# How have you guys been handling lead regs



## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

specifically 40 CFR Part 745 on bids. I have been able to avoid any conflicts so far, through denying bids on older houses, and a bit of luck. But, sooner or later it's going to hit the fan. I am a RRP certified renovator, and I have a firm cert also. but, how do you handle the bid. Do you charge for testing up front, or do you add all the cost of compliance right on. It seems like a crappy situation all around. I would like to give them the option for up front testing, but that likely won't fly. Any ideas or experience would be appreciated.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

Ohnojim said:


> specifically 40 CFR Part 745 on bids. I have been able to avoid any conflicts so far, through denying bids on older houses, and a bit of luck. But, sooner or later it's going to hit the fan. I am a RRP certified renovator, and I have a firm cert also. but, how do you handle the bid. Do you charge for testing up front, or do you add all the cost of compliance right on. It seems like a crappy situation all around. I would like to give them the option for up front testing, but that likely won't fly. Any ideas or experience would be appreciated.


I'm also certified. Actually took my refresher course 3 weeks ago.

DISCLAIMER: WI is a non EPA lead state. Our regulations are handled through the WI department of health and safety. As such, this may or may not apply to you.

Any way, with that being said, I can not test for lead unless I am specifically asked to do so. I have to assume it is present on all pre1978 homes and follow protocols. 

This was put in place for all future disclosures as it could potentially negatively impact the property value. If you test for lead, and it comes back positive, that must be disclosed on the sale of the property every time going forward, unless it has been completely abated and passed a clearance test.

Everyone around here doesn't want to know. Then they can use the disclaimer "This house was constructed prior to 1978 and the seller has no knowledge of lead-based paint and/or lead based paint hazards." People tend to feel better about that than the other disclaimer "This house was constructed prior to 1978 and the seller has knowledge of lead-based paint and/or lead based paint hazards are present."

I have three rentals built before 1978, that I won't test myself. All repairs are done with RRP protocols. That way when I sell them, I don't really know if lead exists and don't have to disclose anything.

I'd personally like to see regulation that requires all homes built prior to 1978 be tested when they are sold or when a building permit is pulled for renovation. It'd make my job a lot easier (and more profitable) as a contractor. I think it would also make enforcement easier.

Can you imagine how much the value on these shacks would drop if the banks, HUD, FNMA, etc. had to disclose the lead, mold or asbestos is present? Hence ignoring lead and asbestos and calling mold discoloration.:whistling2:


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

I charge a 30.00 flat fee. to lead test each area needed to comply and get them back on repair work only. Then i bid the repairs to comply with lead removal and get them back.

Only FHA though. and only on must needed repairs, soffit, fascia, wood siding. Painted drywall.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I guess the best thing is to just add the costs*

and shut up about it. Got it. I sort of figured it but, sometimes I feel I need to justify additional costs. If they ask, I will do it on the phone.


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

Here is a place where a detailed bid might help. Explaining the law, extra steps and material involved, etc. 

I would guess, that they'll just keep looking for bids until they find someone who isn't in knowledgeable about the RRP regulations and will do the work cheap. Kind of like the thread about 150' of plumbing being replaced for $250.......


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*i have been getting a lot of service error bids*



BRADSConst said:


> Here is a place where a detailed bid might help. Explaining the law, extra steps and material involved, etc.
> 
> I would guess, that they'll just keep looking for bids until they find someone who isn't in knowledgeable about the RRP regulations and will do the work cheap. Kind of like the thread about 150' of plumbing being replaced for $250.......


I have been pricing them high and getting them. I don't want them, but neither does anyone else, so I'm running with it.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I'm going with $30 a swab.*



Zuse said:


> I charge a 30.00 flat fee. to lead test each area needed to comply and get them back on repair work only. Then i bid the repairs to comply with lead removal and get them back.
> 
> Only FHA though. and only on must needed repairs, soffit, fascia, wood siding. Painted drywall.



And a base fee.


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## Zuse (Nov 17, 2012)

Ohnojim said:


> And a base fee.


The flat 30 bucks from what Ive been told is the going rate per area tested, the discount only comes into play when the lead repair bids are approved.

Not many contractors are approved to remove lead so most of my bids com back. Im approved to remove and dispose of lead but i dont like doing the work. I bid the repairs vary high, and like i said before FHA is the only ones Ive seen come back so far, approved bid wise.

