up. I knew then he had never done a trashout before. Even their best intentioned reps have swallowed the pill or they couldn't do what they do.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> That's if you're doing HUD work, which generally applies to gov't loans. REO work is usually a different animal. On HUD work with SG we aren't required to take any whiteboard photos, etc. I only take before/after and load photos(sometimes w/ measurements of load).
> 
> REO work is a different animal with SG which requires the whiteboard photos and such. It's not paid by HUD guidelines. You must be doing work such as post-sale FHA for them if you're getting the HUD rate.






What they call their 1x vendors aren't restricted to one thing like full time is.
I've done, REO, HUD, FHA etc etc etc for them.
I cover jobs that they typically cannot find any one else to get done. 
Paying extra trip fees etc. 

If they jack me on this last trash out they'll be hunting a new sucker.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm fulltime and we aren't restricted to one thing. I do P&P and REO. You don't get HUD regs on REO work though do you?



BPWY said:


> What they call their 1x vendors aren't restricted to one thing like full time is.
> I've done, REO, HUD, FHA etc etc etc for them.
> I cover jobs that they typically cannot find any one else to get done.
> Paying extra trip fees etc.
> ...


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

REO is $32.50 per yard.


This is the first I heard they'll let the full timers do all the work.
No surprise, doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency with SG.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Yeah, just making sure.

I cover a large rural zone, so that might be part of it, they have also been very busy around here. Doing a hazard claim repair as well.



BPWY said:


> REO is $32.50 per yard.
> 
> 
> This is the first I heard they'll let the full timers do all the work.
> No surprise, doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency with SG.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

It does seem that some of the rules get bent a bit for rural work.
Other wise they can't get it all done.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Yeah. Zone is prob 2 hrs wide by 2 hrs tall. I get some trip fees for work within my zone. 



BPWY said:


> It does seem that some of the rules get bent a bit for rural work.
> Other wise they can't get it all done.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

2 hrs that's all??

That would be nice.
I've done plenty of over night stays doing jobs nobody else will.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Zone is that big. I am located 1 hr south of the start of the zone, I don't live in the zone. Next week I have an eviction requiring 6 people that is 3 hrs away. I have a 10 month old and a wife that is a nurse working overnights so can't stay out of town much. 



BPWY said:


> 2 hrs that's all??
> 
> That would be nice.
> I've done plenty of over night stays doing jobs nobody else will.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

They don't assign me a zone. 

Thats why I'm a 1x vendor. I've done work as far as 6 hrs one way away.
They'll throw me a handfull of w/os and trip fees on each. It adds up and provides some winter 
work and activity.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

That is the best way to do it. You control your work and are more like a contractor.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

Got an email from SG on another WO where we submitted the bid for 30 QY with pictures taken all over and each room photographed from different angles

Remove Interior Debris

for the amount of: $1500.00

This bid exceeds fair and reasonable pricing, and therefore
has been reduced to the amount of $ 950.00
What that suppose to mean? 


Had another work order to bid repair wholes in the roof. called from site. Said that there are wholes in the roof which is also base of the balcony. I was told that bid desk doesn't care about balconies and looking at the pictures she thinks that the issue with the area around chimney. I said it's fine, but ceiling collapsed right under that area where we DO SEE wholes all over. She asked me how much to repair. I gave a price which I do find more than reasonable and I was told that we (meaning us) are not getting such moneys out of "THEM". 
I really have to wonder what is happening. The reason why I called in any way, to see if we can just tarp. The bid desk gal went on after I said key word balcony. GRRRRR


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

There's one or two of the bid desk people that I do not like dealing with, and there are others that are nice. Hit and miss. 

One lady went off on me this past winter when I called from site because I did not say "Good morning" when she answered. I explained to her it wasn't that great of morning because I was in a house that was 20 degrees trying to measure things and being bounced back and forth between my regional and bid desk. I consider myself pretty polite on the phone, but she was not.



NEWREO said:


> Got an email from SG on another WO where we submitted the bid for 30 QY with pictures taken all over and each room photographed from different angles
> 
> Remove Interior Debris
> 
> ...


