# Explain Property Preservation



## Guest

Give me a minute, I am working on moving a bunch of posts


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## RichR

Glad to see that all the non P&P guys still come around here to spread their wisdom. Without their vast knowledge, where would we be. :thumbsup:


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## TNTSERVICES

RichR said:


> Glad to see that all the non P&P guys still come around here to spread their wisdom. Without their vast knowledge, where would we be. :thumbsup:


Glad to see that you guys still need us to spread wisdom. Any time we can help, let us know.

I am still trying to unravel the mystery of P&P. Apparently you can only understand if you do re-cuts for $14.

But here's what I know. You sign up with companies who send you work like lawn maintenance, board up, winterizing, and the like. They require you to jump through a million hoops for little pay, you then go on the internet and whine about the whole process and that it's not fair. Fill in the blanks or just say that there is no way for our feeble minds to grasp the complicated thing called P&P.

BTW: last time I looked this is the land of opportunity. The first step of getting out of the hole is to stop digging!


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## Gypsos

TNTSERVICES said:


> There isn't anything special or traditional about estimating. You have overhead that needs to be covered, you have payroll that needs to be covered, you have growth that needs to be covered, and you have profit that needs to be made. How it is any different? Either you can cover those items or you: go bankrupt, have angry employees (or go hungry yourself), don't plan on buying anything new or to make your job better or more profitable, or you don't like to save for a rainy day or your later years.
> 
> I don't see why P&P guys think that their profession is special and the normal rules of business don't apply. It seems to me that there are better ways to make money, but you would rather take what someone gives you and complain about the pay and their expectations you will forever be miserable.


You do not have a clue. For over 15 years I worked for commercial GCs, Drywall contractors and Framing contractors. I have managed entire companies and estimated thousands of commercial construction projects and managed hundreds of them. My projects ranged from a few hundred dollars to over eight million dollars. 

While the same rules apply as far as OH&P. P&P is a different animal altogether. One of the big differences is the volume and the deadlines.
Picture having 50 jobs awarded to you on the same day and all of them have to be completed within a week. You have to provide hundreds of pictures documenting all phases of the work from the start to the finish. 

The pictures have to be date stamped and uploaded in a specific format by a specific deadline or they are rejected and you do not get paid or you are fined for late submissions.

Then someone who has no clue as to what your job entails reviews the pictures and cuts your price when they feel the pictures do not justify the costs. 

Any jobs that are not completed on time result in either a back charge or refusal to pay. 

Since you agreed to cover all work in a specific territory when you decline a job they hire someone else to do it and if it costs more than the price you bid, or the price they estimated you would have bid if you did not bid it, you are charged the difference.

There is little you can do about the back charges because it is taken from your next draw and if you complain too much, or lien a property, they will never ever give you work again, which sounds fine until you realize that you are going to be without any work until you find a new customer to replace them and if you do not find someone fast your competition will be doing a trashout on your house. 

P&P is a special kind of business. The simple fact is that most regular contractors could not handle this type of work because it does not follow the rules of traditional work or business. It has its own rules. It is chaotic.

In traditional contracting you know about most jobs weeks or months in advance of starting them and you have an organized schedule to follow that orchestrates the order of the work and keeps the project flowing. 

In P&P it is about as close to complete chaos as you can get and still have a plan. Almost every decision is reactionary because you have little or no time to plan. 

How would your jobs run if every day you showed up at the office and had to check your emails and fax machine to see what you and your crew was going to be doing that day and for the next few days?

At most you usually only get a few days to plan and proceed with a project. 

P&P operates on a seven day schedule and there is no overtime, ever. Period. Charge overtime if you want, you just won't get the work. 

I find it comical when the regular contractors stray outside their areas of expertise and offer sarcastic or, at least from the perspective of a P&P Contractor, just plain stupid comments or advice.


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## Guest

TNTSERVICES said:


> Glad to see that you guys still need us to spread wisdom. Any time we can help, let us know.
> 
> I am still trying to unravel the mystery of P&P. Apparently you can only understand if you do re-cuts for $14.
> 
> But here's what I know. You sign up with companies who send you work like lawn maintenance, board up, winterizing, and the like. They require you to jump through a million hoops for little pay, you then go on the internet and whine about the whole process and that it's not fair. Fill in the blanks or just say that there is no way for our feeble minds to grasp the complicated thing called P&P.
> 
> BTW: last time I looked this is the land of opportunity. The first step of getting out of the hole is to stop digging!


I was thinking that this was so fitting



> Chapter 1
> 
> I walk down the street.
> There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
> I fall in.
> I am lost ... I am helpless.
> It isn't my fault.
> It takes forever to find a way out.
> 
> Chapter 2
> 
> I walk down the same street.
> There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
> I pretend I don't see it.
> I fall in again.
> I can't believe I am in the same place.
> But it isn't my fault.
> It still takes a long time to get out.
> 
> Chapter 3
> 
> I walk down the same street.
> There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
> I see it is there.
> I still fall in ... it's a habit.
> My eyes are open.
> I know where I am.
> It is my fault.
> I get out immediately.
> 
> Chapter 4
> 
> I walk down the same street.
> There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
> I walk around it.
> 
> Chapter 5
> 
> I walk down another street.
> 
> 
> ~ Portia Nelson ~


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## Guest

Gypsos said:


> You do not have a clue.
> 
> One of the big differences is the volume and the deadlines.
> 
> Picture having 50 jobs awarded to you on the same day and all of them have to be completed within a week. You have to provide hundreds of pictures documenting all phases of the work from the start to the finish.
> 
> The pictures have to be date stamped and uploaded in a specific format by a specific deadline or they are rejected and you do not get paid or you are fined for late submissions.
> 
> Then someone who has no clue as to what your job entails reviews the pictures and cuts your price when they feel the pictures do not justify the costs.
> 
> Any jobs that are not completed on time result in either a back charge or refusal to pay.
> 
> Since you agreed to cover all work in a specific territory when you decline a job they hire someone else to do it and if it costs more than the price you bid, or the price they estimated you would have bid if you did not bid it, you are charged the difference.
> 
> There is little you can do about the back charges because it is taken from your next draw and if you complain too much, or lien a property, they will never ever give you work again, which sounds fine until you realize that you are going to be without any work until you find a new customer to replace them and if you do not find someone fast your competition will be doing a trashout on your house.
> 
> P&P is a special kind of business. The simple fact is that most regular contractors could not handle this type of work because it does not follow the rules of traditional work or business. It has its own rules. It is chaotic.
> 
> In traditional contracting you know about most jobs weeks or months in advance of starting them and you have an organized schedule to follow that orchestrates the order of the work and keeps the project flowing.
> 
> In P&P it is about as close to complete chaos as you can get and still have a plan. Almost every decision is reactionary because you have little or no time to plan.
> 
> How would your jobs run if every day you showed up at the office and had to check your emails and fax machine to see what you and your crew was going to be doing that day and for the next few days?
> 
> At most you usually only get a few days to plan and proceed with a project.
> 
> P&P operates on a seven day schedule and there is no overtime, ever. Period. Charge overtime if you want, you just won't get the work.


yes.....we know all this. Tell us something we DON'T.


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## Guest

Actually, tell us the reason that YOU would continue working in this environment. That's what we DON'T understand.


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## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> Actually, tell us the reason that YOU would continue working in this environment. That's what we DON'T understand.


Here's what I don't understand... Are P&P pepes considered contractors...? :blink:... I thought this was Contractor Talk...


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## Gypsos

Kent Whitten said:


> Actually, tell us the reason that YOU would continue working in this environment. That's what we DON'T understand.


Actually I enjoy it. I started by accident when the idiots I worked for ran their company into the ground and I found myself out of work with no prospects. My kids were hungry, my house payment was late and someone offered me work. 

I have found a niche in the market area I cover and I make it a point to do it better than everyone else in this area. I get all the work I want, my kids are no longer hungry and my house payment is current. 

On the rare occasion I do lose on a job I am out less than $100. Not the thousands I lost because "You cannot afford to hire an attorney to sue us so we do not have to pay you."

Yeah, I will take this industry over the cesspit that the construction industry has become.


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## Gypsos

Tech Dawg said:


> Here's what I don't understand... Are P&P pepes considered contractors...? :blink:... I thought this was Contractor Talk...


The answer is yes. See below for clarification. Googles definition. 

con·trac·tor/ˈkänˌtraktər/ Noun: A person or company that undertakes a contract to provide materials or labor to perform a service or do a job. Synonyms: entrepreneur


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## Guest

Terrific! Glad you're happy with your industry. I love what I do, I'm like a pig in ****.


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## JenkinsHB

I also love what I do, I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I have a passion for the P&P industry. A few of us have it figured out.


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## Guest

Cool


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## SwiftRes

One issue is that you only hear the negative things that people need help with, that's why they are posting their questions on the forum. No one is going to come on here and say "I just made a ton of money yesterday in P&P" as there is no need for them to post that. 

The people making the money in this industry are place like "Good Choice Preservation". They are charging $60+ for an initial lawn cut and finding subs to do them for $14. They are making $46 per lawn cut and NOT LEAVING THEIR OFFICE. That is good money. IMHO people don't like to talk about the jobs that pay well due to the competitive nature of this industry. It depends on your location, but locally there aren't a significant number on contractors doing this so if another local company finds out who pays well, they may lose work.