Most disclaimers on sold properties now have the lead disclaimers attached when they are sold as is condition which allows the banks off the hook and reduces repair payouts.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I asked for a bid order*



Zuse said:


> The flat 30 bucks from what Ive been told is the going rate per area tested, the discount only comes into play when the lead repair bids are approved.
> 
> Not many contractors are approved to remove lead so most of my bids com back. Im approved to remove and dispose of lead but i dont like doing the work. I bid the repairs vary high, and like i said before FHA is the only ones Ive seen come back so far, approved bid wise.
> 
> Most disclaimers on sold properties now have the lead disclaimers attached when they are sold as is condition which allows the banks off the hook and reduces repair payouts.


and outlined my pricing, it came back right away. The EPA has been cracking down around here, even on small companies. On private work you can always have the homeowner do the demo, and you're in the clear. With bank work, I keep it as squeaky clean as I can. I even went for my WRT, and applied microbial during the off season this year. When there is an issue, and I'm the only one in the courtroom with the right paperwork we can sing my tune. The disclosure issue was a concern, but it really isn't my problem, as long as I go by the book. Of course, I still don't want to ruffle any feather needlessly.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

I inform client they need a certified company to test and remediate. Not enough lead work here to justify the cost of Pollution Liability Insurance. There are a couple painting contractors in the valley that take care of any of these for me IF the client is willing to pay......


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> I inform client they need a certified company to test and remediate. Not enough lead work here to justify the cost of Pollution Liability Insurance. There are a couple painting contractors in the valley that take care of any of these for me IF the client is willing to pay......


I don't need Pollution liability (I don't think you do either) when doing RRP renovations like window replacements. For abatement projects, then Pollution Liability comes into play. 

The big key is what is the intent. If the intent is to remove and abate the lead, then Pollution Liability. If the intent is to replace the window, GL covers that.

The crack down I've been hearing about is the lack of paperwork (go figure). If you don't have the signed form stating you gave them a Renovate Right packet, its a $1000 fine. If you test and don't provide a report, another $1000. If you don't provide a statement of cleaning verification, another $1000. Lately I've been having third party clearance and they give both myself and the HO a copy of the report. These are for larger projects so I can justify the cost, for just one window replacement, a clearance test is cost prohibitive.


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*You must follow the EPA RRP rules if you*



mtmtnman said:


> I inform client they need a certified company to test and remediate. Not enough lead work here to justify the cost of Pollution Liability Insurance. There are a couple painting contractors in the valley that take care of any of these for me IF the client is willing to pay......


do any work that disturbs more than 6 sq, ft. in homes built before 1978. I sugjest you get your RRP cert. and keep your records. BRADSconst outlined it correctly. You need to have this cert to do just about anything on a home built before 1978. It is not lead remediation work, it is any work that involves disturbing more than 6 sq, ft. The fines are high, and they have stopped issuing warnings, they can ask for your RRP records pretty far back and fine you retroactively. I forget exactly how long. I must have dozed off during that part, but I think it is three years. Be careful. The class is fairly cheap,and one day.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

99.9% of and remodeling project i have done in the last couple years are less than 20 years old.......:thumbup:


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

mtmtnman said:


> 99.9% of and remodeling project i have done in the last couple years are less than 20 years old.......:thumbup:


Well of course silly! If you just did the projects in the last couple years, they can't be more than 20 years old.......:lol::lol::lol:


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## BRADSConst (Oct 2, 2012)

Ohnojim said:


> they can ask for your RRP records pretty far back and fine you retroactively. I forget exactly how long. I must have dozed off during that part, but I think it is three years. Be careful. The class is fairly cheap,and one day.


 Correct. Behind the Cheddar curtain, we must keep all records for three years and you need to be able to provide them when asked. I don't know if EPA states have the same requirement though.


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## mtmtnman (May 1, 2012)

BRADSConst said:


> Well of course silly! If you just did the projects in the last couple years, they can't be more than 20 years old.......:lol::lol::lol:




Smarty pants! Put it this way, I don't work on old houses...........
:thumbsup:


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## Ohnojim (Mar 25, 2013)

*I will charge enough to go by the rules.*



mtmtnman said:


> Smarty pants! Put it this way, I don't work on old houses...........
> :thumbsup:


The more people out too smart to work on old houses the better.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Brad,

If you "change a window" with the "intent" of a window replacement and that window leaks causing damage then your General Liability policy covers the loss BUT If you do that same window and that house is pre-78 and that window doesn't leak BUT the window ledge or trim was left that had lead and kid chews on it and they trace it back to your window THEN your General Liability will NOT cover you.....that is for a Pollution Liability Policy.


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## P3+ (Aug 16, 2012)

LOL....you and I obviously had the same Lead instructor (Lauri R). You get the Cheerio feeding trough story too? 





Wannabe said:


> Brad,
> 
> If you "change a window" with the "intent" of a window replacement and that window leaks causing damage then your General Liability policy covers the loss BUT If you do that same window and that house is pre-78 and that window doesn't leak BUT the window ledge or trim was left that had lead and kid chews on it and they trace it back to your window THEN your General Liability will NOT cover you.....that is for a Pollution Liability Policy.


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## Wannabe (Oct 1, 2012)

Lol. Nope just 3 decades of owning Insurance Agencies and actually had clients face this problem. In fact there is a past forum member who got "the papers" last year from a Rental he owned and remodeled 14 (yes FOURTEEN) years ago and the "new" owners children tested high lead at their school physicals so a blood sucking Atty has attacked.


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