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

ALSO, I'd mention details of what you just said in your damage report on the WO as far as balcony/chimney discussion. CYA.




NEWREO said:


> Got an email from SG on another WO where we submitted the bid for 30 QY with pictures taken all over and each room photographed from different angles
> 
> Remove Interior Debris
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> ALSO, I'd mention details of what you just said in your damage report on the WO as far as balcony/chimney discussion. CYA.


Just say no.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

No?


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> No?


Sorry, I meant say "say no" to the previous post in which the trash out bid was reduced from $1500 to $950. I didn't know how to edit.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Ah got it. Yes, say no. Also talk w/ your regional. Sometimes the bids really don't matter much as they are not going to move forward with debris, depends on type of property.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

NEWREO said:


> Got an email from SG on another WO where we submitted the bid for 30 QY with pictures taken all over and each room photographed from different angles
> 
> Remove Interior Debris
> 
> ...


What that means is the bid is no longer yours. 
This goes back to an earlier discussion. If my plumber was sent on a call to repair Joe Blow's septic and he gave the guy a quote of $800 and the guy told him he was going to pay him $300 and made him think he had to do the job, he might dot his eye but he would most certainly leave. The bottom line is, if you don't like my price, get someone else. Don't jerk my chain and tell me what your going to pay me and make me believe I have no say in the matter.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

No, bid is not mine any more. That was FHA loan.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

The one thing that SG does that just makes my butt itch is when they send me an email stating they have reduced my before BEFORE sending it to the client.

every time they do that, I want to beat the crap outta something.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Wait until they send you bid approval. 


You look at it and go ...WHAT????

Call em up..... oh yeah, we cut it and didn't tell you. 
Or the client cut it...... BS!


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Victim#23 said:


> The one thing that SG does that just makes my butt itch is when they send me an email stating they have reduced my before BEFORE sending it to the client.
> 
> every time they do that, I want to beat the crap outta something.


I'm sure they are just lying about that to make you do it for less. That would really be there problem for underbidding when they had your bid.


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## Gypsos (Apr 30, 2012)

When people have tried that crap with me I tell them to pack sand and get someone else. 

I can sit at home and go broke. I don't have to work for it.


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## brm1109 (Sep 17, 2012)

*I just don't understand this*

I understand that there are not many nationals that are liked. However; I can't figure for the life of me why with so many complaints and so many times issuing unwarranted charge backs do you folks still do work for Safegaurd.
Obviously it is a losing proposition working for them. I know they have contacted me several times and each time I say no. Either because of their stupid insurance requirements or just their reputation.
Once they can't get enough people to do the work for them they will go bye-bye.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

We don't do regular business with them. We did get a gut full. We take work from them on a case by case basis. That is the only way we can guarantee a profit. But it wasn't always like that and now I hope by sharing what we went thru we can save others the grief.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

brm1109 said:


> I understand that there are not many nationals that are liked. However; I can't figure for the life of me why with so many complaints and so many times issuing unwarranted charge backs do you folks still do work for Safegaurd.
> Obviously it is a losing proposition working for them. I know they have contacted me several times and each time I say no. Either because of their stupid insurance requirements or just their reputation.
> Once they can't get enough people to do the work for them they will go bye-bye.


In seven months I've never had a chargeback. Occasional invoice reduction on dispute on Cyds or something but debris is prob on 30% of my business with them.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> In seven months I've never had a chargeback. Occasional invoice reduction on dispute on Cyds or something but debris is prob on 30% of my business with them.


I have work for sg for 4 years and today I got a letter that one of the home owners is suing me and safeguard for lost personnels and mold removal and treatment. The safeguard lawyer has me doing a ton of paperwork so hoping it gets thrown out.

It doesn't have a dollar amount on the charge but it doesn't look good. We didn't even complete any debris removal on the property just a mold adabement. Crazy you can get in trouble for stuff you didn't even do.