I have completed 21 lawns for P&P in the last week, four less than $100 and the rest minimum $100, even after discount, 75% of these were average city lots. That's good money.


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## SwiftRes

This is the misconception that you guys have. You read the posts about the guys complaining about $14 re-cuts, have any of you actually taken the time to stop insulting others and read the HUD matrix, which is typically what the guys at the top are given, or do you accept the posts in this forum as gospel?

And as you asked, I will answer, "There is no way your feeble minds will grasp the complicated thing called P&P" by reading this forum.



TNTSERVICES said:


> Glad to see that you guys still need us to spread wisdom. Any time we can help, let us know.
> 
> I am still trying to unravel the mystery of P&P. Apparently you can only understand if you do re-cuts for $14.
> 
> But here's what I know. You sign up with companies who send you work like lawn maintenance, board up, winterizing, and the like. They require you to jump through a million hoops for little pay, you then go on the internet and whine about the whole process and that it's not fair. Fill in the blanks or just say that there is no way for our feeble minds to grasp the complicated thing called P&P.
> 
> BTW: last time I looked this is the land of opportunity. The first step of getting out of the hole is to stop digging!


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> One issue is that you only hear the negative things that people need help with, that's why they are posting their questions on the forum. No one is going to come on here and say "I just made a ton of money yesterday in P&P" as there is no need for them to post that.


Every trade has negatives. We all have ranted on CT. However, why is it that P&P only discusses price and complains about their industry in one way or another?

Why not post about the nice $ you made, or the cool job that you just completed? Why not go ahead and post about the great companies to work for?


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## Guest

TNTSERVICES said:


> Every trade has negatives. We all have ranted on CT. However, why is it that P&P only discusses price and complains about their industry in one way or another?
> 
> Why not post about the nice $ you made, or the cool job that you just completed? Why not go ahead and post about the great companies to work for?


Does the P&P have a picture post section?


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> This is the misconception that you guys have. You read the posts about the guys complaining about $14 re-cuts, have any of you actually taken the time to stop insulting others and read the HUD matrix, which is typically what the guys at the top are given, or do you accept the posts in this forum as gospel?
> 
> And as you asked, I will answer, "There is no way your feeble minds will grasp the complicated thing called P&P" by reading this forum.


You statement didn't make sense. You never revealed the misconception.

Also, who have I insulted? How did I insult? Was it my asking questions? You guys are too sensitive.


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## SwiftRes

Pure and simple, competition. When you in your other trades are dealing with thousands of homeowners as potential customers, that's just fine to do. When there are a handful of potential customers that are worthwhile to work with, who would share?

Also, as far as only discussing price, you are usually reading posts from people new to the field that are trying to understand the industry. Unfortunately we aren't dealing with homeowners that you can sit in front of, give a presentation about your great company and why you should justify your price. We are dealing with a customer that can pay $X for a job as long as you can get it done within X days. If you can do that, you will get another job. 

And others do post about "cool jobs", but maybe in a different way than you're used to. Our "cool jobs" are jobs with 300 CYD of debris, or some sort of wild damage to a property.





TNTSERVICES said:


> Every trade has negatives. We all have ranted on CT. However, why is it that P&P only discusses price and complains about their industry in one way or another?
> 
> Why not post about the nice $ you made, or the cool job that you just completed? Why not go ahead and post about the great companies to work for?


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## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> This is the misconception that you guys have. You read the posts about the guys complaining about $14 re-cuts, have any of you actually taken the time to stop insulting others and read the HUD matrix, which is typically what the guys at the top are given, or do you accept the posts in this forum as gospel?
> 
> And as you asked, I will answer, "There is no way your feeble minds will grasp the complicated thing called P&P" by reading this forum.


I don't see any insulting. But I also don't see any explanations. We are all still patiently awaiting the answer to "you guys just don't understand"

I am challenging you right now, explain one thing that we do not understand. Because I have yet to see it. Tell everyone what it is that we are so ignorant of, tell us how we don't see what you see. Is this not what we are here for? 

Explain.....educate....

or do you really have ANYTHING at all to share that has ANY semblance of wisdom into the really mind boggling state of property preservation. I mean, I am so stupid I cannot grasp business 101 topics.

So please...floor is yours....tell us everything we do not comprehend


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## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> I don't see any insulting. But I also don't see any explanations. We are all still patiently awaiting the answer to "you guys just don't understand"
> 
> I am challenging you right now, explain one thing that we do not understand. Because I have yet to see it. Tell everyone what it is that we are so ignorant of, tell us how we don't see what you see. Is this not what we are here for?
> 
> Explain.....educate....
> 
> or do you really have ANYTHING at all to share that has ANY semblance of wisdom into the really mind boggling state of property preservation. I mean, I am so stupid I cannot grasp business 101 topics.
> 
> So please...floor is yours....tell us everything we do not comprehend


I'll be back... (Microwaving some popcorn) :laughing:


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> Pure and simple, competition. When you in your other trades are dealing with thousands of homeowners as potential customers, that's just fine to do. When there are a handful of potential customers that are worthwhile to work with, who would share?
> 
> Also, as far as only discussing price, you are usually reading posts from people new to the field that are trying to understand the industry. Unfortunately we aren't dealing with homeowners that you can sit in front of, give a presentation about your great company and why you should justify your price. We are dealing with a customer that can pay $X for a job as long as you can get it done within X days. If you can do that, you will get another job.
> 
> And others do post about "cool jobs", but maybe in a different way than you're used to. Our "cool jobs" are jobs with 300 CYD of debris, or some sort of wild damage to a property.


As any of the Mods will tell you, I am on here pretty much everyday for several hours a day. I see a lot of the posts and very few (maybe 2%) are positive in the P&P section.

My competition isn't homeowners, but the other 200+ contractors in a 30 mile radius offering the same services. It too is about price and completion dates. I can spend hours putting a proposal together just to have some guy sneak in under my bid and steal the job knowing that he will have a ton of "change orders" to get to the real price of the job.

And I think that you have hit the nail on the head. The problem is you think that you have it so bad and we have it so good. That we know no heart ache or headache in our fields. You think that we just can't understand a pretty simple industry. Don't get all crazy, I didn't say that I could or would do it, but it's not rocket science, it's as I have said before, it's a lot of hoops for little money and several contractors chomping at the bit to get it.


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## SwiftRes

Kent, the fact that you as a moderator are hijacking this thread for this purpose is insulting on it's own. As a moderator, these are the things that you are supposed to be preventing.


Simply put, you do not understand how people can be profitable in this business. Nor can you understand it by sitting on a thread such as this one and use it as evidence that this is the pay that people in the entire industry are getting. How do I "explain" how we make money in this industry? I'd say that the simplest way is to go into it knowing that you are not going to be profitable on every job, but look at it on a weekly/monthly basis. This is one thing that is quite a bit different than other industries. 



Kent Whitten said:


> I don't see any insulting. But I also don't see any explanations. We are all still patiently awaiting the answer to "you guys just don't understand"
> 
> I am challenging you right now, explain one thing that we do not understand. Because I have yet to see it. Tell everyone what it is that we are so ignorant of, tell us how we don't see what you see. Is this not what we are here for?
> 
> Explain.....educate....
> 
> or do you really have ANYTHING at all to share that has ANY semblance of wisdom into the really mind boggling state of property preservation. I mean, I am so stupid I cannot grasp business 101 topics.
> 
> So please...floor is yours....tell us everything we do not comprehend


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## SwiftRes

Who said that we envy you? I do NOT envy having to deal with a homeowner nitpicking every little item, or hovering over me while I am doing my job. That is part of the reason I love this industry is that you do not have that happening.

I do not think I have it bad at all, I think I do quite well. The fact that you say "lots of hoops for little money" makes it very clear that you do NOT understand the industry. 

I'd say that spending hours on a proposal for each job is a lot more hoops than we go through.



TNTSERVICES said:


> As any of the Mods will tell you, I am on here pretty much everyday for several hours a day. I see a lot of the posts and very few (maybe 2%) are positive in the P&P section.
> 
> My competition isn't homeowners, but the other 200+ contractors in a 30 mile radius offering the same services. It too is about price and completion dates. I can spend hours putting a proposal together just to have some guy sneak in under my bid and steal the job knowing that he will have a ton of "change orders" to get to the real price of the job.
> 
> And I think that you have hit the nail on the head. The problem is you think that you have it so bad and we have it so good. That we know no heart ache or headache in our fields. You think that we just can't understand a pretty simple industry. Don't get all crazy, I didn't say that I could or would do it, but it's not rocket science, it's as I have said before, it's a lot of hoops for little money and several contractors chomping at the bit to get it.


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> Kent, the fact that you as a moderator are hijacking this thread for this purpose is insulting on it's own. As a moderator, these are the things that you are supposed to be preventing.


We just had one guy complain that the mods were not into threads and keeping the conversation going. Now Swift wants you to shut it up! :laughing:

Again, I ask how he or me for that matter insult anyone?

It is you guys that keep insulting our intelligence by telling us we can't understand unless we go and start a P&P business. That's just silly.


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## JenkinsHB

I think it boils down to good customer service. 

The frustation that most contractors encounter is the CONSTANT changing of requires. Literally, its daily. 

Every morning I sit down with my crews and the conversation goes like this ... Client A now needs interior rebid photos on grass cuts of FHA properties, Client B now needs photos of the wint zip ties on all sales cleans, Client C now requires 3 during shots of lawn mowing, Client D now requires us to show a dirty water bucket after sales cleans ... and the next day it changes.

I'm not complaining, it just takes a good office staff to stay on top of things. Have you ever played a game you don't know the rules to?


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## SwiftRes

TNTSERVICES said:


> We just had one guy complain that the mods were not into threads and keeping the conversation going. Now Swift wants you to shut it up! :laughing:.


I apparently missed that.




TNTSERVICES said:


> Again, I ask how he or me for that matter insult anyone?
> 
> It is you guys that keep insulting our intelligence by telling us we can't understand unless we go and start a P&P business. That's just silly


We can agree to disagree. You can tell me that you know how our business works, "lots of hoops for little money" without having a clue what kind of money we are talking.


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## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> I don't see any insulting. But I also don't see any explanations. We are all still patiently awaiting the answer to "you guys just don't understand"
> 
> I am challenging you right now, explain one thing that we do not understand. Because I have yet to see it. Tell everyone what it is that we are so ignorant of, tell us how we don't see what you see. Is this not what we are here for?
> 
> Explain.....educate....
> 
> or do you really have ANYTHING at all to share that has ANY semblance of wisdom into the really mind boggling state of property preservation. I mean, I am so stupid I cannot grasp business 101 topics.
> 
> So please...floor is yours....tell us everything we do not comprehend


Why is there so much sarcasm? Kent, its 10:30 at night you go to bed with a job planned for the morning. You figure nice easy day maybe 10hrs. When you wake up in the morning you have ten jobs that all have to be done today. Don't worry if you don't do them they WILL charge you what another company charged to do the work. That's part of this business of working for nationals. Has this ever happened to any of you that doesn't work in PP? I don't think so. There is money to be made and ways around this crap,but I ain't sayin chit. Id rather listen to others complain than spill all the beans. And for everyone that's not in this business, signup with some nationals and give it a shot,do a few jobs then come back and give us your input. This business like ALL others is not for everyone,but it seems to draw in more inexperienced folks than most other contractor type work. And Techdawg the pros in this business are just that pros. I feel a little Rodney on this "can't we all just get along"


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> Who said that we envy you? I do NOT envy having to deal with a homeowner nitpicking every little item, or hovering over me while I am doing my job. That is part of the reason I love this industry is that you do not have that happening.
> 
> I don't deal with nitpicking homeowners. Maybe a few here and there, but for the most part, they are pretty reasonable.
> 
> I do not think I have it bad at all, I think I do quite well. The fact that you say "lots of hoops for little money" makes it very clear that you do NOT understand the industry.
> 
> I'd say that spending hours on a proposal for each job is a lot more hoops than we go through.


But I charge for quotes. I give FREE estimates, but charge for detailed quotes and design. Okay, so here is the challenge. Your fellow P&P contractor told me that it's a lot of hoops (pics, paper work, deadlines, short notice, not knowing what you are going to do the next day or so), and you are telling me that is not how it is? YOu guys need to get your lines straight. Which is it?


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## Guest

Sorry everyone, Swift is right, it was way off topic, but I want to air this out once and for all.


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## Guest

At least now I know where to find cheap subs.


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## SwiftRes

Lets call them different hoops than most are used to. Your hoops are dealing with competing contractors on the job you are bidding, homeowners hovering over you, homeowners calling you back for little things, homeowners potentially not paying, making sure you don't get a little dirt on their nice floor, etc.

Our hoops are pictures, paperwork, deadlines and short notice. Once you get into a "groove" with a company, it's generally not too bad. This is my personal experience, others may be different. One thing I have going for me is that I am very computer saavy. If one were not, that would be unfortunately a barrier/time sink in this industry.



TNTSERVICES said:


> But I charge for quotes. I give FREE estimates, but charge for detailed quotes and design. Okay, so here is the challenge. Your fellow P&P contractor told me that it's a lot of hoops (pics, paper work, deadlines, short notice, not knowing what you are going to do the next day or so), and you are telling me that is not how it is? YOu guys need to get your lines straight. Which is it?


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## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> Kent, the fact that you as a moderator are hijacking this thread for this purpose is insulting on it's own. As a moderator, these are the things that you are supposed to be preventing.


You're right, it was getting out of hand. 

But just because I'm a moderator doesn't mean I can't express my opinion.

And threads get off topic all the time, so deal with it.



SwiftRes said:


> Simply put, you do not understand how people can be profitable in this business.


See....I have the biggest issue with the condescending attitude that you give. Seriously, again, explain it like I'm a 3 year old because that is exactly what you think the rest here are.

Again, business 101. If you can't make the money you need to make in order to survive, there is only one option. 

How many times are you going to pound your thumb with a hammer before you get your thumb out of the way?


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## TNTSERVICES

mbobbish734 said:


> Why is there so much sarcasm? Kent, its 10:30 at night you go to bed with a job planned for the morning. You figure nice easy day maybe 10hrs. When you wake up in the morning you have ten jobs that all have to be done today. Don't worry if you don't do them they WILL charge you what another company charged to do the work. That's part of this business of working for nationals. Has this ever happened to any of you that doesn't work in PP? I don't think so. There is money to be made and ways around this crap,but I ain't sayin chit. Id rather listen to others complain than spill all the beans. And for everyone that's not in this business, signup with some nationals and give it a shot,do a few jobs then come back and give us your input. This business like ALL others is not for everyone,but it seems to draw in more inexperienced folks than most other contractor type work. And Techdawg the pros in this business are just that pros. I feel a little Rodney on this "can't we all just get along"


So you apparently don't understand what we do. If you think that any day that I plan works the way I thought you are kidding. Where you may lose $100, I can lose $10000.

I think it's funny that the P&P guys can know our business, yet we can't possibly know there's. 

Guys we get it. There are a lot of hoops to jump through (Swift see Jenkins post), the money is not a given (Swift see the above post from MBOB) and the rules are always changing. All that I am asking is why do it if it's so bad.


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> Lets call them different hoops than most are used to. Your hoops are dealing with competing contractors on the job you are bidding, homeowners hovering over you, homeowners calling you back for little things, homeowners potentially not paying, making sure you don't get a little dirt on their nice floor, etc.
> 
> Our hoops are pictures, paperwork, deadlines and short notice. Once you get into a "groove" with a company, it's generally not too bad. This is my personal experience, others may be different. One thing I have going for me is that I am very computer saavy. If one were not, that would be unfortunately a barrier/time sink in this industry.


Thank you! Finally a concise answer that wasn't insulting and didn't constitute bitching. Now we are finding common ground and communicating!


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## SwiftRes

I'm not entirely sure what you guys want to know. 

Bottom line in this industry is:
- You need to work with the top tier companies, not the ones that pay $14 for recuts, if any of you have not read the HUD pricing guidelines, read them.
- Accept the fact you are going to have to take a terribly paying job here and there that you may lose on, for the jobs that you will make great money on. You may have to go do a winterization only on a property, and you will make **** on that job, but the next one you will do great on.
- Capital is crucial as it is with any small business, contractor or not. Pay can take 30-90 days. 30-90 days worth of jobs can be a LOT of $ you have to bankroll. This is a HUGE barrier for most to grow.


----------



## JenkinsHB

It's not that bad. I think half of the things said on this forum are just to keep other contractors from getting into the arena. Nobody wants to encourage their competition.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you guys want to know.
> 
> Bottom line in this industry is:
> - You need to work with the top tier companies, not the ones that pay $14 for recuts, if any of you have not read the HUD pricing guidelines, read them.
> - Accept the fact you are going to have to take a terribly paying job here and there that you may lose on, for the jobs that you will make great money on. You may have to go do a winterization only on a property, and you will make **** on that job, but the next one you will do great on.
> - Capital is crucial as it is with any small business, contractor or not. Pay can take 30-90 days. 30-90 days worth of jobs can be a LOT of $ you have to bankroll. This is a HUGE barrier for most to grow.



So really your industry is no different than mine. It just breeds more bitching! :laughing:


----------



## TNTSERVICES

JenkinsHB said:


> It's not that bad. I think half of the things said on this forum are just to keep other contractors from getting into the arena. Nobody wants to encourage their competition.


Now that's the best explanation I have heard yet! Thanks for the honest opinion!


----------



## SwiftRes

Kent Whitten said:


> See....I have the biggest issue with the condescending attitude that you give. Seriously, again, explain it like I'm a 3 year old because that is exactly what you think the rest here are.
> 
> Again, business 101. If you can't make the money you need to make in order to survive, there is only one option.
> 
> How many times are you going to pound your thumb with a hammer before you get your thumb out of the way?


First off, I am on the defensive here from others coming into these discussions with their condescending attitudes about the P&P industry. Apologize if I come off frustrated.

Secondly, who said anything about not making the money I need to survive? If people were not profitable, there would not be regulars on this forum and people with years in the industry.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> First off, I am on the defensive here from others coming into these discussions with their condescending attitudes about the P&P industry. Apologize if I come off frustrated.
> 
> Secondly, who said anything about not making the money I need to survive? If people were not profitable, there would not be regulars on this forum and people with years in the industry.


For the last time, please point out the condescending or insulting posts or comments.


----------



## Guest

Gypsos said:


> You do not have a clue.





SwiftRes said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you guys want to know.