So make sure you take plenty of pics because they can come at any time. They have sent me charge back from 3 years ago so it takes time to get them


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

wmhlc said:


> I have work for sg for 4 years and today I got a letter that one of the home owners is suing me and safeguard for lost personnels and mold removal and treatment. The safeguard lawyer has me doing a ton of paperwork so hoping it gets thrown out.
> 
> It doesn't have a dollar amount on the charge but it doesn't look good. We didn't even complete any debris removal on the property just a mold adabement. Crazy you can get in trouble for stuff you didn't even do.
> 
> So make sure you take plenty of pics because they can come at any time. They have sent me charge back from 3 years ago so it takes time to get them


How much have your chargebacks been for out of curiosity?


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

SwiftRes said:


> How much have your chargebacks been for out of curiosity?


Less than 100. I have had maybe 10. We do around 300k in orders a year so its not a big deal. But the newest one with the legal letter doesn't have an amount, I talked to my insurance agent and she said it could be around 10k if the evidence goes in the home owners way. I don't see how it could because we didn't complete any debris removal on the property


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

Yeah and one homeowner getting that upset after probably over 1000 homes isn't too bad. Those are the situations insurance is for. Had a property Wednesday that had 2'-3' tall grass, homeowner showed up right when they got there. Home was still loaded of nice personals, I had to speak with her to calm her down, but by the end of the conversation she was thanking us for mowing as her mower had broken 

We obviously did not enter property, just mowed.



wmhlc said:


> Less than 100. I have had maybe 10. We do around 300k in orders a year so its not a big deal. But the newest one with the legal letter doesn't have an amount, I talked to my insurance agent and she said it could be around 10k if the evidence goes in the home owners way. I don't see how it could because we didn't complete any debris removal on the property


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Chargebacks and suits/complaints are two completely different things.
Chargebacks are part of their business model.
We have spoken with Safeguard reps, current and former vendors regarding the formal complaints. The note that Safeguard does not take a position in these matters is bs. Once the complaint is filed, it automatically goes to an attorney retained by Safeguard who is paid from your policy. They gather the complaint and your story. They are not _"on your side"_ they are there to mitigate and resolve the issue as quickly as possible. We are aware of dozens if cases where the contractor was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

Wmhlc,

The loss for the personals will be $20k and up. The way it works is this: Any claim on lost personals of less than $10,000 will be paid plus the atty fee's which will run approx $17,000 per case. I swear the Service Companies get a DISCOUNT %% of the atty's also!

Your insurance will be non-renewed for the theft claim (that is how it will be reported to the clue bureau) even though NO police or district atty theft charges are filed. 

Start getting another business name and pay for ANOTHER insurance policy NOW before the claim is on the clue report. 

As far as the mold abatement that will BE ON YOUR OWN EXPENSE unless you have a Commercial Pollution Liability policy. This could be in the $1,000's especially if you demo'ed part of the home or if it turns into a liability claim for mold exposure from an abatement not to S520 guidelines.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

Chargebacks are "just a fact of life" in the P&P field and normally doesn't start "coming in" for the first couple years then WHAM. Its not a reflection of the quality of the work...its a $$ grab from the Nationals. A good friend of mine was a "HIGH UP employee" with a national for many years and he always told us about the MEETINGS that was being held on How to Chargeback more $$ from contractors to increase the Service Companies Bottom LINE. At least we always got a "headsup" on what the next new method was........

Just mark up your bids by the %% of chargebacks and in effect chargeback the service company.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

FremontREO said:


> Wmhlc,
> 
> The loss for the personals will be $20k and up. The way it works is this: Any claim on lost personals of less than $10,000 will be paid plus the atty fee's which will run approx $17,000 per case. I swear the Service Companies get a DISCOUNT %% of the atty's also!
> 
> ...


Have you been thru one of these claims?

I have pollution insurance so it I'm not worried about that stuff. Not sure how I can be held liable for the missing personnels when we didn't remove any debris. Nothing on the claim about mold exposure or anything like that, it just says paint on studs. The paint is shockwave fungicide as requested by safeguard, spray on all studs, ceiling, joists, and floors. Plus I have a clearance test so I don't see how I have to pay anything.