This.....this is what I want to know. What specifically is it that I do not have a clue?


----------



## BPWY

Kent Whitten said:


> Actually, tell us the reason that YOU would continue working in this environment. That's what we DON'T understand.







In some parts of the country there is little other work available.


----------



## SwiftRes

TNTSERVICES said:


> For the last time, please point out the condescending or insulting posts or comments.


Pretty simple:
http://www.contractortalk.com/f118/please-read-before-posting-pp-section-114652/


----------



## SwiftRes

How am I supposed to tell you the answer to someone elses riddle? I am not sure what he was referring to.



Kent Whitten said:


> This.....this is what I want to know. What specifically is it that I do not have a clue?


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> In some parts of the country there is little other work available.


1990 it was so bad where I lived, I had no other choice but to move. 

You always have options.....ALWAYS.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> Pretty simple:
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f118/please-read-before-posting-pp-section-114652/


The context was this thread, not anything else. If you don't like the rules of then find another place to post. If you don't like other contractors chiming in, then find another place. It's as simple as that.


----------



## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> How am I supposed to tell you the answer to someone elses riddle? I am not sure what he was referring to.


There's a helluva lot of you guys with the same riddle


----------



## Guest

TNTSERVICES said:


> So you apparently don't understand what we do. If you think that any day that I plan works the way I thought you are kidding. Where you may lose $100, I can lose $10000.
> 
> I think it's funny that the P&P guys can know our business, yet we can't possibly know there's.
> 
> Guys we get it. There are a lot of hoops to jump through (Swift see Jenkins post), the money is not a given (Swift see the above post from MBOB) and the rules are always changing. All that I am asking is why do it if it's so bad.


Rob I'm a licensed builder in the great state of Michigan specializing in interior remodeling,and preservation. I know both sides to the story working for homeowners and banks. I prefer homeowners but do what I have to to make a living. I'll take a straight remodel of anything over dealing with PP. The pic requirement is the biggest PITA as it usually adds atleast 30% more time than with out. But yeah I'm making money.


----------



## BPWY

TNTSERVICES said:


> You guys are too sensitive.






:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

That is a gut buster like haven't had in about 10 years.


The P&P section was one big happy family up until a few weeks ago.
Outside forces came in and today its far from a "happy" posting atmosphere.


----------



## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> Pretty simple:
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f118/please-read-before-posting-pp-section-114652/


:laughing: man you guys are priceless


----------



## TNTSERVICES

mbobbish734 said:


> Rob I'm a licensed builder in the great state of Michigan specializing in interior remodeling,and preservation. I know both sides to the story working for homeowners and banks. I prefer homeowners but do what I have to to make a living. I'll take a straight remodel of anything over dealing with PP. The pic requirement is the biggest PITA as it usually adds atleast 30% more time than with out. But yeah I'm making money.


So then why give a lame example implying that we wake up and all our plans go smooth and that we don't have any worries about changed plans? It's only Tuesday and my plans have changed a dozen times. Chit happens.


----------



## BPWY

TNTSERVICES said:


> or the cool job that you just completed? Why not go ahead and post about the great companies to work for?






1 there are few jobs that could called "cool" in P&P

2 there are very few companies that could be called "good" to work for
None that I've worked for that I would rate as "GREAT".


I don't understand......... if the P&P section bothers you sooooooooo much, why not just stay out? Seems pretty simple to my thought processes.

I'm not in the other sections of CT telling you guys that you are clueless. It would be stupid for me to do that because I'm not experienced in the line of work you do.


----------



## SwiftRes

I am still unsure what your guys beef is about property preservation. Over the last month or so we have been on the defensive on our industry. What gives??


----------



## TNTSERVICES

BPWY said:


> :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> That is a gut buster like haven't had in about 10 years.
> 
> 
> The P&P section was one big happy family up until a few weeks ago.
> Outside forces came in and today its far from a "happy" posting atmosphere.


Anytime I have posted in the P&P section I was not received as a happy member of the family. Anytime anyone other than a P&P contractor posts on a P&P thread they are not welcomed with open arms.

I guess the boys in the Lord of the Flies were pretty upset when the fun ended for them.

And by outside forces you are referring to the MODS appointed by the OWNER of the very Forum you enjoy for FREE? That was a gut buster and no shock that a P&P guy thinks he owns the place.


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> That is a gut buster like haven't had in about 10 years.
> 
> 
> The P&P section was one big happy family up until a few weeks ago.
> Outside forces came in and today its far from a "happy" posting atmosphere.


I'm sure you'll live


----------



## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> I am still unsure what your guys beef is about property preservation. Over the last month or so we have been on the defensive on our industry. What gives??


Swift, any time we comment or question you guys blow up. You get sensitive and push back when there is no need. It's insulting to tell very educated and well informed men, not that they don't understand, but can't understand a relatively simple industry.


----------



## SwiftRes

TNTSERVICES said:


> Anytime I have posted in the P&P section I was not received as happy. Anytime anyone other than a P&P contractor posts on a P&P thread they are not welcomed with open arms.


It's because generally the attitude by others when they post in this forum is along the lines of "Why the heck are you guys doing this?". That's not usually a positive contribution to the thread.


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> I don't understand......... if the P&P section bothers you sooooooooo much, why not just stay out? Seems pretty simple to my thought processes.



I've been waiting for that response. 

Is the reason we are all here is to educate each other? How is the PP section any different? It fascinates the hell out of me, I want to learn all I can. Are you going to rob me of the pleasure of learning?


----------



## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> It's because generally the attitude by others when they post in this forum is along the lines of "Why the heck are you guys doing this?". That's not usually a positive contribution to the thread.


And company bashing is?


----------



## Guest

TNTSERVICES said:


> So then why give a lame example implying that we wake up and all our plans go smooth and that we don't have any worries about changed plans? It's only Tuesday and my plans have changed a dozen times. Chit happens.


Lame huh. In my example you went from a days work to being charged for not doing something that there was no way on earth you could of done in the time alotted. Plans change all the time as a contractor,but you almost never have to pay for something you did not see or touch or work on.


----------



## Guest

This is THE problem with the PP section is that the MAJORITY of posts is negative


----------



## TNTSERVICES

BPWY said:


> 1 there are few jobs that could called "cool" in P&P
> 
> 2 there are very few companies that could be called "good" to work for
> None that I've worked for that I would rate as "GREAT".
> 
> So start a thread and make a list of the good ones. Update it when things change.
> 
> 
> I don't understand......... if the P&P section bothers you sooooooooo much, why not just stay out? Seems pretty simple to my thought processes.
> 
> When did I say it bothered me? What bothers me is telling me I can't understand. Why not stay out? Why not answer a simple question?
> 
> I'm not in the other sections of CT telling you guys that you are clueless. It would be stupid for me to do that because I'm not experienced in the line of work you do.


Where did I tell anyone they were clueless? It's acutally the opposite. You guys are fond of telling us we are clueless.


----------



## SwiftRes

How is there no need to push back? I have people telling me I'm crazy for doing this industry because I do a lot of work for little pay. I tell them I am making money, then I am asked how to explain I'm making money. I am on a long-term basis able to charge more than my costs are, I'm not really sure what else to explain!!



TNTSERVICES said:


> Swift, any time we comment or question you guys blow up. You get sensitive and push back when there is no need. It's insulting to tell very educated and well informed men, not that they don't understand, but can't understand a relatively simple industry.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

mbobbish734 said:


> Lame huh. In my example you went from a days work to being charged for not doing something that there was no way on earth you could of done in the time alotted. Plans change all the time as a contractor,but you almost never have to pay for something you did not see or touch or work on.


? You pay for work that you don't see or touch or work on? I am confused.


----------



## Guest

mbobbish734 said:


> Lame huh. In my example you went from a days work to being charged for not doing something that there was no way on earth you could of done in the time alotted. Plans change all the time as a contractor,but you almost never have to pay for something you did not see or touch or work on.


So you're saying that they take money from you?


----------



## SwiftRes

Kent Whitten said:


> And company bashing is?


Company bashing gives it a negative connotation, but discussing the somewhat shady business practices of certain companies helps to make the industry more transparent and save potential new P&P guys from making mistakes that could lose them $$.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> How is there no need to push back? I have people telling me I'm crazy for doing this industry because I do a lot of work for little pay. I tell them I am making money, then I am asked how to explain I'm making money. I am on a long-term basis able to charge more than my costs are, I'm not really sure what else to explain!!


You don't have to be so damned sensitive. When someone asks a question like, "If you aren't getting paid enough why not do something else?" just answer it and don't say there is no way we could understand.

You know explain it and say it's simple. So I do I understand or not?:whistling


----------



## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> So you're saying that they take money from you?


YES . if company abc owes you $$$$ and they subtract $$$ from what they owe then you get $$ instead of $$$$ from my example.


----------



## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> Company bashing gives it a negative connotation, but discussing the somewhat shady business practices of certain companies helps to make the industry more transparent and save potential new P&P guys from making mistakes that could lose them $$.


I understand shady business practices, but unless you have absolute, definitive proof, like a legal judgment posting that said company is fraudulent, then we are speculating or going off our own personal opinions, are we not?

What would you think if one of the nationals came here and said "oh, be very careful with this swift preservation guy, he only brings illegals and plays loud music, The cops had to show up last time and they were unbelievable!"


----------



## JenkinsHB

Kent Whitten said:


> So you're saying that they take money from you?


Yes. The bad clients do this. They are contractor mills ... constant turnover.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

mbobbish734 said:


> YES . if company abc owes you $$$$ and they subtract $$$ from what they owe then you get $$ instead of $$$$ from my example.


Why would they subtract $$$ from what they owe you? That was the implied question.


----------



## BPWY

TNTSERVICES said:


> Anytime I have posted in the P&P section I was not received as a happy member of the family. Anytime anyone other than a P&P contractor posts on a P&P thread they are not welcomed with open arms.
> 
> 
> 
> That was a gut buster and no shock that a P&P guy thinks he owns the place.







1. We've covered this, P&P contractors aren't going around the other parts of the forum telling you guys how to run your biz when its not an area we are not experienced in.

2. Are you kidding me?????????
No body thinks they own the forum.

You should stop why you are ahead. :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## Guest

mbobbish734 said:


> YES . if company abc owes you $$$$ and they subtract $$$ from what they owe then you get $$ instead of $$$$ from my example.


Alright, two questions. 

Have you signed an agreement that says they can do this? 

Do you keep working for this company even though they took money from you?

If you answered yes to either of those, then I hate to break the bad news to you.


----------



## BPWY

Kent Whitten said:


> I'm sure you'll live




I'm not about to act like a little kid and give you the satisfaction of banning me. :laughing: :laughing:








Kent Whitten said:


> Are you going to rob me of the pleasure of learning?




How did that go???

Oh yeah..........


Kent Whitten said:


> I'm sure you'll live


:laughing: :laughing:


----------



## SwiftRes

Kent Whitten said:


> So you're saying that they take money from you?


One of the "shady business practices" that I was referring to is called a chargeback. I hate to say it, but I'm sure there are instances where chargebacks are well deserved, but there are also instances in which they are not. 

A chargeback goes like this:
- On my first visit to a property I am supposed to report all damages to homes, roof leaks, peeling paint, missing electrical plumbing, etc, etc
- Lets say I miss a leaking roof
- Leaking roof over the next 3 months causes damage to property
- I could be liable for a chargeback of the cost to remediate this damage.
- WHERE THIS CAN GET SHADY: They may try and charge me back for more than the damage actually cost to fix. How am I to know what they actually paid?

Another example of a chargeback:
- I agree to cover an entire territory
- I get 40 initial lawn cuts in this territory
- I don't have the discussions with company to let them know I can't handle all 40
- 5 days after due date, the 10 outstanding lawns I haven't done yet are reassigned to another company and they are given additional compensation to get them done fast
- I may be liable for the additional compensation, and if they think I am, they take it out of my next check
- WHERE THIS CAN GET SHADY: They may try and charge me back for the entire lawn cut price, therefore making their cost FREE. 

Another example of $$ issue:
- Property has a $350 allowable to replace a sump pump, which means I can charge up to that amount without prior approval if the job i do justifies the price I charge
- I replace sump pump, bill $350
- They come back and say no, due to size of sump pump and work you did, our "bid estimator" says the job should pay $250

It's a bit like these larger companies can be their own judge and give their own verdict in a small claims case. 

Your guys thoughts now are the same, "Why the heck would you be in this industry?". The answer is that the other 90% of my work orders go smooth as can be and pay me well. But why talk about those? I want to get tips from others in the industry on how to help avoid or combat the above issues.


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> 1. We've covered this, P&P contractors aren't going around the other parts of the forum telling you guys how to run your biz when its not an area we are not experienced in.
> 
> 2. Are you kidding me?????????
> No body thinks they own the forum.
> 
> You should stop why you are ahead. :laughing: :laughing:


You haven't responded to my statements. Is this not why we are all here? To learn? Can I not be here to try to educate myself? Isn't this what you guys seem to preach, that we don't understand?


----------



## Guest

It's really pretty simple. The reason asset management companies are PITA's and don't pay a lot is because they can. There's a zillion guys ready in the wings to pounce on any opportunity to steal your business and these guys know it. You guys would need to organize to change things, and that's never going to happen.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

BPWY said:


> 1. We've covered this, P&P contractors aren't going around the other parts of the forum telling you guys how to run your biz when its not an area we are not experienced in.
> 
> How did I tell you how to run your business? I keep asking for specifics and you give none. Maybe you should just stop... :laughing:
> 
> 2. Are you kidding me?????????
> No body thinks they own the forum.
> 
> You guys seem to think so. "We were a happy family until outside influences came in"...outside influences were appointed by the owner of the site. You guys keep telling us non P&P contractors to leave this section. It's an open forum. If you guys don't like other contractors poking their head in and asking questions or calling BS every now and again, my suggestion is grow a set and take it like a man or find another scratching post.
> 
> You should stop why you are ahead. :laughing: :laughing:


I am still trying to get you to answer my questions.
_
I don't understand......... if the P&P section bothers you sooooooooo much, why not just stay out? Seems pretty simple to my thought processes.

*When did I say it bothered me?*


I'm not in the other sections of CT telling you guys that you are clueless. It would be stupid for me to do that because I'm not experienced in the line of work you do.
*
Where did I tell anyone they were clueless?*
_


----------



## BPWY

TNTSERVICES said:


> Why would they subtract $$$ from what they owe you? That was the implied question.









The why is one of the mysteries of the P&P biz.


We all have ideas on why, even heard some 2nd or 3rd hand rumors of why.


It goes like this. They send TNT a work order to go trash out 100 yrds of debris. TNT says hey...... my truck got wrecked I need a couple days to get it replaced but we'll still get it done.
They say.... screw you, we are going to have another contractor go in and do the job (Kent) and what ever he charges us for doing your job is what we are going to deduct from your pay.


Legal????? hardly

ethical????? absolutely not


You can use what ever example you want. The end result is the same.



Or how about you tell the national company that you believe there is 100 yrds of debris in this house/property and your bid is $50 per yard for a total of $5000 to trash it out. You send in the pics and they look at them and agree with you that there is 100 yrds.

You do the job, send in the pics and a couple weeks later they send you an email telling you that they only saw 30 yrds of debris so your invoice has been adjusted accordingly.
And there is NOTHING you can do about it. Their word is gospel.


Legal?????? not any where else in the contracting world


ethical????? absolutely not




the examples go on and on


----------



## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> Alright, two questions.
> 
> Have you signed an agreement that says they can do this?
> 
> Do you keep working for this company even though they took money from you?
> 
> If you answered yes to either of
> those, then I hate to break the bad news to you.


1. Yes but learned and found other clients that don't before I got screwed.

2. No see above.


----------



## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> One of the "shady business practices" that I was referring to is called a chargeback. I hate to say it, but I'm sure there are instances where chargebacks are well deserved, but there are also instances in which they are not.
> 
> A chargeback goes like this:
> - On my first visit to a property I am supposed to report all damages to homes, roof leaks, peeling paint, missing electrical plumbing, etc, etc
> - Lets say I miss a leaking roof
> - Leaking roof over the next 3 months causes damage to property
> - I could be liable for a chargeback of the cost to remediate this damage.
> 
> Of course you are. If you agreed to investigate the property and said it is all fine and dandy and this is what you service includes, of course you are liable. If this is what you agreed to with the company.
> 
> Another example of a chargeback:
> - I agree to cover an entire territory
> - I get 40 initial lawn cuts in this territory
> - I don't have the discussions with company to let them know I can't handle all 40
> - 5 days after due date, the 10 outstanding lawns I haven't done yet are reassigned to another company and they are given additional compensation to get them done fast
> - I may be liable for the additional compensation, and if they think I am, they take it out of my next check
> 
> I hate to tell you, but if you agreed to mow 40 lawns and "forget" to tell them that you can't handle 40 lawns....who's problem do you think it really is? Of course, if they try that here in Maine, they will get a rude awakening, since by law, the *cough* contractor/national MUST give notice to the person doing the work to complete it, otherwise, tough luck.
> 
> Another example of $$ issue:
> - Property has a $350 allowable to replace a sump pump, which means I can charge up to that amount without prior approval if the job i do justifies the price I charge
> - I replace sump pump, bill $350
> - They come back and say no, due to size of sump pump and work you did, our "bid estimator" says the job should pay $250
> 
> I don't let anyone tell me how much I have to charge. My "claims adjuster" would retort with "actually it was $450"
> 
> It's a bit like these larger companies can be their own judge and give their own verdict in a small claims case.
> 
> Your guys thoughts now are the same, "Why the heck would you be in this industry?". The answer is that the other 90% of my work orders go smooth as can be and pay me well. But why talk about those? I want to get tips from others in the industry on how to help avoid or combat the above issues.


...