When I talked to the safeguard lawyer she said they send this to everybody that was sent to the property, so I'm guessing at least 5 contractors all have the same cliam as me.


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## SwiftRes (Apr 12, 2012)

wmhlc said:


> Have you been thru one of these claims?
> 
> I have pollution insurance so it I'm not worried about that stuff. Not sure how I can be held liable for the missing personnels when we didn't remove any debris. Nothing on the claim about mold exposure or anything like that, it just says paint on studs. The paint is shockwave fungicide as requested by safeguard, spray on all studs, ceiling, joists, and floors. Plus I have a clearance test so I don't see how I have to pay anything.
> 
> When I talked to the safeguard lawyer she said they send this to everybody that was sent to the property, so I'm guessing at least 5 contractors all have the same cliam as me.


My guess is that it doesn't matter if you did debris removal if personals were present while you were there as you could still be considered a suspect. Now if debris removal was already completed when you arrived then you might be in better standing.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

wmhlc said:


> Have you been thru one of these claims?
> 
> I have pollution insurance so it I'm not worried about that stuff. Not sure how I can be held liable for the missing personnels when we didn't remove any debris. Nothing on the claim about mold exposure or anything like that, it just says paint on studs. The paint is shockwave fungicide as requested by safeguard, spray on all studs, ceiling, joists, and floors. Plus I have a clearance test so I don't see how I have to pay anything.
> 
> When I talked to the safeguard lawyer she said they send this to everybody that was sent to the property, so I'm guessing at least 5 contractors all have the same cliam as me.


Yep I've been through "one of these" 4 times 

DO NOT listen to the Safeguard lawyers...notify your company and retain your own council. 

If you have a passing clearance test than you should be ok on the treatment process but the homeowners lawyer will ask for the scope and guideline procedures. The only thing is if you demo'ed and the homeowner reclaimed the home and wants the rebuild done at your expense. Personally I quit using the "colored" encapsulators and use ONLY the clear coatings when working on a foreclosed home since you can be held liable for the "loss of value" since any future purchaser will know there was a mold situation which decreases value.....this is not covered under ANY policy (CGL or CPL). 

As far as the missing personals.....Swift is correct...you were on the property and are a suspect unless it was trashed before you were there BEFORE you stopped to do your bidding. 

What the big crock is that the Service Company will turn the blame onto the contractor that is still "working for them" since its easier to get $$ from them than a contractor that has quit. 

If you want more information just drop a p.m. and I can tell you what we did to get out of 1 of the claims...otherwise we paid 3 times....or our insurance paid but we paid the $5000 deductible 3 X.


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## GTX63 (Apr 12, 2012)

Two quick claim stories from contractors, both friends, who did work for Safeguard. First claim, they did 20K of mold remediation per SG directives. That was the first mistake. House sells 6 months later. Family noted respiratory issues and has new air samples taken. Failed. Yep, they contacted their attorney, who contacted the previous bank, who contacted SG, who notified the vendor. They were effectively put out of business.
Second Vendor pulls into a rural town to complete a trashout. Crackhead lady accross the road sees them working and asks them to haul away some pissy mattresses and junk furniture. Ten days later she calls Safeguard off the sticker on the door and claims they stole all of her personals out of her house. The Safeguard attorney told my friend "Don't worry, it sounds bogus, bla bla". Yeah, they paid the gal $1600 against my buddy."
Fremont is correct, get your own council and don't sit around hoping that Safeguard has your best interest in mind.
We have had two claims in 7 years against us, and while nowhere near the cost, were just as stupid.


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## BPWY (Apr 12, 2012)

Such sheet just pisses me off about this industry. 

Trucking is very similar. Any interaction with a truck that results in physical damage or injury is 
automatically assumed to be 100% the driver's fault and then you have the mistaken assumption 
that truck companies are filthy rich like Bill Gates. Far from the truth.

It really makes me angry that folks are so unscrupulous as to go so far out of their way just to screw over the working man. 
Where are the democrats in all of this?????????? Probably bellied up to the hog trough themselves.
But they CLAIM to be for the working man....... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


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