----------



## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> One of the "shady business practices" that I was referring to is called a chargeback. I hate to say it, but I'm sure there are instances where chargebacks are well deserved, but there are also instances in which they are not.
> 
> A chargeback goes like this:
> - On my first visit to a property I am supposed to report all damages to homes, roof leaks, peeling paint, missing electrical plumbing, etc, etc
> - Lets say I miss a leaking roof
> - Leaking roof over the next 3 months causes damage to property
> - I could be liable for a chargeback of the cost to remediate this damage.
> - WHERE THIS CAN GET SHADY: They may try and charge me back for more than the damage actually cost to fix. How am I to know what they actually paid?
> 
> Another example of a chargeback:
> - I agree to cover an entire territory
> - I get 40 initial lawn cuts in this territory
> - I don't have the discussions with company to let them know I can't handle all 40
> - 5 days after due date, the 10 outstanding lawns I haven't done yet are reassigned to another company and they are given additional compensation to get them done fast
> - I may be liable for the additional compensation, and if they think I am, they take it out of my next check
> - WHERE THIS CAN GET SHADY: They may try and charge me back for the entire lawn cut price, therefore making their cost FREE.
> 
> Another example of $$ issue:
> - Property has a $350 allowable to replace a sump pump, which means I can charge up to that amount without prior approval if the job i do justifies the price I charge
> - I replace sump pump, bill $350
> - They come back and say no, due to size of sump pump and work you did, our "bid estimator" says the job should pay $250
> 
> It's a bit like these larger companies can be their own judge and give their own verdict in a small claims case.
> 
> Your guys thoughts now are the same, "Why the heck would you be in this industry?". The answer is that the other 90% of my work orders go smooth as can be and pay me well. But why talk about those? I want to get tips from others in the industry on how to help avoid or combat the above issues.


See this is what I have been asking for. An understanding of what you are talking about. That's all that I have asked for. Help me understand.

I guess when I have come on and asked why in the world would you take X amount for that work, I get asked to leave, and told that I would never understand. That's what gets me going.


----------



## BPWY

Kent Whitten said:


> You haven't responded to my statements. Is this not why we are all here? To learn? Can I not be here to try to educate myself? Isn't this what you guys seem to preach, that we don't understand?







Post 75. :thumbup:



And 80 I tried to answer a direct question.


----------



## Guest

mbobbish734 said:


> 1. Yes but learned and found other clients that don't before I got screwed.
> 
> 2. No see above.


Then we agree. We have learned. I'm going to bed now :laughing:


----------



## BPWY

TNTSERVICES said:


> *
> Where did I tell anyone they were clueless?*
> [/COLOR][/I]








Maybe it wasn't you, but another guy from a different trade did come in and post a lot of BS.
Some of his exact words were clueless and stupid.


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> Post 75. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> And 80 I tried to answer a direct question.


oh :laughing: hard to keep up tonight.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

BPWY said:


> The why is one of the mysteries of the P&P biz.
> 
> 
> We all have ideas on why, even heard some 2nd or 3rd hand rumors of why.
> 
> 
> It goes like this. They send TNT a work order to go trash out 100 yrds of debris. TNT says hey...... my truck got wrecked I need a couple days to get it replaced but we'll still get it done.
> They say.... screw you, we are going to have another contractor go in and do the job (Kent) and what ever he charges us for doing your job is what we are going to deduct from your pay.
> 
> 
> Legal????? hardly
> 
> ethical????? absolutely not
> 
> 
> You can use what ever example you want. The end result is the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Or how about you tell the national company that you believe there is 100 yrds of debris in this house/property and your bid is $50 per yard for a total of $5000 to trash it out. You send in the pics and they look at them and agree with you that there is 100 yrds.
> 
> You do the job, send in the pics and a couple weeks later they send you an email telling you that they only saw 30 yrds of debris so your invoice has been adjusted accordingly.
> And there is NOTHING you can do about it. Their word is gospel.
> 
> 
> Legal?????? not any where else in the contracting world
> 
> 
> ethical????? absolutely not
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the examples go on and on


I would assume that you argeed to their TOS? If so, then it is perfectly legal. It may not be ethical, but legal if agreed to by both parties.

And was that so hard? :thumbup:


----------



## SwiftRes

Kent Whitten said:


> ...


You can absolutely say you will charge $450, and get into that argument, and not get the other few thousand a week you normally get from that client. Or, you can accept it as a cost of doing business and learn in the future either how to #1 - Justify the job at $350 in future, or #2 - Live with that price in the future

As far as the leaking roof and lawn issues, I agree that in that case you should be liable. But lets say that a month after you were at the property, the roof begins leaking, and a month after that there is water dripping into a bedroom. Then they still want to come after you. Then it comes down to whether or not your photos are good enough to prove the leak wasn't there when you were.


----------



## BPWY

Kent said.....


> I hate to tell you, but if you agreed to mow 40 lawns and "forget" to tell them that you can't handle 40 lawns....who's problem do you think it really is? Of course, if they try that here in Maine, they will get a rude awakening, since by law, the *cough* contractor/national MUST give notice to the person doing the work to complete it, otherwise, tough luck.




Nearly all of these companies do their dead level best to skirt all state and federal laws they can get away with.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

BPWY said:


> Maybe it wasn't you, but another guy from a different trade did come in and post a lot of BS.
> Some of his exact words were clueless and stupid.


So don't take it out on the wrong guy. I am just hear asking questions. Hence the "sensitive" comment.


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> It goes like this. They send TNT a work order to go trash out 100 yrds of debris. TNT says hey...... my truck got wrecked I need a couple days to get it replaced but we'll still get it done.
> They say.... screw you, we are going to have another contractor go in and do the job (Kent) and what ever he charges us for doing your job is what we are going to deduct from your pay.


Hell....I'm just glad I'm not the one being screwed in this paragraph :laughing:


----------



## BPWY

Kent Whitten said:


> oh :laughing: hard to keep up tonight.



Lot of posts and pages being added tonight.




TNTSERVICES said:


> I would assume that you argeed to their TOS? If so, then it is perfectly legal. It may not be ethical, but legal if agreed to by both parties.
> 
> And was that so hard? :thumbup:







I'll have to look another night and see if I can find some of the 16 to 20 pages that most of their "contracts" are.
I don't believe their contracts spell out all the details on how they WILL screw the contractor over.
Thats the learning process as you progress in your courtship with them.


----------



## Guest

BPWY said:


> Kent said.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly all of these companies do their dead level best to skirt all state and federal laws they can get away with.


I agree.


----------



## BPWY

Kent Whitten said:


> Hell....I'm just glad I'm not the one being screwed in this paragraph :laughing:







Kent made a funny.





The P&P business is explained in this next sentence.


The entire industry boils down to this. 
One party is the "screwer" and one party is the "screwee".

Mutual enjoyment of the process IS NOT part of the equation!


----------



## SwiftRes

True here as it is everywhere. Those with the $$ have the control. That's why a forum where preservation guys can discuss the problems such as unwarranted chargebacks and pricing is important. I know from P&P forums I've learned how to better work with some of these companies to prevent issues from occuring, and getting the best price possible for my services.

BPWY's explaination on CYD reduction is true, and does happen, but in my personal experience, this only happens on a small fraction of jobs, but can be very frustrating when it does happen if you've spent 2 days on a property that you just now find out you either broke even or lost $$ on. Fight it and then look at your monthly P&L and see if it's still worthwhile to be in the industry. The million dollar question in these cases that I don't know the answer to, is whether or not these national companies are billing HUD for the 100 CYD or 30 CYD. If it's true that HUD will only pay the 30 CYD because that's all that's justifiable from photos, then I wouldn't have as big of an issue as if the companies charged HUD for 100 CYD and tried to stick it to the contractor. Unfortunately, this is very tough to know.

So has any of this been helpful in explaining the preservation industry?

Also I'm hitting the sack as well. We have 2 roofs to tarp, 3 homes to clean out, dehumidifier to install, 9 lawns to do yet this week, will be an early morning.


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> True here as it is everywhere. Those with the $$ have the control. That's why a forum where preservation guys can discuss the problems such as unwarranted chargebacks and pricing is important. I know from P&P forums I've learned how to better work with some of these companies to prevent issues from occuring, and getting the best price possible for my services.
> 
> BPWY's explaination on CYD reduction is true, and does happen, but in my personal experience, this only happens on a small fraction of jobs, but can be very frustrating when it does happen if you've spent 2 days on a property that you just now find out you either broke even or lost $$ on. Fight it and then look at your monthly P&L and see if it's still worthwhile to be in the industry. The million dollar question in these cases that I don't know the answer to, is whether or not these national companies are billing HUD for the 100 CYD or 30 CYD. If it's true that HUD will only pay the 30 CYD because that's all that's justifiable from photos, then I wouldn't have as big of an issue as if the companies charged HUD for 100 CYD and tried to stick it to the contractor. Unfortunately, this is very tough to know.
> 
> So has any of this been helpful in explaining the preservation industry?
> 
> Also I'm hitting the sack as well. We have 2 roofs to tarp, 3 homes to clean out, dehumidifier to install, 9 lawns to do yet this week, will be an early morning.


Sure, but why did I have to pull out my hair to get it?


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## SwiftRes

Everything I described about chargebacks, paying less than what I billed, etc. are things that have been discussed in this forum over and over again exhaustingly. That is the reason for Kent's crackdown. I know at least one of the most recent ones that discussed a chargeback from a company in depth, was deleted from the forums. These are now the things that we are not allowed to discuss any longer, as they either constitute badmouthing a company or pricing.

Short of saying that these "bad stories" are only a small fraction of my overall business, I didn't really explain much that wasn't already all over the forums with example after example. 




TNTSERVICES said:


> Sure, but why did I have to pull out my hair to get it?


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## BPWY

swiftres said:


> everything i described about chargebacks, paying less than what i billed, etc. Are things that have been discussed in this forum over and over again exhaustingly. That is the reason for kent's crackdown. I know at least one of the most recent ones that discussed a chargeback from a company in depth, was deleted from the forums. These are now the things that we are not allowed to discuss any longer, as they either constitute badmouthing a company or pricing.
> 
> Short of saying that these "bad stories" are only a small fraction of my overall business, i didn't really explain much that wasn't already all over the forums with example after example.






exactly...........


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## TNTSERVICES

SwiftRes said:


> Everything I described about chargebacks, paying less than what I billed, etc. are things that have been discussed in this forum over and over again exhaustingly.
> 
> Welcome to internet forums, where dead horses are beat all the time.
> 
> That is the reason for Kent's crackdown. I know at least one of the most recent ones that discussed a chargeback from a company in depth, was deleted from the forums. These are now the things that we are not allowed to discuss any longer, as they either constitute badmouthing a company or pricing.
> 
> I think that it was the constant "bashing" taking place. A discussion would be tolerated. Nothing keeps you guys from discussing pricing, that's what private messages are for
> 
> Short of saying that these "bad stories" are only a small fraction of my overall business, I didn't really explain much that wasn't already all over the forums with example after example.


so next time direct to those examples.


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## Guest

SwiftRes said:


> Everything I described about chargebacks, paying less than what I billed, etc. are things that have been discussed in this forum over and over again exhaustingly. That is the reason for Kent's crackdown. I know at least one of the most recent ones that discussed a chargeback from a company in depth, was deleted from the forums. These are now the things that we are not allowed to discuss any longer, as they either constitute badmouthing a company or pricing.


No, it's not the reason. This is what you guys don't get. 

The thread that was deleted was a first time poster, he came here solely to bad mouth a company. 

Or are you talking about the one where we were called racist by one of the long time pp members? Understand that the uncalled for behavior is coming from mostly 4 individuals from the pp section. And so far, I am sitting here listening to it all. 

I enforce the forum rules. If you do not have anything civil to post, I will remove it if I feel that it has crossed the line. That's rule one and I just didn't magically make it up. It's been there and everyone agreed to it when they signed up here. 

So when some disgruntled member decides that he is going to test the line again, he gets overwhelming rebuttal from every single member who responded and not one said that he agreed with what he said. And all he could muster up was that we were biased. 

I let it go, but the fantastic 4 just can't seem to grasp the concept of being civil.


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## Gypsos

SwiftRes said:


> I'd say that spending hours on a proposal for each job is a lot more hoops than we go through.


I so do not miss this part.


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## Guest

skcolo said:


> At least now I know where to find cheap subs.


Hey Duck, why do you allow posts like this?
What does this have to do with helping out in this property preservation forum?


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## Guest

PropPresPro said:


> Hey Duck, why do you allow posts like this?
> What does this have to do with helping out in this property preservation forum?


Who's duck?


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## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> Who's duck?


Exactly!


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## BPWY

I think he meant Duke.

Kent's name under his forum ID name.


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## BPWY

This one is for Kent and TNT.



Here is another fine example of what P&P guys deal with EVERY DAY.


On a recent debris removal I bid, I had to fight and fight and fight with them to allow
me to bid for 80 yards of debris. Finally they caved and agreed it was 80.
Today I get bid approval. They gave me the 80 yards but cut my rate per yard in half.
Without telling me, without asking me. Just did it. 
Was this in the contract?? Not that I know of. 

YOU guys asked how P&P is different than TRADITIONAL bidding and contracting. This is the sort of BS we deal with all the time. Every day. Arbitrary bid cutting, straight up pay denials etc. This would never fly in TRADITIONAL bidding and contracting that you guys are so hung up on. Its clear from the posts over and over asking what the difference is that so many many folks do not understand. And any reading in the P&P forum would have answered most of the questions that were asked in this thread. 

The P&P industry has major price fixing starting at the top with the gooberment. They set the rate on most every thing. Then it runs down hill.

In TRADITIONAL contracting work you might get three bids to clean up a property.
BPWY gives his price as X to clean up and details it all out. TNT gives his, Kent gives his. The customer opens the bids, picks one he likes and when the job is done pays the agreed upon price.
It would be nice if P&P worked that way! Here they get bids, all prices are subject to be cut by any body in the process back at the nationals. Then you wait 30 to 120 days for payment and HOPE they didn't mess up in that area. Former poster Fremont has many stories about charge backs being issued against contractor's work 2 and 3 years after it was completed. 

I could type for an hour and still not cover all the ways that P&P is unlike any other type of contracting work out there.


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## Guest

Any one knows any vendor in the Atlanta ga area


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## Guest

BPWY said:


> YOU guys asked how P&P is different


No....I didn't. I asked for you to tell me what I don't know, since this is what is thrown in our face all the time. Well, I want to know....what exactly do I not understand? Still, the ONLY thing I do not understand is why one continues to work in this industry if it is that bad. If you like it, great. Not a damn thing to bitch about, correct? If not, then get out.



BPWY said:


> Was this in the contract?? Not that I know of.


Then why give the example if you have NO idea if it's in the contract or not? Say for example that it is. Who's problem is this? You guys are making it out to be theirs, when if the the statement is true, then it would be your problem.

The difference is that you guys are giving examples left and right and labeling it a pp issue and that it has NOTHING to do with any other part of construction when one can apply BUSINESS MANAGEMENT principles on the issues. The topics may change, but the application is the same. And round and round we go, because the response is "no...it's different...you just don't understand because you're not in the pp industry" 

I don't have to be. I'm a pretty empathetic guy. I don't do drywall, roofing, plumbing, electrical...and so on but not once have I ever not communicated with any trade and not understood what they need, what they go through, what they have to have in order to make their job work.


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## Guest

A&Gproperty said:


> Any one knows any vendor in the Atlanta ga area


LOL :laughing: are you serious?


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## Guest

PropPresPro said:


> Exactly!


Who are you talking about? Me?


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## SwiftRes

This conversation is starting to be counter-productive. We are going in loops.

Bottom line:
- Most of the pains are like other industries. Potential for people not to pay, equipment to buy and maintain, capital to manage
- There are a couple of "uniques" as I'm sure there are in every industry. Those are the fact that a couple of small very high volume customers make up a huge amount of a persons business. Therefore they have a bit more control over the contractor. I'm sure contractors from other industries have been in this predicament before with very large commercial work, city work, etc. Second, a lot of pricing is dictated in "guidelines" by the government entity HUD. Last, there are a ton of middlemen that try to get the work and sub it out cheap, and one needs to learn the difference between those companies, and the ones up top.


----------



## BPWY

Kent Whitten said:


> No....I didn't. I asked for you to tell me what I don't know, since this is what is thrown in our face all the time. Well, I want to know....what exactly do I not understand? Still, the ONLY thing I do not understand is why one continues to work in this industry if it is that bad. If you like it, great. Not a damn thing to bitch about, correct? If not, then get out.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why give the example if you have NO idea if it's in the contract or not? Say for example that it is. Who's problem is this? You guys are making it out to be theirs, when if the the statement is true, then it would be your problem.
> 
> The difference is that you guys are giving examples left and right and labeling it a pp issue and that it has NOTHING to do with any other part of construction when one can apply BUSINESS MANAGEMENT principles on the issues. The topics may change, but the application is the same. And round and round we go, because the response is "no...it's different...you just don't understand because you're not in the pp industry"
> 
> I don't have to be. I'm a pretty empathetic guy. I don't do drywall, roofing, plumbing, electrical...and so on but not once have I ever not communicated with any trade and not understood what they need, what they go through, what they have to have in order to make their job work.






The fact remains that you do not understand. As pointed out by the repeated attempts to explain it and the counter productive around and around and around we go, like Swift said.

In few other industries does the contractor have as little control over his destiny as P&P.
Like I said yesterday......




BPWY said:


> The P&P business is explained in this next statement.
> 
> 
> The entire industry boils down to this.
> One party is the "screwer" and one party is the "screwee".
> 
> Mutual enjoyment of the process IS NOT part of the equation!




You say just quit. I only do P&P for one company now. Back in the hey day.... close to 10.
Does that answer your comment on "just quit" for me? 
I've got some very attractive grounds maint contracts that have nothing to do with P&P. Its raining or I'd not be here posting on the computer in the middle of the day.

I've also got snow removal contracts with the same companies. It looks like theres a chance of breaking out the snow plow this weekend.
After weeks of 60s and 70s.


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## Guest

Kent Whitten said:


> Who are you talking about? Me?


Oops! Sorry, I remembered your title wrong (it doesn't show up on my CT app on my phone)


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## Tom Stuble

i think what they are saying is its a crappy business..but not that crappy:whistling

hard to tell without pictures though


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## Guest

Though this thread has indeed gone around the racecourse a couple of times, I find it informative. :thumbsup:

It's no earthshaking surprise that PP is markedly different from most other contracting work, and it's edifying to hear some of the explanations of just how it is different. But at the end of the day, the bulk of the posts in this section are much heavier with gloom, doom and cynicism than in any other. 

That's a significant part of the problem we "outsiders" have with what we've been seeing here. This site is intended as a meeting place for professionals, and consequently, unprofessional remarks and behavior should be at a minimum. That has not been the case in recent months.

True professionals should have no problem with understanding what I'm getting at. Those who do, probably aren't as professional as they would have us believe. :thumbsup:


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## Tom Stuble

hmmm. an acid test:sad:


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## Guest

A&Gproperty said:


> Any one knows any vendor in the Atlanta ga area


Best post of the thread. :blink:

Seriouslythough, I think this has been a good thread. One big knockout, dragout that is actually answering some questions.


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## rselectric1

This thread has absolutely been informative to me also. One of my best friends is in the PP business. He seems to be a little different though. He works directly for several local banks and for the most part keeps busy and has for at least the last 4 years.

I'm guessing that when these banks end up trying to save some money and go with one of these Nationals, he will be pretty much out of luck.

Is that pretty much how it works?


----------



## SwiftRes

For your local banks, they will probably stick with doing what they're doing. For them the management may not be overwhelming to manage a local guy to do the work. For these banks with tens and hundreds of thousands of properties across the country, it makes more sense to outsource to a national P&P company.

Brokers used to manage more of the work than they do today, that is the business that has shrunk some. I don't have any evidence to back it up, but my guess is that local bank work hasn't changed much. Although I am a bit surprised he's been able to keep that busy with local banks, I would guess that there isn't a significant volume there, but they probably pay better. To be honest I've never tried to solicit them here in my area.



rselectric1 said:


> This thread has absolutely been informative to me also. One of my best friends is in the PP business. He seems to be a little different though. He works directly for several local banks and for the most part keeps busy and has for at least the last 4 years.
> 
> I'm guessing that when these banks end up trying to save some money and go with one of these Nationals, he will be pretty much out of luck.
> 
> Is that pretty much how it works?


----------



## david

*hi*

most banks who own hundreds or thousands of properties doesnt contract out to individuals in most cases p+P is only 1 part of the business when dealing with properties,so instead of hiring larry,curly and moe dealing with the headaches they give everything to nationals to deal with which then subs out to smaller companys,whom then sub to other individuals.
yes if you work direct for bank or broker you may make more money but not always have the work,a lot depends on area you live in too.
their is a lot in pP industry one may not understand if they've never been through it...whats the saying dont judge unless you've stood in someones shoes,if not then no you cannot understand it completely.


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## Guest

Here we go... Back to the "you don't understand" crap


----------



## rselectric1

d+jhomeservices said:


> their is a lot in pP industry one may not understand if they've never been through it...whats the saying dont judge unless you've stood in someones shoes,if not then no you cannot understand it completely.


Thanks for answering the question, but not for the patronizing part


----------



## Guest

rselectric1 said:


> This thread has absolutely been informative to me also. One of my best friends is in the PP business. He seems to be a little different though. He works directly for several local banks and for the most part keeps busy and has for at least the last 4 years.
> 
> I'm guessing that when these banks end up trying to save some money and go with one of these Nationals, he will be pretty much out of luck.
> 
> Is that pretty much how it works?


Yep.
I'm pretty much in the same situation as your friend. Local banks and credit unions make up 80% of my clients. 
I doubt the local banks will switch to national service providers, but you never know. . .
If that does happen, well, I was looking for a job when I found this one.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

BPWY said:


> The fact remains that you do not understand.
> 
> We unbderstand what you are explaining, what I don't understand is why you put up with it, and if it's like Swift and the others have said, that in the end it all evens out, then why dwell?
> 
> As pointed out by the repeated attempts to explain it and the counter productive around and around and around we go, like Swift said.
> 
> In few other industries does the contractor have as little control over his destiny as P&P.
> Like I said yesterday......
> 
> They only have as much control as you give them. You are not a slave and have a free choice. This is what I keep saying. If it's that bad, find something else to do.
> 
> You say just quit. I only do P&P for one company now. Back in the hey day.... close to 10.
> Does that answer your comment on "just quit" for me?
> I've got some very attractive grounds maint contracts that have nothing to do with P&P. Its raining or I'd not be here posting on the computer in the middle of the day.
> 
> I've also got snow removal contracts with the same companies. It looks like theres a chance of breaking out the snow plow this weekend.
> After weeks of 60s and 70s.


So you have seen the light! :thumbsup:


----------



## TNTSERVICES

d+jhomeservices said:


> most banks who own hundreds or thousands of properties doesnt contract out to individuals in most cases p+P is only 1 part of the business when dealing with properties,so instead of hiring larry,curly and moe dealing with the headaches they give everything to nationals to deal with which then subs out to smaller companys,whom then sub to other individuals.
> yes if you work direct for bank or broker you may make more money but not always have the work,a lot depends on area you live in too.
> their is a lot in pP industry one may not understand if they've never been through it...whats the saying dont judge unless you've stood in someones shoes,if not then no you cannot understand it completely.


What can't we understand? That has yet to be explained. Just give me a list of the things that we can't understand completely.

I really think that you mean empathize or sympathize completely, not understand.

Waiting for your response...


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## rselectric1

Not to interrupt, but this is something that has been in the works for several months and has finally come to fruition tonight!

http://www.contractortalk.com/f118/introducing-preservationtalk-com-116343/

Please don't misconstrue this as an attempt to push PP contractors away from CT. All are still welcome here too.

Check it out! :thumbsup:


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## TNTSERVICES

rselectric1 said:


> Not to interrupt, but this is something that has been in the works for several months and has finally come to fruition tonight!
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f118/introducing-preservationtalk-com-116343/
> 
> Please don't misconstrue this as an attempt to push PP contractors away from CT. All are still welcome here too.
> 
> Check it out! :thumbsup:


Can I MOD it? :laughing:


----------



## rselectric1

TNTSERVICES said:


> Can I MOD it? :laughing:


I have a bit of an "in" and I do know that Nathan is looking for some suggestions with regard to categories, etc. (and maybe a couple mods IN THE PP BUSINESS-so not you Rob) to make his new forum a comfy place for the PP contractors.

My only suggestion to our PP contractors here is to get involved there and make it your own. The mods there have not been chosen yet since it's brand new, but a bit of involvement will show who is capable and interested. :thumbsup:


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## RichR

TNTSERVICES said:


> Can I MOD it? :laughing:


Dude you got way too much free time on your hands.


----------



## TNTSERVICES

rselectric1 said:


> I have a bit of an "in" and I do know that Nathan is looking for some suggestions with regard to categories, etc. (and maybe a couple mods IN THE PP BUSINESS-so not you Rob) to make his new forum a comfy place for the PP contractors.
> 
> My only suggestion to our PP contractors here is to get involved there and make it your own. The mods there have not been chosen yet since it's brand new, but a bit of involvement will show who is capable and interested. :thumbsup:


I was really hoping to see how many P&P guys would comment...:laughing:



RichR said:


> Dude you got way too much free time on your hands.


I have very little free time on my hands. But the time I have is spent here. I am already at the computer doing paper work, calls and quotes, so I use this as a relaxer between those items.


----------



## Guest

Okay so for me to try to grasp...

One big problem is that the big companies who are awarded the work can basically dictate what you make and if you don't agree, they don't send you the work?

Second problem is their are too many hands in the pot. Unless you're the first sub, you have a hard time making money?

Thirdly, since the level of entry is low (don't worry, my chosen industry is too) there will always be guys ruining the business and coming and going?

It would seem the successful PP guys really could find another line of work if they wanted so there must be decent money somewhere along the lines.

On the bitching thing, we all do it whether it be about the industry itself, customers, employees, suppliers but it's usually never because we continue to lose money on jobs and keep allowing it to happen.


----------



## Guest

BamBamm5144 said:


> Okay so for me to try to grasp...
> 
> One big problem is that the big companies who are awarded the work can basically dictate what you make and if you don't agree, they don't send you the work?
> 
> Second problem is their are too many hands in the pot. Unless you're the first sub, you have a hard time making money?
> 
> Thirdly, since the level of entry is low (don't worry, my chosen industry is too) there will always be guys ruining the business and coming and going?
> 
> It would seem the successful PP guys really could find another line of work if they wanted so there must be decent money somewhere along the lines.
> 
> On the bitching thing, we all do it whether it be about the industry itself, customers, employees, suppliers but it's usually never because we continue to lose money on jobs and keep allowing it to happen.


I know you and TNT are going to miss those fellas.


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## TNTSERVICES

ohiohomedoctor said:


> I know you and TNT are going to miss those fellas.


Nah, I am joining their Forum and finding a topic to whine and bitch about something in. :laughing:

Just a joke P&P guys!


----------



## Guest

TNTSERVICES said:


> Nah, I am joining their Forum and finding a topic to whine and bitch about something in. :laughing:
> 
> Just a joke P&P guys!


Ouch, perhaps how crappy deciding what to charge is..


----------



## TNTSERVICES

ohiohomedoctor said:


> Ouch, perhaps how crappy deciding what to charge is..


Or the fact that Matt never called me and left the onus on me and I failed as miserably as he did!


----------



## Guest

TNTSERVICES said:


> Or the fact that Matt never called me and left the onus on me and I failed as miserably as he did!


Im in, lets do it. The P&P guys were entertaining for sure. Some of those guys make huge $$$ too.


----------



## Guest

I believe this thread has served its purpose. Closed.


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## rselectric1

I think this thread has run it's course. I am going to register over there only to say hi and congrats on the new forum. (Don't worry PP guys, I won't contribute or stay around :laughing

I hope that many of our regular PP contractors will still hang around here too.

I am going to close this thread. Any complaints about this decision, please hit the report button with your comments.


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## rselectric1

Tin, while I was typing you were closing LOL. We must think alike!


----------

